1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: You probably know that creating good habits can help make 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: you more productive, but can habits make you happier? For me, 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: I quit sugar seven years ago, which makes me a 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: whole lot happier because I no longer have to worry 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: about that awful sugar crash that followed. And my daily 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: exercise habit definitely makes me happier too, as does an 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: evening reading habit that I've recently started to build. But 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: could I be doing more? Is there a way that 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: I could level up that happiness? And could I be 10 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: making decisions in a different way to bring me even 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: more happiness? Well, today I get to ask those very 12 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: questions of my own personal happiness guru Gretchen Ruben. Gretchen 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: is the host of the popular weekly podcast Happier with 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: Gretchen Ruben, and she's the author of several books, including 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: the international bestseller The Happiness Project. After Amantha Imba. I'm 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 17 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: and this is how I work, a show about how 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. I've been a 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: fan of Gretchen's for over a decade, and the first 20 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: thing I wanted to know was what does someone who 21 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: was dedicated over ten years of their life to thinking 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: about and researching happiness do in their own life to 23 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: be happier. What are the habits in Gretchen's life that 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: contribute most to her happiness. 25 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I love a great habit, So I 26 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: have a lot I've contributed to my happiness. I would 27 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: say getting to sleep on time and waking up at 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: the same time every day. I'm a real morning person, 29 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: so I do my hardest work early in the morning, 30 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: and I like it when it's kind of quiet, and 31 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 2: so I always get up at the same time every day. 32 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: I one of these people who's a super low car person. 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: I have a crazy sweet tooth, and the way that 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: I dealt with that was just by quitting sugar and 35 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: basically all carbs. So that's not a habit that everybody 36 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: would want to follow, but that's a habit I love. 37 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: I write every day. That's just to always stay in 38 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 2: my work. That's a habit. I kiss my husband first thing, 39 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: before I get out of bed in the morning, before 40 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 2: I check my phone, or before my feet hit the ground. 41 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 2: That makes me happy. I have a lot of habits 42 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 2: that make me happy. 43 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: I want to ask about your writing habit and also 44 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: your reading habit. Let's start with your writing habit. What 45 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: does that look like? Can you set the scene as 46 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: to you know, if we were watching you do that, 47 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: what would we observe in terms of how you form 48 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: that habit? 49 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I write books, and so the rhythm 50 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 2: of my day really depends on where I am in 51 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: a book cycle. So right now I'm doing editing, so 52 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: that means most of it's already written, but I'm doing editing, 53 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: which tends to be like you're working on the things 54 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 2: that aren't working. Tends to be a little bit hard, 55 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: but you have stuff to work with. So it's like, 56 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 2: say from six in the morning until like nine or ten, 57 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: and I'm really focused on editing things that are really hard. 58 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: And then after that I start doing things more like 59 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: doing interviews or working on a podcast episode or like 60 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 2: things that are intellectually challenging but don't take the same 61 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 2: level of concentration, and sort of as my day goes on, 62 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: I if I can, if I have control, I will 63 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: kind of do increasingly less taxing tasks. But I write 64 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: every day and I read every day. For me reading. 65 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: It's like my it's kind of my cubicle and my playground. 66 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: I love to read. I read for fun all the time, 67 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: but then I also read a ton to give myself 68 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 2: ideas and you know, and for research. So both of 69 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: those things are are part of reading for me. 70 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: And do you have a specific method when you're reading 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, making notes or references? What 72 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: does that look like? 73 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: Well, that is a great question because actually I spend 74 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: a huge amount of time with notes. And so when 75 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: I read, I'll mark up a book, you know, in 76 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: the if it's a library book, I do it, you know, 77 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: with like sticky notes, and if it's my book, I'll 78 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: just massively mark it up. And then once I'm done 79 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: with the book, I'll go back and then sort of 80 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: go through and take all the notes and so, like 81 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: I have list of quotations, I do one Sudden's aphorisms, 82 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 2: I have multiple documents on multiple subjects that I might 83 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: be tracking. So doing notes is really fun, but it 84 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 2: actually does take a lot of time, and so that 85 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: is part of my kind of my reading regimens, so 86 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: I have to sort of work that in as well. 87 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: But like that's something I would do later in the 88 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: day because it's taxing, but it's not that taxing. I 89 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: sort of have to figure out where it plugs into 90 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: all my stuff, but I you know, it's basically copying 91 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 2: or digesting something from it from a source. 92 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: And what about at the end of the day, do 93 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: you have habits or rituals to disconnect from work or 94 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: reconnect with family or anything like that. 95 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: I guess what in my habits are sort of quitting time. 96 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: So I will sort of say, like, oh, in ten 97 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: minutes and it's just quitting time. And I'll take ten 98 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 2: minutes and I tidy up my office. So you know, 99 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: if I got out papers, I'll put them back in 100 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: a file or I'll put it back on my courtboard, 101 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: and I'll throw away my trash and I'll put I 102 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: get pens out. I don't know what this happens to me, 103 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: but like I get pens out of my pen cup, 104 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: like fifty pens that I put the pens back at 105 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 2: the pen cup. And I like this because you know, 106 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: for most people, like for me, outer order contributes to 107 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: intercolm and I find that when I just take ten 108 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: minutes to clean up, it sort of clears my mind 109 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: and it does act as that kind of transition, and 110 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: then when I come back in in the morning, it 111 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: feels like it's so much easier to sit down because 112 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: I'm not finding my way through a bunch of like 113 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: piles of books that I took the notes on, or 114 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: you know, articles to read, or you know, just the 115 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 2: stuff that accumulates sweat, sweater that I took off. You know, 116 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: I get I put all that stuff away. So I 117 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: do like a ten minute closer every night and then 118 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: and then I feel like, okay, I'm ready to call 119 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: it a day. 120 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: How did you form that habit? Because I feel like 121 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: there'd be a lot of people listening, going like that 122 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: sounds wonderful. But for some reason, I just leave my 123 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: desk a mess at the end of the day because 124 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: that's the easiest thing to do. 125 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: Well, you know. So I have my four tendencies framework, 126 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: and one of the things about me that I've learned 127 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: is I'm an upholder in that framework, and habits tend 128 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 2: to come pretty easily to upholders, Like that's one of 129 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: the that's one of the nice things about being an 130 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: up folder. There's downside, so that is one of the upsides. 