WEBVTT - How scams are targeting you

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<v Speaker 1>Today's podcast is brought to you by pay id. Today

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to get into the rise of scams in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>An important tool that can help combat scams is pay ID.

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<v Speaker 1>When sending money to a pay id, you'll be shown

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<v Speaker 1>the name of the person or business links to it

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<v Speaker 1>before you get sent. That means more peace of mind.

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<v Speaker 1>Your money's going to the right place already.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to

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<v Speaker 3>the Daily OS. It's Sunday, the eighteenth of May. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>Billy fitz Simon.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Sam Becauseloski, We're.

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<v Speaker 3>Back in your ears on a Sunday morning. Couldn't stay

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<v Speaker 3>away for two long Happy Sunday, Sam. This time we

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<v Speaker 3>are here to talk about scams. Now. Scams are on

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<v Speaker 3>the rise in Australia, and not only are they increasing

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<v Speaker 3>in volume, but they are also becoming more sophisticated than

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<v Speaker 3>ever before, particularly in the age of artificial intelligence. So

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<v Speaker 3>what is being done to combat the rise of scams

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<v Speaker 3>and is it working. We'll break it all down for

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<v Speaker 3>you in today's podcast, So.

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<v Speaker 1>Billy, we asked the audience on tda's Instagram what questions

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<v Speaker 1>they wanted us to answer about scams, but before we

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<v Speaker 1>get there, I'm keen to get an understanding from you

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<v Speaker 1>of the broader context.

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<v Speaker 2>Here.

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<v Speaker 1>Are scams actually increasing in Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, they are in terms of how many people are

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<v Speaker 3>falling victim to them. And I don't think that's necessarily

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<v Speaker 3>surprising because I think when you think of the kind

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<v Speaker 3>of person who could fall victim to a scam, I

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<v Speaker 3>think you typically think of like someone of an older

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<v Speaker 3>generation who perhaps isn't as tech savvy. But I think,

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<v Speaker 3>like we're going to talk about their becoming much more sophisticated,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think they're targeting younger people as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And I feel like, because we're so much more connected

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<v Speaker 1>in so many different ways, there's actually just more avenues

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<v Speaker 1>for scams.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, okay, So to give you some data. In

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty four, the ABS reports that about ten percent

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<v Speaker 3>of Australians aged fifteen years and over were victims of

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<v Speaker 3>card fraud. Now that's a little bit different to scams.

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<v Speaker 3>Card fraud is when someone's card is used to make

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<v Speaker 3>a purchase or withdraw cash without the person's permission, and

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<v Speaker 3>that statistic of ten percent is up from about nine

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<v Speaker 3>percent from the year before, so just in one year

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<v Speaker 3>it increased by one percent, which if you think about

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<v Speaker 3>how many people are in Australia, that's a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>people now. In terms of scams, the ABS also found

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<v Speaker 3>that there has been an increase in the number of

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<v Speaker 3>Australians responding to scams. So this is usually when you

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<v Speaker 3>are deceived into providing money or giving personal information or

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<v Speaker 3>something like that to someone with the purpose of them

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<v Speaker 3>stealing from you. In twenty twenty four, three point one

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<v Speaker 3>percent of Australians were victims of this kind of scam,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's up from two point five percent in the

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<v Speaker 3>previous year. But what I do do you want to

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<v Speaker 3>point out is that even though the number of victims

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<v Speaker 3>has increased, the amount being stolen collectively actually hasn't. But

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<v Speaker 3>we can get to that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a really interesting statistic and it's a really interesting

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<v Speaker 1>kind of portrayal of how things were in twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 1>four because I think the other big point to make

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<v Speaker 1>here is that we've talked about scams a lot, more

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<v Speaker 1>so the fact that we're still seeing that increase in

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<v Speaker 1>the number of Australians who are victims to a scam

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<v Speaker 1>go up with so much public information out there kind

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<v Speaker 1>of makes that increase even worse.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you're saying like there's more awareness, definitely, and more

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<v Speaker 3>people are kind of looking out for it, but it

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<v Speaker 3>is still increasing.

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<v Speaker 1>I know it's been a big focus of the federal government,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, it's really trying to make sure that there's

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<v Speaker 1>education around scams. Yeah, so why is there an increase then?

