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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, I can't emphasize this enough.

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Speaker 3: Getting parenting right is not about habits, It's about our heart.

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Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 2: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Happy Family's Podcast. I'm doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 3: Be laughing at you.

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Speaker 2: Just went totally against everything I said I did.

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Speaker 3: As soon as I opened the mic, something different came

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Speaker 3: out to what you're expecting. I'm here with Kylie, who

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Speaker 3: I do listen to and take counsel from, an influence

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Speaker 3: from all the time, really all the time today, founder

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Speaker 3: of Happy Families dot com. Do I might have already

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Speaker 3: said that, And Kylie, you've had some insights just over

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Speaker 3: the last few days as you've been doing story time

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Speaker 3: with our seven year old.

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Speaker 2: Storytime is literally like one of my favorite times of day.

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Speaker 2: I just love that slower pace and being able to

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Speaker 2: snuggle in together and reconnect.

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Speaker 1: At least you used to.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you know, I used to love reading books

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Speaker 2: like Edward the EMU was sick of the zoo. There

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Speaker 2: was nowhere to go, there was nothing to do when

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Speaker 2: compared to the seals that live right next door while

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Speaker 2: being an EMU was frankly a bore. That's one of

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Speaker 2: my favorite stories. Do you know what she's getting me

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Speaker 2: to read these days?

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Speaker 1: Share it.

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Speaker 3: The body of.

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Speaker 2: An insect is divided into three parts. The headhouses the

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Speaker 2: brain and supports the eyes, feelers, and mouth parts. All

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Speaker 2: insects have six legs on their thorax, and many have wings.

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Speaker 2: The abdomen contains the organs for digestion and reproduction.

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Speaker 3: You're saying that you're not enjoying reading stories with our

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Speaker 3: seven year old anymore because it's more of a science.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't have the same ring to it. Let's just

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Speaker 2: put it that way. And she is just engrossed and

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Speaker 2: all of these information books and she wants to know

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Speaker 2: every detail about everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Has that working for you?

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Speaker 3: As storytime still is relaxing, You're still feeling as connected

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Speaker 3: as you used to.

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Speaker 2: There's some really big words and there I have to

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Speaker 2: work my way up around. But she just loves it,

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Speaker 2: and so as a result I will learn to love it.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Yet, today we're talking about something really interesting, something

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Speaker 3: that I think is going to be hopefully a lot

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Speaker 3: of fun. We're talking about when my techniques, my parenting

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Speaker 3: techniques that I share with people all the time, don't work.

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Speaker 2: You mean they don't work.

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Speaker 1: Well, No, they do. They do. They do. Let me

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Speaker 1: be really clear. They do.

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Speaker 3: But a friend of a friend of ours, David, sent

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Speaker 3: me a text message the other day, and he is

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Speaker 3: a good mate, and he has given us permission to

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Speaker 3: share his experience on the podcast. But David was in

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Speaker 3: the in the kitchen when the children were having an

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Speaker 3: interaction shall we call it with one another of those interactions,

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Speaker 3: and he decided to try one of my parenting techniques

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Speaker 3: and all he said, he sent me a video of it,

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Speaker 3: and underneath it he said, tried your technique, didn't work.

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Speaker 1: Let me share this show.

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Speaker 4: The sounds like you guys are having a hard time.

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Speaker 4: Would you like me to help? How are you feeling

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Speaker 4: at the moment?

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Speaker 1: What are you laughing at?

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Speaker 2: David sounded so engrossed in it, didn't he There's so

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Speaker 2: much passion in his voice as he asked each to

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Speaker 2: those questions.

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Speaker 3: So, firstly, David, thanks for giving us permission to share

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Speaker 3: your parenting moment. I was going to say fail, but

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Speaker 3: we'll just call it a moment for now. We'll dissect

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Speaker 3: it in a minute. And when you listen to that though,

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Speaker 3: so David's obviously he's given me a hard time because

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Speaker 3: my parenting strategy didn't work. Because something that I say

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Speaker 3: all the time is that when the kids are having

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Speaker 3: a hard time, just gently intervene. So you guys seem

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Speaker 3: to be having a rough time, what can I do

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Speaker 3: to help? How can I help or how are things

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Speaker 3: feeling right now? But when you listen to David do that, Kylie,

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Speaker 3: can you think of any reasons that my parenting technique

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Speaker 3: might not have worked in that instance? I mean, let's

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Speaker 3: just quiz you and see if you can deconstruct it.

