Speaker 1: You probably know that creating good habits can help make
Speaker 1: you more productive, but can habits make you happier? For me,
Speaker 1: I quit sugar seven years ago, which makes me a
Speaker 1: whole lot happier because I no longer have to worry
Speaker 1: about that awful sugar crash that followed. And my daily
Speaker 1: exercise habit definitely makes me happier too, as does an
Speaker 1: evening reading habit that I've recently started to build. But
Speaker 1: could I be doing more? Is there a way that
Speaker 1: I could level up that happiness? And could I be
Speaker 1: making decisions in a different way to bring me even
Speaker 1: more happiness? Well, today I get to ask those very
Speaker 1: questions of my own personal happiness guru Gretchen Ruben. Gretchen
Speaker 1: is the host of the popular weekly podcast Happier with
Speaker 1: Gretchen Ruben, and she's the author of several books, including
Speaker 1: the international bestseller The Happiness Project. After Amantha Imba. I'm
Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,
Speaker 1: and this is how I work, a show about how
Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. I've been a
Speaker 1: fan of Gretchen's for over a decade, and the first
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to know was what does someone who
Speaker 1: was dedicated over ten years of their life to thinking
Speaker 1: about and researching happiness do in their own life to
Speaker 1: be happier. What are the habits in Gretchen's life that
Speaker 1: contribute most to her happiness.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I love a great habit, So I
Speaker 2: have a lot I've contributed to my happiness. I would
Speaker 2: say getting to sleep on time and waking up at
Speaker 2: the same time every day. I'm a real morning person,
Speaker 2: so I do my hardest work early in the morning,
Speaker 2: and I like it when it's kind of quiet, and
Speaker 2: so I always get up at the same time every day.
Speaker 2: I one of these people who's a super low car person.
Speaker 2: I have a crazy sweet tooth, and the way that
Speaker 2: I dealt with that was just by quitting sugar and
Speaker 2: basically all carbs. So that's not a habit that everybody
Speaker 2: would want to follow, but that's a habit I love.
Speaker 2: I write every day. That's just to always stay in
Speaker 2: my work. That's a habit. I kiss my husband first thing,
Speaker 2: before I get out of bed in the morning, before
Speaker 2: I check my phone, or before my feet hit the ground.
Speaker 2: That makes me happy. I have a lot of habits
Speaker 2: that make me happy.
Speaker 1: I want to ask about your writing habit and also
Speaker 1: your reading habit. Let's start with your writing habit. What
Speaker 1: does that look like? Can you set the scene as
Speaker 1: to you know, if we were watching you do that,
Speaker 1: what would we observe in terms of how you form
Speaker 1: that habit?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I write books, and so the rhythm
Speaker 2: of my day really depends on where I am in
Speaker 2: a book cycle. So right now I'm doing editing, so
Speaker 2: that means most of it's already written, but I'm doing editing,
Speaker 2: which tends to be like you're working on the things
Speaker 2: that aren't working. Tends to be a little bit hard,
Speaker 2: but you have stuff to work with. So it's like,
Speaker 2: say from six in the morning until like nine or ten,
Speaker 2: and I'm really focused on editing things that are really hard.
Speaker 2: And then after that I start doing things more like
Speaker 2: doing interviews or working on a podcast episode or like
Speaker 2: things that are intellectually challenging but don't take the same
Speaker 2: level of concentration, and sort of as my day goes on,
Speaker 2: I if I can, if I have control, I will
Speaker 2: kind of do increasingly less taxing tasks. But I write
Speaker 2: every day and I read every day. For me reading.
Speaker 2: It's like my it's kind of my cubicle and my playground.
Speaker 2: I love to read. I read for fun all the time,
Speaker 2: but then I also read a ton to give myself
Speaker 2: ideas and you know, and for research. So both of
Speaker 2: those things are are part of reading for me.
Speaker 1: And do you have a specific method when you're reading
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, making notes or references? What
Speaker 1: does that look like?
Speaker 2: Well, that is a great question because actually I spend
Speaker 2: a huge amount of time with notes. And so when
Speaker 2: I read, I'll mark up a book, you know, in
Speaker 2: the if it's a library book, I do it, you know,
Speaker 2: with like sticky notes, and if it's my book, I'll
Speaker 2: just massively mark it up. And then once I'm done
Speaker 2: with the book, I'll go back and then sort of
Speaker 2: go through and take all the notes and so, like
Speaker 2: I have list of quotations, I do one Sudden's aphorisms,
Speaker 2: I have multiple documents on multiple subjects that I might
Speaker 2: be tracking. So doing notes is really fun, but it
Speaker 2: actually does take a lot of time, and so that
Speaker 2: is part of my kind of my reading regimens, so
Speaker 2: I have to sort of work that in as well.
Speaker 2: But like that's something I would do later in the
Speaker 2: day because it's taxing, but it's not that taxing. I
Speaker 2: sort of have to figure out where it plugs into
Speaker 2: all my stuff, but I you know, it's basically copying
Speaker 2: or digesting something from it from a source.
Speaker 1: And what about at the end of the day, do
Speaker 1: you have habits or rituals to disconnect from work or
Speaker 1: reconnect with family or anything like that.
Speaker 2: I guess what in my habits are sort of quitting time.
Speaker 2: So I will sort of say, like, oh, in ten
Speaker 2: minutes and it's just quitting time. And I'll take ten
Speaker 2: minutes and I tidy up my office. So you know,
Speaker 2: if I got out papers, I'll put them back in
Speaker 2: a file or I'll put it back on my courtboard,
Speaker 2: and I'll throw away my trash and I'll put I
Speaker 2: get pens out. I don't know what this happens to me,
Speaker 2: but like I get pens out of my pen cup,
Speaker 2: like fifty pens that I put the pens back at
Speaker 2: the pen cup. And I like this because you know,
Speaker 2: for most people, like for me, outer order contributes to
Speaker 2: intercolm and I find that when I just take ten
Speaker 2: minutes to clean up, it sort of clears my mind
Speaker 2: and it does act as that kind of transition, and
Speaker 2: then when I come back in in the morning, it
Speaker 2: feels like it's so much easier to sit down because
Speaker 2: I'm not finding my way through a bunch of like
Speaker 2: piles of books that I took the notes on, or
Speaker 2: you know, articles to read, or you know, just the
Speaker 2: stuff that accumulates sweat, sweater that I took off. You know,
Speaker 2: I get I put all that stuff away. So I
Speaker 2: do like a ten minute closer every night and then
Speaker 2: and then I feel like, okay, I'm ready to call
Speaker 2: it a day.