131 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: So that kind of thing, once I was sort of like, oh, 132 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: I want to make this a habit. It wasn't that 133 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: hard for me, and I will say that it's not 134 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 2: a particularly difficult have it. It's just ten minutes, and 135 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 2: it's not cleaning. It's not like going through your files 136 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: and deciding like what to keep. It's literally just putting 137 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: things away. I find that very kind of soothing. It's 138 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: like something that you can put on your to do 139 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: list and cross it off right away. 140 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: I'm actually curious, what are some habits that you've tried 141 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: over the years that didn't really work for you? 142 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: Okay, meditation, which I've tried twice, And of course people 143 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: will tell you that like the fact that you that 144 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 2: meditation doesn't work for you just means that you need 145 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: meditation all the more. But I just have to say 146 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: I've given it two solid tries. I know, I know 147 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: and respect so many people who I'm friends with Dan Harris, 148 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: who is the ten percent Happier app and book, and 149 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: he really convinced me. My college roommate meditates for like 150 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: two or three hours a day and like more if 151 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: she can squeeze it in. So I have people in 152 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: my life really making a case for meditation. So I 153 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 2: have really tried it. It's just not a tool that 154 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: works for me. So I've tried meditation, gratitude journal. I 155 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 2: was very annoyed by my gratitude journal, which apparently is 156 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: not that uncommon, So that didn't work for me. What else? 157 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: I used to balance on one foot in the elevator 158 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: as a way to work on my post my balance, 159 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: which I just kind of forgot about and got out 160 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: of the habit of it. But I do, I do 161 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: think I should try to have some balance exercise for 162 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: some reason. I didn't like the elevator one, but maybe 163 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: some other someone. I always try to put my socks on, 164 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: like you know, one fit at a time as a 165 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: balanced thing. What are some other ones that didn't work 166 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: for me? Usually I try ones that I think will work, 167 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: so I have a pretty good hit rate, you know, 168 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: because I don't try the things that don't that I 169 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: don't think will work. 170 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: Well. I'm very curious about meditation and gratitude because I 171 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: feel like they're two of the most commonly talked about 172 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: strategies for happiness and well being. 173 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: And yeah, well let me say I'm not saying gratitude. 174 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: I'm not I have other ways that I try to 175 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: remind myself to be grateful, because I do think that's 176 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: really important. But the like right down three things you're 177 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: grateful for, like the gratitude journal, that form didn't work. 178 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: So I'm not saying gratitude isn't important. I'm just saying 179 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 2: the gratitude journal is. 180 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: A tool absolutely with gratitude. What's your current ritual habit 181 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: around gratitude? 182 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: So I live in an apartment building where we have 183 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: like two doors that you have to go through to 184 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 2: get in and out of the building. So I always 185 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 2: try to use that as like a like as a 186 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 2: transition point to be like, oh, how happy I am 187 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: to be going out into New York City, my favorite city, 188 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: Or then when I'm home, Oh how happy I am 189 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 2: to be coming home to my like cozy apartment. So 190 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 2: I try to use sort of the forced pause of 191 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 2: going through those two doors as a way to remind 192 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: myself to be grateful right now. For this year, for 193 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: my next book, which is about the Five Cents is 194 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: I've been going to the Metropolitan Museum every day, which 195 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: is like so much fun when it's open if person 196 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: was closed for a long time, but every time I 197 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: go there also because you know, they take your temperature 198 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: and then you have to like get your ticket and 199 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,479 Speaker 2: all that. I'm always like, oh, you know, how fortunate 200 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 2: I am. I never, never, never want to forget how 201 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: fortunate I am that I can go to the Met 202 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 2: every day and so and like everything that the Met offers, 203 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: everything that it stands for. So I think I kind 204 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: of use physical transitions as and then people often do 205 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: it before meals. That's the thing a lot of people do. 206 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: So I think it's great to have something that you use. 207 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 2: Or another thing that I've heard people do, which I 208 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: think is great is like use it as your password 209 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 2: or your like screen saver or liker your lock screen 210 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 2: photo so that you're reminded of it. I think those 211 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: are all great things to do. I just personally did 212 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: not like the right I don't and I don't like 213 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 2: the like do it at the dinner table. That's not 214 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: my family. I mean, my family's not going to cooperate 215 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: with the like, let's all talk about three things we're 216 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: grateful for their you know, that's not the family I got. Great, 217 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: They're not going to do that with me. So I 218 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 2: just wanted to be clear about gratitude. I'm sure, gratitude, 219 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: just not so enthusiastic about the journal. Not the journal. 220 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: I love the password idea. I don't think I've heard 221 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: that before, and that's inspiring me actually to change some 222 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: of my passwords, which. 223 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: Is just such a dreary thing. Your passwords. 224 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you have to enter them several times a day, 225 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: I'm mac I do now with meditation, how do you 226 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: know when to give up on a habit like you 227 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: did with meditation? 