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Speaker 1: No our.

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Speaker 2: A group of twenty one organizations have signed an open

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Speaker 2: letter condemning the Northern Territory government's law and order policies,

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Speaker 2: including the OC spray trial. Now, Victims of Crime met

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Speaker 2: Bishop Charles Gougi and Indigenous justice advocate Thomas Mayo are

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Speaker 2: among those that signed this letter, calling for the COLP

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Speaker 2: to implement evidence based and indigenous lead approaches to community safety.

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Speaker 2: The letter also raises concerns about police, public safety officers

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Speaker 2: patrolling public housing and transport, claiming it endangers marginalized Territorians.

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Speaker 2: Now joining us on the line to talk more about

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Speaker 2: this is Thomas Mayo. Good morning to you, Thomas, Good

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Speaker 2: morning Katie. Now the OC spray rollout happens today. What

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Speaker 2: are your concerns around this.

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Speaker 1: Well, the concerns are they're ignoring the experts that are

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Speaker 1: saying that introducing more weapons into the community will only

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Speaker 1: increase the potential of violence and actually reduces the safety

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Speaker 1: of a range of people. We've seen police express concerns

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Speaker 1: about the readiness of the community to to, you know,

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Speaker 1: undertake this trial. We've seen victims of domestic violence raise

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Speaker 1: concerns about the use of the OC spray being turned

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Speaker 1: on innocent people or being used to control people. And

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Speaker 1: you know, so it's a it's an ignorant approach from

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory. Government ignores experts, ignores people that are

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Speaker 1: vulnerable to violence, and you know, it just makes Territorians

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Speaker 1: less safe.

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Speaker 2: Why do you reckon the rollout of the OC spray

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Speaker 2: here in the Northern Territory could potentially be sort of

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Speaker 2: more dangerous than what it is in Western Australia where

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Speaker 2: it is already available.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's it's still early days as far as the

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Speaker 1: outcomes in Western Australia, but we saw the same concerns

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Speaker 1: raised there. There's no evidence that it's making anyone safer

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Speaker 1: in Western Australia. And again this is why the letter

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Speaker 1: calls on evidence based approaches to how we keep the

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Speaker 1: community safe, how we reduce crime, rather than the sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, blaming type policies. The rhetoric you know

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Speaker 1: that you know is somewhat aimed at Indigenous Australians, you know,

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Speaker 1: Indigenous Territorians, as if it's normal for us to you know,

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Speaker 1: for our people to be almost one hundred percent of

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Speaker 1: the makeup of those that are in prison, you know,

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Speaker 1: and when they need support, and especially when the government

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Speaker 1: is taking away support services that that would reduce crime,

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean the reasons why we have social

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Speaker 1: issues in our communities is because of the poverty, because

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Speaker 1: of the trauma that's carried, the mental health issues, you know,

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Speaker 1: the health issues. You know, these these are the things

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Speaker 1: that the government should be addressing to make a community safer.

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Speaker 2: I know that there will definitely be people listening right now,

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Speaker 2: those that have been victims of crime that you know,

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Speaker 2: aren't I guess they're probably not thinking about what raised

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Speaker 2: somebody may or may not be who has you know,

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Speaker 2: who's committed that crime against them. But what they're really

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Speaker 2: concerned about is the way in which it's impacted their

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Speaker 2: lives and and you know, particularly some of the older

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Speaker 2: people that we have on the show that have raised

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Speaker 2: concerns with me over recent years about not feeling safe

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Speaker 2: to go out for a walk, not feeling safe to

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Speaker 2: be able to go out and do their shopping on

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Speaker 2: their own, and feel as though, you know, they may

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Speaker 2: not use the OC spray, but it is an added

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Speaker 2: layer to maybe protect them should a dangerous situation arise.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Katie, you know, I'm born and bred in Darwin.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a Territorian and I love my home, you know, Darwin,

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Speaker 1: and I've raised a family, I've still got two young kids,

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Speaker 1: and I share the strong desire for a safer community.

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Speaker 1: I see the you know, the issues on the streets.

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Speaker 1: You know, people that are struggling. I see the violence.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's not anything new to any of us.

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Speaker 1: But what we do know from certainly from my experience,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lifetime of being a Territorian and seeing

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Speaker 1: the policies that government make and listening to the experts

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Speaker 1: as these things develop. And we've got the statistics and

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Speaker 1: the research in that the type of policies that the

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Speaker 1: country Liberal Party are implementing in government will only make

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Speaker 1: things worse. It actually fails to deliver on a promise

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Speaker 1: to reduce crime and to make people safer. And we're

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Speaker 1: a country that has gone away from introducing more weapons

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Speaker 1: into society. We know as Australians when we look at

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Speaker 1: other countries that more weapons that you know that the

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Speaker 1: lack of access to weapons actually makes us safer in

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Speaker 1: this country. But the COLP is just going against that

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Speaker 1: and just using emotion rather than thinking about and listening

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Speaker 1: to experts and community leaders. So what are the.

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Speaker 2: Other concerns that have been raised in the letter. I

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Speaker 2: know that there's definitely been concerns around the police, public

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Speaker 2: safety officers being armed, for example.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is just I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: recipe for disaster. Again. You're putting more weapons out there

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Speaker 1: that could Sure they could be used in some situations

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Speaker 1: where they're needed, but you know, we can it leads

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Speaker 1: to these weapons eventually falling into the wrong hands. That's

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Speaker 1: a great concern. I mean, that's what domestic violence victims

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Speaker 1: have been saying in the media recently about this trial

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Speaker 1: of OC spray. They're afraid of these weapons being on them.

