WEBVTT - Joe Cinque 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.399 In October nineteen ninety seven, a law student in Canberra, Australia, 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:09.280 made a plan to murder her devoted boyfriend after a 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:13.240 dinner party. But it wasn't a secret. The dinner guests 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:17.040 had all heard rumors about the plan and went along 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:22.680 with morbid curiosity. But in what could be described as 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:27.040 the ultimate bystander effect, nobody warned the young man. 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.520 Surely they thought it was a Joe. 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:36.080 Surely everybody knew but him. This is the devastating case 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.240 of Joe chinque Oh. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.320 I know of this one, but I didn't know even already. 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.159 All those Ah, well, you are going to need to 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:49.559 strap yourself in kind of like oars sounded a bit 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:54.320 like exactly. This case has affected me in more ways 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.040 than I could have imagined. I picked up the book 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:01.400 by Helen Ghana, Joe Chinkway's Consolation, after going to buy 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.319 Helen Ghana's latest book on the mushroom cook Aaron Patterson, 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.520 our favorite. This story is devastating and it's honestly a 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.080 case that I cannot stop thinking about. I read the 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.679 book quickly, I listened to anything I could, and I 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.600 feel like my mind was pretty made up about how 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:23.240 I felt about what happened. I'd love to hear your opinion, gee, 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:25.640 and I'd also love to hear what listeners think. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:27.400 Nita tells the story first. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.399 Okay, okay, you know you're right, You are right, Thank you. 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.000 I usually have Okay. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.560 Joe was murdered. What I didn't expect to learn was 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.520 how many complex feelings I had about the killer and 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:40.679 the friend who helped her. 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:41.480 Oh okay. 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.400 In fact, it resonated with me on a personal level, 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.120 with my own brother developing drug psychosis and completely changing 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.680 as a brother I once loved and grew up with. 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:55.120 I cannot recommend the book highly enough. As always, I 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.880 commit my undying love for Helen Ghana and how she 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.920 can find the human in people who were often deemed monsters. 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.040 It's interesting to say that, because I mean, just that 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.079 sentence itself, a lot of people would say, well, no, 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.040 there's no human in here. Yeah. Yeah, roughly she writes, 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.720 and how I suppose in depth she goes into her story. 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.640 Yeah, and she looks at things in a really different way. Yeah. 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.080 This is a story of a man's life who was 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.760 taken too soon, far too soon, and a complex look 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.079 into the lives and why from what we can glean 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:31.359 the pair did it and why no one did anything 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:32.000 to stop it? 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:33.960 My God, tell me what happened? 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:35.560 Well, g do you know a lot about this case already? 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.680 Obviously I know that a girlfriend. I think it was 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:40.919 like a murder, like a suicide. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.280 Yes, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, backed out. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:44.880 That's about all I remember. 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.280 Okay, Well we'll go into it, and I really want 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.320 to hear your thoughts on it, yeah, because it's really 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.919 fascinating and there's a lot. There's a lot in here. 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.040 Joe Chinkwa was a twenty six year old engineer living 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.640 with his girlfriend, a new sing in their Harra's house 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:01.399 in Canberra. 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.280 Yeah, I remember, I remember a news name. 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.200 Yeah. Yeah, there's an interesting part of this, but I 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.400 think it's kind of glossed over when I read the 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:13.240 transcript script of the call to the ambulance. I'd like 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.440 you to keep in mind what kind of house they 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.760 lived in. Joe was working full time and Anew was 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.800 finishing her final year of law. Joe was killed. 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:24.880 That's ironic, I know. 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.320 Yeah, Well, all the people that were at the dinner 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.519 party were actually lawyers. Go back to be Joe was 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.280 killed by a lethal injection of heroin while he was 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:38.200 unconscious from rohypnol which she had drugged him with in 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.120 his coffee. Oh my god, I'm going to refer to 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.480 the book for a transcript of the call to the ambulance. 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:48.160 This is what Helen Ghana writes as the opening to 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:49.320 that transcript. 