Speaker 1: Today's podcast is brought to you by pay id. Today
Speaker 1: we're going to get into the rise of scams in Australia.
Speaker 1: An important tool that can help combat scams is pay ID.
Speaker 1: When sending money to a pay id, you'll be shown
Speaker 1: the name of the person or business links to it
Speaker 1: before you get sent. That means more peace of mind.
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Speaker 2: And this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.
Speaker 3: Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to
Speaker 3: the Daily OS. It's Sunday, the eighteenth of May. I'm
Speaker 3: Billy fitz Simon.
Speaker 1: I'm Sam Becauseloski, We're.
Speaker 3: Back in your ears on a Sunday morning. Couldn't stay
Speaker 3: away for two long Happy Sunday, Sam. This time we
Speaker 3: are here to talk about scams. Now. Scams are on
Speaker 3: the rise in Australia, and not only are they increasing
Speaker 3: in volume, but they are also becoming more sophisticated than
Speaker 3: ever before, particularly in the age of artificial intelligence. So
Speaker 3: what is being done to combat the rise of scams
Speaker 3: and is it working. We'll break it all down for
Speaker 3: you in today's podcast, So.
Speaker 1: Billy, we asked the audience on tda's Instagram what questions
Speaker 1: they wanted us to answer about scams, but before we
Speaker 1: get there, I'm keen to get an understanding from you
Speaker 1: of the broader context.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 1: Are scams actually increasing in Australia.
Speaker 3: Yes, they are in terms of how many people are
Speaker 3: falling victim to them. And I don't think that's necessarily
Speaker 3: surprising because I think when you think of the kind
Speaker 3: of person who could fall victim to a scam, I
Speaker 3: think you typically think of like someone of an older
Speaker 3: generation who perhaps isn't as tech savvy. But I think,
Speaker 3: like we're going to talk about their becoming much more sophisticated,
Speaker 3: and I think they're targeting younger people as well.
Speaker 1: And I feel like, because we're so much more connected
Speaker 1: in so many different ways, there's actually just more avenues
Speaker 1: for scams.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, okay, So to give you some data. In
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, the ABS reports that about ten percent
Speaker 3: of Australians aged fifteen years and over were victims of
Speaker 3: card fraud. Now that's a little bit different to scams.
Speaker 3: Card fraud is when someone's card is used to make
Speaker 3: a purchase or withdraw cash without the person's permission, and
Speaker 3: that statistic of ten percent is up from about nine
Speaker 3: percent from the year before, so just in one year
Speaker 3: it increased by one percent, which if you think about
Speaker 3: how many people are in Australia, that's a lot of
Speaker 3: people now. In terms of scams, the ABS also found
Speaker 3: that there has been an increase in the number of
Speaker 3: Australians responding to scams. So this is usually when you
Speaker 3: are deceived into providing money or giving personal information or
Speaker 3: something like that to someone with the purpose of them
Speaker 3: stealing from you. In twenty twenty four, three point one
Speaker 3: percent of Australians were victims of this kind of scam,
Speaker 3: and that's up from two point five percent in the
Speaker 3: previous year. But what I do do you want to
Speaker 3: point out is that even though the number of victims
Speaker 3: has increased, the amount being stolen collectively actually hasn't. But
Speaker 3: we can get to that.
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting statistic and it's a really interesting
Speaker 1: kind of portrayal of how things were in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four because I think the other big point to make
Speaker 1: here is that we've talked about scams a lot, more
Speaker 1: so the fact that we're still seeing that increase in
Speaker 1: the number of Australians who are victims to a scam
Speaker 1: go up with so much public information out there kind
Speaker 1: of makes that increase even worse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're saying like there's more awareness, definitely, and more
Speaker 3: people are kind of looking out for it, but it
Speaker 3: is still increasing.
Speaker 1: I know it's been a big focus of the federal government,
Speaker 1: for example, it's really trying to make sure that there's
Speaker 1: education around scams. Yeah, so why is there an increase then?
Speaker 3: Basically it's because they are getting more sophisticated now. Even
Speaker 3: at TDA, we have kind of this famous story in
Speaker 3: the office of a time when we nearly fell victim
Speaker 3: to a scam.