Speaker 1: How did you form that habit? Because I feel like
Speaker 1: there'd be a lot of people listening, going like that
Speaker 1: sounds wonderful. But for some reason, I just leave my
Speaker 1: desk a mess at the end of the day because
Speaker 1: that's the easiest thing to do.
Speaker 2: Well, you know. So I have my four tendencies framework,
Speaker 2: and one of the things about me that I've learned
Speaker 2: is I'm an upholder in that framework, and habits tend
Speaker 2: to come pretty easily to upholders, Like that's one of
Speaker 2: the that's one of the nice things about being an
Speaker 2: up folder. There's downside, so that is one of the upsides.
Speaker 2: So that kind of thing, once I was sort of like, oh,
Speaker 2: I want to make this a habit. It wasn't that
Speaker 2: hard for me, and I will say that it's not
Speaker 2: a particularly difficult have it. It's just ten minutes, and
Speaker 2: it's not cleaning. It's not like going through your files
Speaker 2: and deciding like what to keep. It's literally just putting
Speaker 2: things away. I find that very kind of soothing. It's
Speaker 2: like something that you can put on your to do
Speaker 2: list and cross it off right away.
Speaker 1: I'm actually curious, what are some habits that you've tried
Speaker 1: over the years that didn't really work for you?
Speaker 2: Okay, meditation, which I've tried twice, And of course people
Speaker 2: will tell you that like the fact that you that
Speaker 2: meditation doesn't work for you just means that you need
Speaker 2: meditation all the more. But I just have to say
Speaker 2: I've given it two solid tries. I know, I know
Speaker 2: and respect so many people who I'm friends with Dan Harris,
Speaker 2: who is the ten percent Happier app and book, and
Speaker 2: he really convinced me. My college roommate meditates for like
Speaker 2: two or three hours a day and like more if
Speaker 2: she can squeeze it in. So I have people in
Speaker 2: my life really making a case for meditation. So I
Speaker 2: have really tried it. It's just not a tool that
Speaker 2: works for me. So I've tried meditation, gratitude journal. I
Speaker 2: was very annoyed by my gratitude journal, which apparently is
Speaker 2: not that uncommon, So that didn't work for me. What else?
Speaker 2: I used to balance on one foot in the elevator
Speaker 2: as a way to work on my post my balance,
Speaker 2: which I just kind of forgot about and got out
Speaker 2: of the habit of it. But I do, I do
Speaker 2: think I should try to have some balance exercise for
Speaker 2: some reason. I didn't like the elevator one, but maybe
Speaker 2: some other someone. I always try to put my socks on,
Speaker 2: like you know, one fit at a time as a
Speaker 2: balanced thing. What are some other ones that didn't work
Speaker 2: for me? Usually I try ones that I think will work,
Speaker 2: so I have a pretty good hit rate, you know,
Speaker 2: because I don't try the things that don't that I
Speaker 2: don't think will work.
Speaker 1: Well. I'm very curious about meditation and gratitude because I
Speaker 1: feel like they're two of the most commonly talked about
Speaker 1: strategies for happiness and well being.
Speaker 2: And yeah, well let me say I'm not saying gratitude.
Speaker 2: I'm not I have other ways that I try to
Speaker 2: remind myself to be grateful, because I do think that's
Speaker 2: really important. But the like right down three things you're
Speaker 2: grateful for, like the gratitude journal, that form didn't work.
Speaker 2: So I'm not saying gratitude isn't important. I'm just saying
Speaker 2: the gratitude journal is.
Speaker 1: A tool absolutely with gratitude. What's your current ritual habit
Speaker 1: around gratitude?
Speaker 2: So I live in an apartment building where we have
Speaker 2: like two doors that you have to go through to
Speaker 2: get in and out of the building. So I always
Speaker 2: try to use that as like a like as a
Speaker 2: transition point to be like, oh, how happy I am
Speaker 2: to be going out into New York City, my favorite city,
Speaker 2: Or then when I'm home, Oh how happy I am
Speaker 2: to be coming home to my like cozy apartment. So
Speaker 2: I try to use sort of the forced pause of
Speaker 2: going through those two doors as a way to remind
Speaker 2: myself to be grateful right now. For this year, for
Speaker 2: my next book, which is about the Five Cents is
Speaker 2: I've been going to the Metropolitan Museum every day, which
Speaker 2: is like so much fun when it's open if person
Speaker 2: was closed for a long time, but every time I
Speaker 2: go there also because you know, they take your temperature
Speaker 2: and then you have to like get your ticket and
Speaker 2: all that. I'm always like, oh, you know, how fortunate
Speaker 2: I am. I never, never, never want to forget how
Speaker 2: fortunate I am that I can go to the Met
Speaker 2: every day and so and like everything that the Met offers,
Speaker 2: everything that it stands for. So I think I kind
Speaker 2: of use physical transitions as and then people often do
Speaker 2: it before meals. That's the thing a lot of people do.
Speaker 2: So I think it's great to have something that you use.
Speaker 2: Or another thing that I've heard people do, which I
Speaker 2: think is great is like use it as your password
Speaker 2: or your like screen saver or liker your lock screen
Speaker 2: photo so that you're reminded of it. I think those
Speaker 2: are all great things to do. I just personally did
Speaker 2: not like the right I don't and I don't like
Speaker 2: the like do it at the dinner table. That's not
Speaker 2: my family. I mean, my family's not going to cooperate
Speaker 2: with the like, let's all talk about three things we're
Speaker 2: grateful for their you know, that's not the family I got. Great,
Speaker 2: They're not going to do that with me. So I
Speaker 2: just wanted to be clear about gratitude. I'm sure, gratitude,
Speaker 2: just not so enthusiastic about the journal. Not the journal.
Speaker 1: I love the password idea. I don't think I've heard
Speaker 1: that before, and that's inspiring me actually to change some
Speaker 1: of my passwords, which.
Speaker 2: Is just such a dreary thing. Your passwords.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you have to enter them several times a day,
Speaker 1: I'm mac I do now with meditation, how do you
Speaker 1: know when to give up on a habit like you
Speaker 1: did with meditation?
