1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: The endless stream of incoming emails, texts, notifications, tasks to 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: add to the to do list. It's enough to make 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: anyone feel a bit anxious, and that's just work. Whether 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: it's being overdiagnosed or just better understood, the anxiety conversation 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: is everywhere right now, and for good reason. It cripples 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: your ability to concentrate, It ruins your sleep, and it 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: scatters your mind. So how do you overcome it, or, 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: better yet, how do you turn it into a superpower? 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: Sarah Wilson has done just that, and she's on a 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: crusade to help others do the same. She's also a 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: devoted climate advocate and the woman behind the eye Quit 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: Sugar movement. So what's she currently doing to manage her 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: anxiety while juggling such an overwhelming schedule. My name is 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: doctor Amanthea. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: Behavioral science Consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work, 16 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: a show about how to help you do your best 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: work like me, I have always seen Sarah Wilson as 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: a bit of an experimenter, and I know that over 19 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: the years she's tried all sorts of things to manage 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: her anxiety, so I wanted to know what she's currently 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: doing regularly to manage it. 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, look, I sort of manage my anxiety in 23 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: quite a chaotic way, which I know goes against all 24 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 2: the rules. But I have worked out that I need 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: to be able to read the situation. That said, I 26 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: do have a morning routine, and that's probably the thing 27 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: that's the most consistent in my life, and it's. 28 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 3: Almost non negotiable. 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: So my morning routine is to essentially get up and 30 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: do exercise straight away. So I do some form of 31 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 2: exercise this morning. I did waits for fifteen minutes because 32 00:01:59,080 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: it's raining. 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: But generally I will try to get outside. 34 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: So I'll just go for a run, I'll jump in 35 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: the ocean and do some you know, do a lap 36 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: across Bondai where I live. I try to get outdoors. 37 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 2: I don't think about it too much. I just go 38 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: and even if it's for fifteen twenty minutes, it's enough. 39 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 3: I then get back and I meditate, and I meditate reluctantly. 40 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: I'm not zen about it. I'm slightly like, oh, I 41 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: just want to get on with my day. I'm impatient 42 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: about it, but I still. 43 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 3: Do it, and I know it works. I suppose The. 44 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: Other thing is I generally try to exercise again later 45 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: in the day. Like exercise is the thing that makes 46 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: a really big difference to me. I don't own a car, 47 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: and that's in part to force me to either ride 48 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: a bike or to walk everywhere. And I have to 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: say that has been my life saver movement. Engaging with 50 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: my body is the thing that really modulates my anxiety best, 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: I would say. And then the other thing hiking, So 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: exercising in nature, I do that as often as I can. 53 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: Many of you might know of these sort of studies 54 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: in and around forest fading, the idea of exercising in nature, 55 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: just moving in nature. There's something like forty thousand studies 56 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 2: that have been done to show that the body responds 57 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: so incredibly to that idea of literally just walking in 58 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: a natural environment. 59 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: Now you talk about something called soul nerding. Can you 60 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: tell me what that is exactly? 61 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 62 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 2: Look, it came from another philosopher and he was referring 63 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: to the fact that there's traditional religion, then there's sort 64 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: of contemporary spirituality that draws from Eastern traditions. 65 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: And then he sort of said, look, there's a third way, 66 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: and it's sort of soul nerding. 67 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: Soul learning is the practice of essentially reading or absorbing 68 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: yourself in art forms created by others who were suffering 69 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: similar conditions or going through a particular period in history 70 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: that's similar to our own. So it's generally pros or 71 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: beautiful prose or poetry. It might be beautiful classical music. 