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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, it's normal and reasonable in this context of the

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Speaker 2: last two years of COVID the global pandemic, It's normal

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Speaker 2: to have questions about vaccines, and it is important that

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Speaker 2: parents are well informed so that they can make an

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Speaker 2: informed decision.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mom

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 3: There may be no topic more controversial, more provocative the

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Speaker 3: kind of topic that fires parents up at the moment

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Speaker 3: than the issue around kids and whether or not to

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Speaker 3: get them vaccinated against COVID nineteen. Hello, this is doctor

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Speaker 3: Justin Colson. Very excited today to have a conversation that

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Speaker 3: I think might be a little bit hard, but very

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Speaker 3: very important. We're talking today with Professor Allison McMillan. Professor

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Speaker 3: McMillan is the Chief Nursing and Midwifery Officer for the

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Speaker 3: Commonwealth Department of Health and she joins me on The

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Speaker 3: Happy Family Podcast right now to talk about some tough things.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Professor, Thank you, Justin. It's lovely to be with you.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to ask these questions based on concerns a

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Speaker 3: lot of parents are sharing. So many of the questions

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Speaker 3: probably don't reflect my personal opinion, but I really want

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Speaker 3: to answer it or get answers from somebody like you

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Speaker 3: to these questions, because this is the stuff that bubbles

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Speaker 3: up on Facebook or on Twitter, or in the conversations

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Speaker 3: that we have in the school car park or down

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Speaker 3: at the beach or the park or wherever it might be.

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Speaker 3: So first off, new research shows that less than fifty

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Speaker 3: percent of kids age five to eleven have received even

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Speaker 3: one dose of the COVID nineteen vaccine, and only around

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Speaker 3: about half of one percent have been double dosed. Why

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Speaker 3: do you think that parents are holding back?

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Speaker 2: I think I think firstly, we just need to remind

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Speaker 2: ourselves that the vaccination is one of the most successful

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Speaker 2: and cost effective advancewers in public health in the across

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Speaker 2: the world. And we know that vaccines to prevent the

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Speaker 2: death of somewhere between two and three million people a year,

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Speaker 2: So the context vaccines is really important. In Australia, we

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Speaker 2: have one of the most comprehensive immunization programs in the world.

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Speaker 2: About ninety four percent of children under the age of

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Speaker 2: five are fully vaccinated in Australia or emunized against fifteen diseases.

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Speaker 2: So we parents are I think, very familiar with the

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Speaker 2: vaccine programs and the uptake, as I say, in Australia

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Speaker 2: is some of the highest in the world. But it's

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Speaker 2: normal and reasonable in this context of the last two

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Speaker 2: years of COVID, the global pandemic. It's normal to have

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Speaker 2: questions about vaccines, and it is important that parents are

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Speaker 2: well informed so that they can make an informed decision

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Speaker 2: and they can give information to their children in a

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Speaker 2: way that they can understand as well. And I am

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Speaker 2: often very concerned and you mentioned social media just moments

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Speaker 2: ago about some of the misinformation that's out there. So

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Speaker 2: I do recommend that when parents are looking for information,

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Speaker 2: the good are reliable sources and they'll promote obviously health

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Speaker 2: dot CAD dot au and very importantly talking to a

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Speaker 2: health professional, particularly a general practitioner about concerns because you

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Speaker 2: need to explore those. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So it's really interesting, Professor McMillan when you say that,

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Speaker 3: I know you're about to go on, but I just

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Speaker 3: want to jump in because the idea of being well informed.

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Speaker 3: If you ask anybody who's getting their news off Facebook

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Speaker 3: or off whatever social media platform, that they're getting, they

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Speaker 3: will insist that they're well informed. I had a conversation

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Speaker 3: on Sunday with a person who told me clearly that

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Speaker 3: their science might it, and they do all of their

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Speaker 3: own research. Now as somebody who is science might and

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Speaker 3: does all of my own research, I've found that some

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Speaker 3: of the claims that this person made were less less

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Speaker 3: than strong. I get the sense that there's a fundamental

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Speaker 3: mistrust now of mainstream media and even of government departments,

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Speaker 3: and even of the medical establishment. I don't think that

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Speaker 3: the huge finds that Big Farmer have paid over the

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Speaker 3: last few years in any number of contexts across the world,

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Speaker 3: have done any favors for the way people are viewing

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Speaker 3: them at the moment. So how do people know that

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Speaker 3: they're being well informed when they've got these mistrust issues.