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.720 He isn't even getting out his physical book, like I 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:55.040 put a little post it notes, My god, you're so cute, 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.680 just like my father. Why is there an apple on 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:58.080 the cover. 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:03.600 We'll get into it, into it well you hey, apple, ale? Okay, 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:07.880 very good apple. The house he died in on Sunday 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:11.240 twenty sixth of October nineteen ninety seven was not far 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:16.400 from the Canberra Ambulance headquarters. Oh the paramedics would have 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.120 been able to reach him in a flash, but it 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.800 took the dispatcher almost twenty minutes to get to the 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.280 right address from the hysterical young woman who placed the 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.200 zero zero zero call, the triple zero call. Like all 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:34.960 emergency calls, this one was recorded. This is the male dispatcher. Okay, 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.280 and the phone number you're ringing from. Could I get 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:41.760 an ambulance please? I have a person potentially overdosed on heroin. 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:47.239 Potentially overdosed. Well, he's not. He's vomiting everywhere. Blood stuff. 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.039 He's vomiting blood, right, Okay? What's the address? Is that 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.200 a bad sign? What's the address? Can you hang on? 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:58.240 Please just tell me? Is that a bad sign? That's well, 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.120 it's not good if he's vomiting blood. Oh is he 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.120 going to be? Okay? I don't know. I'll send an 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:08.239 ambulance for them to check him out. Fair enough. What's 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:14.640 the address? Thirty Antil Street? Is that a flat or 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:20.280 a house? Oh? It's a flat? What number is Antil Street? 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.839 What number in Antel Street? What's going to happen? What's 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.440 the flat number? Oh? Shit, shit, listen to me, says 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.800 a paramedic again. Oh hang on, what am I going 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:37.800 to do? Settle down? Settle down? Okay? What am I 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.960 going to do? Well? If you tell me the address, 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.880 I'll get an ambulance out to you. Will he be? Okay? 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:46.240 Oh this is so frustrating. 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.919 I don't know. We'll have to get an ambulance to 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.479 you to assess him. What is the number of the 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:57.159 flat in Antel is is? Oh shit? What is the 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:02.920 number of the flat in Antil Street? It's seventy nine, 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:08.120 Flat thirty seventy nine. Is that correct? Yeah? No, hang 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:14.000 on Flat thirty hang on? Where's the ambulance. The ambulance 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.080 is at Dixon. Now just calm down. What's your name? 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.919 What's your name? Oh shit, he's vomiting blood? What and 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.200 the dispatcher again says what's your name? And who says 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:31.479 is he going to die? What is your name? Tell me? 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.919 Tell me? Please? Cries an. What is your name? Oh? 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:43.599 Oh god, Olivia says an. Oh, what is your name? Please? Olivia? Olivia? 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.960 Oh fuck? Hang on? Hang on? What's the number you're 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:53.600 ringing from? Hang on? His heart's still beating. Good, right, Okay, 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.080 just settle down, for God's sake, says a Dispatcher'd be 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.520 pretty uncommon, you'd think, for a dispatcher to say that, 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:02.760 Flat thirty seventy nine Antil Street. 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:04.039 Okay, we've got there. 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:09.080 Flat thirty seventy nine, No, seventy nine Antil Street. What's 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:14.240 the flat number? It's a townhouse? What it's seventy nine 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:18.560 in Antil Street? Yeah, yeah, get here quickly. All right, 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.000 we've got someone there now. Now that was not the 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.600 only call that was made that night, but it's a 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.240 really interesting call. Because a new calls herself Olivia in 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.720 that call nine of times, a number of times. And 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.080 as we heard before, they lived in a townhouse. 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.400 And it was her address. 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:38.240 She lived there, she lived there, Yeah, yeah, which could 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.400 be you know, she was like the cover up what happened. 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.760 Yeah, exactly, because the way that reads is as if 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:44.240 she didn't really know if she was there for a 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:46.480 dinner party, she didn't really know the address, so she 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.960 was trying to find out what it was. And I mean, god, 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.080 touch would I don't know what it's like to be 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.880 in that situation where you're panicking and calling an ambulance. 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.840 But I mean it's very easy to say from this 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:00.520 point of view, but you would think you could just 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.000 spit out the address if you knew it. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:03.480 You think you'd be able to Yeah, it was your 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:07.400 own home. On June eleventh, nineteen seventy one, Joe was 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:12.080 born to Nino and Maria Chinque in Newcastle, New South Wales. 