72 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: It's anything that can elevate the spirit, you know what 73 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: I mean, And to treat it as something that you 74 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: go and study, that you delve into not just because 75 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: you're interested, but as a way as a form of 76 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: spiritual practice of connecting back in. And I actually find 77 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: that an incredibly beautiful technique to engage in. You know, 78 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: sometimes I can get a bit impatient with reading, like oh, 79 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: I've got other things to do. But when I absorb 80 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 2: myself in a way that's sort of I suppose, like 81 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: a spiritual practice where I'm like, I'm doing this to 82 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: actually connect with the human spirit. It is actually a 83 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 2: really wonderful thing. I mean, it's not only that you 84 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: start to realize you're not alone. You know, Robinson Cruso 85 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: in your Pain right, you can see that Virginia Wolf, 86 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 2: for real key or whoever it might be, went through 87 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: the same human acts, and that makes you feel less 88 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 2: alone in your pain, which then in itself enables you 89 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: to open up and move forward in a more progressive way. 90 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: But the other aspect of it is that the actual 91 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: engagement with the pace of some of these beautiful creations 92 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 2: slows the thoughts down to that sort of discerning thought 93 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: pace that is actually most natural and comfortable for us. So, 94 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: you know, when you read poetry, you can't speed read poetry, 95 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: you know. I mean it's the same with when you 96 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 2: go to see an art you know, gallery, and you're 97 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: looking at artwork, sure you I mean I tend to 98 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: do speed art because I'm a very impatient person. But 99 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: you know, something will capture you and the image will 100 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 2: just stick with you and it will be like an 101 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: awareness of the care of the brushstrokes of the artist, 102 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 2: you know. And I think that that's that process that 103 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: can actually get us, so I think, connected back into ourselves, 104 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 2: connected into the natural pace of things. 105 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that, yeah, that's soul merding. 106 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: I've heard you say that anxiety can be a superpower, 107 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: and I'm curious as to how you put that mindset 108 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: shift into action when you're right in the heart of 109 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: something making you really stressed or anxious. 110 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, to the first part of that, anxiety was 111 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: deemed something that was quite a special peculiarity. Throughout history, 112 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: people who have displayed OCD characteristics or bipolar characteristics were 113 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 2: often the shaman or the community leaders, the spiritual leaders 114 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 2: in various communities, because they was sort of deemed to 115 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: be particularly sensitive and to have this superpower that enabled 116 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: the community, the tribe, the clan to survive. Like it 117 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 2: was the OCD person sitting on the outskirts of a 118 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: clan that could hear the tiger rustling, you know, in 119 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: the middle of the night, and it was the bipolar 120 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 2: person who would venture over the hill and be brave 121 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 2: enough to go into new territory and come back and go, hey, guys, 122 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: they've invented the thing called the wheel over there. 123 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 3: We should get onto it. 124 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: You know, we always needed these sort of quirks, and 125 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: you know, the studies have shown that throughout history and 126 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: across cultures. You know, these types of mental quirks existed 127 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: in about one point two to one point four percent 128 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: of the population, and that still exists today. I think 129 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: there's some over reporting and probably some more understanding of 130 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: a spectrum of disorders that mean that sometimes the numbers 131 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: are reported as higher, but some people would say that 132 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: that figure is still consistent today. Now what that says 133 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: to me is, oh, there's always meant to be a 134 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: particular part of the population that are going to have 135 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 2: these particular superpowers. 136 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 3: Now, what's happened. 137 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: In the last one hundred years or so is that 138 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 2: we've medicalized these conditions and deemed them problematic and then 139 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: you know, slapped on a diagnosis, handed over medication to 140 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: basically eradicate eliminate these behaviors. And what that's done, of course, 141 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: is stigmatize the experience so that you know, I know 142 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: for myself, you know, I grew up believing I had 143 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 2: to get rid of my bipolar condition before I could 144 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: get on with my life, right. 145 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 3: Before my doctor could deem me okay. 146 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: Now, if we'd flipped the model and gone, okay, this 147 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: person with bipolar needs to be nurtured and looked after. 148 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: They're particularly sensitive. 149 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: However, if they're nurtured there, they're most likely going to 150 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 2: go and do some great stuff for humanity. And so yeah, 151 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 2: I think that is something that needs to be recognized. Now, 152 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: as to the second part of your question, how do 153 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 2: I absorb that? Partly by soul nerding to be honest, 154 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: I read the works of people who've had similar conditions 155 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: to me, or have just simply been highly sensitive people 156 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: throughout history, and I absorb how they managed to use 157 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: this condition to create and to expand thought. So that's 158 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: one thing I do. I mean, I do have to 159 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: have a conversation with myself regularly to remind myself of 160 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: the truth of it, because you know, one hundred years 161 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: plus of this idea that you know it's a problem 162 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: and we've got to get rid of it has had 163 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: its impact on. 164 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: My brain, you know, and my conditioning. 