228 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: That is the million dollar question. I think that is 229 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: really that is such a hard question because there are 230 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: cases where you're like, if I would stick with it, 231 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: maybe I would really have a breakthrough, you know, maybe 232 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: I really would pass into a place where it would 233 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: become easier, or I would I could feel this enthusiasm 234 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: and you really want to give it a try, and 235 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: I think so. I think I wish that I could 236 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: develop kind of like a test for that, because it really, 237 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: it really did. It was really very hard for me 238 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: as well. And actually I form habits pretty easily, and 239 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 2: so stopping meditation was just as hard for me as starting. 240 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: Like I really had to kind of say, Okay, Gretchen, 241 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: this is not working for you. We're going to take 242 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: this off the daily to do list. It took a 243 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: fair amount of effort. I just think it was like 244 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: I just I wasn't like whatever was supposed to be happening, 245 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: I was not experiencing it. I wasn't experiencing any sense 246 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: of progress or any sense of change. It wasn't like 247 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 2: I could imagine that I would get to a level 248 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: where it just felt. It just was like, this just 249 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: is a tool that doesn't fit my hand, but I 250 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: think it can't. I think the I things do get easier. 251 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: Like I mentioned quitting sugar. I think that's something where 252 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: once you've stopped for a while, it gets much much 253 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: easier because you lose that craving for sugar and you 254 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,719 Speaker 2: could just kind of you lose your taste for it 255 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: a bit. So that's the kind of thing where it 256 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: might be really hard and then get easier. But it's 257 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: sort of like there's no there's no sign that you'll think, 258 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: you know, nothing comes in the mail to tell you, okay, 259 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: it's time to give up or whatever. Yeah, it's if. 260 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: Only indeed, Yeah, and it's yeah, it's funny with with sugar. 261 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: I quit sugar about seven years ago, and me too. Yeah, yeah, 262 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. It does. It gets a lot easier, 263 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: and then it just kind of it becomes the default. 264 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: I remember us out for do you know, with my 265 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: work team last night, and does it came and it's 266 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: just kind of like I just have no desire for it. 267 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: So people don't get that, Like I think, it's really 268 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 2: hard to understand. It's like to me, I'm like, it's 269 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: like uncooked rice. It's not that it's not food. It's 270 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: not that it's gross or anything. It's just it's not 271 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: the kind of thing I eat. It just doesn't the 272 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: bells don't ring in your head anymore. But you know, 273 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: like one of the things that I that I've really 274 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: found which is true for me, it sounds like it's 275 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: true for you. Is like there's abstainers and moderators when 276 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: it comes to strong temptation, and for people who like 277 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: to give things up altogether, like we're abstainers. It's like 278 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: it's kind of all or nothing. Like for me with sugar, 279 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: it's like if I have one cookie, I want ten 280 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: cookies and it's very hard for me to stop. But 281 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: if I have no cookies, then I'm like, oh, that's 282 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: not hard for me. But like with a wine, I'm 283 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: not that tempted by one. So I can have half 284 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: a glass of wine. But then I have a friend 285 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 2: who's like, I can have one cookie, but for me, 286 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: it's no wine or four glasses of wine. I can't 287 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: have half a glass of wine. But then moderators are 288 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: people who do better when they have something a little 289 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: bit or sometimes. And these are the people who are like, 290 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: I just keep a bar a fine chocolate in my 291 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 2: desk drawer, and every day I have one square every 292 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: other day, that's just enough, Like you should do that. 293 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, my whole day would be like one square, 294 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 2: two square, two squares. It's my birthday, it's rating I deserve. 295 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 2: I just like eat the whole thing just to get 296 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 2: it over with. So I think it is different So 297 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: from stainers. I think they're often surprised and relieved to 298 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: realize what a relief it is to just say like 299 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: I'm just going to take this off the table. But 300 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: then moderators really get kind of panicky and rebellious, and 301 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: they do better when they're like, you know, you're just 302 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: gonna have a few French fries, you know, just just 303 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 2: gonna have a half a brownie and that's how they 304 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: do better. So again it's like not everybody. There's no 305 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: magic one size, so it's all solution. A lot of 306 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 2: it is just experimenting and figuring out what works for us. 307 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a good distinction. Is that it obviousactly like 308 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: you with chocolate and wine, Chocolate could not have it 309 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: here wine do not care. 310 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: But also, Joe, people say to you things like, you know, 311 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: what's life without a brownie? Like yeah, Like I'm like, 312 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: not eating brownies makes me so much happier than brownie's ever. 313 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: Did like have a brownie if you want one, but 314 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: I'd rather not. 315 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: Definitely, yes, and I'd rather not have the sugar. 316 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and that you're just free of that Like 317 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: that that like crazy decision. I just I find that 318 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: very boring. Yeah that is now later, well does this 319 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: count one? Two? I was Likeugh, just tiresome. 320 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about decisions. I want to 321 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: know what's your process when you have to make a 322 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,239 Speaker 1: big decision. What does that look like for you? 323 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: Well, I'm a big pros and cons person, so I 324 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: will make that list. But I have found a super 325 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: useful test when I have a big decision where the 326 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: pros and cons feel very balanced, and sometimes it's sort 327 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: of like an apple and an orange, So no a 328 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: pros and cons, this doesn't even really help you. So, 329 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: like we were trying to decide, it's a family whether 330 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: to get a dog, like five or six years ago, 331 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: and it's sort of like there's all these pros, there's 332 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: all these cons, but in the end, it's just like 333 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: do you want to have a dog or do you 334 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: not want to have a dog? And I couldn't figure 335 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: out how to decide, and then I realized, so my 336 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: test is choose the bigger life. And I think for 337 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: some people a bigger life would be a life without 338 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: a dog, because they're like I could travel more freely, 339 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: I'd have more disposable income, I can always get a 340 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: dog later, that's the bigger life. But I knew that 341 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 2: for my family, the bigger life was to get the dog, 342 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: and so we got our dog. We'd love our dog. 343 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: Barnaby was exactly the right decision. And I've talked to 344 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: people like I talked to someone where he and his 345 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: wife were trying to decide whether they should move to 346 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: be closer to family. So it's like now we're in 347 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: the big city. It's so exciting, but life is harder. 