1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for. 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now. Hello, 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 2: this is doctor Justin Colson. So grateful that you've joined 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: me for another episode of the Happy Families Podcast, the 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: podcast for the time poor parent who just wants answers 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: Now Today answers of a kind of frightening but very 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 2: important kind. I have a guest joining me, Madonna King, 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: the author of ten Ager Being fourteen Fathers and Daughters 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: and More, but a brand new book that she has 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: co authored with John Rouse. I'll let Madonna tell you 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 2: all about who John is in a moment. The book 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: is called Saving Our Children. Madonna, so grateful that you 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: can join me for this podcast Saving our Children. It 14 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: sounds a little bit alarmist. Tell us about the book, 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: why it's in existence, and who John Rowse is and 16 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: why that's so important. 17 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: Well, it is alarmist, to be honest. It was confronting 18 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: writing it, lots of tears, and confronting reading it too. 19 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: I think Inspector John Rowse is probably the global expert 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: on investigations into what's happening online in relation to child 21 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: sex offenses. So he ran Task Force Agos He's worked 22 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: with the FBI and the Interpol, and both FBI and 23 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Interpol say to me, there is no one better in 24 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: the world. He's done this for almost forty years, and 25 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: he retires this year. And so I sat down with 26 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: him for hours and hours and hours and days and 27 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: days and days, and revisited some investigations, and just I 28 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: got into his mind about what worries him as a parent, 29 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: what he's seeing, and what our children aren't telling us. 30 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: And that's what I find alarming. 31 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 2: Justin what our children aren't telling us. I want to 32 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: share a story with you. I've got an email about 33 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: no maybe six months ago now, and actually before I 34 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: share the story, just a quick warning for parents of 35 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: younger kids. By all means, let your teenagers or even 36 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: some of your older twins listen to this conversation. It's important, 37 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: but we are going to be talking about things of 38 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: sexual nature and of abusive nature that occur online. Will 39 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: keep it PG rated, but please be mindful of the content. 40 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: So the email that I received, Madonna, I'm sure that 41 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 2: this is probably only scratching the surface of what you 42 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: describe in saving our children. But the email came from 43 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: a mum who said I don't know what to do. 44 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: Here's what's happened. And she essentially explained that her son 45 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: had come into her bedroom at about eleven o'clock at 46 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: night in tears. He was about sixteen years old, sobbing 47 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 2: and saying, Mum, I'm in so much trouble. I don't 48 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: know what to do, just heartfelt, gut wrenching sobs. And 49 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: when she finally helped him to breathe a little bit 50 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 2: and have a hug and calm down, he explained that 51 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 2: he'd been on Instagram. A really gorgeous girl had slid 52 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 2: into his DMS and started messaging him. Within a very 53 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: short period of time, I'm talking ten to twenty minutes, 54 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: she'd sent an explicit image of herself to him, saying 55 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: would you like more of this? He, obviously, being a 56 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: sixteen year old boy, said yes, I probably would, and 57 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 2: she said I need one as well, and so he 58 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 2: took a photo of himself and sent it to her. 59 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: Her next message was her describing that she was not 60 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: who she said she was. She was actually somebody living overseas, 61 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: a middle aged mail essentially, and if he didn't pay, 62 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: I think it was five hundred dollars in bitcoin. Within 63 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 2: the next fifteen minutes, the image that he had sent 64 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 2: of himself was going to be shared with everybody on 65 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: his friends list, on Instagram and on his other social media. 66 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: Then this person sent screenshots of all of his friends 67 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: on his various social media accounts, showing that they did 68 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: have the capacity to send those messages, explaining who the 69 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: image was and five hundred dollars right now. He sent 70 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: the five hundred bucks. It was everything he had in 71 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: his bank, and then a second message came through saying, 72 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: now I'd like another five thousand, and at that point 73 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: he freaked out, realized that he was in way over 74 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: his head and went to his mum. So she came 75 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: to me and said, what do I do? Now? I'm 76 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: really really stuck. This is known as sextortion. What I'm 77 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: in interested in is how common? 78 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: Is it too common? And can I just say to 79 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: that mum she has done something so right that he 80 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: came to her. Yes, because Lisa is saying, there's one 81 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: hundredfold increasing complaints. This is happening in each of our 82 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: capital cities and rural areas today. It may involve a 83 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: girl or a boy, entirely different approaches, and we can 84 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: go into that, but it is really really common. You know, 85 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: in the US, tech providers have to report suspicious online 86 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: child abuse to this National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. 