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Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that people may. You know that it

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Speaker 2: has been a very challenging two years and information does

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Speaker 2: come to us from a whole range of different places. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say to you justin that I do

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Speaker 2: have confidence in the expertise that we have in this country.

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Speaker 2: You know, the Therapeutic Goods Administration, the TGA is considered

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Speaker 2: one of the best regulators across the world and is

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Speaker 2: connected with all of the great regulators. A TARGET is

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Speaker 2: led by some of the smartest people I know, but

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Speaker 2: also I would say also just the wisest, So they

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Speaker 2: give Frank and feal Us advice to government in a

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Speaker 2: way that's very balanced and sensible. It does follow the

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Speaker 2: evidence principles that we know in science, particularly those described

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Speaker 2: by the NHMRC or the National Medical Research Health Research Council.

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Speaker 2: The the evidence that a TARGET uses and TGA uses

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Speaker 2: is that agreed to buy the scientific community in Australia,

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Speaker 2: and I would say that I have confidence in the

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Speaker 2: professionalism of those people.

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Speaker 3: Most people that I talked to are saying, this thing's

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Speaker 3: only new and we don't really know what's going to

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Speaker 3: happen in two years, five years, ten years. One of

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Speaker 3: the most common ones that I hear all the time

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Speaker 3: is fear of infertility. Can you address that one?

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Speaker 2: I can, and certainly that's been raised with me on

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Speaker 2: many occasions in the adult, the adolescent and across the

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Speaker 2: general population. So what I can say is definitely, there

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Speaker 2: is no scientific evidence to support that there is any

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Speaker 2: impact on fertility from these vaccines, and certainly we continue

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Speaker 2: as I've said before, all of the vaccine companies are

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Speaker 2: required to continue to provide the TGA with data. The

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Speaker 2: TGA work with all of the other regulators across the world,

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Speaker 2: so it's not just that we're saying that it's not

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Speaker 2: impacting fertility in Australia, but it's not impacting fertility across

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 3: I'm speaking with Professor Allison McMillan. Professor McMillan is the

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Speaker 3: Chief Nursing and Midwifery Officer for the Commonwealth Department of Health.

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Speaker 3: Right off the break, we're going to ask a couple

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Speaker 3: of other questions like what's the big deal when it

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Speaker 3: comes to kids not really getting all that sick from

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Speaker 3: COVID anyway, why do we need to get them vaccinated?

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Speaker 3: And a couple of other tricky conversation points around how

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Speaker 3: Australian parents are responding to the request to vaccinate five

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Speaker 3: to eleven year old kids.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 4: US Screens Creating Tension at Home Betweens, Teens and Screens

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Speaker 4: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

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Speaker 4: Bye today at Happyfamilies dot com dot are you slash Shop.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor Parent who just wants answers Now Today, very grateful

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Speaker 3: to be able to spend some time with Professor alisonmill And,

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Speaker 3: the Chief Nursing and Midwiffery Officer for the Commonwealth Department

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Speaker 3: of Health. Allison, I have another question for you. This

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Speaker 3: is one that I'm hearing consistently. It may be the

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Speaker 3: most regularly repeated refrain that I hear in relation to

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Speaker 3: kids in the vaccine. As a general rule, children are

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Speaker 3: barely affected by the virus. I'm not saying all kids. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: it's not all kids, but most children certainly. In almost

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Speaker 3: every conversation that I've had with anyone whose children have

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Speaker 3: contracted COVID, the parents basically say, yeah, they had a

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Speaker 3: headache or a sore throat for a day or two,

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Speaker 3: and then they were in isolation for seven days and

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Speaker 3: we're climbing the walls. There was nothing the matter with

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Speaker 3: them after a couple of days. How do we reconcile

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Speaker 3: the fact that COVID doesn't seem to be affecting too

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Speaker 3: many of our kids in any significant way with this

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Speaker 3: push to get them back against something that doesn't seem

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Speaker 3: to have a big impact anyway.

