Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload, the podcast last week thatirline. Welcome guys to
Speaker 1: TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris, and this is
Speaker 1: your podcast to get all the inside goss on the
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Speaker 1: in the production of the show. This episode marks the
Speaker 1: official start of twenty twenty three season of TV Reload,
Speaker 1: and I'm kicking off with Network ten's Australian Survivor Castaway,
Speaker 1: Benjamin Law. Benjamin Law is an Australian author and journalist.
Speaker 1: He is best known for his book The Family Law
Speaker 1: and the TV series of the same name. He is
Speaker 1: an activist and an LGBTI hero, and I'm so excited
Speaker 1: to have a chat with him today. Benjamin Law is
Speaker 1: certainly the unlikely casting we did not see coming, and
Speaker 1: today we will find out why and how he said
Speaker 1: yes to Australian Survivor.
Speaker 2: I've been a fan of the show, both the American
Speaker 2: and the Australian version, for a very very long time.
Speaker 1: Was he worried to lose control of his narrative and
Speaker 1: let produces show an unfiltered side of him?
Speaker 2: Whatever edit I get, there's a very easy path for
Speaker 2: them to give me a villains edit.
Speaker 1: Is he worried that Australia's opinion might change after the show.
Speaker 2: There will be moments where we're like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: just let the earth swallow me whole right now.
Speaker 1: We will find out what he thinks of Australian reality
Speaker 1: TV in general.
Speaker 2: There's really bad reality TV out there, and there's really
Speaker 2: good reality TV, and I think Survivor is the cream
Speaker 2: of the crop.
Speaker 1: I will also ask if he would ever do this
Speaker 1: kind of reality TV again.
Speaker 2: Look give Australian Survivor called again, I would I would
Speaker 2: consider it.
Speaker 1: We will also get some pretty exclusive stories from Benjamin Law,
Speaker 1: and I feel like this chat it's the perfect way
Speaker 1: to kick off the twenty twenty three season of endemol
Speaker 1: Shine Australia's Australian Survivor. However, we should probably get started
Speaker 1: and bring Benjamin Laura into the podcast. And guys, I
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed this episode. Hi, Benjamin Law, how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm good. Benjamin Morris, how are you?
Speaker 1: I'm very well. And I'm kind of laughing because this
Speaker 1: is a bit of a Benjamin Sandwich for us today,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: I think it's a ben Lasagne, given how many bends
Speaker 2: exist in our orbit. But that's another conversation for another time.
Speaker 1: That's a different podcast. And you know, this is really
Speaker 1: something that I didn't see coming. You know, someone told
Speaker 1: me that Benjamin Law was doing Australian Survivor and I
Speaker 1: was shocked to my very foundation. I mean, it's brilliant,
Speaker 1: but honestly, it was a huge shock. Yeah.
Speaker 2: When you say that sentence out loud, it doesn't sound correct,
Speaker 2: does it. Like? I had this conversation with it with
Speaker 2: a colleague early today in a meeting and she's like,
Speaker 2: am I right in seeing and saying that you are
Speaker 2: on the next season of Survivor because I've seen you
Speaker 2: post about it, I've seen the ads, but my brain
Speaker 2: still doesn't want to believe that's right. It feels like
Speaker 2: a very elaborate prank. And I told her if that
Speaker 2: was a prank, it would be the most elaborate prank
Speaker 2: in history, flying me two small stage in the show.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of moving parts with this particular prank.
Speaker 1: How much did you need a free holiday to Fiji
Speaker 1: to agree to doing something like this?
Speaker 2: Well, previous seasons have been shot in Fiji, but this
Speaker 2: season we're going back to where it all began because
Speaker 2: Survivor officionados might remember that seasons one and two of
Speaker 2: Australian Survivor were shot in Samoa and hasn't actually been
Speaker 2: back there. And then the last two years, as we've
Speaker 2: been muddling our way through a pandemic, the last two
Speaker 2: seasons have been in the Australian Outback. So this is
Speaker 2: actually not just a return to an overseas location, but
Speaker 2: a return to beautiful Samoa. So you've got someone from
Speaker 2: season one, Sammy Webb, who's like, I recognize that beach,
Speaker 2: I recognize where this challenge is it's quite nice that
Speaker 2: for this season, season eight, we've come full circle.
Speaker 1: Are you happy of being that it's in wetter climates
Speaker 1: as opposed to being in one of those seasons that
Speaker 1: was in the desert.