87 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: Then they fan those tips out worldwide. Last year it 88 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: received thirty two million suspicious reports. They passed them on 89 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: to one hundred and fifty countries, and about one hundred 90 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: and eighty thousand of them related to Australia in some way. 91 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: The thing is justin this is happening now going quicker 92 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: each day. Some particularly boys are responding within three hours 93 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: with a picture of themselves. Others it takes weeks. And 94 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: with boys it can happen between the ages I guess 95 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: of twelve and twenty four, which is quite late really 96 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: with girls it usually is say maybe twelve to about eighteen. 97 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: So the number of complaints we know about are only 98 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: those whose children went to a parent or a school, 99 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: often who then went to police. So how many times 100 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: is this happening today that you and I don't know 101 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: about but parents don't know about either. 102 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: It's the kind of thing where you just think, how 103 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 2: is this happening like? And one thing that stands out 104 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: to me is like on parental guidance, when we did 105 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: the child safety online issue with the kids playing a 106 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: game and being approached by a stranger, and we had 107 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: the Australian Federal Police involved in that as well. The 108 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: parents said to us, but we've had these conversations without 109 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 2: we have talked to them about it. We can't believe 110 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: that it's still happened. Why do you think that our 111 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: between and teen girls and boys are being swept up 112 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 2: in it? What is it about being online and having 113 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: the experience? How do they get sex? Staughted like, why 114 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: aren't they just saying no? Because my parents told me 115 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: that this is a bad idea. 116 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: So can I divide this between girls and boys? Because 117 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: I think it is really really different. 118 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the process would be different. 119 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: Right. 120 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: A girl is not receiving a picture of a guy 121 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: and saying, oh, now I need to send a picture 122 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: of myself. Right, Girls and boys' brains work differently in 123 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: this area, so it's got to be a different process. 124 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. So girls are sent a picture of another girl 125 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: who has seen her public friendship list and she might say, oh, look, 126 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: I think we know each other through netball, or I'm 127 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: from this city. We have joint friends. None of our 128 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: teens are saying no to joining up someone. So our 129 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: girls are thinking they are talking to a. 130 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 2: Peer, yeah, like a friend of a friend, a. 131 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: Friend of a friend. Now the target is often a 132 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: good girl, because it's normal to want to know about 133 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: sex and things like that, but it's more difficult to 134 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: ask your family or even to ask a friend face 135 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: to face. If they're thinking they're talking about a friend 136 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: of a friend and that friend of a friend sends 137 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: a picture of her breast and says, do you think 138 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: mina a bit odd or one's bigger than the other. 139 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: Is that the same with you? This girl, the target 140 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: is thinking, oh no, or mina a bit unusual tool 141 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: or something, and she's sending it a picture of hers 142 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: then back. And that's the point, which is quite innocent 143 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: when and it is always a male in every case 144 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: i've seen comes on and said look, I'm sorry. You know, no, 145 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: they don't say I'm sorry. I'm in America, and this 146 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: is what you will do now. And in relation to girls, 147 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: they don't ask for money, They ask for more intimate pictures. 148 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: And you know, justin let me just say, I will 149 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: never forget sitting listening with police to I feel like crime, 150 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: listening to one video where and I've put this in 151 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: Saving Our Kids, where a girl is playing with a 152 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 1: hairbrush in her room sexually on the orders of someone online. 153 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: Her mum is about four meters away on the other 154 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: side of the door, calling her for dinner. Now, this 155 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: person who was a male who police believe is in 156 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: America because of his accent. They believe the girl is 157 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: in Australia because of the couple of words she said, 158 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: but they can't find either. And I think she sent something. 159 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: Then she was too scared to go out and say 160 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: I've been sex torted. And once you do one thing, 161 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: it's hard then not to do BC and D with boys. 162 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: It's exactly as you say. But you know the Nigerian 163 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: bride scams and money scams and dating scams, they've just 164 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: moved to sex scams targeting our teen boys. So they 165 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: are set up in the Ivory coast of Nigeria and 166 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: the Philippines. These call centers, they give locals bonuses and 167 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: money to ensnare Australian kids. 168 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: It's so warped. Like I'm sitting here, Madonna, and I 169 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: just can't I literally cannot conceive of the mentality of 170 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: people who like you said they're set up in call centers. 