165 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: I suppose I also have to allow a certain amount 166 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: of wildness in my life where the extremes of my 167 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 2: need to express are able to unfurl, if that makes sense, 168 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: because if I try to put the brakes on it 169 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: too much, or if I try to suffocate it and 170 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: eradicate it, it causes even more anxiety. And I say 171 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: in my book First We Make the Best Beautiful that 172 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: the thing about anxiety today is that we don't just 173 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: get anxious, we get anxious about being anxious. Then we 174 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: get anxious about being anxious about being anxious, and then 175 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 2: it just dominos exponentially from there. And what I say is, 176 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: we need to learn to do anxiety once, and that 177 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: practice is really important to me. I say to myself 178 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: quite regularly, Sarah, you are currently doing anxiety. And what 179 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 2: I do is I just allow that to be and 180 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: I watch the emotions. I go, okay, now, why is 181 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: that happening? All right, rather than getting anxious about the 182 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: fact that I'm anxious, because that then just makes it 183 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: twice as bad, if not multiples of four, ten, you know, 184 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: whatever it might be. So that's probably one of the 185 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: most successful things that I can do. 186 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 3: And I generally do it while. 187 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: Walking, Like if I'm going through that, if I'm starting 188 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: to feel the anxiety build up, I just put down 189 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: my computer mouse and I just walk out the door 190 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: and I'll walk around the blox for five ten minutes 191 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: and that's enough, and I just say to myself, all right, 192 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: this is anxiety. 193 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 3: It's doing its thing. 194 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 2: We interpret excitement and anxiety in the same part of 195 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: the brain, and we often can't tell the difference. So 196 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 2: another little thing that I often say to myself is, Sarah, 197 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: choose to be excited, and quite often my anxiety is because. 198 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 3: My excitement for life has led me down a. 199 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: Path where I've thrown myself into something exciting and I'm 200 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: legitimately nervous because it's new and it's fresh. 201 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 3: But we've been conditioned to go. 202 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm anxious, you know, let's walk at this, you know, 203 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 2: remove myself from the edge. And over the years I've 204 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 2: managed to sort of convince myself, remind myself, no, this 205 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: is just exciting, and don't leave the edge. And there's 206 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: Pema children, the beautiful American Buddhist noun and said, the 207 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 2: edge is where we're meant to be, right, We're meant 208 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: to be out at our edge. But as I say, 209 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: you know, our culture says, no, withdrawal from the edge. 210 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,479 Speaker 3: You're not meant to feel. 211 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: Anxious, you know, And in fact that means you're not 212 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 2: meant to feel excited. And so yes, it's a constant conversation. 213 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: I'm having this myself to counter the dominant discussion around anxiety. 214 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: I can definitely relate to that. I was aware in 215 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: my own body that the reaction I would have, say 216 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: before giving a big keynote speech or you know, doing 217 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: a podcast interview, particularly in the early days of doing 218 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: how I work, I would feel anxious and my tummy 219 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: would be churning. And then I noticed that, hang on, 220 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: that's the same feeling I have when I'm excited about something. 221 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: And for me, that's been so useful doing that mental 222 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: reframe of thinking, oh, no, I'm just excited and I'm 223 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: pushing myself out of my comfort zone into something that 224 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: is hopefully going to be really good and have an impact. 225 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 3: That's right. 226 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: But I think also mant I'll just add to that, 227 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: like I also think that, I mean, I get anxious 228 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: before I do, you know, any kind of public talk, 229 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 2: before any of my podcast interviews, and I almost don't 230 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: trust myself if I'm not anxious, if you know what 231 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 2: I mean, if I'm not feeling that fluttery feeling, because 232 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 2: it's like it means I don't care, you know. And 233 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: I think that's something that we've got to bear in 234 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 2: mind as well, like, yeah, we're meant to feel anxious 235 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: about or at least heightened and so on about things 236 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: we care about. 