WEBVTT - A Look Back Behind the Bars 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:05.280 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:07.680 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.320 It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:11.080 absolutely really. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.200 Heamous blood on his clothing the day after the alleged. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.160 Attap on a shallow mud bank and if bit through river. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.320 Basically, I think most of the people are used to 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:19.800 me are good people. 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.480 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.560 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:29.120 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.639 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.440 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.120 Amy Maguire and I'm. 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:42.240 Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.360 And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.920 peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.240 Welcome to Curtain the podcast. Today, we're going to take 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.520 you back to the case of Kevin Henry and we're 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.480 going to be doing it with a very special guest. Now, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.360 we've previously told you on this podcast about how we 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.080 came to know about Kevin's case, How Mardin and I 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.440 became involved and how we began investigating. But today I 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.800 want to tell you something a little more personal. Back 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.680 when I first heard the name Kevin Henry, I called 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.920 someone very close to me. At that point, I had 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.080 no idea about the case. I didn't know what happened. 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.320 I didn't know what Rockhampton was like. Back then, I 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.720 was only three years old, and I definitely didn't know 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.360 if there was any truth in Kevin's claims of innocence. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.240 But I thought to us someone I could rely upon, 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:41.000 I consider him a reliable witness. And that person is 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:46.560 my father, Sterling macchuire. Now I didn't just consider him 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:51.280 a reliable witness because he was my father. I also 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:55.200 had another reason, and the reason was this, for the 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.160 majority of my life, from when I was one until 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.160 my early twenties, my father had actually worked as a 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.680 prison officer at Etna Creek Jail, the jail at Kevin 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.320 Henry had spent the majority of his sentence. He's currently 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.480 on parole. Dad is a drumble and South Sea Islander 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.160 man and he grew up his whole life in Rockhampton. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.000 He had known Kevin from when he was incarcerated on 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.520 non violent offenses as a teenager, and he had actually 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.000 been there on Judy the night that Kevin Henry was 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.240 wrongly convicted of rape and murder, all the way back 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.280 in nine ninety two. He had seen the guards bring 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.840 him in. So when I heard the name Kevin Henry, 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:39.120 I immediately rang my father. And before I had even 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.480 mentioned the question of innocence or why I had heard 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:47.040 about the case, Dad had told me straightway, Yeah, I 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:52.440 was a bit suspicious. All those years that Dad was 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.639 at jail, all those years in which he was watching 0:02:55.680 --> 0:03:01.399 Kevin Henry. He thought that there may be questions, there 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:07.040 may be reasons to believe him when Kevin protested his innocence, 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:10.360 and there were a couple of reasons. He thought that 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.640 today we're going to bring Dad on the podcast to 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.360 tell you why. Martin and I interviewed him from Rockampden 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:19.480 earlier this week. 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:26.399 Hello listeners out there, I'm Stirling Amy's dad, and yeah, 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.840 nice to welcome you to the podcast from Darable Country. 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:32.040 And how would you describe yourself? Dad? 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.760 Who are you born and bred in Rockampton, Queensland. I'm 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:40.680 of Aboriginal and South Sea Islander descent and spent the 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.760 majority of my life here in Rockampton except for Stintony. 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.120 Australian Army was down in Sydney down there for a 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.200 short period. Oh well six year period. 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:55.160 Yeah, so Dad, do you remember when I first asked 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.280 you about Kevin Henry's case? 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.760 Oh, I can remember it. I'm just forget how long 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:06.600 ago that is now, it seems to be a fair period, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:11.800 a fair time now since that was, I can remember it, 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:18.480 and yeah, it come out of the blue. And one 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.240 thing with my experience out there in the correctional center 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:27.720 is they come across many people over the course of 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.960 my time out there, and people from all walks of 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:39.440 life going to jail convicted of crimes and never really 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.599 took an interest really and what they were in for 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.080 or what happened or anything like that. And so I 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:50.480 never asked questions. Really there was none of my business. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:56.120 But different different prisoners would tell me. Some would tell 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:01.479 me what they did. They admitted their crime, would say 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.200 if they didn't do it, and what happened to was said, well, 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.599 that's you know, they were convicted in a court of law. 