348 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: We can move back home and like that's a smaller city, 349 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 2: so maybe we don't have the same opportunities, but we're 350 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: closer to family and friends, and we're thinking about having 351 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: a family, you know, and it's like pros and cons 352 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: and you go back and forth. And I said, Okay, 353 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: what's the bigger life. Choose the bigger life, and he 354 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 2: was instantly He's like, the bigger life for us is 355 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: to move back. That's just a bigger life for us. 356 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: It's more opportunity, more friends, more family, like and he 357 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: just knew it right away. And then and then he 358 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: was sort of like, Okay, that's kind of like all 359 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: I need to know, because only you know what the 360 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: bigger life is for you. But it's it's clarifying. I 361 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: think I found it very clarifying. 362 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: What is about the questions that you usually ask yourself 363 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: you're making decisions about how to spend your time or energy, 364 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: your money. 365 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 2: Well, I always do say is this going to make 366 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: me happier? And that's how I make my decisions. So 367 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 2: with that, like anything that goes to relationships, anything that 368 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 2: deep into relationships, or broaden's relationships is likely to pay 369 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: off in terms of happiness. Anything that helps me learn 370 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: or grow that, you know, the atmosphere of growth is 371 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 2: so important for happiness. So anything like that is something 372 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 2: that I would be inclined to do. Something where I 373 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: feel like, maybe it's the fantasy self. It's like my 374 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: idea of the kind of person I like to be. 375 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: I watch out for that. That's a big warning sign 376 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: for me. My big, my big personal commandment is to 377 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: be Gretchen. And then sometimes I'm like, that just feels 378 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: like me kind of wanting to do something that would 379 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: be a good idea if I were a different kind 380 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 2: of person, like by Linen cocktail napkins because they're on sale. 381 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 2: What am I thinking? There is no that is not 382 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 2: Gretchen Linen Cocktail nlpkins. That would not be. That would 383 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: not That's not something to spend my time, money or 384 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: energy on. 385 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: I love your twelve person no commandments. I got to say, 386 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: can you can you talk about some of the other 387 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: ones that I guess that you apply in your life? 388 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: My stuff in. 389 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 2: Well, one of them comes from my father. That's enjoy 390 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: the process. And this is really helpful because you know, 391 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 2: sometimes in life. And this goes back to decision making 392 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: that you were talking about. You know, sometimes we can 393 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 2: decide to do something that we really do not want 394 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 2: to do at the time, maybe for years, but then 395 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 2: we think, oh, there's going to be this big payoff, 396 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: So I've got to like put up with all this 397 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: badness in the in the in the process, because there'll 398 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: be this payoff. So I don't like being a lot lawyer, 399 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: and I don't like being an associate in law firm, 400 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 2: but in seven years I'll be a partner and that'll 401 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 2: be great. Or I don't enjoy writing this book, but 402 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 2: one day it'll be a bestseller and then it'll all 403 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 2: be worth it. The problem with you when you don't 404 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: enjoy the process is that a lot of times things 405 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: don't work out the way we wish they did. We're 406 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 2: not in control of outcomes. We can we can focus 407 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: on process, but we can't. We can't control the outcome. 408 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 2: And if you enjoy the process, then the disappointment if 409 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 2: things don't go your way is less. So I wrote 410 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 2: a book called forty Ways look at JFK. I loved 411 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 2: writing that book, and it flopped. It flopped so hard 412 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: it didn't reach an audience. Didn't reach its audience. That's 413 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: what they tell you when your book it fails. But 414 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,479 Speaker 2: I loved writing that book, and you know, I'm sad 415 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: that it didn't find its audience, but I don't regret 416 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: it because I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the process so much. 417 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: But if somebody had said, oh, you should write a 418 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: book about X y Z, and I had had no 419 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: interest in it, and I had just forced myself to 420 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: do it, thinking like, well, there would be a big 421 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: payoff in the end. So if you can enjoy the process, 422 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: then I always just remind myself and also just remind 423 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 2: myself like I enjoyed the process, like, Okay, maybe today 424 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: I don't feel like writing this part, but I love writing. 425 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 2: Like as my sister's a TV writer. She has a 426 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 2: big sign in her office that says it's a fun job, 427 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 2: and I enjoy it. To remind herself that she picked 428 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: TV writing, this is what she wants, and then I think. 429 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 2: One of the most thought provoking happiness project resolutions for 430 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 2: me has been to imitate a spiritual master. One of 431 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 2: my spiritual masters is Saint Trez of Leziu, which I'm 432 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: not even Catholic, but I am like obsessed with her 433 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 2: book Story of a Soul, and in there, Saint Terrez 434 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: says that when one loves, one does not calculate, and 435 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: so one of my personal resolutions is no calculation, because 436 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 2: I can be a bean counter like, well, if I 437 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 2: did this for you, husband, then you should do this 438 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,239 Speaker 2: for me. And you took a nap yesterday, so it's 439 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: my turn today, you know, and that's just not good. 440 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 2: You should just give and not calculate. So no calculation 441 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: comes from Saint Terrees. 442 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: Okay, it's nearly time for an ad to break, but 443 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: can I ask a favor? If you are enjoying how 444 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: I work, I would love it if you could eat, 445 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: pause and leave a quick review for the podcast. I 446 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: love getting feedback from listeners, and everyone has left reviews 447 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: or star ratings. Thank you, thank you, thank you, you 448 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: guys rock It's just awesome getting feedback. So thank you 449 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: and thank you if you plan to do that today. 