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Speaker 2: So just now I'll break it into a number of parts,

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Speaker 2: because I think it's important to look at this from

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Speaker 2: another number of different directions. I think, yes, as you're right,

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Speaker 2: we are hearing and reporting that, particularly with omicron, people

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Speaker 2: are seeing milder symptoms headache, you know, tiredness, generally feeling

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Speaker 2: a little bit unwell but not hugely unwell, might put

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Speaker 2: them in bed for a day or so, or just

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Speaker 2: be a bit grumpy. As we all know, kids often

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Speaker 2: tend to be very grumpy when they're initially unwell, but

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Speaker 2: that's not true for all children, and particularly those who

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Speaker 2: may have who are immun or compromised. Children who may

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Speaker 2: have chronic diseases, Obviously they are more susceptible to any virus,

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Speaker 2: and obviously COVID is one of those.

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Speaker 3: You're asking parents to inject their kids with a biological

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Speaker 3: agent that's been found to have at least something of

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Speaker 3: an injurious effect on part of the population. For most

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Speaker 3: it's just very very short term injurious effect, but for

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Speaker 3: some it's for an infinite tesimally small part of the population.

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Speaker 3: There are some people who affected really really badly by this,

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Speaker 3: and parents hear about it, and they worry that their

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Speaker 3: child might be the outlier, the one in a million

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Speaker 3: that's harmed with myocarditis, for example, or they worry that

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Speaker 3: their child has some sort of sort of immuno compromised

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Speaker 3: status and that this is going to be worse for them.

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Speaker 3: The Australian government's own health data shows that zero point

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Speaker 3: four percent of those who are given this biological agent

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Speaker 3: this vaccination end up having an adverse event of some

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Speaker 3: kind two point two per thousand. That's two point two

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Speaker 3: per thousand doses. Because everyone gets double dosed minimally, that's

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Speaker 3: four people per thousand vaccinations. Orero point four of a

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Speaker 3: percent are having an adverse event. When parents hear about this,

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Speaker 3: do you think that that can help to explain that

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Speaker 3: the hesitancy and when weighed up against the risk of

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Speaker 3: COVID for them, do you think that it helps to

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Speaker 3: explain why we've got so many parents saying not for

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Speaker 3: my kids, happy to do it myself even, but not

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Speaker 3: for my kids.

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Speaker 2: You gave me an awful lot of data very quickly.

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Speaker 2: They so let me go back to the beginning and

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Speaker 2: acknowledge and admit that it is reasonable and one would

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Speaker 2: not be surprised if parents didn't have some hesitancy. So

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Speaker 2: it is very reasonable to be hesitant. And again, you know,

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Speaker 2: as you said, that parents might have a concern about

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Speaker 2: their child being the outlier that may suffer a side effect.

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Speaker 2: I think it's important for me to rich it. You know,

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Speaker 2: a side effect could be as minor as a sore arm,

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Speaker 2: you know, some chills, a headache, or those sort of things.

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Speaker 2: They side effects, and that the significant side effects associated

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Speaker 2: with vaccines are incredibly rare. On the other side of this,

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Speaker 2: of course, is that would you want your child to

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Speaker 2: be the unlikely but rare outlier that unfortunately contracts COVID

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Speaker 2: and gets extremely sick. So both of them have rare,

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Speaker 2: significant consequences, whether it's vaccination or whether it's not vaccinating,

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Speaker 2: And ultimately the parents need to wear way up. And

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Speaker 2: I suppose just En, I've tried to explain that there

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Speaker 2: are benefits for the child, There are benefits for the

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Speaker 2: child within the family, and benefits across this broader society

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Speaker 2: that need to be thought about in the context of

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Speaker 2: this pandemic.