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Speaker 3: And the reason that I'm doing this, by the way,

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Speaker 3: is because we do tend to learn best when we're

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Speaker 3: not listening to or participating in something with an expert,

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Speaker 3: but with somebody who's kind of a bit like us,

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Speaker 3: when we get to see their mistakes, we get better

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Speaker 3: at it. If I want to become a better motorcycle racer,

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Speaker 3: not that I've ride motorcycles, of course, but if I

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Speaker 3: were watching a GP Formula one motorcyclist, I don't even

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Speaker 3: know what they call that thing was around the track.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to learn much because they're just so

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Speaker 3: far advanced compared to where I would be on a motorbike.

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Speaker 3: I need to watch somebody who doesn't know very much,

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Speaker 3: but just a bit more than me. So as you

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Speaker 3: listen to David's interaction with his kids, what stood out

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Speaker 3: to you well.

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Speaker 2: First and foremost his tone when you said the words

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Speaker 2: I melted. Maybe that's because I'm biased, but there was

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Speaker 2: a gen in this to the things that you were saying,

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Speaker 2: Whereas it felt like David was like, oh, I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to give this a go because the expert told

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Speaker 2: me I should, but I don't believe it's going to work.

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Speaker 3: And this is the critical thing where having a script.

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Speaker 3: This is why I actually don't like giving people scripts.

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Speaker 3: I've started doing it because people beg me for what

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Speaker 3: do I say?

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Speaker 1: What do I do?

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Speaker 3: But I can't emphasize this enough. Getting parenting right is

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Speaker 3: not about habits. It's about our heart and it's not

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Speaker 3: about getting the words right, right right, it's three right,

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Speaker 3: right right, It's not about that at all.

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Speaker 1: It's about our hearts.

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Speaker 3: And as you've pointed out, there's not a lot of

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Speaker 3: heart in what David's saying. He's shouting form across the room. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: I'm answering the question, what else did you notice?

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Speaker 2: Well, he was shouting from across the room, shouting to

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Speaker 2: just room okay, and what else. At no point did

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Speaker 2: he actually engage with the children.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so he was kind of shouting over the top

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Speaker 3: of them from a different room. There's no eye contact,

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Speaker 3: there's no there's no humanity in it. It's literally just

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Speaker 3: It's like when you ring a call center and you

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Speaker 3: get this person on the other line. They pick up

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Speaker 3: the phone and they say, that must be very hard

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Speaker 3: for you. I'm so sorry for you.

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Speaker 1: That kind of thing. I heard a comedian recently.

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Speaker 3: His wife called a call center and she said, I've

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Speaker 3: just received a letter from you, my insurer, and you're

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Speaker 3: saying that my husband is dead.

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Speaker 1: He's not dead.

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Speaker 3: And the lady on the other end of the line

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Speaker 3: of the call center said, I'm so sorry, he's not dead. So,

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Speaker 3: when you've got a script, it doesn't always work because

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Speaker 3: the context is kind of everything, and we've got to

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Speaker 3: we got to kind of be in the moment. So

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Speaker 3: what David's done is he's called across the room. There's

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Speaker 3: no feeling, there's no heart, He's just following the script.

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Speaker 3: He's not connecting with the kids.

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Speaker 2: Not only is he not just following, he's just following

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Speaker 2: the script, but he actually doesn't believe it's going to work.

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Speaker 3: You can kind of hear it in his voice. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and in fairness to David, I mean, he was kind

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Speaker 3: of just giving me a hard time. He just wanted

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Speaker 3: to shove it back at me and say, yeah, come on,

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Speaker 3: mister Parring expert, what am I supposed to do now?

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Speaker 2: But it kind of goes back to that whole heart thing,

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Speaker 2: doesn't it. It's like, what is the intent of our heart?

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Speaker 2: Are we just we're doing this because our spouse thinks that,

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Speaker 2: you know, we need to give things a go, we

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Speaker 2: want to change things up, or do we actually care

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Speaker 2: about what's happening in our space right now?

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Speaker 3: So if we're going to get this right, if our

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Speaker 3: kids are fighting, or if our children are having a

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Speaker 3: hard time, big emotions, whatever it is, and we're trying

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Speaker 3: our very best not to explode, we want to explore

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Speaker 3: and we want to help them.