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.360 He was named after his grandfather, Giuseppe or Joe for short, 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.080 A beautiful I love. Yeah. It was a way to 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.360 carry on his heritage. They thought he was the most 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.600 that's right, German heritage. They thought he was the most 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.080 beautiful baby they'd ever seen, do you. 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:33.120 I mean most parents say that. Mine did not about me. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.280 What my older sister Katie was the most beautiful baby 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:38.600 anyone's ever seen. And then I came out and my 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.439 mom was like, oh, she does not look. 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:41.559 Like she does not look like Kaie. 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.200 The reason my godmother is my godmother is because she 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.559 was like, oh my god, it's beautiful. And Mom was like, no, 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:49.920 she's not an I don't like you can and we'll 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.280 be listening to this too, actually, and I was like, 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.160 yes she is, and Mama, well you can have. 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.720 Joe's parents immigrated to Australia from Italy four years prior 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.679 they knew it in now he said Germany. In nineteen 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.160 seventy five, Nino and Maria welcomed their second boy, Anthony. 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:11.200 With two boys, the house was bustling, often described as chaotic. 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.559 It's my worst time, toys and games all over the floor, 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:16.720 kind of like digs. I was living with digs. But 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:21.520 Nino and Maria loved everything about it. They were happy 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.120 to have their two boys. They lived in a red 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.240 brick house in Newcastle. Newcastle is a harbor city in 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:32.040 the Australian state of New South Wales. It's located one 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.679 hundred and sixty two kilometers or one hundred and one 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.960 miles from Sydney. Joe's mum was a housewife and his 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.600 father worked as a tradesman. Joe saw that his dad. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.079 Joe saw what his dad had done for a living, 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.640 and he ended up working at the same company that 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.520 he and his grandfather and his father had all worked out. 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.720 Oh my god, before they knew it. Joe and Anthony 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:59.000 were young men, growing up all too soon for Maria's liking, 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.240 but they would all all have family dinners every single 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.760 night because they all stayed close by. Joe was a 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.640 gifted athlete, playing tennis and soccer. There were trophies littered 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:15.600 all around the family home. He also radiated confidence and energy. 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.640 He was a great student and a fantastic friend, often 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.440 the one to bury the hatchet in any quarrel and 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:24.720 find a way to move on. So two friends were 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:26.440 kind of finding he'd be the one to go to. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.640 He was extremely well liked by everyone who met him. 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:33.160 You just couldn't help but be drawn to him. He 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.240 wanted to study architecture, but also didn't want a career 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.199 that would keep him inside all day strapped to the desk. 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.360 So instead he decided to take up a career in 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:47.360 civil engineering. Wow. In nineteen ninety four, at just twenty 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:51.280 four years old, he graduated university. His parents had bought 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.080 him a ticket overseas as a gift for graduating. 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:55.720 Oh nice marine, nice one. 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.640 He really wanted to go traveling before starting his working life, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.240 and time broke it off with his girlfriend, Rebecca, who 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.400 everyone kind of thought he'd end up with. 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.000 Oh god, that's not very nice, Like, see, I. 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.760 Want to go. I know, yeah, I know. I don't 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.400 know if you said it like that, but that's probably Yeah. 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.839 After Joe died, Rebecca turned up to the family home 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.839 and told Maria that she just wished Joe had loved 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.720 her like she had loved him on that heartbreaking She 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:25.240 bought flowers and told her that, oh my god. When 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.000 he got back, he found a job at a civil 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.200 engineering company as a project manager, which was close to 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:32.600 his family in Newcastle. 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:34.600 I want to get sorry. I wanted to look at 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.920 what Joe looks like. I'd like to have a visual 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.320 of him. Yeah, of course I actually know what a 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.840 new sing looks like. But isn't that terrible I know 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:43.720 what she looks like. And I've actually got in my 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:48.000 notes the name a new sin for an episode to do. 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.079 Oh really, not Joe's. Is that terrible? We always talk 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.120 about how you know that shouldn't be the. 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.520 Because yeah, yeah, Maria, Joe's mother said in Helen Ghana's 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.400 book that Joe's father and grandfather had worked the same 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.240 engineering company, like I said before, so it's a big 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.240 over you know, International Corporation. 