Speaker 2: That is the million dollar question. I think that is
Speaker 2: really that is such a hard question because there are
Speaker 2: cases where you're like, if I would stick with it,
Speaker 2: maybe I would really have a breakthrough, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: I really would pass into a place where it would
Speaker 2: become easier, or I would I could feel this enthusiasm
Speaker 2: and you really want to give it a try, and
Speaker 2: I think so. I think I wish that I could
Speaker 2: develop kind of like a test for that, because it really,
Speaker 2: it really did. It was really very hard for me
Speaker 2: as well. And actually I form habits pretty easily, and
Speaker 2: so stopping meditation was just as hard for me as starting.
Speaker 2: Like I really had to kind of say, Okay, Gretchen,
Speaker 2: this is not working for you. We're going to take
Speaker 2: this off the daily to do list. It took a
Speaker 2: fair amount of effort. I just think it was like
Speaker 2: I just I wasn't like whatever was supposed to be happening,
Speaker 2: I was not experiencing it. I wasn't experiencing any sense
Speaker 2: of progress or any sense of change. It wasn't like
Speaker 2: I could imagine that I would get to a level
Speaker 2: where it just felt. It just was like, this just
Speaker 2: is a tool that doesn't fit my hand, but I
Speaker 2: think it can't. I think the I things do get easier.
Speaker 2: Like I mentioned quitting sugar. I think that's something where
Speaker 2: once you've stopped for a while, it gets much much
Speaker 2: easier because you lose that craving for sugar and you
Speaker 2: could just kind of you lose your taste for it
Speaker 2: a bit. So that's the kind of thing where it
Speaker 2: might be really hard and then get easier. But it's
Speaker 2: sort of like there's no there's no sign that you'll think,
Speaker 2: you know, nothing comes in the mail to tell you, okay,
Speaker 2: it's time to give up or whatever. Yeah, it's if.
Speaker 1: Only indeed, Yeah, and it's yeah, it's funny with with sugar.
Speaker 1: I quit sugar about seven years ago, and me too. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. It does. It gets a lot easier,
Speaker 1: and then it just kind of it becomes the default.
Speaker 1: I remember us out for do you know, with my
Speaker 1: work team last night, and does it came and it's
Speaker 1: just kind of like I just have no desire for it.
Speaker 2: So people don't get that, Like I think, it's really
Speaker 2: hard to understand. It's like to me, I'm like, it's
Speaker 2: like uncooked rice. It's not that it's not food. It's
Speaker 2: not that it's gross or anything. It's just it's not
Speaker 2: the kind of thing I eat. It just doesn't the
Speaker 2: bells don't ring in your head anymore. But you know,
Speaker 2: like one of the things that I that I've really
Speaker 2: found which is true for me, it sounds like it's
Speaker 2: true for you. Is like there's abstainers and moderators when
Speaker 2: it comes to strong temptation, and for people who like
Speaker 2: to give things up altogether, like we're abstainers. It's like
Speaker 2: it's kind of all or nothing. Like for me with sugar,
Speaker 2: it's like if I have one cookie, I want ten
Speaker 2: cookies and it's very hard for me to stop. But
Speaker 2: if I have no cookies, then I'm like, oh, that's
Speaker 2: not hard for me. But like with a wine, I'm
Speaker 2: not that tempted by one. So I can have half
Speaker 2: a glass of wine. But then I have a friend
Speaker 2: who's like, I can have one cookie, but for me,
Speaker 2: it's no wine or four glasses of wine. I can't
Speaker 2: have half a glass of wine. But then moderators are
Speaker 2: people who do better when they have something a little
Speaker 2: bit or sometimes. And these are the people who are like,
Speaker 2: I just keep a bar a fine chocolate in my
Speaker 2: desk drawer, and every day I have one square every
Speaker 2: other day, that's just enough, Like you should do that.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, my whole day would be like one square,
Speaker 2: two square, two squares. It's my birthday, it's rating I deserve.
Speaker 2: I just like eat the whole thing just to get
Speaker 2: it over with. So I think it is different So
Speaker 2: from stainers. I think they're often surprised and relieved to
Speaker 2: realize what a relief it is to just say like
Speaker 2: I'm just going to take this off the table. But
Speaker 2: then moderators really get kind of panicky and rebellious, and
Speaker 2: they do better when they're like, you know, you're just
Speaker 2: gonna have a few French fries, you know, just just
Speaker 2: gonna have a half a brownie and that's how they
Speaker 2: do better. So again it's like not everybody. There's no
Speaker 2: magic one size, so it's all solution. A lot of
Speaker 2: it is just experimenting and figuring out what works for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a good distinction. Is that it obviousactly like
Speaker 1: you with chocolate and wine, Chocolate could not have it
Speaker 1: here wine do not care.
Speaker 2: But also, Joe, people say to you things like, you know,
Speaker 2: what's life without a brownie? Like yeah, Like I'm like,
Speaker 2: not eating brownies makes me so much happier than brownie's ever.
Speaker 2: Did like have a brownie if you want one, but
Speaker 2: I'd rather not.
Speaker 1: Definitely, yes, and I'd rather not have the sugar.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and that you're just free of that Like
Speaker 2: that that like crazy decision. I just I find that
Speaker 2: very boring. Yeah that is now later, well does this
Speaker 2: count one? Two? I was Likeugh, just tiresome.
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about decisions. I want to
Speaker 1: know what's your process when you have to make a
Speaker 1: big decision. What does that look like for you?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a big pros and cons person, so I
Speaker 2: will make that list. But I have found a super
Speaker 2: useful test when I have a big decision where the
Speaker 2: pros and cons feel very balanced, and sometimes it's sort
Speaker 2: of like an apple and an orange, So no a
Speaker 2: pros and cons, this doesn't even really help you. So,
Speaker 2: like we were trying to decide, it's a family whether
Speaker 2: to get a dog, like five or six years ago,
Speaker 2: and it's sort of like there's all these pros, there's
Speaker 2: all these cons, but in the end, it's just like
Speaker 2: do you want to have a dog or do you
Speaker 2: not want to have a dog? And I couldn't figure
Speaker 2: out how to decide, and then I realized, so my
Speaker 2: test is choose the bigger life. And I think for
Speaker 2: some people a bigger life would be a life without
Speaker 2: a dog, because they're like I could travel more freely,
Speaker 2: I'd have more disposable income, I can always get a
Speaker 2: dog later, that's the bigger life. But I knew that
Speaker 2: for my family, the bigger life was to get the dog,
Speaker 2: and so we got our dog. We'd love our dog.