Speaker 2: Let's just say, I don't mind the wetness, but the
Speaker 2: wetness that you'll see us in Dua was not expected
Speaker 2: at least for how long that wetness lasted. Well, it
Speaker 2: really sounds like we're just, you know, going on about
Speaker 2: wetness a bit, which is really graphic, but we are
Speaker 2: talking about the weather. It does very early on affect
Speaker 2: our mood, our game, our ability to function. It's it's
Speaker 2: actually quite funny in retrospect, but you'll kind of see
Speaker 2: our brains and possibly our bodies rot as a result
Speaker 2: of that weather, which is actually quite lovely. If you're
Speaker 2: in Samoa with you know, a hotel, if you're in
Speaker 2: a room, you don't get those things.
Speaker 1: On Australians, how did this come about? I mean you
Speaker 1: have to tell me, so you're at home the phone calls?
Speaker 1: Did you apply? Everyone wants to know how does Benjamin
Speaker 1: Law end up on Australian Survivor.
Speaker 2: I've been a fan of the show, both the American
Speaker 2: and the Australian version, for a very very long time,
Speaker 2: to the point where sometimes when I talk to fellow
Speaker 2: Survivor fans and I tell them the fact that I
Speaker 2: got into the show in the single digit seasons, like
Speaker 2: I'm talking, I think I got into it season four,
Speaker 2: they look at me and they ask, how old are you?
Speaker 2: That's a fair question, because, as it turns out, in
Speaker 2: the Heroes tribe, after Jerry Gielch, I was the second
Speaker 2: oldest member of our tribe. It's a young person's game,
Speaker 2: and I'm not so young anymore. I was a huge
Speaker 2: fan of the Australian version, really really loved seasons that say,
Speaker 2: Pierre Miranda one and Haley Leek is obviously my queen.
Speaker 2: But I was actually having conversations about possibly being on
Speaker 2: a reality TV show and I was like, look, that's
Speaker 2: not really up my alley. Respect that show, but not
Speaker 2: quite for me. But hey, if Australian Survivors on the table,
Speaker 2: I said, jokingly, get them to give me a call sometime.
Speaker 2: And I think word got out and people thought the
Speaker 2: idea was either so delicious or ridiculous or both that
Speaker 2: eventually I did get a call and said, hey, are
Speaker 2: you serious, because we might be able to make something happen.
Speaker 2: And then I went through the whole interview and vetting
Speaker 2: process that everyone goes through, and long story short, because
Speaker 2: it was a long story. I had a few hiccups
Speaker 2: there along the way, but then it all became official,
Speaker 2: and I loved that I was able to do it
Speaker 2: first season back in a tropical paradise.
Speaker 1: You know, interestingly enough, you are a massive hero of mine,
Speaker 1: and so this theme of heroes versus villains is just
Speaker 1: so perfect for you. Your advocacy for the LGBTI community,
Speaker 1: amongst other causes, is one hundred percent worthy of this
Speaker 1: hero this hero title.
Speaker 2: That's really nice of you to say. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: if any of those skills necessarily translate to being on
Speaker 2: an island and building shelter and fires from scratch when
Speaker 2: you're doing really huge physical challenges up against elite athletes.
Speaker 2: But after I watched Brains Versus Braun, which was two
Speaker 2: seasons ago, also starring George and Haley, who are back
Speaker 2: for this season, I realized, actually, this isn't a game
Speaker 2: that's just about brute strength. Australian survivor probably has a
Speaker 2: reputation for being more physical than say the American version
Speaker 2: of the show, But I think over time it has
Speaker 2: shown a way for people like your Pa. Miranda's like
Speaker 2: your Hailey leaks to win. Haley's very physically capable, strong,
Speaker 2: and has incredible endurance that you wouldn't expect as viewers
Speaker 2: of her original season now know. But I do think
Speaker 2: there was a pathway to victory, and I just thought,
Speaker 2: I want to see what happens when you put someone
Speaker 2: like me in that environment, and by that environment, I
Speaker 2: mean a place that's completely not my natural habitat.
Speaker 1: Do you think the Australian Survivor community is going to
Speaker 1: be surprised by your time on the show? Actually, will
Speaker 1: all communities and audiences be surprised by what you bring
Speaker 1: to this series?
Speaker 2: I think there have been surprises all around, so say,
Speaker 2: from communities in which I inhabit. I work in the
Speaker 2: arts and the media. I have an academic past and
Speaker 2: history as well, and I think some people who haven't
Speaker 2: even really been exposed to that much reality TV in
Speaker 2: my orbit think, oh my god, I've never watched that show?