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<v Speaker 3>Basically it's because they are getting more sophisticated now. Even

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<v Speaker 3>at TDA, we have kind of this famous story in

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<v Speaker 3>the office of a time when we nearly fell victim

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<v Speaker 3>to a scam.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell the story scam because lost k comes to the

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<v Speaker 1>forefront here. So and it's still happening. Actually, yes, everybody

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<v Speaker 1>who joins TDA, and we think, we're not sure, but

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<v Speaker 1>we think it's them updating their LinkedIn profile to say

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<v Speaker 1>that they have started a new job at TDA, every

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<v Speaker 1>new starter gets an email from me, and the email says,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome to the company, can you do a discrete task

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<v Speaker 1>for me? A very interesting use of the phrase there,

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<v Speaker 1>And I guess they're kind of trying to capitalize on

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<v Speaker 1>people who might feel a bit nervous with a new

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<v Speaker 1>boss for the first time. New workplace, not really sure

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<v Speaker 1>how things work, and the ask from me is for

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<v Speaker 1>them to go to their near a supermarket and buy

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<v Speaker 1>a bunch of gift cards that they are then required

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<v Speaker 1>to take photos of and send back to me.

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<v Speaker 3>But just to clarify, it's not actually you sending the email.

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<v Speaker 1>It's my alter ego scam. No, it is not me

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<v Speaker 1>at all. And now we actually get in the front

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<v Speaker 1>fward and actually tell new starters about this happening, because

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<v Speaker 1>it's just it's every time.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's because we are now so on top of it,

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<v Speaker 3>because we did have one employee actually go down the

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<v Speaker 3>path of nearly buying that cass She.

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<v Speaker 1>Was on her way to market to purchase gift cards

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<v Speaker 1>that she was going to send photos of to this

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<v Speaker 1>account that said it was me, and she was at

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<v Speaker 1>the point of actually asking me if it was okay

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<v Speaker 1>if she did that after her first pay run, like

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<v Speaker 1>it was really concerning it. Luckily, I really messaged her

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<v Speaker 1>that day to say, so glad to have you on board,

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<v Speaker 1>and she said, great to be here. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>is it okay if we wait until after the pay run?

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<v Speaker 1>And I said, okay, we need to take a second year,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's quite a if you think about it's quite

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<v Speaker 1>a sophisticated scam.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I think that does tell us how these

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<v Speaker 3>scams are becoming more sophisticated, partly because just like that one,

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<v Speaker 3>they're becoming more personalized and they're becoming more targeted definitely,

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<v Speaker 3>so it's really tailored to kind of the specific person

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<v Speaker 3>that they are sending the message to.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 3>As still why they are becoming more sophisticated, it's actually

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<v Speaker 3>partly to do with artificial intelligence or AI. SAM one

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<v Speaker 3>of your great loves is AI. But this is definitely

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<v Speaker 3>one of the downside to how AI is developing and

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<v Speaker 3>how it's being misused. Now, there are two main ways

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<v Speaker 3>that AI is really changing the scam landscape. One is

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<v Speaker 3>sophistication and the other is volume. So it's making scams

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<v Speaker 3>more advanced, more realistic, and harder to detect, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>allowing offenders to reach more people than ever before. To

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<v Speaker 3>give you an example of the sophistication side, PwC in

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<v Speaker 3>the UK did a report about how AI is being

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<v Speaker 3>used by scammers to do things like create voice clones,

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<v Speaker 3>so something like a voice message being used, and there

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<v Speaker 3>were even examples of real time conversations happening, kind of

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<v Speaker 3>like what happened with TDA, where the scammer and the

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<v Speaker 3>employee were in this real time conversation and she just

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<v Speaker 3>had no idea that it wasn't you because there were

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<v Speaker 3>instant replies happening.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's crazy to think that there could be a world,

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<v Speaker 1>or there is a world now where my voice could

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<v Speaker 1>be used as a voice clone to call that person

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<v Speaker 1>and then all of a sudden, it sounds like me

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<v Speaker 1>given instructions.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's exactly what this report found was happening. That

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<v Speaker 3>employees were getting voice notes from their CEO, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>not just one voice note, it's an ongoing conversation that

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<v Speaker 3>appears to be very realistic. Another possibility is creating deep

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<v Speaker 3>fake videos of celebrities to promote investment scams. So there

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<v Speaker 3>are all of these different ways where AI is really

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<v Speaker 3>infiltrating the scam landscape to make them appear so much

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<v Speaker 3>more realistic than they ever could before.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's clear that there's a lot of progress in

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<v Speaker 1>the spam world, and not all of it is easy

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<v Speaker 1>to tackle right here, right now. So I want to

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<v Speaker 1>turn to some of the questions that were asked by

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<v Speaker 1>the audience, And the first question is how do scammers

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<v Speaker 1>actually get my number and why are they allowed to

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<v Speaker 1>have it in the first place.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's no one way that they can obtain your number.

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<v Speaker 3>There's lots of different ways. One is through data breaches,

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<v Speaker 3>So I feel like last year we heard a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of examples of different data breaches happening at major companies.

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<v Speaker 3>So if a company that stores your information experiences a

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<v Speaker 3>security breach that could expose your number, that's one way.