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Speaker 3: I was going to ask you a question about your

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Speaker 3: principal argument for encouraging parents to vaccinate their kids. But

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Speaker 3: I want to test my listening skills and see if

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Speaker 3: I can answer the question as you would probably answer it,

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Speaker 3: and get you to fill in any blanks that I

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Speaker 3: might miss. I'm going to guess that if I was

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Speaker 3: to say, what's the main reason what's the principal argument

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Speaker 3: for encouraging parents to vaccinate their kids? You're going to

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Speaker 3: say number one, Because the science says that the vaccine

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Speaker 3: actually works, It protects kids. The weight of evidence suggests

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Speaker 3: that the risk of catching COVID is going to end

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Speaker 3: up being worse than any risks that a vaccine might present.

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Speaker 3: The vaccine is a healthier, safer, wiser option, and that

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Speaker 3: it protects kids, that protects families, that protects the community,

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Speaker 3: and it reduces transmission and ultimately it reduces the ill

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Speaker 3: effects of the disease. Is there anything that I've missed

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Speaker 3: there that you think would be convincing or helpful for

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Speaker 3: parents who are sitting on the fence and wondering whether

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Speaker 3: they should go down this path.

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Speaker 2: I think you've covered it pretty well there. Thank you. Yes,

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Speaker 2: you have done that really well. I think, I think yes,

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Speaker 2: And that is the reason that we know. We've been

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Speaker 2: vaccinating our children for a very long time because we

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Speaker 2: know that these the benefits you've described are the benefits

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Speaker 2: that ultimately are for a range of vaccines, not solely

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Speaker 2: for COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think this has been a really important conversation.

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Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for you time. There will be some

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Speaker 3: people who will want to listen to this conversation again

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Speaker 3: to soak up the things that you've said and really

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Speaker 3: really work through them. And some people might want more information.

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Speaker 3: If they do want more info, where would you send them.

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Speaker 2: Well, there are more than ten thousand places across Australia

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Speaker 2: where you can access the vaccine at the moment. You

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Speaker 2: can look them up on the websites. If I do

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Speaker 2: encourage parents to talk to health professionals, to talk to

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Speaker 2: your general practitioner, to talk to those with expertise in

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Speaker 2: the vaccine clinics, the pharmacists, the nurses, the nurse practitioners,

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Speaker 2: those that are administering the vaccine across the country. They

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Speaker 2: have all had specialist training. There all have been required

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Speaker 2: a complete specialist training before administering these vaccines and they

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Speaker 2: are there to help you explore and voice your concerns

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Speaker 2: and provide you with very reliable information that will help

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Speaker 2: you make a decision on vaccinating your child. Place obviously

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Speaker 2: I'm going to plug is our website. Our website is

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Speaker 2: Health dot gov dot Au and our information there is

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Speaker 2: provided in a range of different ways, including videos and

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Speaker 2: also provided in multiple languages, because we acknowledge that we

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Speaker 2: need to reach a very broad audience and so it's

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Speaker 2: provided in a number of ways to make sure that

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Speaker 2: people can understand the information as it is today.

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Speaker 3: Well, Professor Allison McMillan, the Chiefnessing and Midwifree Officer for

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Speaker 3: the Commonwealth Department of Health, thank you so much for

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Speaker 3: your time and sharing your knowledge with us on the

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Speaker 3: Happy Families podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Be my pleasure. Thank you well.

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Speaker 3: I hope that that helps to shed some light on

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Speaker 3: the topic for you and moves you closer to a

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Speaker 3: firm decision one way or the other in terms of

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Speaker 3: what's going to be best for your kids. There's a

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Speaker 3: whole lot more in the show notes if you'd like

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Speaker 3: to get links or more information about our conversation today.

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Speaker 3: And as always, we appreciate how Justin Rulon and Craig

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Speaker 3: Bruce help us to sound great. They're our producer and

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Speaker 3: exact Kittive producer, respectively. The podcast exists to help you

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Speaker 3: make your family happier. If you've got any feedback for us,

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Speaker 3: we love it via podcasts at happy families dot com

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Speaker 3: dot A. You and if you don't mind, can you

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Speaker 3: jump onto Apple Podcasts and leave a rating and review

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Speaker 3: let us know how much you're enjoying it. We love

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Speaker 3: those five star ratings and reviews. They help other people

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Speaker 3: to find out about the podcast and bring it up

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Speaker 3: in their feed. For more information about making your family

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Speaker 3: happier and you can go to happy families dot com

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Speaker 3: dot a