237 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: Now, something that we have in common is that we 238 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: are both sugar free. I've been sugar free for about 239 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: eight years. And the big difference is that you let 240 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: a global movement around quitting sugar and I did not. 241 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about how in your own 242 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: life you link what you feed yourself and put into 243 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: your body with your mental health and just how you're 244 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: able to, you know, come to the world every day 245 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: and come to work. 246 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: Okay, So I quit sugar, except I also do eat 247 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: a bit of sugar. 248 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: Like I'm not stringent about it, and I never was. 249 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: And that was part of my program in the business, 250 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: was you quit for the eight weeks so that your 251 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: body can completely recalibrate and determine for itself how much 252 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: sugar it can handle. And really the program was about 253 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: getting people alive. 254 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 3: To their bodies and what their bodies needed. 255 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: And generally most humans find that they can handle between 256 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: six to nine teaspoons of. 257 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 3: Added sugar a day. 258 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: I would eat six to nine teaspoons of added sugar 259 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 2: most days, you know, in some form or another. But 260 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 2: I'm discerning about it, because once you know how much 261 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: sugar is in certain foods, you can't unsee it, can you, 262 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: And so you make different kinds of choices. 263 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 3: So how do I eat? I'm not saying to do 264 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 3: this at home. 265 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: However, for me, what I've worked out is between two 266 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: to three pieces of dark ninety percent chocolate every morning. 267 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: Like that is my breakfast, usually with a few brazil nuts, 268 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: and that I'm just not a breakfast person. 269 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 3: I never have been. Breakfast food does not excite me. 270 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: So I tend to do that, and then around about 271 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: eleven or twelve, I will eat a really big lunch. 272 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: And I've always eaten lunch like I mean it, none 273 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: of this little salad business or one sushi roll or 274 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: something like. It's you know, it's a really solid meal. 275 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: So I work from home, but even if I don't, 276 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: I always make my lunch. 277 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 3: I eat so some form of protein. 278 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: I've got a thyroid condition, which means I find it 279 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: very difficult to metabolize protein in non meat products. It's 280 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: not great, but I get around it by buying set 281 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: of meat that is discounted, and I make these big stews. 282 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: So I've always got these stews that have got. 283 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: Lots of vegetables and they max the meat, and then 284 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: dinner is pretty. 285 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 3: Much the same as lunch. Now. 286 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: A big glad I've work for you is as a 287 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: climate advisor and activist and I know something you're passionate 288 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: about is called the missing peace, which is to make 289 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: the new way more charming than the older. I love 290 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: that word charming. Tell me how do you do that 291 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: in practice? Yeah? 292 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: I think in the climate battle, like, we're often just 293 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: trying to go can't you see that this is not 294 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: the right way to do things? You know, and it's 295 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: just not how the human brain operates. We have to 296 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: be seduced into new ways, and it's all kinds of 297 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: cognitive biases and dissonances at play there. What I've found is, yes, 298 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: as you say, to create change, we have to make 299 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: the new way more charming than the status quo. So 300 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: for me, I don't try to sort of talk about, 301 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: you know, all the sacrifices I make in my life. 302 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: Instead legitimately, like because I actually believe it. 303 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: I try to show that, for instance, not owning a 304 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 3: car is. 305 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: Actually joys because it frees you up. You have so 306 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 2: much more flow in your life, you know. I use 307 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: the example I want spoke at a festival, a food 308 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: and wine festival, and the head of the she's also 309 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: a journalist. She was interviewing me on a panel. I said, oh, 310 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: you know, isn't it ridiculous? These people who drive a 311 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: car to the gym to go and sit on a 312 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 2: stationary bike for an hour. Then they you know, drive home, 313 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: have a shower, get into the car again and drive 314 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 2: to work. And I'm like, why wouldn't you just ride 315 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: to work? And she went, oh, my god, you've just 316 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: described me. I'm that person, and she just she still 317 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 2: contacts me to say I still am reflecting on that, 318 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: and she actually ended up buying a bike and she 319 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 2: rides to work, which is great. But it's just sort 320 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: of like, I think a lot of people just need 321 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: to be shown that this other way of living is 322 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 2: actually so much more enjoyable. 