171 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: These are professional operations, right, It's not like there's obviously 172 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: there are some there's too many perverts and creeps and 173 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: widows who are out there who are trying to do 174 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: this thing as well. But this is happening at an 175 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: industrial scale. 176 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: Oh, so the boys is the boys of the core center. 177 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: The girls are the online sex predators. Right, totally different, 178 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: totally different criminals. 179 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: Because the money is in the boys. Right, you can 180 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: get your bitcoin and you can get you whatever you 181 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: need with the money. 182 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's often we have had suicides as a 183 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: result of this that are not reported. One boy was 184 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: ordered to send ten thousand dollars and if they say no, 185 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: the AFP told me that they are asking them to 186 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: set up a bank account in their name that's say 187 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: Brisbane or Sydney or Melbourne. And Australia is becoming what 188 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: did they call it, the middle ring of a money 189 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: laundering operation where money is launded through these kids' accounts 190 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: back to Africa or the Phillipps. 191 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 2: So the kids just set up like a direct deposit sort. 192 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: Of scheme and other money is sent through that. So 193 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: this is happening at so many layers and you know, 194 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: can I give two tips now before we even go on. 195 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: You know, John Rowse said to me, not one photo 196 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: he's ever seen has been taken outside a bedroom or 197 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: a bathroom. So if you are listening to Justin and me, now, 198 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: why the hell are we allowing any child? Why do 199 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: we even have our phones in a bedroom or a bathroom? 200 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: Because this makes it really difficult for children to do 201 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: pictures like that. The second thing is, don't confiscate their 202 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: mobile phone because when I ask children, why don't you 203 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: walk out and tell Mum or Dad, they fear I'll 204 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: take their phone off them. We've got to make sure 205 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: our kids come out and say we stuffed up by 206 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: telling them how we stuff up all the time, and 207 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: then they know that if they stuff up, it's not 208 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: the end of the world. They can come out Now. Job, 209 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: surely as parents and carers is to provide their backstop 210 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: and get them help, and that is to then go 211 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: to police. 212 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: Madonna, when you were talking to John, what did he 213 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 2: say most parents do when they find out about this. 214 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: What's the standard response from parents? 215 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: The problem is most parents don't find out about it. 216 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: I know a Brisbane school is now dealing with several cases. 217 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: A Sydney school several cases involving girls. The Brisbane school 218 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: involves boys. And in all of those cases one hundred 219 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: percent of them it was to a school guidance counselor 220 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: a teacher or a deputy principal. And so I think 221 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: most parents that I know have done the right thing 222 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: and gone to police, because you cannot deal with this yourself. 223 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: You can protect your child and talk to your child 224 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: and look after your child. I think the problem is 225 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: at the other end, where four in five parents say 226 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: there is no likelihood of this happening to their child. 227 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: Ninety seven percent do not list online grooming as a 228 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: concern now. Bruce Morecambe, who lost his son, recently had 229 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: his grandson an attempt at grooming, who was playing roadblocks. 230 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: He is six years old and he's in the back 231 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: of the car and he says, Pop, why does let's 232 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: call him Christopher? Why does Christopher keep talking to me 233 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: on my game? And Bruce Morecambe said his blood went cold. 234 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: He's lost his son and he's thinking what the hell 235 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: And he went back through the history and it is 236 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: the one person just offering his grandson advice on how 237 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: to play roadblocks and trying to contact him on a 238 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: regular basis. He was being groomed. So it's these little 239 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: things from chat functions, abilities to access your child on 240 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: public friendship lists. The access is through so many different 241 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: ways that I think if I was I have two daughters, 242 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: they've just left school, but if they were thirteen or 243 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: nine or fifteen now, we would be having an entirely 244 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: different conversation. The phone is there. How do we protect 245 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: our child from not what our children do, which is 246 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: what the public narrative is, don't do this, be kind, 247 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: do that, but how we can protect them from other 248 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: people approaching them via computer games or chat functions or 249 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: through sextortion. And that's a different conversation justin than the 250 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: one we're having in Australia about how we treat each 251 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: other on social media. Does that make sense? 