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Speaker 1: You know, we talk about joggers feeling more safe. I

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Speaker 1: mean what if what if the you know, the pepper

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Speaker 1: spray falls into the wrong hands and is used in

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Speaker 1: the opposite direction. I mean, this is something that is

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Speaker 1: a real concern.

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Speaker 2: Look, something that I has been raised with me this morning.

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Speaker 2: We've just got a message coming through saying Katie with respect.

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Speaker 2: You know, Thomas is a man, a you know, a

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Speaker 2: well built man. How dare he tell me is a

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Speaker 2: sixty five kilo woman who's pushing sixty years old? That

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Speaker 2: I can't defend myself.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that a person can't defend themselves. I

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Speaker 1: understand my privilege of being a bigger, you know, bigger

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Speaker 1: person and all the rest, and I want safety for

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Speaker 1: the person, you know, the audience that is that is

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Speaker 1: called in it's But I think it's important for us

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Speaker 1: to keep in mind that we do not make the

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Speaker 1: community safer by introducing more weapons, and the way to

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Speaker 1: reduce crime in the territory is to address the issues

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Speaker 1: to do with, you know, the mental health of people,

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Speaker 1: to support families that need it, and then you get

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Speaker 1: less of these crimes.

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Speaker 2: Do you think there's some irony in the fact though,

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Speaker 2: that it's it's harder to purchase the OC spray than

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Speaker 2: what it is, a machete or a crossbow.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've looked at the requirements to purchase it, and

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Speaker 1: I think they're pretty thin as far as the protections go. Again,

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Speaker 1: you know, a person can I mean basically, there's no

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Speaker 1: there's no checks before someone actually receives the weapon. They

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Speaker 1: you know, they have to declare that they are an

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Speaker 1: eligible person. But but I think it's quite paper thin

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Speaker 1: the protections again of these weapons being in the wrong hand.

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Speaker 2: Hey, one of the issues that's been raised over the

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Speaker 2: weekend is I know that that comments in the letter

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Speaker 2: that went out also included comments from victims of crime,

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Speaker 2: the Victims of Crime CEO. Now, the board came out

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Speaker 2: over the weekend and said that they did not authorize

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Speaker 2: the comments and they're not the views of their organization

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Speaker 2: who put the letter together. And I mean, did the

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Speaker 2: CEO approve those comments before they went out.

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Speaker 1: Look, I don't know what happened in that organization, but

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Speaker 1: what it does tell me is that there's uncertainty about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the best way forward, and that uncertainty I

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Speaker 1: think is widely and deeply felt in the in the territory,

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Speaker 1: in the community right now, which goes to show just

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Speaker 1: how the colp of again rushed something through based on emotion,

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Speaker 1: based on you know, just building up sensationalizing things. Look

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Speaker 1: into territory, listen to the experts, Thomas.

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Speaker 2: Do you think though, that it discredits the letter in

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Speaker 2: any way if you've got you know, comments from the

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Speaker 2: CEO included in there from victims of crime, but then

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Speaker 2: you've got their board coming out saying, hang on a second,

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Speaker 2: we did not approve this.

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Speaker 1: Well, look again, I can't speak for that organization and

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Speaker 1: their processes, but I can point to the almost I

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Speaker 1: think it's around twenty other organizations, organizations that support people

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Speaker 1: that are victims of domestic violence, that support, you know,

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Speaker 1: people that are struggling with mental health, you know, that

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Speaker 1: support families and youth to get on with our life

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Speaker 1: and choose a better path if they're going down the

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Speaker 1: wrong one. All of these organizations that are on the

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Speaker 1: front line are saying that the policies of the anti

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Speaker 1: government are only going to make things worse. And as

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Speaker 1: a father and as a territorium, this concerns me because

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Speaker 1: when these approaches are taken, there might seem like a

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Speaker 1: fix right now, but we know that it only makes

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Speaker 1: things worse. You know, you force people down a path

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Speaker 1: that just makes things more unsafe.

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Speaker 2: Thomas, Any indication from the Northern Territory government if they're

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Speaker 2: going to sit down with you, or if they are

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Speaker 2: going to have a discussion with the with the twenty

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Speaker 2: organizations that have signed that letter, well, look, I.

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Speaker 1: Really hope they do. I hope they take notice. I

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Speaker 1: mean the record will tell us that they won't. They

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Speaker 1: have Trump like rhetoric where they're labeling advocates that have

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Speaker 1: worked on these issues and understand them deeply for their

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Speaker 1: whole lives. We've seen them and expert that know this stuff,

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Speaker 1: that have studied it, that have studied the research, that

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Speaker 1: labeled them as uneducated. Now, I hope they changed tact

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Speaker 1: and talk to these organizations and work out solutions with

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Speaker 1: the experts and these organizations that are on the front line.

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Speaker 1: But you know, making these weapons more available, you know,

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Speaker 1: reducing the opportunities for justice with their bail laws that

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Speaker 1: are toughest in the country, sending you to prison and

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Speaker 1: introducing spit hoods and making it okay to lock up

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Speaker 1: ten year old None of this stuff actually reduces crime,

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Speaker 1: and it actually makes things worse in the near future. Well,

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Speaker 1: Thomas Mayo, get people down that path.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Mayo, Indigenous Justice advocate. Appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having a chat with us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Katie, Thank you,