Speaker 2: Are you a part of that? I've seen the ads.
Speaker 2: This might be the first season I watch and I'm like,
Speaker 2: do watch it? Because there's really bad reality TV out there,
Speaker 2: and there's really good reality TV, and I think Survivor
Speaker 2: is the cream of the crop. It's not just about
Speaker 2: physical prowess, although it does have a lot of that.
Speaker 2: It's about politics, it's about strategy, it's about personality, and
Speaker 2: it's about people and I love stuff like that. Then
Speaker 2: there have been other people from say the Survivor community,
Speaker 2: and I think they know that I've been a fan
Speaker 2: for a while, so I think there seems to be
Speaker 2: a bit of warmth there. There's another dimension of surprise
Speaker 2: as well, which as I'm cast as a hero and
Speaker 2: like you say, I guess for the work that I've
Speaker 2: done with queer advocacy, people might see me in that way.
Speaker 2: But the last promo that's come out a grab of
Speaker 2: mine that's doing the rounds is I'll smile to your
Speaker 2: face and I'll burn your house down while you sleep.
Speaker 2: And I don't think that some people who might be
Speaker 2: familiar with at least one aspect of my public persona
Speaker 2: know that there's a little bit of a mercenary aspect
Speaker 2: in me. But I think queer people know that in
Speaker 2: order to survive in a world not built for us.
Speaker 2: You do what you have to, don't you.
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to watching you lean into that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I love people who give themselves up to
Speaker 1: this type of reality television. And you know, a good
Speaker 1: question to ask you about reality TV is what's your
Speaker 1: knowledge of it? I mean, are you a fan of
Speaker 1: survivor you've a fan of all of these shows? I mean,
Speaker 1: is this sort of pop culture something that you knew
Speaker 1: a lot about?
Speaker 2: So I feel like it's almost bad manners to mention
Speaker 2: on this podcast that I co host a radio show
Speaker 2: for ABC that comes out as a podcast too, and
Speaker 2: that's about pop culture. It's called Stop Everything, and my
Speaker 2: co hosts, Beverly Wang and I we do everything from
Speaker 2: you know, an art house movie that's nominated for the Oscars,
Speaker 2: right through to season seventeen fifty four of RuPaul's Drag Race.
Speaker 2: And I think within the reality realm, there's stuff that
Speaker 2: is arguably a little bit mindless. And I don't mean
Speaker 2: that in a bad or pejorative way. I mean that's
Speaker 2: it's light and you don't have to think too hard,
Speaker 2: and there's a place for that. And I also think
Speaker 2: there are reality TV shows that tell us about the
Speaker 2: world that we live in. Survivor is an obvious example.
Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes I think there's not that much difference
Speaker 2: between Australian Survivor and Australian Parliament. They're just wearing suits
Speaker 2: and ties.
Speaker 1: I just was wondering if you were worried about losing
Speaker 1: control of your narrative because you're giving producers a lot
Speaker 1: and going on reality TV can be really scary because
Speaker 1: there is a lot of footage that's been shot and
Speaker 1: you don't really know what they're going to choose to
Speaker 1: show us. Were you worried about what we will see
Speaker 1: and could this change the way that Australia has been
Speaker 1: seeing you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're absolutely right. You don't have the final say
Speaker 2: in what goes on the screen. And when the show
Speaker 2: broadcasts on January the thirtieth, episode one, that will be
Speaker 2: the first time that any of the contestants, that any
Speaker 2: of the survivors have seen the audience is seeing. We're
Speaker 2: all going to be seeing it at exactly the same time,
Speaker 2: and I'm pretty sure that for all of us, every
Speaker 2: single one of us, of the twenty four contestants, there
Speaker 2: will be moments where we're like, oh, my God, just
Speaker 2: let the earth swallow me whole right now. And I've
Speaker 2: been joking with the others that I'm really looking forward
Speaker 2: to just cringing our way through this with you. Like
Speaker 2: the cringing that we're about to experience might be the
Speaker 2: ultimate insurance test. And I think that's a way to
Speaker 2: see it, because it might be karma coming back to
Speaker 2: me in a way. Ben, Because I am a TV screenwriter,
Speaker 2: I've been working as an executive producer. I make TV,
Speaker 2: but usually on the scripted side of things, and I've
Speaker 2: always thought it's particularly cruel that the actors with whom
Speaker 2: we work are usually the last ones to see their performance.