Speaker 1: Tell the story scam because lost k comes to the
Speaker 1: forefront here. So and it's still happening. Actually, yes, everybody
Speaker 1: who joins TDA, and we think, we're not sure, but
Speaker 1: we think it's them updating their LinkedIn profile to say
Speaker 1: that they have started a new job at TDA, every
Speaker 1: new starter gets an email from me, and the email says,
Speaker 1: welcome to the company, can you do a discrete task
Speaker 1: for me? A very interesting use of the phrase there,
Speaker 1: And I guess they're kind of trying to capitalize on
Speaker 1: people who might feel a bit nervous with a new
Speaker 1: boss for the first time. New workplace, not really sure
Speaker 1: how things work, and the ask from me is for
Speaker 1: them to go to their near a supermarket and buy
Speaker 1: a bunch of gift cards that they are then required
Speaker 1: to take photos of and send back to me.
Speaker 3: But just to clarify, it's not actually you sending the email.
Speaker 1: It's my alter ego scam. No, it is not me
Speaker 1: at all. And now we actually get in the front
Speaker 1: fward and actually tell new starters about this happening, because
Speaker 1: it's just it's every time.
Speaker 3: And it's because we are now so on top of it,
Speaker 3: because we did have one employee actually go down the
Speaker 3: path of nearly buying that cass She.
Speaker 1: Was on her way to market to purchase gift cards
Speaker 1: that she was going to send photos of to this
Speaker 1: account that said it was me, and she was at
Speaker 1: the point of actually asking me if it was okay
Speaker 1: if she did that after her first pay run, like
Speaker 1: it was really concerning it. Luckily, I really messaged her
Speaker 1: that day to say, so glad to have you on board,
Speaker 1: and she said, great to be here. By the way,
Speaker 1: is it okay if we wait until after the pay run?
Speaker 1: And I said, okay, we need to take a second year,
Speaker 1: but it's quite a if you think about it's quite
Speaker 1: a sophisticated scam.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that does tell us how these
Speaker 3: scams are becoming more sophisticated, partly because just like that one,
Speaker 3: they're becoming more personalized and they're becoming more targeted definitely,
Speaker 3: so it's really tailored to kind of the specific person
Speaker 3: that they are sending the message to.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: As still why they are becoming more sophisticated, it's actually
Speaker 3: partly to do with artificial intelligence or AI. SAM one
Speaker 3: of your great loves is AI. But this is definitely
Speaker 3: one of the downside to how AI is developing and
Speaker 3: how it's being misused. Now, there are two main ways
Speaker 3: that AI is really changing the scam landscape. One is
Speaker 3: sophistication and the other is volume. So it's making scams
Speaker 3: more advanced, more realistic, and harder to detect, and it's
Speaker 3: allowing offenders to reach more people than ever before. To
Speaker 3: give you an example of the sophistication side, PwC in
Speaker 3: the UK did a report about how AI is being
Speaker 3: used by scammers to do things like create voice clones,
Speaker 3: so something like a voice message being used, and there
Speaker 3: were even examples of real time conversations happening, kind of
Speaker 3: like what happened with TDA, where the scammer and the
Speaker 3: employee were in this real time conversation and she just
Speaker 3: had no idea that it wasn't you because there were
Speaker 3: instant replies happening.
Speaker 1: But it's crazy to think that there could be a world,
Speaker 1: or there is a world now where my voice could
Speaker 1: be used as a voice clone to call that person
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, it sounds like me
Speaker 1: given instructions.
Speaker 3: And that's exactly what this report found was happening. That
Speaker 3: employees were getting voice notes from their CEO, and it's
Speaker 3: not just one voice note, it's an ongoing conversation that
Speaker 3: appears to be very realistic. Another possibility is creating deep
Speaker 3: fake videos of celebrities to promote investment scams. So there
Speaker 3: are all of these different ways where AI is really
Speaker 3: infiltrating the scam landscape to make them appear so much
Speaker 3: more realistic than they ever could before.
Speaker 1: So it's clear that there's a lot of progress in
Speaker 1: the spam world, and not all of it is easy
Speaker 1: to tackle right here, right now. So I want to
Speaker 1: turn to some of the questions that were asked by
Speaker 1: the audience, And the first question is how do scammers
Speaker 1: actually get my number and why are they allowed to
Speaker 1: have it in the first place.