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.160 Oh yes, yeah, I'm looking at him. Yeah, yeah, they 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.880 look very I mean, this is such a boring basic 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.280 thing to say. They look like a couple in the nineties. Yeah, like, yeah, 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:17.319 kind of mid to late twenties. 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:17.880 A good looking couple. 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:20.800 Yeah, he looks quite American. 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:22.200 He does, doesn't he He's. 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.600 Very like chies or jaw, a bit like. 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:27.120 Like Italian American. Doesn't mean like, he's got a very 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:31.760 Italian kind of face, boyish charm. If he didn't have 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.640 enough to do, like you know, all week, he'd find 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.160 he'd find himself really restless. Maria kind of noticed this 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:40.439 with him from a young age. He would hang out 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.440 with friends, go to the pub, or put in extra 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:46.280 hours at work with his friends. He would regularly hang 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.280 out at a local pub called the Brewery. That's when 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.600 he met twenty two year old a new thing. She's 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.559 only two, only twenty two at the time. Yeah. Anu 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.000 was born in India on September third, nineteen seventy two. 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:04.200 Parents relocated to Newcastle when she was really young. Both 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.480 of her parents were doctors and pushed their children to 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.679 do well in their studies. And you had completed her 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:14.320 schooling and got a h SC. Do I say that right? 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:14.720 Yeah? 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:21.120 But and HS and HSC to go into economics and 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.160 law in at a n U, which is the Australian 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:30.000 National University in Canberra. She also called the Act the. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:34.640 Act the Act of going to University. Correct a little 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.640 bit of trivia for our international listeners because I would 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.320 has it. I guess most people outside of Australia don't 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.199 know this. Canberra is actually our capital city, not Sydney. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.559 Yeah, and it was because the two were fighting it out, 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.719 weren't they. 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.320 As we always do even hundred years ago. We were, 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.280 And so they just picked a city in the middle. 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.080 And you know what it's It is a lovely place, Canberra. 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.959 I quite like Canberra, but they're nothing around it. 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.559 No, it's yeah, it's in the it's in the middle, 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:05.520 just a city that they was not even in the middle. 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.760 It's closer to Sydney. But that's a very Melbourne person. 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.520 To say they got it close up. Yeah, So she 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.240 moved down there and started her degree. So that a 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.760 New moved to Canberra and started her degree in the 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.200 early nineties, but didn't cope living away from a home. 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.440 She called her mother a lot and would go back 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:29.080 home frequently. A New was extremely attractive, high achieving, and 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.000 very well spoken. She had a focus on going to 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:36.600 the gym and was an obsessive dieter. Her parents ended 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.240 up moving to Sydney and lived and worked there, and 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.720 You graduated in economics and her plan was to go 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:45.240 back and finish her law degree. 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:45.720 Wow. 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.640 When Anew and Joe met at the brewery, they immediately 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.360 hit it off. A New was back home for a 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.480 short period of time. Their two friendship groups happened to 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.360 know each other and they got chatting. Anew had a 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.320 boyfriend at the time who she lived with in Canberra. 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.600 His name was Simon Walsh. One report stated that he 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.240 found out about the fling and ended it. Another stated 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:12.920 that the more time Joe and a New spent together 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.120 the less she could see Simon and it eventually fizzled out. 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:19.120 So I don't really know which one is true. There 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:21.680 it seemed like, yeah, he found out about it, big 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:23.920 blow up, or that they stayed together for a while 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:24.920 and the eventually. 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:26.640 It sounds like there was some kind of crossover. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.720 There was some sort of crossovering. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.960 Joe was the reason she and Simon ended. Yep, yet 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:32.440 whatever the timeline was. 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.880 That's right. Yeah, but a New was really heartbroken by 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.520 the breakup with Simon. Senior parole Officer Naomi Buick had 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.760 spent hours interviewing a New and said that she had 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.800 terminated a pregnancy while with Simon, which had a lasting 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:48.240 and traumatic effect on her. 