Speaker 2: Barnaby was exactly the right decision. And I've talked to
Speaker 2: people like I talked to someone where he and his
Speaker 2: wife were trying to decide whether they should move to
Speaker 2: be closer to family. So it's like now we're in
Speaker 2: the big city. It's so exciting, but life is harder.
Speaker 2: We can move back home and like that's a smaller city,
Speaker 2: so maybe we don't have the same opportunities, but we're
Speaker 2: closer to family and friends, and we're thinking about having
Speaker 2: a family, you know, and it's like pros and cons
Speaker 2: and you go back and forth. And I said, Okay,
Speaker 2: what's the bigger life. Choose the bigger life, and he
Speaker 2: was instantly He's like, the bigger life for us is
Speaker 2: to move back. That's just a bigger life for us.
Speaker 2: It's more opportunity, more friends, more family, like and he
Speaker 2: just knew it right away. And then and then he
Speaker 2: was sort of like, Okay, that's kind of like all
Speaker 2: I need to know, because only you know what the
Speaker 2: bigger life is for you. But it's it's clarifying. I
Speaker 2: think I found it very clarifying.
Speaker 1: What is about the questions that you usually ask yourself
Speaker 1: you're making decisions about how to spend your time or energy,
Speaker 1: your money.
Speaker 2: Well, I always do say is this going to make
Speaker 2: me happier? And that's how I make my decisions. So
Speaker 2: with that, like anything that goes to relationships, anything that
Speaker 2: deep into relationships, or broaden's relationships is likely to pay
Speaker 2: off in terms of happiness. Anything that helps me learn
Speaker 2: or grow that, you know, the atmosphere of growth is
Speaker 2: so important for happiness. So anything like that is something
Speaker 2: that I would be inclined to do. Something where I
Speaker 2: feel like, maybe it's the fantasy self. It's like my
Speaker 2: idea of the kind of person I like to be.
Speaker 2: I watch out for that. That's a big warning sign
Speaker 2: for me. My big, my big personal commandment is to
Speaker 2: be Gretchen. And then sometimes I'm like, that just feels
Speaker 2: like me kind of wanting to do something that would
Speaker 2: be a good idea if I were a different kind
Speaker 2: of person, like by Linen cocktail napkins because they're on sale.
Speaker 2: What am I thinking? There is no that is not
Speaker 2: Gretchen Linen Cocktail nlpkins. That would not be. That would
Speaker 2: not That's not something to spend my time, money or
Speaker 2: energy on.
Speaker 1: I love your twelve person no commandments. I got to say,
Speaker 1: can you can you talk about some of the other
Speaker 1: ones that I guess that you apply in your life?
Speaker 1: My stuff in.
Speaker 2: Well, one of them comes from my father. That's enjoy
Speaker 2: the process. And this is really helpful because you know,
Speaker 2: sometimes in life. And this goes back to decision making
Speaker 2: that you were talking about. You know, sometimes we can
Speaker 2: decide to do something that we really do not want
Speaker 2: to do at the time, maybe for years, but then
Speaker 2: we think, oh, there's going to be this big payoff,
Speaker 2: So I've got to like put up with all this
Speaker 2: badness in the in the in the process, because there'll
Speaker 2: be this payoff. So I don't like being a lot lawyer,
Speaker 2: and I don't like being an associate in law firm,
Speaker 2: but in seven years I'll be a partner and that'll
Speaker 2: be great. Or I don't enjoy writing this book, but
Speaker 2: one day it'll be a bestseller and then it'll all
Speaker 2: be worth it. The problem with you when you don't
Speaker 2: enjoy the process is that a lot of times things
Speaker 2: don't work out the way we wish they did. We're
Speaker 2: not in control of outcomes. We can we can focus
Speaker 2: on process, but we can't. We can't control the outcome.
Speaker 2: And if you enjoy the process, then the disappointment if
Speaker 2: things don't go your way is less. So I wrote
Speaker 2: a book called forty Ways look at JFK. I loved
Speaker 2: writing that book, and it flopped. It flopped so hard
Speaker 2: it didn't reach an audience. Didn't reach its audience. That's
Speaker 2: what they tell you when your book it fails. But
Speaker 2: I loved writing that book, and you know, I'm sad
Speaker 2: that it didn't find its audience, but I don't regret
Speaker 2: it because I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the process so much.
Speaker 2: But if somebody had said, oh, you should write a
Speaker 2: book about X y Z, and I had had no
Speaker 2: interest in it, and I had just forced myself to
Speaker 2: do it, thinking like, well, there would be a big
Speaker 2: payoff in the end. So if you can enjoy the process,
Speaker 2: then I always just remind myself and also just remind
Speaker 2: myself like I enjoyed the process, like, Okay, maybe today
Speaker 2: I don't feel like writing this part, but I love writing.
Speaker 2: Like as my sister's a TV writer. She has a
Speaker 2: big sign in her office that says it's a fun job,
Speaker 2: and I enjoy it. To remind herself that she picked
Speaker 2: TV writing, this is what she wants, and then I think.
Speaker 2: One of the most thought provoking happiness project resolutions for
Speaker 2: me has been to imitate a spiritual master. One of
Speaker 2: my spiritual masters is Saint Trez of Leziu, which I'm
Speaker 2: not even Catholic, but I am like obsessed with her
Speaker 2: book Story of a Soul, and in there, Saint Terrez
Speaker 2: says that when one loves, one does not calculate, and
Speaker 2: so one of my personal resolutions is no calculation, because
Speaker 2: I can be a bean counter like, well, if I
Speaker 2: did this for you, husband, then you should do this
Speaker 2: for me. And you took a nap yesterday, so it's
Speaker 2: my turn today, you know, and that's just not good.
Speaker 2: You should just give and not calculate. So no calculation
Speaker 2: comes from Saint Terrees.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's nearly time for an ad to break, but
Speaker 1: can I ask a favor? If you are enjoying how
Speaker 1: I work, I would love it if you could eat,
Speaker 1: pause and leave a quick review for the podcast. I
Speaker 1: love getting feedback from listeners, and everyone has left reviews
Speaker 1: or star ratings. Thank you, thank you, thank you, you
Speaker 1: guys rock It's just awesome getting feedback. So thank you
Speaker 1: and thank you if you plan to do that today.