323 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: What are some other examples where you've used charm to 324 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: change behavior? 325 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: Well, I suppose I can use a little bit of humor, 326 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: and I also try to use sexy people. 327 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 3: On campaigns, if that makes sense. So I did a. 328 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: Campaign here in Bondai called fuck the Cup We got 329 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 2: I think it was in the end between eighty and 330 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: one hundred cafes on board to go take away coffee 331 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: cup free for a week. And so you know, you 332 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: get together a really cool T shirt I got, you know, 333 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,959 Speaker 2: one of Australia's best graphic designers to design it, and. 334 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 3: Then I got a whole bunch of cool people from 335 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 3: around Bondo to wear it. 336 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 2: And there's a you know, some of them cut the 337 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: sleeves off and turn them into tanks. And so I 338 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: suppose I do a little bit of that kind of 339 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: thing if I'm doing a campaign like you know, I 340 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: think it was Seth Godin sort of taught me this 341 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: when we were talking about how to shift people's perspective 342 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 2: on capitalism, and he said, the best way is to 343 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 2: have imagery that says, you know, people like us do 344 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: things like this, And he was actually. 345 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 3: Referring to Harley Davidson. 346 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: He said, Harley Davidson had a massive brand restructure however 347 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: many years ago, and they just got cool people writing 348 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: Harley's and you know how, you know, a holy for 349 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: celebrities all of a sudden got into writing Harley's, you know. 350 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: And so that's sort of what I apply to a 351 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 2: lot of the things that I do. I just try 352 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: to make it look like happy people who look like 353 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: they've got it, you know, their shit together, do things 354 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: like this like use a Kei cup, you know, hike, 355 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 2: ride a bike that kind of thing, and it's just 356 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: about normalizing a different kind of image. 357 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: I must say, even though I've been on this planet 358 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: for forty five years, I've only recently discovered the joys 359 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: of bushwalking. I always like just associated bushwalking with spiders 360 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 1: and bugs and things that I don't like. 361 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 3: But because there are there are those. 362 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: Things, but my goodness, it's it's very very addictive. One 363 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: question I have, like, I feel like still when I 364 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: think about, you know, on the weekend, maybe going for 365 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: a bushwalk with my partner, I still feel like, oh, well, 366 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: I have to factor in like lots of travel time 367 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: because I'm an inner city person and the bush is 368 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: out somewhere, far far away. How how do you encourage 369 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: people like me to challenge that and go, well, actually 370 00:19:59,080 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: it can be easy. 371 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well just enter into some flow, get into 372 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 2: some cool flow with it all. So I often take 373 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: my friends walking, and these are very car centric friends, 374 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 2: and they're like, oh, so, yeah, shall we meet at 375 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: the couple. I'm like, no, we're catching the train. So 376 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: I turned that into the part of the excursion. So 377 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: you know, I will go and get my keep cup 378 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 2: and I get a coffee, and I have a certain spot, 379 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 2: which is near Central Station here in Sydney, I get 380 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 2: food for the train and on Saturday and a Sunday, like, 381 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: the trains are not that busy, you know, so part 382 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 2: of the. 383 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 3: Fun is getting on a train. The train lines often. 384 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 2: Go sort of through beautiful bushland as they're getting out 385 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 2: of there. So most of the cities in Australia have 386 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: some form of public transport which will head you out 387 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: into a cool area. Now and if you're driving, you know, 388 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 2: I know, some cities and areas don't, you know, don't 389 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: have national parks accessible by public transport. So yes, by 390 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: all means, but turn it into an event, like if 391 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 2: you're going on your own basically, choose a really cool 392 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: podcast to listen to, preferably yours online, and. 393 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 3: You know, enjoy the process of it. Get it, get 394 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: your coffee. 395 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: In the car, you know, take you know, a non 396 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: takeaway coffee cup, and enjoy the process of getting there. 