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:12.320 There's nothing I would say, Well they told me they 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.440 were innocent. Well, I said, well that's something that you know, 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.640 what you tell me if you of what you say, Well, 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:25.240 there's that's something that you know, you know, and so yeah, 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.240 I plody of prisoners tell me about the crimes they 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.839 admitted they didn't. There's others out there that said that 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.440 they didn't do it. So I had no doubt that 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.680 there may have been There may be people that were 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.440 wrongly convicted. So put it that. 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.159 Way, But there was When I called you that day, 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.960 Kevin Henry immediately stuck stuck out in your mind, didn't he? 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.680 Why Why did you immediately have recollections of Kevin Henry 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:52.160 when I asked you that that day. 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.360 Well, Kevin Henry, when I first started out, there was 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:02.240 a young man, probably about seventeen eighteen years of age, 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:08.360 and I merely I remember him because he was oh 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.080 yeah he I just remember him as a young man. 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.640 So Kevin Henry, I can remember the day that he 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:21.320 came back from court when he was sentenced to it 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:26.120 were not sentence convicted of that crime? On duty that night, Yeah, 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.120 I was on duty. He came back late that night 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.440 because I was on duty when they when they brought 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:41.280 him back, it was a late sitting and yeah, it was. Yeah, 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:46.400 there was sort of questions around around that case. Anyway, 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.480 I've known Kevin Henry for quite some time, and it 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:55.440 was it wasn't until probably oh, I'm trying to think now, 0:06:55.440 --> 0:07:01.919 it's probably about oh, yeah, that was in the old jail, 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.359 so it was quite a few years before there was 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:07.800 ninety one or ninety two, I think it was, and 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.080 the new jail opened up in two thousand. I think 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.200 it was two thousand, So that's eight years. And there 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.040 was probably another eight years after that, so he's probably 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.120 eighteen years into his sentence. Him and I were I 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:25.120 was escorting him back to the block one day, and 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.720 so we were just him and I going back into 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.520 the block, and he said out of the blue, which, 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.080 like I said, is not unusual for other prisons have 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.160 done the same thing when I'm just one on one 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.560 with the prisons. And he said, because it stuck out 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.200 in my mind when Amy wrang me or should I say, 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.400 a chance conversation one on one, and Kevin said out 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:51.400 of the blue, he said that where he's wrongly convicted, 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.280 and he said about the police holding the gun at 0:07:55.360 --> 0:08:01.920 his head to admit to to make a false statement something. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:08.080 But that's stuck in my mind because I knew Kevin, 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.680 you know, probably for a long time out there, but 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.800 never really had a real close dealings with him, And 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.720 for him to come out on that day in question, 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.880 that's what struck out because he just said it, and 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:25.880 I thought, wow, that was just unusual for someone to 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:26.360 say that. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.400 And Dad, you mentioned before that you had a lot 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.679 of people who entered prison who would plead their innocence, 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.640 but it was obviously something about Kevin Henry that made 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.280 you believe it was that the reason or were there 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:39.359 other reasons? 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.040 To me, it was the read. What confused me is 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.800 why would he tell me that? And why would he 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.760 tell me that? You know, I never heard that before, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:56.480 Like he didn't go around making a general statement or 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:00.719 everything everywhere, but Jeeves, it was like a yeah, it 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.240 was just strange, that's what I thought. And I thought, well, 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.560 at the time, I thought, yeah, well that's because he 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.440 sounded pretty convincing when he said it, And I thought, well, 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:18.240 it's I didn't disbelieve it, so I thought, well, that's yeah. 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:23.920 I just thought that because Kevin had never really spoken 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:29.360 to me anything was to say confidential something anything confidential 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:30.120 like that before. 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.760 Do you think there was a reason he was picking 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.440 you specifically to tell you. 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.760 No, that's what I say. I to this day, I 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:40.839 wondered why he said. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.240 That, And you never told anyone else until I brought 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:44.320 off his name that day. 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:49.360 No, I didn't because when prisoners said me said certain 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.160 things to me, well, they committed crimes and said they 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.680 did it, and I didn't tell anyone else. That's a 0:09:55.720 --> 0:10:01.560 conversation between that person and me. So I just but 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:02.719 I always remembered that. 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.360 I think the allegation of someone a police officer, putting 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.920 a gun to a person's head and forcing them to 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:13.080 confess seems quite I think to other people would be 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.199 hard to believe. Was it hard to believe for you? 