Speaker 1: After the break, Gretchen will be back talking about how
Speaker 1: you can make your own commandments, Gretchen's method for handling criticism,
Speaker 1: and why she picks a word of the year, and
Speaker 1: what her word is for this year and how she's
Speaker 1: using that. What advice would you give to people who
Speaker 1: are listening to these personal commandments and thinking, oh, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't mind creating my own list, Like what was your process?
Speaker 2: Oh I so highly recommend this exercise. Yes, so I
Speaker 2: have twelve, but you know that's just kind of the
Speaker 2: number that I came up with. Often people have fewer
Speaker 2: or more. This is a very very creative, really compelling
Speaker 2: exercise to help you know yourself. So this isn't sort
Speaker 2: of your to do list, you know, get my hair
Speaker 2: cut regularly, and it's not. On the Happier podcast, we
Speaker 2: talk about like your twenty one for twenty one list,
Speaker 2: which is like what are twenty one things you want
Speaker 2: to get done in twenty twenty one that's super fun,
Speaker 2: Like on mine it was like watch mad Men finally,
Speaker 2: or you know, or things like deal with my email archive,
Speaker 2: which was like a mess that was like haunting me.
Speaker 2: Those are more like things that would be done or
Speaker 2: things you want to start. Personal commandments is more about
Speaker 2: like what are your deepest principles and what are the
Speaker 2: principles that you want to guide your whole life, So
Speaker 2: like enjoy the process or choose joy I mean or
Speaker 2: is something where it really is kind of a transcendent
Speaker 2: principle that you want to live by. And it took
Speaker 2: a long time. I worked on mine for months because
Speaker 2: I would add to it, and then I would decide
Speaker 2: that two things were really the same thing, just in
Speaker 2: different words, and then I had to pick one, and
Speaker 2: then some sort of didn't rise to the level of
Speaker 2: being a personal commandment. But I think it's really a
Speaker 2: creative way to do self reflection and to think about
Speaker 2: your aims for yourself.
Speaker 1: I wanted around sort of handling criticism when you know,
Speaker 1: as someone who wants to achieve and maintain happiness. So
Speaker 1: what's your approach to dealing with criticism and negative feedback.
Speaker 2: Well, one thing is if I wouldn't listen to their advice,
Speaker 2: I won't listen to their criticism. So I try to
Speaker 2: not expose myself to the critics, like drive by criticism.
Speaker 2: So like I don't read any reviews of my books,
Speaker 2: and I don't read any profiles of me. I try
Speaker 2: to read about nothing because it just gets in my
Speaker 2: head and often I will overreact to it, you know,
Speaker 2: like one person says one thing, I had this with
Speaker 2: my audiobook, Like I for my book Happier at Home.
Speaker 2: Like someone had said, like, oh, why is Gretchen reading
Speaker 2: her book? She's not a professional actor, which is true, right,
Speaker 2: and so I thought, oh, that's why they said that
Speaker 2: for Happiness the Happiness Project. So when it came time
Speaker 2: to record Happier at Home, I thought, oh, well, I
Speaker 2: really want to do the better thing for listeners, and
Speaker 2: so I'll have it. You know, I have an actor
Speaker 2: do it. I won't do it myself, even though I
Speaker 2: enjoy doing it. And then all these other people were like, oh,
Speaker 2: it was so much better when Gretchen retted herself, and
Speaker 2: I was like, why did I listen to one person?
Speaker 2: That just happened across my consciousness, you know. And so
Speaker 2: I try not to open myself up because I feel
Speaker 2: like that's distorting. I have so many people who give
Speaker 2: me criticism, people that I respect and admire, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: let me stay open to their criticism. That's not easy either,
Speaker 2: but so I don't like expose myself to that. I
Speaker 2: do read emails from everyone, and like with the Happier podcast,
Speaker 2: we get a tremendous amount of email, and I get
Speaker 2: a lot of reader or email too, and of course
Speaker 2: on social media, so I definitely hear from people and
Speaker 2: with criticism. One thing I remind myself is is that
Speaker 2: a strong voice repels as well as attracts, and that's
Speaker 2: true of anyone that you can think of. Nothing is
Speaker 2: universally liked. And if I try to make myself so
Speaker 2: vanilla that everyone will like me, then no one will
Speaker 2: be interested. So I just have to accept that like
Speaker 2: I am who I am, you might find it interesting,
Speaker 2: you may not, And that's just the way things go.
Speaker 2: I can't please everyone, but I do try to stay
Speaker 2: open to it. And like when I'm going to get
Speaker 2: a big edit, as I said, I'm in that process
Speaker 2: right now. Like I will literally like have a mental
Speaker 2: imagery thing that I do where I like like imagine
Speaker 2: myself opening my heart, opening my chest to be like
Speaker 2: I'm open. My word of the year, I pick a
Speaker 2: word for the year every year. My word for this
Speaker 2: year is open. I want to stay open to hearing
Speaker 2: what people say. Often I have to think about it.
Speaker 2: I will warn people who are working with me, like
Speaker 2: I always say no, I'm always really defensive. I always
Speaker 2: say I can't do it and then give me time,
Speaker 2: Like at least twenty minutes and then I'll be like,
Speaker 2: I see your point. I see how I can do it.
Speaker 2: That's a good point. Okay, Now I can't wait to
Speaker 2: do it because you're on a resent, right, and I
Speaker 2: can't wait to make a sit.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I just have to let myself go through that process.
Speaker 2: So part of it kind of knowing how I'll respond,
Speaker 2: and then I will kind of go into shock kind of.
Speaker 2: I often will. If I get an edit, I'll look
Speaker 2: at it and then I won't expect myself to do anything.
Speaker 2: I'll just like go to bed early and start it
Speaker 2: because I am such a morning person the next day
Speaker 2: because I think it is hard to get criticisms, so
Speaker 2: I always want to be at my best when i'm
Speaker 2: when I'm starting to work through it, like had a
Speaker 2: good night's sleep, kind of ready for it, not just
Speaker 2: kind of drive by.
Speaker 1: I love that image of like opening your heart and
Speaker 1: you said that open is your word for this year.