450 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: After the break, Gretchen will be back talking about how 451 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: you can make your own commandments, Gretchen's method for handling criticism, 452 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: and why she picks a word of the year, and 453 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: what her word is for this year and how she's 454 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: using that. What advice would you give to people who 455 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: are listening to these personal commandments and thinking, oh, I 456 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: wouldn't mind creating my own list, Like what was your process? 457 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 2: Oh I so highly recommend this exercise. Yes, so I 458 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: have twelve, but you know that's just kind of the 459 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: number that I came up with. Often people have fewer 460 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 2: or more. This is a very very creative, really compelling 461 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 2: exercise to help you know yourself. So this isn't sort 462 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 2: of your to do list, you know, get my hair 463 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 2: cut regularly, and it's not. On the Happier podcast, we 464 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: talk about like your twenty one for twenty one list, 465 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: which is like what are twenty one things you want 466 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: to get done in twenty twenty one that's super fun, 467 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: Like on mine it was like watch mad Men finally, 468 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 2: or you know, or things like deal with my email archive, 469 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 2: which was like a mess that was like haunting me. 470 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: Those are more like things that would be done or 471 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: things you want to start. Personal commandments is more about 472 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 2: like what are your deepest principles and what are the 473 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: principles that you want to guide your whole life, So 474 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: like enjoy the process or choose joy I mean or 475 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 2: is something where it really is kind of a transcendent 476 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: principle that you want to live by. And it took 477 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 2: a long time. I worked on mine for months because 478 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 2: I would add to it, and then I would decide 479 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: that two things were really the same thing, just in 480 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 2: different words, and then I had to pick one, and 481 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: then some sort of didn't rise to the level of 482 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 2: being a personal commandment. But I think it's really a 483 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 2: creative way to do self reflection and to think about 484 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: your aims for yourself. 485 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: I wanted around sort of handling criticism when you know, 486 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: as someone who wants to achieve and maintain happiness. So 487 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: what's your approach to dealing with criticism and negative feedback. 488 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 2: Well, one thing is if I wouldn't listen to their advice, 489 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 2: I won't listen to their criticism. So I try to 490 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: not expose myself to the critics, like drive by criticism. 491 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 2: So like I don't read any reviews of my books, 492 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 2: and I don't read any profiles of me. I try 493 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 2: to read about nothing because it just gets in my 494 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 2: head and often I will overreact to it, you know, 495 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 2: like one person says one thing, I had this with 496 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 2: my audiobook, Like I for my book Happier at Home. 497 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: Like someone had said, like, oh, why is Gretchen reading 498 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 2: her book? She's not a professional actor, which is true, right, 499 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: and so I thought, oh, that's why they said that 500 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 2: for Happiness the Happiness Project. So when it came time 501 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: to record Happier at Home, I thought, oh, well, I 502 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: really want to do the better thing for listeners, and 503 00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: so I'll have it. You know, I have an actor 504 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 2: do it. I won't do it myself, even though I 505 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: enjoy doing it. And then all these other people were like, oh, 506 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: it was so much better when Gretchen retted herself, and 507 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 2: I was like, why did I listen to one person? 508 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 2: That just happened across my consciousness, you know. And so 509 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 2: I try not to open myself up because I feel 510 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: like that's distorting. I have so many people who give 511 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 2: me criticism, people that I respect and admire, and I'm like, 512 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 2: let me stay open to their criticism. That's not easy either, 513 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: but so I don't like expose myself to that. I 514 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 2: do read emails from everyone, and like with the Happier podcast, 515 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 2: we get a tremendous amount of email, and I get 516 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: a lot of reader or email too, and of course 517 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: on social media, so I definitely hear from people and 518 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: with criticism. One thing I remind myself is is that 519 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 2: a strong voice repels as well as attracts, and that's 520 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 2: true of anyone that you can think of. Nothing is 521 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 2: universally liked. And if I try to make myself so 522 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 2: vanilla that everyone will like me, then no one will 523 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: be interested. So I just have to accept that like 524 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: I am who I am, you might find it interesting, 525 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 2: you may not, And that's just the way things go. 526 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 2: I can't please everyone, but I do try to stay 527 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: open to it. And like when I'm going to get 528 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 2: a big edit, as I said, I'm in that process 529 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: right now. Like I will literally like have a mental 530 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 2: imagery thing that I do where I like like imagine 531 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: myself opening my heart, opening my chest to be like 532 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: I'm open. My word of the year, I pick a 533 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: word for the year every year. My word for this 534 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: year is open. I want to stay open to hearing 535 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 2: what people say. Often I have to think about it. 536 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: I will warn people who are working with me, like 537 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 2: I always say no, I'm always really defensive. I always 538 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 2: say I can't do it and then give me time, 539 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 2: Like at least twenty minutes and then I'll be like, 540 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: I see your point. I see how I can do it. 541 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: That's a good point. Okay, Now I can't wait to 542 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: do it because you're on a resent, right, and I 543 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 2: can't wait to make a sit. 544 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: You know. 545 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 2: I just have to let myself go through that process. 546 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 2: So part of it kind of knowing how I'll respond, 547 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 2: and then I will kind of go into shock kind of. 548 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 2: I often will. If I get an edit, I'll look 549 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: at it and then I won't expect myself to do anything. 