397 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: It's part of the adventure, like working out on the map, 398 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 2: you know, et cetera, et cetera. And what else are 399 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 2: you going to do? You know, to quote to quote 400 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 2: Mary Oliver, what else are you going to do with 401 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: your one wild and precious life like I mean, I 402 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 2: don't know what people do on weekends, but from what 403 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 2: I observe, there's a lot of wasting of time. And 404 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: I think as the amount of time people spend trying 405 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 2: to find a car spot in a car park in 406 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 2: a shopping mall, like that time could be spent going off, 407 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: you know, getting to a national park. 408 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: We will be back with Sarah soon and we'll be 409 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: talking about how she thinks about what she takes on 410 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: as a word project versus what she thinks about as 411 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: just a hobby. If you're looking for more tips to 412 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: improve the way that you work, I write a short 413 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered 414 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: that helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets 415 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: that I'm loving through the interesting research findings. You can 416 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Howiwork dot code. That's how 417 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: I Work dot co. Something I often ask people about 418 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: on this show is how their ways of working have 419 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: changed since COVID, But I think from what I gather 420 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: for you, it's gone even deeper than just how you work. 421 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: It's changed the way that you think. Can you tell 422 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: me about how the pandemic's changed the way that you think. 423 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 3: Everybody had their unique experience. 424 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 2: I had a foster child with with me, a teenager 425 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 2: who was going through all kinds of challenges, like my goodness, 426 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 2: what she didn't go through during the lockdown, So she 427 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 2: moved in within two weeks. We went to lockdown together 428 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: with homeschooling the whole thing. So that was quite unique. 429 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 2: But I suppose in many ways it got me. 430 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 3: To come in close. 431 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 2: I think that's probably what it did in terms of 432 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,239 Speaker 2: my working style and the way that I had to 433 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 2: live and my expectations. 434 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 3: It brought everything in more intimate. 435 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 2: And granular, and you know, I had to make, like 436 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: everybody else, you know, adventures out of you know, within 437 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: a five cometter radius, and I tell. 438 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: You what, there was not a square inch of And 439 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 3: I live on. 440 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: The coastline, so I got half of that radius, if 441 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, because the other half was 442 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: the ocean. You know, I found like walks that went 443 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: along you know, rock out crops, and you know, I 444 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: found these really cool places to swim. 445 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 3: So I maxed it from. 446 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 2: That point of view, and it was kind of fun, 447 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 2: you know, to fell to the rim of what I 448 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 2: was able to do. But I think in general, the 449 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 2: big takeaway for me is that COVID was the great revealer. 450 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 3: You know. 451 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 2: It was sort of almost like the wound was festering, 452 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 2: but COVID tore the band aid off and showed us 453 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: what was existing there. And you know, there were sort 454 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 2: of nice moments where we all went we all sort 455 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: of reverted back to an aspect of our human nature, 456 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: which is that desire to commune and connect and help, right, 457 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: and we saw elements of that. I've got to say 458 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: it probably didn't last as long as I'd like to 459 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 2: have seen it, and as long as we all thought 460 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: it might did. With the anti consuming, like, we all 461 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: did stop for a bit, you know, because I think 462 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: that that wound that we saw under there, it actually 463 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: horrified us a little bit, and we actually went, oh, 464 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: let's be a little bit more the other way for 465 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 2: a while. But of course, you know, the COVID well, 466 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: the pandemic started to shift and we all went back 467 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: to consuming, you know, and in fact, consumption has gone 468 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 2: back to higher levels than before pandemic, which is frightening. 469 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 3: But I suppose I guess we did get an inklean 470 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 3: insight into it. 471 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 2: And I also, you know, I interview a lot of 472 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: people from overseas, and I think the impact was much 473 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: bigger in other parts of the world, where it came 474 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: off the back of austerity measures in some cases also 475 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 2: a financial collapse or at least financially tough times that 476 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 2: Australia had been cocooned from. Although we seem to be 477 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 2: getting bruised by it now, I think that other cultures, 478 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: other places in the world did learn a little bit 479 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: more from it. But yes, you asked me about my 480 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 2: learnings and practices. 481 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I suppose. Yes, it's kind of coming. 