Speaker 1: What's your process for deciding on your word for the year.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so fun. Yeah, I've had one word theme
Speaker 2: for years now and I highly recommend it again. It's
Speaker 2: sort of you know, people get so tired of making
Speaker 2: New Year's resolutions. And yet it's very valuable to set
Speaker 2: an aim for yourself and to reflect. I think around
Speaker 2: the new year, this is a way to kind of
Speaker 2: think like, well, what's the big idea? So for me,
Speaker 2: I was going to be doing a lot of new
Speaker 2: things this year, so I really did want to stay
Speaker 2: open and remind myself, like, think about there are other
Speaker 2: ways to do things, and they're you know, just stay
Speaker 2: open in the past, Like, I have a lot of
Speaker 2: material and so one year. One year my theme was
Speaker 2: repurpose because I wanted to figure out how to make
Speaker 2: new things out of stuff that I'd already created. One year,
Speaker 2: my word was lighter because I wanted to kind of
Speaker 2: it was lighten up. My sister had lighter. One year
Speaker 2: I had lighten up. So I wanted to lighten up
Speaker 2: kind of my mood. I wanted to have kind of
Speaker 2: a more lighthearted outlook and a more light hearted demeanor.
Speaker 2: I can be kind of serious and kind of charging ahead,
Speaker 2: you know. I wanted to lighten up, and then I
Speaker 2: also wanted to get rid of a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: I wrote this book Outer Order, inter Calm because I
Speaker 2: do feel like outer Order contributes to intercolm for me,
Speaker 2: and I thought let me just get rid of a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff that I don't need. User love if
Speaker 2: I lighten up my my space. I thought I would
Speaker 2: feel I thought it would help me lighten up mentally,
Speaker 2: which it did. Oh my gosh, I love. I love
Speaker 2: I have an empty shelf. I love my empty shp.
Speaker 2: I love figuring out ways to create more order and
Speaker 2: more space.
Speaker 1: On the topic of having out of order, and I
Speaker 1: loved your book out of Order in a com I
Speaker 1: think I read it like a week after it came out.
Speaker 2: I was very excited to just vow that one. Oh
Speaker 2: thank you. It was such a fun like It's like
Speaker 2: it's like a hype book. It's like to get you
Speaker 2: pumped up to clear clutter. Right. It's like it's not
Speaker 2: even it's not like a narrative. It's just a bunch
Speaker 2: of ideas. It was great.
Speaker 1: I want to know what what are your favorite ideas
Speaker 1: that you wrote about in that book?
Speaker 2: Ooh so many. Well, one is the one minute rule.
Speaker 2: This is that anything you can do in less than
Speaker 2: a minute, do without delay. So if you can hang
Speaker 2: up your coat instead of throwing on a chair, or
Speaker 2: even better, if you can put up hooks, so you
Speaker 2: can put your coat on a hook instead of on
Speaker 2: a hanger, that's even better. Or like if you can
Speaker 2: put a document in the folder instead of just leaving
Speaker 2: it out on the desk, or you know, put a
Speaker 2: wrapper into the trash. I just do that with that delay.
Speaker 2: That gets rid of sort of the scum of clutter
Speaker 2: on the surface of life.
Speaker 1: Now, I imagine that you're someone that gets a lot
Speaker 1: of requests for your time and that you would have
Speaker 1: to say no very frequently in your life. What is
Speaker 1: your strategy for saying no? Like, how do you say no?
Speaker 2: Well, get back to the four tendencies. This is something
Speaker 2: a poulterers are good at too, which is why they
Speaker 2: can sometimes seem cold, because they find it pretty easy
Speaker 2: to say no when they want to. But I can
Speaker 2: sometimes say like, I'll just say yes too easily because
Speaker 2: I know I can do it, so I'll just say okay, yes, whatever. Actually,
Speaker 2: I'm married to a questioner, and so it helps me
Speaker 2: that he's like, why would you do that? So sometimes
Speaker 2: I'll ask my husband Jamie if I should do something,
Speaker 2: or I'll think, well, what would Jamie say? I don't
Speaker 2: even need to ask him, I just need to visualize
Speaker 2: him his face being like quizzically, why would you do that?
Speaker 2: So that helps me. And then often, you know, I
Speaker 2: just you know, I am like, I've got a big
Speaker 2: writing deadline that I have to meet, and I think
Speaker 2: people are pretty sympathetic to that. People get it, and
Speaker 2: so I just say, you know, I've got a big
Speaker 2: right deadlines, so I have to I'm saying no to
Speaker 2: a lot of things. Unfortunately I can't do it.
Speaker 1: Where do you go for inspiration and new ideas, you know,
Speaker 1: particularly when you're thinking about what is the next book
Speaker 1: that you're going to write?
Speaker 2: My next book idea always has come to me magically,
Speaker 2: so that's wonderful. It just comes out of whatever I've
Speaker 2: been naturally thinking about. So I feel super lucky about that.
Speaker 2: But my inspiration comes from two things. For shirt, reading,
Speaker 2: which again like I read all the time because that's
Speaker 2: where I get ideas, or talking to other people, just
Speaker 2: talking to the people around me, and I guess reading.
Speaker 2: I read a ton of memoirs and biography, so that's
Speaker 2: kind of like talking to people as well, or reading novels,
Speaker 2: but just talking to people. Like some of my biggest
Speaker 2: insights have come from the most casual conversations, like a
Speaker 2: friend of mine once said to me, She's like, you know,
Speaker 2: the funny thing about me is I'm happier when I exercise.
Speaker 2: And you know, when I was in high school, I
Speaker 2: was on the track team and I never missed track practice.
Speaker 2: So why can't I go running on my own at now?
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, that's a great, great question. It's
Speaker 2: the same person, it's the same behavior. One time it
Speaker 2: was no problem for you. Now you can't do it.
Speaker 2: What's going on? And I came up with like a
Speaker 2: big long list of things, And in the end, that's
Speaker 2: what led me to understand my full tendencies framework. Or
Speaker 2: there were people where they would say to me, because
Speaker 2: you know, because I write about kind of happiness and habits,
Speaker 2: I'm very interested in how people feel about New Year's resolutions.