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.360 I'm trying to put words either. Well, it's not not 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:26.600 impossible to believe. So well, like I said, when a 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:31.120 prison out there told me things like that, that's what 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:35.800 they said. So it's not for me to say it's 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.880 wrong or right, because I can't make that judgment. But 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.960 so I didn't disbelieve it. You can't can't disbelieve it. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.880 But I remember when I had that conversation with you 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.600 that day. I remember you were pretty sure. 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:50.800 Oh. 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.080 I always thought there was something wrong with Kevin's case. 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:55.800 I always thought that there was something. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:56.400 To his innocence. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.640 Yes, that's right. A lot of people thought that because 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.560 just things in the local newspaper and on the news 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.720 just sort of like didn't add up. So when he 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.840 said that to me that day, I thought, well, yes, 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.320 there's something there, so but that stuck in my mind 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:18.400 for a long long time. 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.760 One of the interesting things about what Sterlings just said 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.679 is that it mirrors almost every conversation I've had as 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:31.640 I've rung lawyers, members of the Aboriginal community, members of 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.240 the general community who lived in Rockhampton at the time, 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:40.880 people across various industries. Was that they all had their 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:45.280 doubts about Kevin Henry's guilt. There was always something not 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.280 right in their mind. The case stood out, whether it 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.280 was the fishermen that we've spoken to before, right through 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.439 the barristers and others. For everyone, there was this thing 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:00.000 that something wasn't right, and yet it hadn't really been 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.559 in that disgust in a greater context until we were 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.120 able to dive further in. And you've heard what the 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:09.280 results of that were. 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:16.040 Because I've known Kevin Henry or known of him out 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.040 in jail when he before he was, he was on 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:23.320 a smaller sentence before, he's only young, and then when 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:27.080 he came in for this one when he was remanded 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:32.480 for murder or remanded on this case. So I've seen 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:38.160 him grow from a young man, you know, teenager into 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:43.400 a well to a virtually a middle aged man. And 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:48.160 when I see when he started his first part of 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:55.600 his sentence when he was convicted of that murder, was yeah, 0:12:55.679 --> 0:13:01.880 he was what should I say, he was troublesome. But 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:07.280 when I look back, and I've put myself in that 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:14.200 position if I had been in prison for something I 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:19.439 didn't do, a capital crime, I just don't know how 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.160 I would react. Well, I think when I'm looking back 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:26.120 through his what I noticed of Kevin and then you know, 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.040 over the years, I think it's a normal reaction of 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:35.120 someone if they were convicted of a capital crime for 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.000 a long period, and I think it's only a natural 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.800 you know, if they're innocent, that's how people would react. 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.160 Because I thought if I was in that position, I 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:49.480 would have been exactly the same. 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.480 And you know, having worked on cases around the world, 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:58.120 it's very a similar experience, whether it's in America or 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.120 cases I've worked on in the Middle East that the 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.920 people that have that reaction when they first get sentenced 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.920 are often the people whose stories you really want to 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:13.920 listen to because of the potential innocence. It's really an 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:18.760 unusual phenomenon that the people who are guilty once they 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.320 get their sentence often go quietly into the night and 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.240 don't put up too much of a farce. So again, 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.400 you know, this was something that stood out for me 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.920 hearing these things over time, was that it was very 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.720 consistent with the twenty years of working with people who 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:38.080 had been wrongly convicted. 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.920 Can I take you back to the night, because I 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:45.800 think it's pretty interesting that you were on Judy the 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.600 night that Kevin was actually convicted. What was prison like 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.480 back then? What was the prison that Kevin was entering. 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:56.480 Well, we were in the old prison which has since 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:02.560 been knocked down, and rightly so, it was an old prison, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:13.160 decaying buildings. There was louvers broken or just missing louvers, 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.960 so if it was cold at night or rained, prisoners 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:21.920 would put blankets or get bits of cardboard to fill 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.040 in the places where the missing louvers. It was just 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:33.400 very a terrible rundown state and certainly not fit for 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.520 human habitations that way. 