252 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: Just you know, I'm sitting here. It makes I'm half 253 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: crying and I'm half looking for a punching bag to 254 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: hit because it makes me so mad that our kids 255 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 2: just can't be kids, that there are so many people 256 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 2: with dark designs that are doing this. I want to 257 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 2: do a summary here. Our time is all but up, 258 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 2: and I feel like we could talk about this for 259 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: the next three days. The summary is as follows, and 260 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: you tell me if I've gotten anything wrong. First off, 261 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: there are people out there with evil designs for our children. 262 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: Our sons are being targeted for money. They're usually being 263 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: targeted by somebody pretending to be somebody that they're not 264 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: getting an image and then chasing dollars and extorting them 265 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: or sex storting them that way. Our daughters are being 266 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: targeted for imagery. Somebody pretends to be a friend of 267 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 2: a friend, brings them into their confidence and gets an image, 268 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: and then starts the pursuit of more and more images 269 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: the sex stortion. 270 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: Which they then just spread across the dark web around 271 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: the world forevermore. 272 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: The next thing that we've talked about is the simple 273 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: reality that there are people who have awful intentions who 274 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 2: are literally on every platform, it's not like there's one 275 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: that's safer than any other, who are trying to contac 276 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: tacked out children in all kinds of helpful ways, pro 277 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: social ways, so that they can build trusts and move 278 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: them onto other platforms and treat them abusively actually abuse them. 279 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: The book is called Saving Our Kids. It's been written 280 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: by Madonna King and Inspector John Rouse. Madonna. As we 281 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: wrap up, I'm going to ask you to restate the 282 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: tips that you've given, plus any others. You've got children 283 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: who have just left school, but if they were going 284 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: into grade five, grade six, or even grade two or 285 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 2: grade three, and certainly if they are in high school now, 286 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: I want to know what you would do differently based 287 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: on what you've learned saving our kids. 288 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: They would not have a smartphone until they're thirteen. They 289 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: would not be on social media until it was permitted, 290 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: and with my guidance, they would never have a phone 291 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: in their bedroom or their bathroom. They would not have 292 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: any public list of friends. And I would work day 293 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: or night asking myself this question. If they made a 294 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: mistake and god in trouble, how have I dealt with 295 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: them so that they would come out and say Mum, 296 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: or go to their dad and say I stuffed up. 297 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: I really need your help. 298 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: I'm sitting here almost weeping as you talk about this, 299 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: because it just doesn't seem right. That last point that 300 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: you've made for me is the essential one. Yeah, We've 301 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 2: got to have the relationship with our kids where they 302 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: know that they can come to us and we've got 303 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: their back. And hopefully parents have listened to our conversation 304 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: now Madonna, hopefully they'll go and buy your book, Saving 305 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: Our Kids. But hopefully after listening to this, they'll re 306 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: listen with their kids and talk about it and just say, 307 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: can you please, can you please please talk to me 308 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: if anything ever happens, you need to know that I'm safe. 309 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: That's what I'm looking for, that's what I want more of. 310 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: The book is called Saving Our Kids, Saving Our Kids 311 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: by Madonna King. It's out today. You can find it 312 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 2: wherever you buy books online, in store, Saving our Kids. 313 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: Please buy it. Please have the conversation with your kids, 314 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: maybe even read it with them, especially if they're a 315 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: little bit older. It's just so important. Madonna, thank you 316 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: so much for the important work you do. I'm so 317 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 2: grateful for this conversation. I wish we could keep it going. 318 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: But good luck with the book, and let's hope that 319 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: we actually do save a whole lot of kids because 320 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: of this conversation and because of what you bring. 321 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: Thanks Justin. 322 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from 323 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. Go On 324 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: by the book Saving Our Kids Madonna King and Inspector 325 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: John Rouse. If you want more information about keeping your 326 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 2: kids safe, I'm not going to send you to Happy 327 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 2: Families right now, although we've got a whole lot of 328 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: resources there. Have a look at the e Safety Commissioner's website, 329 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 2: have a look at the book. Do something to keep 330 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 2: your kids safe.