Speaker 2: I talk to people about New Year's resolutions a lot,
Speaker 2: not so much for what they do, but how they
Speaker 2: think about it. And there's a kind of person that
Speaker 2: I ran into over and over where if I asked
Speaker 2: about New Year's resolutions, they would say, oh, I don't
Speaker 2: do New Year's resolutions. I'll make a resolution anytime it
Speaker 2: makes sense for me, but I wouldn't do it on
Speaker 2: January first. Because January first is an arbitrary date. And
Speaker 2: I thought, well, that's interesting, because the arbitrariness of January
Speaker 2: first never really bothered me, but clearly for like some
Speaker 2: group of people, it was very significant. And so I
Speaker 2: was like, what do I make of it? That pattern,
Speaker 2: and again that led me to my four tendency. So
Speaker 2: a lot of times it's just these casual things that
Speaker 2: people say that send me off in some direction that
Speaker 2: ends up being very I mean, it comes from reading too,
Speaker 2: Like I was reading one of my spiritual masters is
Speaker 2: Samuel Johnson, and there's a line it's not even in
Speaker 2: the life of Samuel Johnson. It's like it's like a
Speaker 2: comment of his that was written down where somebody offered
Speaker 2: him wine. This is doctor Johnson, and he said they
Speaker 2: asked h if he would take a little wine, and
Speaker 2: he said, I can't take a little child. Abstinence is
Speaker 2: as easy to me as temperance would be difficult. And
Speaker 2: when I read that, that's when I realized, like you,
Speaker 2: I'm an abstainer, like Johnson. Abstinence is easy, temperance is hard.
Speaker 2: I can have none, but I can't have a little bit.
Speaker 2: And it was reading that line from Johnson that all
Speaker 2: of a sudden made me realize this thing about myself.
Speaker 2: And I thought I was the only one who is
Speaker 2: like this, because you know, everybody tells you, oh, moderation
Speaker 2: and is pleasant to the wise, and you should follow
Speaker 2: the eighty twenty rule. All that I thought I was
Speaker 2: the only one. That I started asking around. It turns
Speaker 2: out huge number of people are like this. So I
Speaker 2: get my insights really from reading or from other people.
Speaker 1: Do you have a process for I guess, processing those
Speaker 1: those things that you're hearing, those observations, or is it
Speaker 1: just kind of happening in the background for you.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting because I do have a
Speaker 2: lot of notes. So I have a quotes thing where
Speaker 2: I'll write down quotes. I have my book of Aphorisms.
Speaker 2: I have notes on all different subjects. And I also
Speaker 2: have something called notes, which is like notes that don't
Speaker 2: go anywhere else, which you would think would be miscellaneous,
Speaker 2: which I said not to do, but it's actually different
Speaker 2: for miscellaneous. But so I have all that. But what
Speaker 2: I have found is that often I will feel like
Speaker 2: writings taking a note, I will feel that something is significant,
Speaker 2: but I will not understand its significance. I will be like, why,
Speaker 2: I don't understand why I'm even bothering to write this down,
Speaker 2: But I, you know, okay, fine, I'll put this down,
Speaker 2: and then later, maybe years later, I will understand its significance.
Speaker 2: And that is super exciting when I realized that I've
Speaker 2: actually been reflecting and researching something for years, even though
Speaker 2: I hadn't really grasped the subject yet, because I think
Speaker 2: a lot of times it takes me a long time
Speaker 2: to understand how things fit in. When I was writing
Speaker 2: my book about habit change better than before, I would
Speaker 2: often write down examples of things that people were doing
Speaker 2: or saying, or that I read about, and I would
Speaker 2: be like, I don't understand how this fits into this system.
Speaker 2: This seems kind of relevant to have it change, but
Speaker 2: I don't really understand how. And it was only when
Speaker 2: I got deep, deep, deep, deep into it that all
Speaker 2: the pieces started sliding into place. So sometimes I just
Speaker 2: sort of have to trust to the future and assume
Speaker 2: that at some point I'll understand why something seemed significant,
Speaker 2: and I do find myself pondering, like I'll often be
Speaker 2: struck by something and I'll have to really think about, like,
Speaker 2: why did that seem so meaningful to me or what
Speaker 2: was the lesson there? Like, sometimes it takes some thinking
Speaker 2: to figure out what the lesson was.
Speaker 1: Something I think about when I read your work, and
Speaker 1: you know, when I consume other people's work that does
Speaker 1: sort of like yours and really inspire me to be
Speaker 1: better and you know, lead a kind of richer life
Speaker 1: is I think about what can I apply as a parent.
Speaker 1: I've got a seven year old daughter, and I'm constantly thinking,
Speaker 1: how does this apply to her? So I'm wondering what
Speaker 1: do you do personally as a parent, Like what are
Speaker 1: some of the things that you you know, write about
Speaker 1: for adults, but you help I guess or apply or
Speaker 1: teach to your kids.
Speaker 2: Well, one thing that has helped me tremendously as a
Speaker 2: parent and also just in life with other adults is
Speaker 2: to accept the reality of other people's feelings. Because I
Speaker 2: had a bad habit of saying things like, oh, you're
Speaker 2: not hungry, or you're not called, or you love you
Speaker 2: love going to Grandma Grandpa's house, or you know, you're
Speaker 2: not scared of the pool. And that's whether you're a
Speaker 2: child or an adult. That is very annoying and counterproductive.
Speaker 2: And I realize now it's much better to just acknowledge
Speaker 2: the reality of other people's feelings. Like we just ate,
Speaker 2: but you still feel hungry, or you usually you love
Speaker 2: going to the swimming pool, but today you're you're just
Speaker 2: feeling very apprehensive. You don't feel like going into the
Speaker 2: swimming pool. It's like and often when you tell people
Speaker 2: that you acknowledge the reality of how they're feeling, you
Speaker 2: feel so much better. It's like my husband, it's like,
Speaker 2: you know something, like it sounds like it was really
Speaker 2: annoying to be on hold for half an hour. Instead
Speaker 2: of being like, well, what's the big deal? Like what
Speaker 2: you know, it's not such a big deal to call
Speaker 2: the cable company, It's like that just makes you feel angry.
Speaker 2: So that's something that's really that's really helpful. I mean,
Speaker 2: one of the things that I really try to work
Speaker 2: on is just remembering that just because something works for
Speaker 2: me doesn't mean that it would work for my children.