482 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: In intimate and granular and you know, you know, when 483 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: you're a kid and or if you have children, you'll 484 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: watch them and you can give them the most fabulous toy, 485 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: but they'll often find the box more exciting. 486 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: You know. 487 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: Or if they're if you're sort of at a friend's 488 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: place and they haven't got toys and the kid just 489 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 2: goes and finds a patch dirt in the back of 490 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 2: the backyard, they'll actually create lots of fun, Like they'll 491 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: max that bit of dirt, you know what I mean, 492 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: They'll make the most of it. I think that's what 493 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,239 Speaker 2: we experienced, and I certainly experienced it. I had to 494 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 2: pivot and do different things and reinvent, and it was good. 495 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: It was good, it was creative. 496 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: When I was researching for this interview, it's just so 497 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: apparent that you just have done so many different things 498 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: in your life that fall into the work bucket. And 499 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: something that got me really curious is how do you 500 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: know when something that you're interested in is a hobby 501 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: or if it's your next work project. 502 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 3: Oh, I don't have hobbies, Like I often say to people, Gosh, 503 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: I wish I had a hobby. 504 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: But the thing is, my hobbies have always turned into 505 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: work projects. I mean when I was twelve or eleven, 506 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,239 Speaker 2: I was. I grew up in the country, and I 507 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 2: was bored out of my brains like a drought. There 508 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 2: was nothing to do. There wasn't enough money to pay 509 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: for petrol to go into town ever, so we did nothing, 510 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: like we just played in essentially, you know, there's a 511 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 2: whole I had four brothers and a sister, and I 512 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: was so bored. But I did get a sort of 513 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 2: a set of Femo you know that modeling clay, Ye know, Well, 514 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 2: so I got some Femo for Christmas or something, and 515 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: I started playing around with it, and I wasn't content 516 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 2: to leave it as a hobby, like I ended up 517 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: turning it into a business and I ended up making 518 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: tolls house furniture for a really bourgeois toy shop in Canberra. 519 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 3: And then I started painting. I got also, I used 520 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 3: to have some fabric paints. 521 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 2: I used to make library bags and I painted them, 522 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: you know, and sell them in two different toy shops. Actually, 523 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: so I've always converted whatever I'm doing. Like my family 524 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: used to call me the little capitalist, which is hilarious 525 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 2: for anyone who knows me, because I rail against it. 526 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 3: Like I love Ernie money, I just then give it away. 527 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 2: So I suppose, yeah, I don't see a distinction for me, 528 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: I'm producing and creating or I'm not. 529 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 3: You know. So even when I'm hiking, I'm generating ideas. 530 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 2: I quite often hike to actually sort out my head, 531 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: you know, when I'm trying to work out a project 532 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: that I. 533 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 3: Meant to be doing. 534 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 2: So yeah, I've never delineated. Like I loved writing, so 535 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,239 Speaker 2: I started just writing for newspapers and eventually I got 536 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 2: so annoying they gave me a. 537 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 3: Job, you know, that kind of thing. 538 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: And when I have big jobs, they tend to take 539 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 2: over to the and I've always had jobs where it's 540 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: not I've never had a job which is nine to five. 541 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: Ever in my life, when I was editor of Cosmo, 542 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 2: you were expected to do evening. 543 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 3: That was my social life. 544 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: Like I had to go to you know, the launch 545 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: of a lipstick, you know, or something after work, and 546 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: then there was networking that you had to do. And 547 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 2: I loved it, to be honest, you know. So No, 548 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: I've never delineated. I know some people. I mean, I 549 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: admire people with hobbies. I love men with hobbies like 550 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 2: I fall in love with them. I'm like, I just 551 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: love that sort of passion. But I yeah, I just 552 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 2: haven't ever been that way. 553 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about your process for I 554 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: guess noodling on problems when you're hiking, Like, do you 555 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: predetermine the problem that you want to think about or solve. 556 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 3: On the hike. 557 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: Do you have a notebook or a dictaphone or something 558 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: with you? How does that work? 559 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 3: Yeah? 560 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: I often walk with it, just a piece of ratty 561 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 2: paper down my bra because I often don't take a backpack. 