Speaker 2: They are like us. They will see their performance when
Speaker 2: the rest of the audience see their performance. And I've
Speaker 2: always got terribly about that. And so I came into
Speaker 2: this TV Project's Australian Survivor knowing that you know, and
Speaker 2: I thought, well, fair cop. Like they these people who
Speaker 2: make year after year of amazing Australian reality TV. They
Speaker 2: know what they're doing and we are here to give
Speaker 2: them good material. And whether whatever edit I get, there's
Speaker 2: a very easy path for them to give me a
Speaker 2: villains edit. There's a very easy path for them to
Speaker 2: give me A heroic edit, haarrassing edit, a hilarious edit.
Speaker 2: I was shooting this almost in the back of my mind,
Speaker 2: going oh that is so unhinged what just happened. But
Speaker 2: you know what, that will be great TV. And I hope,
Speaker 2: I hope they use just what happened. So I'm not naive,
Speaker 2: but I am not relaxed either. But I am really
Speaker 2: looking forward to seeing what they've done with so much material, Ben,
Speaker 2: because they have cameras on us twenty four to seven
Speaker 2: that there is literally someone shooting us as we sleep,
Speaker 2: So yeah, you can make a lot of stories out
Speaker 2: of that, and we're all here for stories, right.
Speaker 1: Can you give me, on a scale of one to ten,
Speaker 1: how nervous are you about what we are about to see?
Speaker 2: Oh? It really depends on the day, and I think
Speaker 2: like some days I'm like super relaxed, but then I wonder,
Speaker 2: am I in denial? Am I gas lighting myself? And
Speaker 2: I'm just like I'm just also sometimes like, oh God,
Speaker 2: they are going to show that, aren't they. Like when
Speaker 2: I was doing terribly in some of the physical challenges,
Speaker 2: I'm like, yep, I would put that on TV because
Speaker 2: that was embarrassingly hilarious, you know what I mean. But simultaneously,
Speaker 2: if you've been online long enough, and you and I
Speaker 2: have been, everyone will have their own opinions of you.
Speaker 2: And I'm not terribly you know. That is not an
Speaker 2: alien experience to me. So other people being in control
Speaker 2: over your narrative, affirming set opinions about you, that's something
Speaker 2: I'm used to. That's not me going through that for
Speaker 2: the first time. I think for some of the other
Speaker 2: survivors it will it will be their first time, but
Speaker 2: of course half of the cast are returning players, and
Speaker 2: they know that once it goes to air, feelings change,
Speaker 2: and we're ready for that as well.
Speaker 1: Well. I think that you are a trailblazer, and to
Speaker 1: be a trailblazer you have to be comfortable standing outside
Speaker 1: of the crowd and backing yourself. You know, you've witnessed
Speaker 1: public scrutiny before and you've been able to defend yourself.
Speaker 1: And I think if you do something that's kind of
Speaker 1: nutsa and people apolarized by your behavior, I think again
Speaker 1: you'll be able to defend yourself.
Speaker 2: Hmmm. And I also think we contain multiple facets as well,
Speaker 2: Like I think when I look back at my game.
Speaker 2: There are heroic moments, there are villainous moments, and even
Speaker 2: though this is heroes versus villains, I can tell you
Speaker 2: right now we're going to see heroes doing villainous acts.
Speaker 2: We are going to see people from the villain tribe
Speaker 2: being absolutely heroic. And you know, the writer in me,
Speaker 2: Ben rejects the binary. We contain multitudes as human beings.
Speaker 2: But it might be a cliche to say, but I
Speaker 2: think it's such a good theme this year because the
Speaker 2: expectations versus the realities of who we are going into
Speaker 2: this game are going to be toppled in very interesting
Speaker 2: and fascinatingly human ways.
Speaker 1: Can I just quickly backtrack a little bit? I think
Speaker 1: audiences will be surprised. I didn't ask you this before,
Speaker 1: but what was the reality show that you were originally
Speaker 1: approached to be on? I mean allowed to tell me that.
Speaker 2: Well, look, we can rule out Real Housewives of Melbourne.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have been cast on the same show as
Speaker 2: Angelie Row for instance. I don't qualify for many reasons,
Speaker 2: and that's just not coming from a place of low
Speaker 2: self esteem people. But I am mindful that I don't
Speaker 2: want to say the other show because it's a really
Speaker 2: good show that a lot of my friends have actually
Speaker 2: been on. It's a show I respect, but it's not
Speaker 2: the kind of show that I would necessarily watch. And
Speaker 2: that's kind of my rule nowadays. I say yes to
Speaker 2: things that I'm already a fan of, which is why
Speaker 2: I said yes, yes, that, yes to this thing that
Speaker 2: has horrified a lot of people in my life. They're like,
Speaker 2: what I did, just so he yes to that, especially
Speaker 2: when I came back having lost a lot of weight
Speaker 2: and dignity.