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Speaker 1: To figure it out. There's got to be a better way. David.

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Speaker 3: I'm so sorry now that we've completely demolished your parenting.

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Speaker 3: We're going to come back after the break and talk

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Speaker 3: about how we can get this right.

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Speaker 2: We call this constructive criticism, don't.

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Speaker 1: We And right in fact, right after break there is

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Speaker 1: more to the story.

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Speaker 3: David did message me shortly afterwards and shared a little

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Speaker 3: bit more that changes everything completely.

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Speaker 1: Going to tell you what that is in just a second.

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Speaker 1: It's a Happy Family's podcast for a happier family.

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Speaker 2: Try a Happy Families membership, because a happy family doesn't

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Speaker 2: just happen.

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Speaker 3: Details at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Family's podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we

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Speaker 2: are dissecting David's parenting.

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Speaker 3: We're giving you answers now because your time poor. So

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Speaker 3: what do you do when the kids are fighting and

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Speaker 3: you know that you're supposed to intervene and you've got

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Speaker 3: the doctor justin calls on script but it's kind of

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Speaker 3: not working for whatever reason.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but are we supposed to intervene?

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Speaker 1: Huh? Really interesting.

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Speaker 3: I think that the very best parents have the they

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Speaker 3: have a level of discernment where they know when to

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Speaker 3: step in and they know when to step out.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's really hard when you're in the same space,

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Speaker 2: and you can hear at tension or contention. It's really

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Speaker 2: hard to not want to just scale it down really quickly,

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Speaker 2: fix the problem.

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Speaker 1: Your kids.

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Speaker 3: You love them, They're supposed to love each other, and

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Speaker 3: everyone wants peace and quiet, especially at about six o'clock

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Speaker 3: at night when it's that time.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's tired.

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Speaker 3: So knowing when to step in and step out is

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Speaker 3: the critical thing, I think. And in that situation, because

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Speaker 3: they were just having an argument about a TV show,

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Speaker 3: I would probably actually say just step out, don't don't

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Speaker 3: get involved.

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Speaker 1: No one's getting hurt.

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Speaker 2: Obviously I couldn't see the video, but there were moments

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Speaker 2: where there was dead space where the kids were kind

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Speaker 2: of like, I've got to think of another argument to

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Speaker 2: get my point across.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've already seen. What was this movie that were

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Speaker 1: talking about.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to watch the ship at all. I

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Speaker 3: think that was the teenager that was saying that he

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Speaker 3: was one with the deeper voice. So knowing when to

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Speaker 3: step in and when to step out. Typically when somebody

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Speaker 3: crosses a line in terms of making threats, saying things

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Speaker 3: that are just completely inappropriate and unkind, or when somebody

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Speaker 3: looks like they're in danger of being hurt. That's that's

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Speaker 3: when I recommend we intervene. But for the most part,

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Speaker 3: our kids have got to figure this stuff out. And

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Speaker 3: I mentioned that David did have more to the story,

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Speaker 3: and I reckon, it's probably worth sharing it. I messaged

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Speaker 3: him back and laughed at his feeble attempt at implementing

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Speaker 3: the strategy that I shared, and then he said they

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Speaker 3: worked it out on their own.

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Speaker 1: In the end, they're all happy now, which kind of

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Speaker 1: highlights the point.

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Speaker 3: We don't have to fix everything as parents. We feel

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Speaker 3: like we're supposed to be the police, the prosecutor, and

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Speaker 3: the preacher. What I mean by that is that the

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Speaker 3: police that's the one who's stepping in and breaking it

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Speaker 3: away in it all up. The prosecutor, this is where

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Speaker 3: we start to work out who's right and who's wrong

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Speaker 3: and send someone to their bedrooms. And the preacher that's

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Speaker 3: when we step into lecture mode and we say, right,

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Speaker 3: that's it.

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Speaker 1: You need to learn. You've got to be nice to

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Speaker 1: each other.

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Speaker 3: And we say all those things that we swore we

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Speaker 3: would never say when our parents were saying it to us,

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Speaker 3: and now we're repeating it to the next generation.

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Speaker 2: Well, last week we had a really good discussion about

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Speaker 2: this in book club reading your book Ten Things that

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Speaker 2: Every Parent Should Know, and we talked about this whole

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Speaker 2: idea of sibling rivalry.

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Speaker 1: I've got to interrupt you.