550 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: I'll just like go to bed early and start it 551 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: because I am such a morning person the next day 552 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: because I think it is hard to get criticisms, so 553 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 2: I always want to be at my best when i'm 554 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: when I'm starting to work through it, like had a 555 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 2: good night's sleep, kind of ready for it, not just 556 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: kind of drive by. 557 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: I love that image of like opening your heart and 558 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: you said that open is your word for this year. 559 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: What's your process for deciding on your word for the year. 560 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: Oh, it's so fun. Yeah, I've had one word theme 561 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: for years now and I highly recommend it again. It's 562 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 2: sort of you know, people get so tired of making 563 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: New Year's resolutions. And yet it's very valuable to set 564 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 2: an aim for yourself and to reflect. I think around 565 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 2: the new year, this is a way to kind of 566 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: think like, well, what's the big idea? So for me, 567 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 2: I was going to be doing a lot of new 568 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 2: things this year, so I really did want to stay 569 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: open and remind myself, like, think about there are other 570 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: ways to do things, and they're you know, just stay 571 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 2: open in the past, Like, I have a lot of 572 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 2: material and so one year. One year my theme was 573 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: repurpose because I wanted to figure out how to make 574 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: new things out of stuff that I'd already created. One year, 575 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 2: my word was lighter because I wanted to kind of 576 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 2: it was lighten up. My sister had lighter. One year 577 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: I had lighten up. So I wanted to lighten up 578 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 2: kind of my mood. I wanted to have kind of 579 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: a more lighthearted outlook and a more light hearted demeanor. 580 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: I can be kind of serious and kind of charging ahead, 581 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 2: you know. I wanted to lighten up, and then I 582 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: also wanted to get rid of a lot of stuff. 583 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: I wrote this book Outer Order, inter Calm because I 584 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 2: do feel like outer Order contributes to intercolm for me, 585 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: and I thought let me just get rid of a 586 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: lot of stuff that I don't need. User love if 587 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: I lighten up my my space. I thought I would 588 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 2: feel I thought it would help me lighten up mentally, 589 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: which it did. Oh my gosh, I love. I love 590 00:27:58,280 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: I have an empty shelf. I love my empty shp. 591 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 2: I love figuring out ways to create more order and 592 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: more space. 593 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: On the topic of having out of order, and I 594 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: loved your book out of Order in a com I 595 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: think I read it like a week after it came out. 596 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: I was very excited to just vow that one. Oh 597 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 2: thank you. It was such a fun like It's like 598 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: it's like a hype book. It's like to get you 599 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: pumped up to clear clutter. Right. It's like it's not 600 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 2: even it's not like a narrative. It's just a bunch 601 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 2: of ideas. It was great. 602 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: I want to know what what are your favorite ideas 603 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: that you wrote about in that book? 604 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 2: Ooh so many. Well, one is the one minute rule. 605 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 2: This is that anything you can do in less than 606 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 2: a minute, do without delay. So if you can hang 607 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 2: up your coat instead of throwing on a chair, or 608 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: even better, if you can put up hooks, so you 609 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: can put your coat on a hook instead of on 610 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: a hanger, that's even better. Or like if you can 611 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: put a document in the folder instead of just leaving 612 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: it out on the desk, or you know, put a 613 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: wrapper into the trash. I just do that with that delay. 614 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: That gets rid of sort of the scum of clutter 615 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 2: on the surface of life. 616 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: Now, I imagine that you're someone that gets a lot 617 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: of requests for your time and that you would have 618 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: to say no very frequently in your life. What is 619 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: your strategy for saying no? Like, how do you say no? 620 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: Well, get back to the four tendencies. This is something 621 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: a poulterers are good at too, which is why they 622 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 2: can sometimes seem cold, because they find it pretty easy 623 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 2: to say no when they want to. But I can 624 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: sometimes say like, I'll just say yes too easily because 625 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: I know I can do it, so I'll just say okay, yes, whatever. Actually, 626 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: I'm married to a questioner, and so it helps me 627 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: that he's like, why would you do that? So sometimes 628 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 2: I'll ask my husband Jamie if I should do something, 629 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 2: or I'll think, well, what would Jamie say? I don't 630 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: even need to ask him, I just need to visualize 631 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 2: him his face being like quizzically, why would you do that? 632 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: So that helps me. And then often, you know, I 633 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: just you know, I am like, I've got a big 634 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: writing deadline that I have to meet, and I think 635 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: people are pretty sympathetic to that. People get it, and 636 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: so I just say, you know, I've got a big 637 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: right deadlines, so I have to I'm saying no to 638 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: a lot of things. Unfortunately I can't do it. 639 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: Where do you go for inspiration and new ideas, you know, 640 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: particularly when you're thinking about what is the next book 641 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: that you're going to write? 642 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: My next book idea always has come to me magically, 643 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: so that's wonderful. It just comes out of whatever I've 644 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 2: been naturally thinking about. So I feel super lucky about that. 645 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: But my inspiration comes from two things. For shirt, reading, 646 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: which again like I read all the time because that's 647 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: where I get ideas, or talking to other people, just 648 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: talking to the people around me, and I guess reading. 649 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 2: I read a ton of memoirs and biography, so that's 650 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 2: kind of like talking to people as well, or reading novels, 651 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: but just talking to people. Like some of my biggest 652 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: insights have come from the most casual conversations, like a 653 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: friend of mine once said to me, She's like, you know, 654 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: the funny thing about me is I'm happier when I exercise. 655 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: And you know, when I was in high school, I 656 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: was on the track team and I never missed track practice. 657 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 2: So why can't I go running on my own at now? 658 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: And I thought, well, that's a great, great question. It's 659 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: the same person, it's the same behavior. One time it 660 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 2: was no problem for you. Now you can't do it. 661 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 2: What's going on? And I came up with like a 662 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: big long list of things, And in the end, that's 663 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,239 Speaker 2: what led me to understand my full tendencies framework. Or 664 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 2: there were people where they would say to me, because 665 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 2: you know, because I write about kind of happiness and habits, 666 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: I'm very interested in how people feel about New Year's resolutions. 