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<v Speaker 3>There are also data broker websites, which are companies that

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<v Speaker 3>literally just gather and sell personal information. Now you might

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<v Speaker 3>be wondering if that's legal. The answer is actually yes

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<v Speaker 3>if they're using public records to obtain the information, but

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<v Speaker 3>it is illegal if they are obtaining your private information

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<v Speaker 3>without your consent. And also even something like if your

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<v Speaker 3>social media accounts have your number attached to them, that's

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<v Speaker 3>another way that they could potentially obtain your information. And

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<v Speaker 3>then of course there's also the dark web, where illegal

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<v Speaker 3>data sharing is very common.

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<v Speaker 1>We had a lot of people message saying that they

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<v Speaker 1>had placed them so on the do not Call register.

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<v Speaker 1>I've put myself on that, have you, Yeah, but I

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<v Speaker 1>still get spam calls sometimes I'm getting them daily. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>why is that?

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<v Speaker 3>So that's because they do not call. Register isn't actually

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<v Speaker 3>designed to stop scam calls. It actually has nothing to

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<v Speaker 3>do with scams. So they do not call Register, which

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<v Speaker 3>is a government initiative, is to stop you from receiving

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<v Speaker 3>calls from telemarketers. So it's a marketing thing, and that's

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<v Speaker 3>different obviously from scams. So telemarketing is legal, although there

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<v Speaker 3>are rules and regulations about when and how they can

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<v Speaker 3>call you.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's an example, I guess of the government trying

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<v Speaker 1>to step into the process and trying to facilitate unwelcome approaches,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's from telemarketers or scammers or whoever. It's from

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<v Speaker 1>being reduced. What else can the government be doing? Can

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<v Speaker 1>they actually stop scams?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's an interesting question. They're definitely trying. So their

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<v Speaker 3>main policy here is called the National Anti Scam Center.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you familiar with it, Sam.

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<v Speaker 1>No, But it's got a I always try and work

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<v Speaker 1>out the acronyms.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, yeah, NASK doesn't quite but now the aim of NASK,

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<v Speaker 3>actually that's not going to it doesn't roll off the tongue.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just going to say the National Anti Scam Center.

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<v Speaker 3>It doesn't have a nickname, that's fine, But the aim

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<v Speaker 3>is to improve data and information sharing between the government,

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<v Speaker 3>law enforcement, and the private sector to create a more

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<v Speaker 3>coordinated effort to combat scams. So, to give you a

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<v Speaker 3>really basic example, if a telco like Vodaphone discovers a

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<v Speaker 3>phone number is being used for scams, then they would

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<v Speaker 3>be legally obligated to share that information with other telcos

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<v Speaker 3>as well as the government, so that they can all

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<v Speaker 3>actively block that number and stop it from contacting other

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<v Speaker 3>potential victim. Interesting, So under this framework, private companies are

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<v Speaker 3>legally required to share the info they have about scams.

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<v Speaker 3>And this is quite a new thing. It only came

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<v Speaker 3>about in twenty twenty three, in July twenty two, so

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<v Speaker 3>it hasn't even been around for two years.

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<v Speaker 1>So it makes a lot of sense to me that

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<v Speaker 1>you would kind of work as a telco to understand, Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>that number is called three hundred and fifty people in

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<v Speaker 1>an hour, so that there must be something fishy going

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<v Speaker 1>on there. Is that program actually working and do we

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<v Speaker 1>have any evidence on whether it's making the impact it

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<v Speaker 1>was designed to have?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it actually is working. And this goes to what

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<v Speaker 3>I was saying before, where the volume of scams is increasing,

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<v Speaker 3>but the amount being lost by Australians actually isn't so.

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<v Speaker 3>The latest report from the National Anti Scam Center found

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<v Speaker 3>that Australians lost about two billion dollars to scams in

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty four, which is absolutely a lot, but if

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<v Speaker 3>you compare it to twenty twenty three, that's a twenty

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<v Speaker 3>five percent decrease, which is quite substantial. In just prere

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<v Speaker 3>to give you a bit more context, the amount of

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<v Speaker 3>Australians were losing to scams peaked at about three billion

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<v Speaker 3>dollars in twenty twenty two, but since then and since

0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.600
<v Speaker 3>this law came into effect, the amount being lost has

0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.480
<v Speaker 3>decreased in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four.

0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.600
<v Speaker 1>There's also a really interesting story in all of that

0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.240
<v Speaker 1>data around the impact of the pandemic and having people

0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.880
<v Speaker 1>at home more, spending more time online, spending more time

0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.760
<v Speaker 1>near kind of phones and laptops that they think that

0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.319
<v Speaker 1>there's a bit of a connection between that three billion

0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:19.840
<v Speaker 1>dollar peak in twenty twenty two.

0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.280
<v Speaker 3>And wow COVID, Yeah that makes sense.

0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so what's the advice now to protect yourself

0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.040
<v Speaker 1>from scams? We know that there's that do not call register.