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Speaker 3: My book is called Ten Things Every Parent Needs to Know. Ohs,

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Speaker 3: it's not what every parent should know needs to know.

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Speaker 3: I just wanted to be clear about that because it

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Speaker 3: is my book that you're quoting to me right now.

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Speaker 3: By the way, book club happens every Wednesday night for

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Speaker 3: four weeks every term for our Happy Families members. So

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Speaker 3: you've got a bunch of people who are having a

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Speaker 3: conversation with you about ten things every parent needs to.

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Speaker 1: Know, needs to know because they need need to know it,

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Speaker 1: they need it. And what we were talking about, we

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Speaker 1: were talking.

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Speaker 2: About the vicious circle. This is something that we've done

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Speaker 2: a lot in our home and it really helps because

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Speaker 2: sometimes the kids are going to work it out, but

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Speaker 2: sometimes they're just not. So you want to talk us

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Speaker 2: through what that vicious circle looks like?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very very briefly, because it's kind of complicated and

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Speaker 3: you sort of need the model to work it out.

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Speaker 3: But imagine if you've got a piece of paper at

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Speaker 3: the top of the piece of paper.

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Speaker 1: You draw a box and.

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Speaker 3: You're right, what they did? You look at one of

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Speaker 3: the kids and say, well, what do they do? And

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Speaker 3: this is their opportunity to saying, Oh, they yelled at me,

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Speaker 3: and they called me a name, and they hit me,

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Speaker 3: and they took my toy and they stood in front

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Speaker 3: of the TV. They get to say all the stuff

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Speaker 3: that their sibling did to them. Then you draw a

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Speaker 3: box down into the right. You're going to draw four

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Speaker 3: boxes in total, one at the top, one at the bottom,

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Speaker 3: one on the left, and one and the right in

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Speaker 3: the middle. And so the second one is down on

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Speaker 3: the right hand margin. And that's how I felt. So

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Speaker 3: you said to your child, well how did you feel?

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Speaker 3: And I felt aggrieved, I felt vulnerable. I felt they're

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Speaker 3: actually not going to.

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Speaker 2: Use those say those are some big words for my

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Speaker 2: five year old.

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Speaker 3: Although I remember doing this with our seven and ten

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Speaker 3: year old a few years ago, children four and five

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Speaker 3: and our seven year old Lily, she was seven at

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Speaker 3: the time. She looked at me and said, had you

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Speaker 3: feel when and he did that to you? And he

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Speaker 3: was ten. Lily looked at me with this glint in

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Speaker 3: her seven year old eye and said, vengeful.

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Speaker 1: Great word, great word. I was so proud of her.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I wasn't very happy that she got bengeful,

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Speaker 3: but I was like, yeah, you know how you were feeling?

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Speaker 1: Good?

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Speaker 3: Were And so then at the bottom we after they've

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Speaker 3: told us how they feel, we say, well, what did

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Speaker 3: you do? When we draw another box there, what I did?

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Speaker 3: So the three boxes so far, what they did, how

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Speaker 3: I felt, what I did.

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Speaker 2: And do you find in that spot when you asked

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Speaker 2: them what they did that they're not as detailed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because they all of a sudden have to

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Speaker 3: own their part in this conflict.

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Speaker 2: So they'll give you every single detail of what someone

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Speaker 2: else has done, but when it gets to them, they'll

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Speaker 2: just kind of say, well, I tapped her on the shoulder.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: I pretended to kick her and I might have accidentally

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Speaker 3: just gotten her that kind of thing. And I usually

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Speaker 3: do it in front of both siblings, so I'll look

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Speaker 3: at the other one and say is this accurate? Is

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Speaker 3: there anything that she's missed? So they get the chance

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Speaker 3: to really take responsibility, ownership, be accountable for their behavior.

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Speaker 1: And then the last question.

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Speaker 3: Is the most important one. So this is the one

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Speaker 3: that's in the middle on the left hand side and

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Speaker 3: the left hand margin. It's how they felt. So I'm

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Speaker 3: talking to the one who looks like they're the victim,

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Speaker 3: and I'm asking the victim, what did the aggressor do?

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Speaker 3: How did it make you feel? Now let's turn the tables.

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Speaker 1: What did you do?

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Speaker 3: And then how did the aggressor feel when you did

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Speaker 3: that to them? And this requires empathy, this requires perspective taking.