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:39.640 And yeah, it was. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.960 Yeah, just just not a nice place. 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:48.640 And what do you mean by just not a nice place. 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:54.640 Where you mean, well, there was a place where a 0:15:54.680 --> 0:16:01.640 lot of assaults had happened, murders had happened, suicides that happened, 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.400 people like things like slash ups. People know whether the 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.800 slash up is it was full of it, and just 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:11.480 lots of violence. It was very violent. 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:13.680 So it was a very dangerous place to be even 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:15.040 for everyone. 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:19.280 I think it was a dangerous place for everyone. Yeah, 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.840 so yeah, just but it's very nature m Yeah, it 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:29.040 wasn't safe at all. So especially for young prisoners it 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:35.000 was wasn't. It wasn't very safe for them. As far 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:40.200 as prison offices you can do so much, but yeah, 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.360 you know, it wasn't. It was. It was, yeah, like 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.120 I said, a place that I'm glad it's not there anymore. 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:51.640 Do you remember you mentioned before the night that Kevin 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.640 was convicted. Can you tell me more about that? Do 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.920 you remember a lot about when he was brought back in. 0:16:59.440 --> 0:16:59.600 Oh? 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.000 Was that when they brought him back it was late. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.080 It was not that long before lock up and lock 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:10.000 up used to be nine fifteen at night. There was 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.040 he they brought him back to me not long before 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:16.359 lock up. I think even the and I just can't 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.240 think of the accompanying officers, well wouldn't say anyway, but 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:27.160 I think they had doubts. Well they well they said, 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:32.120 so that's all. They had doubts. But anyway, I don't 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.120 know who they were or couldn't say anyway who they were. 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.040 So even from the very first night Kevin was convicted, 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.159 even other prison officers had doubts. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:44.440 Well, that is what overhearing certain ones said that yes, 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:46.480 people that were. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:51.479 There, he said, before you knew Kevin for a very 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:53.439 long time, how would you describe him as a person 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:54.320 from how you knew it? 0:17:55.480 --> 0:18:00.600 Well, like I said, I didn't know him personally. And 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.320 being from the you know, we had a large number 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:10.680 of inmates out there or prisoners from Warabinda, so they 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:17.520 extended to stick close together. So they stick together in 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:21.879 their own group, you know, obviously because family ties and 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.080 all that sort of stuff. So I didn't really get 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:30.160 to know them. And from my experience, being of South 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:37.560 Island descent at that time Aboriginals and Southea Islanders, there 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.520 was a bit of a split between the two groups. 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.240 For whatever reason, I don't know, but there was that group, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.840 so I didn't sort of get to know. It wasn't 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.399 until years later that I got to know them a 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:54.000 lot better. So and then everything was got you know, 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:59.800 everything's changed after that. But around that time the Warabinda 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:07.320 prisoners tended to stick together and they didn't communicate much 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.840 out of that that I do know from another black 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:15.600 prison officer who I won't name, he also told me 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.600 that Kevin Henry had told him that, but he hadn't 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.040 said anything. It was only till after all this come out. 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.119 But I won't reveal the name of that black prison officer, 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.359 so he obviously did tell He may have told well 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.119 other black prison office but I don't know, but I 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.280 know of at least one who said, yes, tell him, 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.320 And this was probably around the same time. 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.199 Yeah, and from my experience too, I mean, people have 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.080 to understand that prisons are not a place where you 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:56.000 have casual conversations about these sort of things. And it's 0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:01.160 really common working on cases in the South of America 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.359 with African American inmates who have been wrongfully convicted that 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.920 often it takes the years to build up the courage 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.679 to tell someone. They'll often watch a prison guard for 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.280 years and see who they're going to be able to trust, 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.679 because it really is the biggest thing in their life 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.560 and the thing that weighs heaviest. So I think people 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.399 need to understand that it's not just casual conversations that 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.480 people are going to be having, and that it's quite 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.880 a strategic thing for a prisoner to make that decision. 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.760 Is it even worth telling this person because if they're 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.200 not going to believe me and I'm going to suffer consequences, 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:42.679 there's no point. So I think for me looking at 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:47.399 it from afar, it seems quite understandable why Kevin made 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.720 the decision to tell Sterling and another black prison officer, 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:57.640 because he'd clearly decided that these were people he could trust. 