Speaker 1: Did everyone in the cast know who you were? Because
Speaker 1: to me, you're the biggest name in the cast, But
Speaker 1: did all of the people know who you were? And
Speaker 1: did that affect your gameplay?
Speaker 2: Absolutely not? And this isn't coming from a place of
Speaker 2: modesty or false modesty. Even I didn't expect them to either.
Speaker 2: You know, Survivor always has its share of athletes and
Speaker 2: jocks and people from a realm that I'm not necessarily
Speaker 2: familiar with. So one of the biggest players this season
Speaker 2: is David's a Hirakas who is you know, a god
Speaker 2: on the AFL field. And I don't provoke my citizenship people,
Speaker 2: but I don't watch that much AFL, So it was
Speaker 2: a learning experience for me to be in David's orbit
Speaker 2: and to learn about his realm. I stopped watching Home
Speaker 2: and Away when I was a teenager, so I wasn't
Speaker 2: familiar with Shannie Vincent and her work. Like she's really
Speaker 2: well known here and abroad as well, not just for
Speaker 2: her work on Home and Away but elsewhere, and I
Speaker 2: wouldn't expect her to know my work. I mean, you
Speaker 2: probably know me through my queer advocacy. But if you're
Speaker 2: not really part of the queer community, if you're not
Speaker 2: tapped into the Asian Australian community, if you're not you know,
Speaker 2: a huge reader necessarily, or you haven't watched you know,
Speaker 2: the family law on SBS like I have, I have
Speaker 2: my thing gives him many pies, but that's not necessarily
Speaker 2: always a mainstream pie. As I'm saying these words, they're
Speaker 2: quite disgusting. Mainstream pie. What a disgusting phrase. But do
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like everyone's everyone's a kind
Speaker 2: of a fish in their own separate ponds. And I
Speaker 2: think that's why the casting this year in particular has
Speaker 2: been so good, which is what happens when you throw
Speaker 2: a Jillarou, who has to drive two and a half
Speaker 2: hours to her nearest grocery store, who lives in central Queensland,
Speaker 2: alongside this inner city tertiary educated homosexual with a PhD,
Speaker 2: who literally lives above a grocery store in the middle
Speaker 2: of the city. And you know, I'm referring to Page there,
Speaker 2: who's just the most remarkable human being. I've never met
Speaker 2: anyone like her. When you see her, you would just think,
Speaker 2: as we thought on the island constantly, a star is
Speaker 2: born because there is no one else like Page. But
Speaker 2: what happens when you put those two people together. We
Speaker 2: have very few opportunities in life to be thrust into
Speaker 2: a situation where we have to spend time with people
Speaker 2: who are not people would necessarily choose to spend time with.
Speaker 2: And what I love about Survivor is being surprised, both
Speaker 2: as a viewer and now as a contestant as to
Speaker 2: what happens when you throw these different creatures into a
Speaker 2: very very stressful situation in intimate confines, you know, like
Speaker 2: we were spooning each other strangers on night one, Like
Speaker 2: what other situation compels you to do such a thing?
Speaker 1: I love watching people from all walks of life, being
Speaker 1: forced to be together and then seeing how they get along.
Speaker 1: I mean, reality TV has been in Australia for over
Speaker 1: two decades and when it started it was more of
Speaker 1: a social experiment type of format. I think Australian Survivor,
Speaker 1: in my mind, is one of the only few shows
Speaker 1: that is still very much the human experiment, you know,
Speaker 1: the real fly on the wall type of entertainment.
Speaker 2: And I think you're absolutely on the money, because there
Speaker 2: are some shows I watch sometimes on reality TV that
Speaker 2: are so samy, not just in terms of you know, backgrounds,
Speaker 2: but also in terms of temperament as well. You're casting
Speaker 2: for the demographic that's just watching, so you can see
Speaker 2: the kind of cogs turn. But when I think of
Speaker 2: the casting on this show, We've got a former Real
Speaker 2: Housewife of Melbourne. We've got a pilot who has saved
Speaker 2: people's lives and has endured kind of, you know, many
Speaker 2: many instances of personal tragedy. We've got a Golden Boy
Speaker 2: surf life saver. This is very reductive, of course, because
Speaker 2: you know, as even as I point out these people's
Speaker 2: traits and perhaps their public brands, they almost seem cartoonish.