562 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 2: If it's a three hour under a three hour walk, 563 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: I'll just hike with just a credit card, a piece 564 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 2: of paper and a pencil down my bra and yeah, 565 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 2: and I'll sit down and write, or I will sometimes 566 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: dictate into my phone, but I don't like doing that 567 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: kind of break. 568 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 3: I don't know. 569 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 2: I'm a handwriter. I handwrite all of my books first, 570 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: because I just find again, a handwriting goes at the 571 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,479 Speaker 2: same pace as discerning thought, you know, whereas typing's too fast. 572 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 2: I will often have a particular problem, like sometimes I 573 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 2: go for a hike when I am in such a 574 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: like lost and locked in space in my head, and 575 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 2: I just cannot solve an issue, and I just have 576 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: to start hiking. About twenty to thirty minutes in all 577 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 2: the thoughts are starting to percolate, and then some start 578 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 2: seeming more beautiful than others. They just sort of bubble 579 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: up to the surface, and some of them I grab 580 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: onto and go yes. And when you hike, you're in 581 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 2: an elevated, slightly euphoric state, and so if a good 582 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 2: thought emerges, it really stands out, do you know what 583 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: I mean? Like it's bright and light, and intuitively you go, yes, 584 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: that's the right thing, you know, and then I will 585 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 2: write it down, So you know, lots of creatives throughout 586 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 2: history did the same thing. So Nietzsche he had to 587 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: write all of these books while walking, and he kept 588 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: he had a sort of walking stuff and he had. 589 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 3: A little hole. 590 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 2: In the top for his paper and his little pencil 591 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: that he would keep in there so that he could 592 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: stop and write. And you know, Vincent bang Goff was 593 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 2: the same. There's countless people who had to walk to 594 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 2: get their creative thoughts sorted. But yeah, it's a people 595 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: say to me, Oh, how do you go about it? 596 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 2: I'm like, don't worry about it. It just works. Like 597 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: I promise you, if you go for a minimum hours walk, 598 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 2: whatever problem you've got, creative problem, it will just bubble 599 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 2: to the surface. 600 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 3: Don't worry. 601 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 2: It just does. It does its magic. You don't just 602 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 2: just just walk, just hike, you know. 603 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: Now, Sarah, for people that want to connect with you 604 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: and consume more of the thinking that you are putting 605 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: into the world, what is the best way for people 606 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: to do that? 607 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you for that invite, I read. 608 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: The best place is my substack newsletter, which is Sarah 609 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: Wilson dot substack dot com. That sort of I've got 610 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: a sort of a free emissions that is once a 611 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: week and then once a week I also do something 612 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: for the membership community who and it's a subscriber model. 613 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: There's that, and then of course my podcast Wild with 614 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 2: Sarah Wilson, and then any. 615 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 3: Information on my books. 616 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 2: So this one wild and Precious life and first we 617 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: make the best beautiful would be probably most appropriate, but 618 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: also the eye put Sugar books. 619 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 3: That's on Sarah Wilson dot com or just Google. 620 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: You're very prolific, I must say so easy. 621 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: It's because I'm old. Read them right. 622 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: Your Google footprint is going to be substantial. Well, Sarah, 623 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: it's been such a joy chatting to you. Thank you 624 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: so much for your time. It was wonderful. Thanks for 625 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: leading the conversation. Since recording this interview with Sarah, I 626 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: went on a MIDI break with my partner to the 627 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: Grampians where we went on some mega bushwalks up some 628 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: very big mountains. I was reflecting on that weekend and 629 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: the walking specifically, and I now realize that one of 630 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: the things I really felt was just completely present for 631 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: those walks. A couple of the walks were really difficult, 632 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: and every step required focus and undivided attention. And now 633 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: having been back in Melbourne for a couple of weeks. 634 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: My mind has quickly returned to that feeling of being 635 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: busy and a little bit overloaded. So it's made me 636 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: think about the importance of just finding even a couple 637 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: of hours to get out into nature, just like Sarah does, 638 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: to help reduce that noise that I am feeling in 639 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: my head at the moment. How I Work is produced 640 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: by Inventing with production support from Dead Set Studios. The 641 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you 642 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: to Matt Nimba who does the audio mix for every 643 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: episode and makes everything sound so much better than it 644 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: would have otherwise. 645 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 3: See you next time.