667 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: I talk to people about New Year's resolutions a lot, 668 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: not so much for what they do, but how they 669 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 2: think about it. And there's a kind of person that 670 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 2: I ran into over and over where if I asked 671 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: about New Year's resolutions, they would say, oh, I don't 672 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: do New Year's resolutions. I'll make a resolution anytime it 673 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: makes sense for me, but I wouldn't do it on 674 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: January first. Because January first is an arbitrary date. And 675 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: I thought, well, that's interesting, because the arbitrariness of January 676 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 2: first never really bothered me, but clearly for like some 677 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: group of people, it was very significant. And so I 678 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 2: was like, what do I make of it? That pattern, 679 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 2: and again that led me to my four tendency. So 680 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: a lot of times it's just these casual things that 681 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: people say that send me off in some direction that 682 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 2: ends up being very I mean, it comes from reading too, 683 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: Like I was reading one of my spiritual masters is 684 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 2: Samuel Johnson, and there's a line it's not even in 685 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 2: the life of Samuel Johnson. It's like it's like a 686 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: comment of his that was written down where somebody offered 687 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: him wine. This is doctor Johnson, and he said they 688 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: asked h if he would take a little wine, and 689 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: he said, I can't take a little child. Abstinence is 690 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 2: as easy to me as temperance would be difficult. And 691 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 2: when I read that, that's when I realized, like you, 692 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: I'm an abstainer, like Johnson. Abstinence is easy, temperance is hard. 693 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 2: I can have none, but I can't have a little bit. 694 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: And it was reading that line from Johnson that all 695 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: of a sudden made me realize this thing about myself. 696 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: And I thought I was the only one who is 697 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: like this, because you know, everybody tells you, oh, moderation 698 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 2: and is pleasant to the wise, and you should follow 699 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: the eighty twenty rule. All that I thought I was 700 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: the only one. That I started asking around. It turns 701 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: out huge number of people are like this. So I 702 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: get my insights really from reading or from other people. 703 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: Do you have a process for I guess, processing those 704 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,959 Speaker 1: those things that you're hearing, those observations, or is it 705 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: just kind of happening in the background for you. 706 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting because I do have a 707 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: lot of notes. So I have a quotes thing where 708 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: I'll write down quotes. I have my book of Aphorisms. 709 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: I have notes on all different subjects. And I also 710 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: have something called notes, which is like notes that don't 711 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 2: go anywhere else, which you would think would be miscellaneous, 712 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 2: which I said not to do, but it's actually different 713 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 2: for miscellaneous. But so I have all that. But what 714 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 2: I have found is that often I will feel like 715 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 2: writings taking a note, I will feel that something is significant, 716 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 2: but I will not understand its significance. I will be like, why, 717 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: I don't understand why I'm even bothering to write this down, 718 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: But I, you know, okay, fine, I'll put this down, 719 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: and then later, maybe years later, I will understand its significance. 720 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 2: And that is super exciting when I realized that I've 721 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 2: actually been reflecting and researching something for years, even though 722 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: I hadn't really grasped the subject yet, because I think 723 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 2: a lot of times it takes me a long time 724 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 2: to understand how things fit in. When I was writing 725 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: my book about habit change better than before, I would 726 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 2: often write down examples of things that people were doing 727 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 2: or saying, or that I read about, and I would 728 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 2: be like, I don't understand how this fits into this system. 729 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 2: This seems kind of relevant to have it change, but 730 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: I don't really understand how. And it was only when 731 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 2: I got deep, deep, deep, deep into it that all 732 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 2: the pieces started sliding into place. So sometimes I just 733 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 2: sort of have to trust to the future and assume 734 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 2: that at some point I'll understand why something seemed significant, 735 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 2: and I do find myself pondering, like I'll often be 736 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 2: struck by something and I'll have to really think about, like, 737 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 2: why did that seem so meaningful to me or what 738 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 2: was the lesson there? Like, sometimes it takes some thinking 739 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 2: to figure out what the lesson was. 740 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: Something I think about when I read your work, and 741 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: you know, when I consume other people's work that does 742 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 1: sort of like yours and really inspire me to be 743 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: better and you know, lead a kind of richer life 744 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: is I think about what can I apply as a parent. 745 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: I've got a seven year old daughter, and I'm constantly thinking, 746 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,879 Speaker 1: how does this apply to her? So I'm wondering what 747 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: do you do personally as a parent, Like what are 748 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: some of the things that you you know, write about 749 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: for adults, but you help I guess or apply or 750 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: teach to your kids. 751 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 2: Well, one thing that has helped me tremendously as a 752 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 2: parent and also just in life with other adults is 753 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 2: to accept the reality of other people's feelings. Because I 754 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: had a bad habit of saying things like, oh, you're 755 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 2: not hungry, or you're not called, or you love you 756 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 2: love going to Grandma Grandpa's house, or you know, you're 757 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: not scared of the pool. And that's whether you're a 758 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 2: child or an adult. That is very annoying and counterproductive. 759 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 2: And I realize now it's much better to just acknowledge 760 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: the reality of other people's feelings. Like we just ate, 761 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 2: but you still feel hungry, or you usually you love 762 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: going to the swimming pool, but today you're you're just 763 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: feeling very apprehensive. You don't feel like going into the 764 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: swimming pool. It's like and often when you tell people 765 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 2: that you acknowledge the reality of how they're feeling, you 766 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 2: feel so much better. It's like my husband, it's like, 767 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 2: you know something, like it sounds like it was really 768 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 2: annoying to be on hold for half an hour. Instead 769 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 2: of being like, well, what's the big deal? Like what 770 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 2: you know, it's not such a big deal to call 771 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 2: the cable company, It's like that just makes you feel angry. 772 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 2: So that's something that's really that's really helpful. I mean, 773 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 2: one of the things that I really try to work 774 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 2: on is just remembering that just because something works for 775 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 2: me doesn't mean that it would work for my children. 776 00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: And like, one way this comes up, it's like I'm 777 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: a super desk person. I need a desk. I realized, 778 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 2: like I need a desk like every ten feet, Like 779 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 2: I only work at a desk. I want to be 780 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 2: at a desk. I want a desk everywhere I go, 781 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: and it was really hard for me. I was always 782 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 2: trying to get my kids to work at a desk, 783 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 2: like they work on their bed, they work on the floor, 784 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 2: They work in these like positions that look so uncomfortable 785 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 2: to me. And then I went into this was a 786 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 2: long time, this is you know, before the before times. 