Speaker 2: But it is a kind of a delicious entry into
Speaker 2: people who are very complex, very surprising and when push
Speaker 2: comes to shove, behave in very surprising ways.
Speaker 1: What sort of physical training did you do? I mean,
Speaker 1: if I was going to be doing and survivor, I
Speaker 1: would be getting a personal trainer, I'd be beefing up.
Speaker 1: Did you do that or did you want to go
Speaker 1: in there just as you know yourself, like you've just
Speaker 1: been plucked out of the everyday, you know world that
Speaker 1: you live in.
Speaker 2: We know this is a podcast, so it's not a
Speaker 2: visual medium, but anyone who has seen me knows that
Speaker 2: I am not the biggest guy in real life, Like
Speaker 2: I'm short, Asian, pretty skinny, and compared to like Sammy Webb,
Speaker 2: Matt Sharp, David Taharraka, Sean Hamson, especially these absolute gods
Speaker 2: of physical prowess, the let's just say, the visual contrast
Speaker 2: will be very, very funny. So coming into the show, Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a total montage sequence that exists of me getting
Speaker 2: up at six am every morning working with a trainer
Speaker 2: who is also my physical who's also my physiotherapist, and
Speaker 2: he was I initially brought him on to help me
Speaker 2: train in a way that didn't aggravate an inn injury,
Speaker 2: but he got the sense that I was training for
Speaker 2: something and got really really involved, and over that time
Speaker 2: I put on a lot of weight. I was doing
Speaker 2: protein shakes. My god, my trainer said, look, I'm going
Speaker 2: to train you like an earlly athlete. My body's not
Speaker 2: built for that stuff. But I did all the stuff
Speaker 2: that athletes are supposed to, you know, put on good
Speaker 2: weight because I knew I would lose it really fast
Speaker 2: on the island. And what I discovered then is like
Speaker 2: that life is not for me. But I went into
Speaker 2: the show the biggest I've ever been, which when you
Speaker 2: see me on screen you'll laugh because you're like, that's big,
Speaker 2: What the hell? But it had afforded me to starve
Speaker 2: a bit, which is what the show puts you through,
Speaker 2: because we're only eating rice and beans and anything we
Speaker 2: can forage off the island, which, as it turns out,
Speaker 2: is not a huge light, although we were very lucky
Speaker 2: to have coconuts out there.
Speaker 1: I want people who are listening to this, who may
Speaker 1: not necessarily know you, to get a bit of an
Speaker 1: understanding of the magnitude of Benjamin Law. So I thought
Speaker 1: I would ask you this question. You know, you've given
Speaker 1: a voice to the LGBTI community for so long. What
Speaker 1: do you think needs our attention the most at this point,
Speaker 1: you know, looking off the back of say, the same
Speaker 1: sex marriage equality.
Speaker 2: Debate right now, I do get this sense that there
Speaker 2: are people within and without the queer communities that think, oh,
Speaker 2: same sex marriage was achieved, ding ding ding boss level.
Speaker 2: Fight for LGBT rights is over, victory daylight comes in,
Speaker 2: and everything's fine in the world of queer people and
Speaker 2: queer rights. And when you talk to young people especially,
Speaker 2: that's really not the case, and especially for young gender
Speaker 2: diverse people. I think it's getting better for say, same
Speaker 2: sex attracted young people, but even then, there are still
Speaker 2: a lot of stories of non acceptance from families and
Speaker 2: even schools. You know, there is still legislation state by
Speaker 2: state that allows institutions like schools and for older people,
Speaker 2: you know, hospitals and nursing homes to actually discriminate on
Speaker 2: the basis of sexuality and gender. It even allows you
Speaker 2: to discriminate on the basis of whether you're an employee
Speaker 2: or not on the basis of your sexuality and gender.