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.920 And in prison, that's all about who we squeaky clean. 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:03.320 I mean, you're not going to be going to anyone 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:07.680 who you don't trust because you've observed their behavior. You're 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.280 going to people who do their job and do it right. 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.760 And I can't imagine that would have been an easy 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.840 thing for Kevin either. So I think that's what people 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.080 need to understand, that it's not just something you just 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.520 come out and say randomly on the first day you're there, 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:28.240 especially not as Sterling's explain that the old prison was. 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.680 It was a rough place, and you know, it's well documented. 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.520 You can look up in the archives that are available 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:39.480 on government websites about the murders and the suicides and 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.679 the violence that occurred out there. So you're not just 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.840 going to be having casual conversations. And I think that's 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:47.600 important for people to understand. 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.160 Well, I think the other thing too to remember is that, 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:57.200 well I've started out there. You know, prison offices weren't 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:03.560 supposed to fragnize with prisoners. That was just against We 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:06.399 just weren't allowed to do that. Because when I was 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:08.720 out there, you couldn't be on first name basis. It 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.200 was they had to call me sir, and I called 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:14.440 them prisoner so and so. And it wasn't until I 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:19.439 think nineteen ninety two or ninety three that they dropped 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.119 the you know, they had to call a prisoner prisoner, 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:25.320 had to call a prison officer sir all the time. 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:27.400 I think it was about nineteen ninety two ninety three 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:31.359 they dropped it. I think for a long time before 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:35.119 I finished, you know, they just called me Stlough. But 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.120 to some of the some of some of white prisoners, 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.480 either the prisoners that come up from Melbourne or Sydney 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.359 or that, Well, they called you chief, and that's like 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:49.280 a sign of respect. You know, they called you chief. 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:51.879 And some of the older ones still called your boss, 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:55.439 but you know it was either stirlo or chief or 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:57.000 something like that. Yeah, that's how it was. 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.480 And so by the time Kevin tells you what happened, 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:04.720 you're in the new prison. Did the relations between prisoners 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.199 and the guards improve once you're in better conditions in 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:09.119 the new prison? 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:19.479 Yeah, I think they did. The new jails it's far safer. 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.640 Although there was there's been trouble out there. There had 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:26.840 been trouble there, but I think overall it was far 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:33.719 safer because it was that the old jail it was 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:37.439 like in one big compound, so you had ten accommodation blocks, 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:41.800 and you know they're all facing each other across a compound, 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:46.880 five on each side. So anything that happened, if there 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:51.240 was a incident or an argument or something happening between 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:54.760 a prison officer and a prisoner, well they're on show 0:23:55.160 --> 0:24:00.200 between the whole block. Everyone can see them. So you 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.880 see what I mean, you're on show. So the prisoner, 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:07.640 or even if it's a thing between two prisoners, but whoever, 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:12.560 it's between So you're both on show, so you both 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:16.320 got a reputation to uphold, you see what I mean? 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:18.040 Yeah, that makes sense. 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:23.520 Yeah, in the new jail, they're all well, each block 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:29.080 is isolated, so no one knows. Even the block next 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:31.560 door doesn't really know what's going on in that block. 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.160 So back at the old jail, when everyone was on show, 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:37.600 it sounds like it would have been almost impossible for 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:41.280 you to have had that conversation with Kevin because everyone 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:41.720 would have. 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:45.440 Seene none none, see yeah, none, none at all. 0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:47.480 Do you think that was part of it? The fact 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:49.199 is we're alone together in the. 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:53.120 Air, it's right. Yeah, I say we were alone, which 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:57.639 didn't doesn't happen a lot. There's always other people around. 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.159 Do you think the same that you're a black prison 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:05.760 guard was the reason that Kevin might have chosen to 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:06.840 speak to you that day. 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:17.480 Oh, undoubtedly, that's why. Undoubtedly. Hey. Oh, but the the 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:25.800 two detectives, but later on, well you know, will come out. 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:28.160 The two detectives. I remember them coming in. 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:31.240 A lot involved in his case. 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:34.959 I remember them coming in a lot. Yes, in the 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:38.480 old jail. In the new jail, I've seen them a 0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:41.960 lot coming in interviewing and doing interviews and stuff there. 0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:48.360 Oh but yeah, not aware of what was what was. 0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:52.680