787 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 2: I went into a we work or you know, one 788 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 2: of those places, and it had a sitting thing. It 789 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 2: wasn't a chair, and it wasn't a sofa, and it 790 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 2: was like a bed, only kind of in a sofa form. 791 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 2: And I saw somebody sitting on it and that was 792 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 2: the way my daughter worked on her laptop. And I 793 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 2: was like, this is the way people work, you know, 794 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 2: we work is acknowledging. Some people like to sit like this. 795 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 2: This is a way that some people were. I would 796 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 2: never work like that. It was desperately uncomfortable to me, 797 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 2: but some people do. And then I stopped hassling my 798 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 2: daughters to sit at a desk, because why why is 799 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 2: it any of my business if they sit at a desk, 800 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 2: If they if they get their work done, and they 801 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 2: are perfectly content and productive, they should be able to 802 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 2: do their work in their own way, And so part 803 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 2: of it is just like, just because something works really 804 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 2: well for me doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work 805 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 2: for someone else. And if they're doing it, if they're 806 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 2: doing fine, I shouldn't. I shouldn't I shouldn't try to 807 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,439 Speaker 2: persuade them to do it a different way. 808 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: How about helping children foam good habits? 809 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 2: Well, the most important thing to do is to be 810 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 2: a good example. One of the there's twenty one strategies 811 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 2: of habit change, and one of the most powerful strategies 812 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 2: is the strategy of other people. And we pick up 813 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 2: habits from other people in a flash, good habits and 814 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 2: bad habits. And if you want your children to read, 815 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 2: you read. If you want your children to go to 816 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: bed on time, you go to bed on time. If 817 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 2: you want your children to put down their phone, you 818 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 2: put down your phone. First of all, it'll make you 819 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 2: much more convincing when you suggest that they do it, 820 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 2: and you're just showing that behavior. And what I have found, 821 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 2: you know, one of the truths, one of this kind 822 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 2: of sad truths about happiness is the only people we 823 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 2: can the only person we can change is ourselves. You know, 824 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 2: we can only change ourselves. But what I happened is 825 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,320 Speaker 2: that when I change, a relationship changes, and when I change, 826 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 2: the atmosphere of my household changes, and if I do something, 827 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 2: other people sort of come along. Not always and not perfectly, 828 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 2: but often and more often than you might think. So, say, 829 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 2: when I started getting up, you know, like I get 830 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 2: up at six every day, And what I found is 831 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 2: that when I get up, I sort of start everything moving, 832 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 2: and so I think that makes other people get up. 833 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 2: Maybe they don't get up when I get up, but 834 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 2: they probably get up earlier than they otherwise would. Or 835 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 2: when I started making sure that I gave everybody a 836 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 2: really warm hello and goodbye every time they went in 837 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 2: and out of the apartment, that made other people more 838 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 2: likely to do it too. We all talked about it, 839 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 2: but it was really important that one person was really 840 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 2: doing it. And then I think when one person and 841 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 2: starts doing it, then you sort of get swept up 842 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 2: in it. So setting like doing it yourself is often 843 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 2: very important. And then also you know, just deciding what 844 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 2: happens if you ignore this some things, it's like, yeah, 845 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 2: you would like their bed to be made, but is 846 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 2: that is that the argument you feel like having is 847 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 2: that is that is that what you feel like spending 848 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 2: your time and energy on. Maybe not? Maybe so it 849 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 2: might be really really important to you, but maybe not. 850 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that one now, Gretchen Gosh time is 851 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: flown by for people that want to consume more of 852 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: what you are doing. What is the best way for 853 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: people to do that? 854 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: Well, if you'd like to listen more, I have a 855 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 2: weekly podcast that I do with my sister who's a 856 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 2: TV show runner, called Happier with Gretchen Ruben, where we 857 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 2: talk about how to be happier spoiler alert and if 858 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 2: you go to my website Gretchen Reuben dot com, I 859 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,959 Speaker 2: have that's a kind of a clearing house for everything 860 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 2: about my books. I have a lot of free resources. 861 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 2: I have a ton of you know, material there on 862 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: habits and good and human nature and happiness generally. We 863 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 2: talked some about the four tendancies. If people want to 864 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 2: know their tendency and get a little report and find 865 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,439 Speaker 2: out what that means, they can go to quiz dot 866 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 2: Gretchen Ruben dot com or just look on my website 867 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 2: for the quiz. Like more than three million people have 868 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 2: taken that quiz and it's free and it's quick, and 869 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 2: we'll tell you your tendency and then I'm on social 870 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 2: media everywhere as Gretchen Ruben, and I love to get 871 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 2: insights and comments and questions from people, so I love, 872 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 2: I love to engage with readers and listeners, So hit 873 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 2: me up. 874 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing, Well, Gretchen, I've just loved talking to you. 875 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: After following your work for over a decade, it's just 876 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: been such a joy to chat. So thank you so much. 877 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I so enjoyed the conversation. I appreciate it. 878 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: Helloi, That is it for today's show. Now, if you 879 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: are not a subscriber or follow up of How I Work, 880 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: you might want to hit subscribe or follow wherever you're 881 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: listening to this from because next week I'm very excited 882 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: to have Yale professor Marissa King on the show. She 883 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: recently wrote a book called Social Chemistry that is all 884 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: about how to build our social networks. And I chatted 885 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 1: to Marissa about how she's gone about building networks in 886 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: her own life, from professional networks through to friendships, and 887 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: it is a fascinating chat. So hit subscribe. How I 888 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: Work is produced by Inventium with production support from Dead 889 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: said Studios. The producer for this episode was the amazing 890 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 1: Jedi Coder and thank you to Martin Imba who does 891 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: the audio mix and makes everything sound awesome. See you 892 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:36,479 Speaker 1: next time.