Speaker 2: I also worry about the culture wars that are swarming
Speaker 2: around gender diverse, gender questioning, and transgender and non binary
Speaker 2: kids and teenagers as well. Like one, I think it's
Speaker 2: a little bit creepy for grown adults to be like, oh, like,
Speaker 2: what's going on underneath their skirts and pants? Like their
Speaker 2: kids and teenagers just leave them alone. I think what
Speaker 2: we need to do is really support those people, and
Speaker 2: I do feel hopeful that this country at least hasn't
Speaker 2: fallen in a total trap like it has in the
Speaker 2: US and the UK, where the wars over this sort
Speaker 2: of stuff are really frothing. At the same time, you
Speaker 2: know Minus eighteen, which is an amazing lgbtiq A plus
Speaker 2: charity that really aims to support teenagers and kids from
Speaker 2: quick communities. They had to shut down a social event
Speaker 2: recently at the end of last year because it was
Speaker 2: literally targeted by neo Nazis. So sometimes I think we
Speaker 2: might want to think we're allowed to be relaxed, but
Speaker 2: the twin of being relaxed is complacency. And if you're
Speaker 2: complacent about the young people of our community, I think
Speaker 2: that really really puts them at risk of damage. Those
Speaker 2: are the people I worry about.
Speaker 1: I think that's true. I think that's very true. And
Speaker 1: I thought that you and Sally Rugg did an amazing
Speaker 1: job during the plebiscite. Do you think that there was
Speaker 1: any fatigue after that battle, you know, was finally won.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Sally's such a dear friend of
Speaker 2: mine and I wouldn't even put myself in the same
Speaker 2: level of her. And again this isn't out of modesty,
Speaker 2: but Sally was there actually agitating politicians and agitating for
Speaker 2: legislative change as her job in her spare hours, whereas
Speaker 2: I found myself kind of thrust into the spotlight. And
Speaker 2: to be honest, on a personal level, coming into that campaign,
Speaker 2: I was like, well, same sex marriage, I don't think
Speaker 2: it's really for me, so maybe this isn't really my fight.
Speaker 2: But as that debate raged and roared, I just found
Speaker 2: myself so infuriated by the stuff that people were allowed
Speaker 2: to say that they wouldn't have been able to say
Speaker 2: if that debate didn't exist in the first place. And
Speaker 2: you find yourself on the back foot, you find yourself
Speaker 2: in a situation where you don't want to say anything wrong.
Speaker 2: You know, you don't want to represent the community poorly.
Speaker 2: It was a period where so many queer people were
Speaker 2: stepping on eggshells, and at the same time I found
Speaker 2: it really disheartening that the queer community couldn't represent ourselves
Speaker 2: in the myriad ways in which we are. You know,
Speaker 2: some people are polyamorous, some people are trans, some people
Speaker 2: have relationships outside of same sex marriage. That it felt
Speaker 2: like no one was allowed to talk about those things
Speaker 2: because you had to put on the hat of respectability
Speaker 2: so the straits and the cisgender people would accept you,
Speaker 2: and I think that costs everyone.
Speaker 1: I was kind of leading you to that question because
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you if we had that playbiscite again,
Speaker 1: what do you think the public vote would look like.
Speaker 1: Do you think the numbers would be up or do
Speaker 1: you think they'd be down?
Speaker 2: Oh, I think it would absolutely increase. And I think
Speaker 2: the numbers I don't have them on top of hand,
Speaker 2: have probably bear that out. Like now that same sex
Speaker 2: marriage is legalized and the world didn't end, and the
Speaker 2: world didn't end, and people didn't marry the Sydney Harbor
Speaker 2: Bridge and you know, Tony Abbott didn't marry his bike
Speaker 2: mates or whatever Kevin Andrews said was going to happen,
Speaker 2: Like those absolutely ridiculous arguments proposed by Abbott and Abets
Speaker 2: and Kevin Andrews, like they just haven't come to pass right,
Speaker 2: And so I think people have moved on with their
Speaker 2: lives if not attended same sex weddings or been ambiently
Speaker 2: aware of same sex wedding and know that it's not
Speaker 2: a big deal.
Speaker 1: I think that we need a reality show about gay weddings.
Speaker 1: They are just two fabulous and I feel like there's
Speaker 1: just too much gold content to mine, you know, speaking
Speaker 1: of reality television and shows in the future, after doing
Speaker 1: Australian Survivor, would you ever think about doing another reality show?
Speaker 1: Like you're addicted?
Speaker 2: Oh look, if Australian Survivor called again, I would consider it,
Speaker 2: even though my forty something bones have been wearied by
Speaker 2: time and that experience. But it was the experience of
Speaker 2: a lifetime and I have no regrets whatsoever. I think
Speaker 2: the fun that we had on the island will will
Speaker 2: definitely be on screen, the fun and the horror together.
Speaker 2: And as for other reality TV shows, I think it's
Speaker 2: less about the genre and more about the fact that
Speaker 2: this was Australian Survivor, Like I really hold this particular
Speaker 2: show close to my heart, so I'll go where my
Speaker 2: heart wanders been.