0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.880
<v Speaker 1>We know that there's kind of government programs that are

0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:34.560
<v Speaker 1>out there to try and reduce that. We know that

0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:36.520
<v Speaker 1>the government is thinking about it, but what can we

0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:37.040
<v Speaker 1>be doing?

0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.000
<v Speaker 3>So the government actually announce a new campaign to raise

0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:44.439
<v Speaker 3>awareness about how to protect yourself against scams earlier this year. Now,

0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.959
<v Speaker 3>the key recommendations are to stop. That's the first kind

0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.880
<v Speaker 3>of recommendation to before you share any personal information, to

0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.240
<v Speaker 3>just stop and think about what you're doing and if

0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.640
<v Speaker 3>you really trust the person or the company that you

0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.560
<v Speaker 3>are providing this information to. The next is to check

0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:03.680
<v Speaker 3>which kind of goes to the same thing that you

0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.400
<v Speaker 3>want to know who you're dealing with and who you're

0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.600
<v Speaker 3>giving your card to or who you're giving your personal

0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.560
<v Speaker 3>information to sure And then the last one is to

0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:17.079
<v Speaker 3>protect yourself against scams by always taking actions like reporting

0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.040
<v Speaker 3>them if you do see them, to scam watch dot

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.960
<v Speaker 3>gov dot au. If you have seen a scam or

0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.240
<v Speaker 3>you've received a message that you think looks like a scam,

0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.800
<v Speaker 3>you can then go to that website and report them.

0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.480
<v Speaker 1>And sometimes the kind of first step that a lot

0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.280
<v Speaker 1>of people instinctively take is by talking to their bank

0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.199
<v Speaker 1>or their financial provider, and that's always a good step,

0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.400
<v Speaker 1>and never be afraid to ask those institutions. Definitely what

0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:42.160
<v Speaker 1>you should be doing as well. But I think that

0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.920
<v Speaker 1>whole idea of nobody should be putting you under pressure

0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:49.000
<v Speaker 1>to immediately provide them with your financial information. That's a

0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.199
<v Speaker 1>good rule of thumb to stop, check and protect.

0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.280
<v Speaker 3>No one should be putting you under pressure to complete

0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:54.120
<v Speaker 3>a discrete task.

0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.560
<v Speaker 1>Their tasks should not be described stop. Billy, thank you

0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.080
<v Speaker 1>so much for taking us through through that. Really appreciate it.

0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 1>It's a really important issue. Especially there was one thing

0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:05.280
<v Speaker 1>you mentioned right at the beginning I just want to

0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.880
<v Speaker 1>end on, which is that scams are in twenty twenty five,

0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.320
<v Speaker 1>not just about older members of the population, No, and

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.080
<v Speaker 1>we really need to normalize the conversations at all age

0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.679
<v Speaker 1>groups to make sure that we all keep each other safe. Billy,

0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 1>thanks so much, thank you, and that's all we've got

0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.440
<v Speaker 1>for you on today's episode of The Daily OS. But

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:24.920
<v Speaker 1>we're going to be back again tomorrow morning with the

0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 1>Deep Dive. Until then, have a lovely end to your

0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 1>weekend and we'll hit you up again tomorrow with the.

0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Week My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud

0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Arunda Bunjelung Kalgutin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily os

0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.120
<v Speaker 2>acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of

0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.480
<v Speaker 2>the Gatighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and

0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to

0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.520
<v Speaker 2>the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.760
<v Speaker 1>So we've looked into how the landscape of scams is

0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.280
<v Speaker 1>chang along with the role of AI and as we

0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.920
<v Speaker 1>now know, scammers are getting crafty, especially in online marketplaces.

0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.760
<v Speaker 1>But there are still safe ways to send money when

0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:13.160
<v Speaker 1>you're buying something online, and one of those ways is PAYID.

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Instead of needing somebody's BSB and account number, you just

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.640
<v Speaker 1>use their mobile number or email that's linked to their

0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.320
<v Speaker 1>bank account, and before you send money, you'll be shown

0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the name linked to the PAYID, so you can double

0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 1>check it's going to the right person. You should also

0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.560
<v Speaker 1>remember that PAYID will never text, email or message you directly.

0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.000
<v Speaker 1>They're not going to tell you to upgrade your accounts

0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.440
<v Speaker 1>or send money to receive money. If you get a

0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.040
<v Speaker 1>message like that, you've got to steer clear. That is

0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.960
<v Speaker 1>a scam. Now, if you do happen to fall for

0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.680
<v Speaker 1>a scam. The first step is contacting your bank as

0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.440
<v Speaker 1>soon as possible, and it's always worth flagging it with

0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.240
<v Speaker 1>friends or family so they don't fall for the same thing.

0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 1>The more people know, the harder it's going to be

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:55.280
<v Speaker 1>for these scammers to win.