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Speaker 3: They've actually got to acknowledge that in being the victim

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Speaker 3: initially their counter attack has turned them into the perpetrator,

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Speaker 3: the aggressor. And then I draw arrows between those four

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Speaker 3: boxes so that it creates a circle, and it becomes

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Speaker 3: what I call a vicious circle, because once that initial

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Speaker 3: aggressor has become the victim, what do they do? Will

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Speaker 3: they act out again? And this thing just keeps on

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Speaker 3: going around and around and around. So that's the vicious

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Speaker 3: circle in two minutes or less.

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Speaker 2: So when you don't have that vicious circle and that model,

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Speaker 2: what you end up with this, he said, she said,

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Speaker 2: and you just keep going back and forth and you

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Speaker 2: don't get anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Agony.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Whereas this actually allows our kids to actually

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Speaker 2: see where they are responsible pretty much and take accountability

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Speaker 2: for what they're doing while acknowledging what's being done and

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Speaker 2: how they felt about it.

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Speaker 3: But remember, this is the conversation that you have when

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Speaker 3: everyone's calm down afterwards.

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Speaker 2: So David couldn't have gone in if this situation didn't

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Speaker 2: get better in quickly. He wouldn't be able to go

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Speaker 2: in and just have that conversation with them while they

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Speaker 2: were still all emotional.

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Speaker 3: No, because high emotions low intelligence. So in a nutshell,

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Speaker 3: the take our messages this, David, you blew it. He's

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Speaker 3: got it all wrong because you were doing it as

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Speaker 3: a script. You were doing it as a habit. You

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Speaker 3: weren't doing it from your heart. We need to make

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Speaker 3: sure we've got our kids.

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Speaker 2: We can't wait for your next video though.

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Speaker 3: We need to make sure that we've got our kids

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Speaker 3: eye contact. We need to engage with them in a

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Speaker 3: way that shows that we're trying to actually connect and

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Speaker 3: work things out together. And then ideally we don't step

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Speaker 3: in unless we really have to. We're careful about when

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Speaker 3: we step in. We try to stay out of it

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Speaker 3: as much as possible. I like to call it sort

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Speaker 3: of this benign neglect. It's not a harmful sort of neglect.

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Speaker 3: It's like, you guys will figure it out, and I'm

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Speaker 3: here just in case, and then we step in we

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Speaker 3: have to and then later on we sit down.

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Speaker 1: And we go through the vicious circle. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to go through it all the time.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of taxing, there's a lot to it, but

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Speaker 3: you want to do it when emotions are low. That's

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Speaker 3: the real take home message, I'd say.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things that I've noticed over

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Speaker 2: the years with each of the kids is at different

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Speaker 2: times when we've actually noticed that there's been conflict through

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Speaker 2: the day, but they've been able to resolve it together,

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Speaker 2: having a conversation with them at the end of the

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Speaker 2: day and just acknowledging how they worked through that, and

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Speaker 2: how proud you are of the fact that they were

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Speaker 2: able to do those things in a way that left

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Speaker 2: everybody feeling whole.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: For our Happy Families members, we've actually got a couple

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Speaker 3: of really strong webinars about how to work through that

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Speaker 3: vicious circle and how to deal with challenges with siblings.

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Speaker 3: That's in the premium membership. You can go back through

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Speaker 3: the webinar archive and check them out. And the book

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Speaker 3: that we're talking about is ten Things Every Parent needs

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Speaker 3: to Know.

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Speaker 1: All of our.

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Speaker 3: Happiness needs to just putting it out there.

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Speaker 1: I got it right, I know you did.

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Speaker 2: I'm just emphasizing your words.

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Speaker 1: It needs to know Ten Things every parent needs to know.

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Speaker 1: That's the book.

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Speaker 3: You can get it online everywhere, and if you're a

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Speaker 3: Happy Family's member, you can participate in book club on

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Speaker 3: Wednesday night for week three of Ten Things Every Parent Needs.

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Speaker 1: We really hope you've enjoyed the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Hope that it's helpful when it comes to dealing with

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Speaker 3: the challenges that kids present to us. David, thanks for

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Speaker 3: being such a good sport about it. The Happy Family's

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Speaker 3: podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media, with

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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce, our executive producer. If you'd like more info

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Speaker 3: about making your family happier, jump online to Happy Families

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Speaker 3: dot com dot a