Speaker 3: So there's no one way that they can obtain your number.
Speaker 3: There's lots of different ways. One is through data breaches,
Speaker 3: So I feel like last year we heard a lot
Speaker 3: of examples of different data breaches happening at major companies.
Speaker 3: So if a company that stores your information experiences a
Speaker 3: security breach that could expose your number, that's one way.
Speaker 3: There are also data broker websites, which are companies that
Speaker 3: literally just gather and sell personal information. Now you might
Speaker 3: be wondering if that's legal. The answer is actually yes
Speaker 3: if they're using public records to obtain the information, but
Speaker 3: it is illegal if they are obtaining your private information
Speaker 3: without your consent. And also even something like if your
Speaker 3: social media accounts have your number attached to them, that's
Speaker 3: another way that they could potentially obtain your information. And
Speaker 3: then of course there's also the dark web, where illegal
Speaker 3: data sharing is very common.
Speaker 1: We had a lot of people message saying that they
Speaker 1: had placed them so on the do not Call register.
Speaker 1: I've put myself on that, have you, Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: still get spam calls sometimes I'm getting them daily. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why is that?
Speaker 3: So that's because they do not call. Register isn't actually
Speaker 3: designed to stop scam calls. It actually has nothing to
Speaker 3: do with scams. So they do not call Register, which
Speaker 3: is a government initiative, is to stop you from receiving
Speaker 3: calls from telemarketers. So it's a marketing thing, and that's
Speaker 3: different obviously from scams. So telemarketing is legal, although there
Speaker 3: are rules and regulations about when and how they can
Speaker 3: call you.
Speaker 1: And that's an example, I guess of the government trying
Speaker 1: to step into the process and trying to facilitate unwelcome approaches,
Speaker 1: whether it's from telemarketers or scammers or whoever. It's from
Speaker 1: being reduced. What else can the government be doing? Can
Speaker 1: they actually stop scams?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting question. They're definitely trying. So their
Speaker 3: main policy here is called the National Anti Scam Center.
Speaker 3: Are you familiar with it, Sam.
Speaker 1: No, But it's got a I always try and work
Speaker 1: out the acronyms.
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, NASK doesn't quite but now the aim of NASK,
Speaker 3: actually that's not going to it doesn't roll off the tongue.
Speaker 3: I'm just going to say the National Anti Scam Center.
Speaker 3: It doesn't have a nickname, that's fine, But the aim
Speaker 3: is to improve data and information sharing between the government,
Speaker 3: law enforcement, and the private sector to create a more
Speaker 3: coordinated effort to combat scams. So, to give you a
Speaker 3: really basic example, if a telco like Vodaphone discovers a
Speaker 3: phone number is being used for scams, then they would
Speaker 3: be legally obligated to share that information with other telcos
Speaker 3: as well as the government, so that they can all
Speaker 3: actively block that number and stop it from contacting other
Speaker 3: potential victim. Interesting, So under this framework, private companies are
Speaker 3: legally required to share the info they have about scams.
Speaker 3: And this is quite a new thing. It only came
Speaker 3: about in twenty twenty three, in July twenty two, so
Speaker 3: it hasn't even been around for two years.
Speaker 1: So it makes a lot of sense to me that
Speaker 1: you would kind of work as a telco to understand, Hey,
Speaker 1: that number is called three hundred and fifty people in
Speaker 1: an hour, so that there must be something fishy going
Speaker 1: on there. Is that program actually working and do we
Speaker 1: have any evidence on whether it's making the impact it
Speaker 1: was designed to have?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it actually is working. And this goes to what
Speaker 3: I was saying before, where the volume of scams is increasing,
Speaker 3: but the amount being lost by Australians actually isn't so.
Speaker 3: The latest report from the National Anti Scam Center found
Speaker 3: that Australians lost about two billion dollars to scams in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, which is absolutely a lot, but if
Speaker 3: you compare it to twenty twenty three, that's a twenty
Speaker 3: five percent decrease, which is quite substantial. In just prere
Speaker 3: to give you a bit more context, the amount of
Speaker 3: Australians were losing to scams peaked at about three billion
Speaker 3: dollars in twenty twenty two, but since then and since
Speaker 3: this law came into effect, the amount being lost has
Speaker 3: decreased in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: There's also a really interesting story in all of that
Speaker 1: data around the impact of the pandemic and having people
Speaker 1: at home more, spending more time online, spending more time
Speaker 1: near kind of phones and laptops that they think that
Speaker 1: there's a bit of a connection between that three billion
Speaker 1: dollar peak in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: And wow COVID, Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so what's the advice now to protect yourself
Speaker 1: from scams? We know that there's that do not call register.