Speaker 1: I've heard people and producers say that reality television is
Speaker 1: like crack cocaine, and you know, people can easily get
Speaker 1: very addicted to it, even if the experience can be
Speaker 1: quite painful.
Speaker 2: I do wonder whether it's like childbirth. I'll never birth
Speaker 2: a child myself, but you know, sometimes I've spoken to
Speaker 2: my friends who had children. They were like, yeah, that
Speaker 2: was an absolutely traumatizing experience. I've never been in so
Speaker 2: much pain in my entire life. I'm considering having another one,
Speaker 2: and it's like, where is this coming from. So as
Speaker 2: I've come back and I'm telling my partner and my
Speaker 2: family about stuff that happened to me and what it
Speaker 2: put my body through, and then I'm like, yeah, and
Speaker 2: if the opportunity came up again, I might consider it.
Speaker 2: They're like, what are you talking about? Did you not
Speaker 2: hear the story you just told about the time that
Speaker 2: mosquitos attacked you to the point where you could basically
Speaker 2: not function mentally anymore? Like horror, horror, horror, But there's
Speaker 2: something about it. When you've been through such deprivation, you've
Speaker 2: pushed yourself to the physical limit that is euphoric. I'm
Speaker 2: actually doing a two kilometer chart pread swim for minus
Speaker 2: eighteen soon and if anyone wants to donate to that,
Speaker 2: just find the links on my Instagram account, mister Benjamin Law.
Speaker 2: We'd love your donations. And I'm not a naturally great swimmer.
Speaker 2: I was actually the worst swimmer in my entire year
Speaker 2: level of two hundred and fifty when I was growing up.
Speaker 2: But there is something euphoric about being able to push
Speaker 2: your body to another limit that you didn't know it
Speaker 2: was able to was able to do. And I think
Speaker 2: Survivors similar you come out on a rush. As much
Speaker 2: as you're traumatized, depleted and kind of violated, you do
Speaker 2: come out on well, at least for me, a bit
Speaker 2: of a high as well.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to watch you in this out. I
Speaker 1: think this chat has only made me more excited. So
Speaker 1: before you go, everyone who joins the podcast gets asked
Speaker 1: this question, what is something from behind the scenes, something
Speaker 1: that we won't see that's kind of like a behind
Speaker 1: the scenes secret from filming Australian Survival.
Speaker 2: What can I tell you about the production secrets of
Speaker 2: Survivor without actually letting you know the production Secrets of Survivor. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what I found interesting was like all the stills that
Speaker 2: you see of us when they were taken, Like, there
Speaker 2: are scenes of us that are quite dirty, that's oil
Speaker 2: and dirt. And then later on I was just like, Wow,
Speaker 2: they really didn't need to stage that, because we are
Speaker 2: the filthiest we've ever been in our lives.
Speaker 1: What about the heroes versus villains poses? I mean, I
Speaker 1: can imagine being a villain would be easy because all
Speaker 1: you need to do is look angry, But what about
Speaker 1: the heroes posts did they say pretend to be Thor
Speaker 1: or some other Marvel superhero.
Speaker 2: No, we all have to like have what they call
Speaker 2: game face on, and that's both for the stills cameras
Speaker 2: and the moving cameras game face on. But to be honest,
Speaker 2: we don't have to really stretch ourselves because our game
Speaker 2: face is just constantly on. Once the game has started,
Speaker 2: you were like, I have to get through this challenge
Speaker 2: to the end. Alive would be a good bare minimum,
Speaker 2: but winning would be really good as well. So I'm
Speaker 2: not sure if I'm always expressing game face or deep constipation.
Speaker 2: But if you sense constipation in some of the shots
Speaker 2: of me on the show. It's probably because I am
Speaker 2: Rice and Beans. It does a lot tepper guys.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and
Speaker 1: I think this has been the perfect tease for the
Speaker 1: Australian Survivor that twenty twenty three series. I hope audiences
Speaker 1: love watching my special guest today, Benjamin, as he takes
Speaker 1: center stage on the twenty twenty three series on Network ten. Ben,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I cannot wait to watch and
Speaker 1: I will hopefully get a chance to chat to on
Speaker 1: the other side of this.
Speaker 2: Enjoy what is going to be the most chaotic, hectic
Speaker 2: and hilarious season. I can say that with some authority.
Speaker 2: Thanks mate, Thanks Ben.