Speaker 2: And like, one way this comes up, it's like I'm
Speaker 2: a super desk person. I need a desk. I realized,
Speaker 2: like I need a desk like every ten feet, Like
Speaker 2: I only work at a desk. I want to be
Speaker 2: at a desk. I want a desk everywhere I go,
Speaker 2: and it was really hard for me. I was always
Speaker 2: trying to get my kids to work at a desk,
Speaker 2: like they work on their bed, they work on the floor,
Speaker 2: They work in these like positions that look so uncomfortable
Speaker 2: to me. And then I went into this was a
Speaker 2: long time, this is you know, before the before times.
Speaker 2: I went into a we work or you know, one
Speaker 2: of those places, and it had a sitting thing. It
Speaker 2: wasn't a chair, and it wasn't a sofa, and it
Speaker 2: was like a bed, only kind of in a sofa form.
Speaker 2: And I saw somebody sitting on it and that was
Speaker 2: the way my daughter worked on her laptop. And I
Speaker 2: was like, this is the way people work, you know,
Speaker 2: we work is acknowledging. Some people like to sit like this.
Speaker 2: This is a way that some people were. I would
Speaker 2: never work like that. It was desperately uncomfortable to me,
Speaker 2: but some people do. And then I stopped hassling my
Speaker 2: daughters to sit at a desk, because why why is
Speaker 2: it any of my business if they sit at a desk,
Speaker 2: If they if they get their work done, and they
Speaker 2: are perfectly content and productive, they should be able to
Speaker 2: do their work in their own way, And so part
Speaker 2: of it is just like, just because something works really
Speaker 2: well for me doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work
Speaker 2: for someone else. And if they're doing it, if they're
Speaker 2: doing fine, I shouldn't. I shouldn't I shouldn't try to
Speaker 2: persuade them to do it a different way.
Speaker 1: How about helping children foam good habits?
Speaker 2: Well, the most important thing to do is to be
Speaker 2: a good example. One of the there's twenty one strategies
Speaker 2: of habit change, and one of the most powerful strategies
Speaker 2: is the strategy of other people. And we pick up
Speaker 2: habits from other people in a flash, good habits and
Speaker 2: bad habits. And if you want your children to read,
Speaker 2: you read. If you want your children to go to
Speaker 2: bed on time, you go to bed on time. If
Speaker 2: you want your children to put down their phone, you
Speaker 2: put down your phone. First of all, it'll make you
Speaker 2: much more convincing when you suggest that they do it,
Speaker 2: and you're just showing that behavior. And what I have found,
Speaker 2: you know, one of the truths, one of this kind
Speaker 2: of sad truths about happiness is the only people we
Speaker 2: can the only person we can change is ourselves. You know,
Speaker 2: we can only change ourselves. But what I happened is
Speaker 2: that when I change, a relationship changes, and when I change,
Speaker 2: the atmosphere of my household changes, and if I do something,
Speaker 2: other people sort of come along. Not always and not perfectly,
Speaker 2: but often and more often than you might think. So, say,
Speaker 2: when I started getting up, you know, like I get
Speaker 2: up at six every day, And what I found is
Speaker 2: that when I get up, I sort of start everything moving,
Speaker 2: and so I think that makes other people get up.
Speaker 2: Maybe they don't get up when I get up, but
Speaker 2: they probably get up earlier than they otherwise would. Or
Speaker 2: when I started making sure that I gave everybody a
Speaker 2: really warm hello and goodbye every time they went in
Speaker 2: and out of the apartment, that made other people more
Speaker 2: likely to do it too. We all talked about it,
Speaker 2: but it was really important that one person was really
Speaker 2: doing it. And then I think when one person and
Speaker 2: starts doing it, then you sort of get swept up
Speaker 2: in it. So setting like doing it yourself is often
Speaker 2: very important. And then also you know, just deciding what
Speaker 2: happens if you ignore this some things, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you would like their bed to be made, but is
Speaker 2: that is that the argument you feel like having is
Speaker 2: that is that is that what you feel like spending
Speaker 2: your time and energy on. Maybe not? Maybe so it
Speaker 2: might be really really important to you, but maybe not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that one now, Gretchen Gosh time is
Speaker 1: flown by for people that want to consume more of
Speaker 1: what you are doing. What is the best way for
Speaker 1: people to do that?
Speaker 2: Well, if you'd like to listen more, I have a
Speaker 2: weekly podcast that I do with my sister who's a
Speaker 2: TV show runner, called Happier with Gretchen Ruben, where we
Speaker 2: talk about how to be happier spoiler alert and if
Speaker 2: you go to my website Gretchen Reuben dot com, I
Speaker 2: have that's a kind of a clearing house for everything
Speaker 2: about my books. I have a lot of free resources.
Speaker 2: I have a ton of you know, material there on
Speaker 2: habits and good and human nature and happiness generally. We
Speaker 2: talked some about the four tendancies. If people want to
Speaker 2: know their tendency and get a little report and find
Speaker 2: out what that means, they can go to quiz dot
Speaker 2: Gretchen Ruben dot com or just look on my website
Speaker 2: for the quiz. Like more than three million people have
Speaker 2: taken that quiz and it's free and it's quick, and
Speaker 2: we'll tell you your tendency and then I'm on social
Speaker 2: media everywhere as Gretchen Ruben, and I love to get
Speaker 2: insights and comments and questions from people, so I love,
Speaker 2: I love to engage with readers and listeners, So hit
Speaker 2: me up.
Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing, Well, Gretchen, I've just loved talking to you.
Speaker 1: After following your work for over a decade, it's just
Speaker 1: been such a joy to chat. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I so enjoyed the conversation. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Helloi, That is it for today's show. Now, if you
Speaker 1: are not a subscriber or follow up of How I Work,
Speaker 1: you might want to hit subscribe or follow wherever you're
Speaker 1: listening to this from because next week I'm very excited
Speaker 1: to have Yale professor Marissa King on the show. She
Speaker 1: recently wrote a book called Social Chemistry that is all
Speaker 1: about how to build our social networks. And I chatted
Speaker 1: to Marissa about how she's gone about building networks in
Speaker 1: her own life, from professional networks through to friendships, and
Speaker 1: it is a fascinating chat. So hit subscribe. How I
Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead
Speaker 1: said Studios. The producer for this episode was the amazing
Speaker 1: Jedi Coder and thank you to Martin Imba who does
Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound awesome. See you
Speaker 1: next time.