Speaker 1: We know that there's kind of government programs that are
Speaker 1: out there to try and reduce that. We know that
Speaker 1: the government is thinking about it, but what can we
Speaker 1: be doing?
Speaker 3: So the government actually announce a new campaign to raise
Speaker 3: awareness about how to protect yourself against scams earlier this year. Now,
Speaker 3: the key recommendations are to stop. That's the first kind
Speaker 3: of recommendation to before you share any personal information, to
Speaker 3: just stop and think about what you're doing and if
Speaker 3: you really trust the person or the company that you
Speaker 3: are providing this information to. The next is to check
Speaker 3: which kind of goes to the same thing that you
Speaker 3: want to know who you're dealing with and who you're
Speaker 3: giving your card to or who you're giving your personal
Speaker 3: information to sure And then the last one is to
Speaker 3: protect yourself against scams by always taking actions like reporting
Speaker 3: them if you do see them, to scam watch dot
Speaker 3: gov dot au. If you have seen a scam or
Speaker 3: you've received a message that you think looks like a scam,
Speaker 3: you can then go to that website and report them.
Speaker 1: And sometimes the kind of first step that a lot
Speaker 1: of people instinctively take is by talking to their bank
Speaker 1: or their financial provider, and that's always a good step,
Speaker 1: and never be afraid to ask those institutions. Definitely what
Speaker 1: you should be doing as well. But I think that
Speaker 1: whole idea of nobody should be putting you under pressure
Speaker 1: to immediately provide them with your financial information. That's a
Speaker 1: good rule of thumb to stop, check and protect.
Speaker 3: No one should be putting you under pressure to complete
Speaker 3: a discrete task.
Speaker 1: Their tasks should not be described stop. Billy, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for taking us through through that. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: It's a really important issue. Especially there was one thing
Speaker 1: you mentioned right at the beginning I just want to
Speaker 1: end on, which is that scams are in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 1: not just about older members of the population, No, and
Speaker 1: we really need to normalize the conversations at all age
Speaker 1: groups to make sure that we all keep each other safe. Billy,
Speaker 1: thanks so much, thank you, and that's all we've got
Speaker 1: for you on today's episode of The Daily OS. But
Speaker 1: we're going to be back again tomorrow morning with the
Speaker 1: Deep Dive. Until then, have a lovely end to your
Speaker 1: weekend and we'll hit you up again tomorrow with the.
Speaker 2: Week My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud
Speaker 2: Arunda Bunjelung Kalgutin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily os
Speaker 2: acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of
Speaker 2: the Gatighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and
Speaker 2: Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to
Speaker 2: the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
Speaker 1: So we've looked into how the landscape of scams is
Speaker 1: chang along with the role of AI and as we
Speaker 1: now know, scammers are getting crafty, especially in online marketplaces.
Speaker 1: But there are still safe ways to send money when
Speaker 1: you're buying something online, and one of those ways is PAYID.
Speaker 1: Instead of needing somebody's BSB and account number, you just
Speaker 1: use their mobile number or email that's linked to their
Speaker 1: bank account, and before you send money, you'll be shown
Speaker 1: the name linked to the PAYID, so you can double
Speaker 1: check it's going to the right person. You should also
Speaker 1: remember that PAYID will never text, email or message you directly.
Speaker 1: They're not going to tell you to upgrade your accounts
Speaker 1: or send money to receive money. If you get a
Speaker 1: message like that, you've got to steer clear. That is
Speaker 1: a scam. Now, if you do happen to fall for
Speaker 1: a scam. The first step is contacting your bank as
Speaker 1: soon as possible, and it's always worth flagging it with
Speaker 1: friends or family so they don't fall for the same thing.
Speaker 1: The more people know, the harder it's going to be
Speaker 1: for these scammers to win.