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:49.080 Oh sad. 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.160 She was particularly hurt by a claim he made calling 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:58.640 her intellectually inferior, which which is what she said about others. 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.400 So it really hit her, I guess because she said 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.240 about everybody. Yeah, it had a really big impact on her. 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.000 It was a huge turning point in her behavior. 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.280 So she's allowed to call other people intellectually inferior, but 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.400 if someone calls her that, yeah she was crazy. 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.480 Yeah, okay, dish it out, but you can't take care 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:22.000 not me. I didn't growl and I didn't cover that 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.840 out of the podcast. By late nineteen ninety five, she 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.880 developed bollimia. She spiraled into a deep depression and moved 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:34.359 back in with her parents. She wanted liposuction and refused 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.840 to admit that she was suffering. She had a diet 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.920 of Coca cola, tim tams, and she would smoke. She 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.160 also dabbled in drugs. So she actually I think that 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:49.200 her dad actually went through with the liposuction, which there 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:49.920 was no. 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:51.520 She had went through with it. 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.960 Sorry, So I actually paid for her to have liposuctions. 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.160 So she was really kind of the way that she 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.240 spoke to people. She kind of seemed like she did 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.800 to get her way with anything that she said, and 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.479 there was nothing to her. She was the skinniest person 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:08.080 and actually had lipeer sunction. 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.359 I just looked up the photos understand that. 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.840 Joe had been in an awful car accident with his 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.560 family at the age of just eight years old. His mother, Maria, 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.119 had a debilitating foot injury, and so Joe acted as 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:25.359 caretaker during this time. He was soon to become a 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.119 caretaker once again to a new They would talk on 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:33.240 the phone dozens of times per day, dozens dozens, So 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:35.399 when he was in Newcastle and she was in Canberra, 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:37.280 a call about fifteen times a day. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:38.120 Well that's toxic. 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.840 Joe was now by her side and her condition did 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.560 not show signs of improvements. One of the things that 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:45.840 was often commented that Anew would say that she was 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:47.639 really sick, she had something, and Joe would have to 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.880 continually go back to Camber to look after her. 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:51.199 I've known a couple like that. 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.000 Yeah, it's really yeah, Well I. 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:54.240 Didn't end h murder on my lord. 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.199 No, I didn't. So that what did you look at me? 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.560 And the iron growl as well? 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:01.120 That out of a podcast too. 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.920 Joe. Joe had fallen head over heels for a new 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.439 and who was a strikingly beautiful person. Like I mentioned before, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.800 Knew and Joe would talk for hours and hours at 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:17.040 a time. By nineteen ninety six they were dating exclusively nice. 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:18.200 Nice. 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.320 They spent its like I looked at you like you. 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.119 We always say because it looks at you, don't always 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:24.040 say nice. 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.640 You haven't been talking about without exclusively ready one two 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:28.840 three Nice. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.080 They spent most of their free time together and from 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:38.000 the outside looked like a very happy couple. Joe's family 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.000 sat down for dinner with a new to finally meet her. 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.639 They wanted to know kind of who this person was 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:47.040 that their son was spending all this time with. Joe's 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.080 parents believed she was intelligent, but thought that something was 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:51.119 a bit off about her. 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:52.160 Oh. 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.359 She brought up a lot of odd topics, talking a 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.760 lot about the afterlife, and also spoke about a previous 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:04.879 relationship in great detail, saying there was almost a little incestuous. 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.400 It was very strange, but her parents passed it off 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.640 as someone who liked to shock people with different out 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:12.600 their ideas. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:14.960 Haang on, I'm going to need to ask more about 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.720 the ancestuous comment. There was a relationship with his family 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:20.480 was incestuous. 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:22.840 There was nothing more about it. But she described their 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.400 sex life in great detail, I think, kind of saying 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:27.960 that he was like a brother to her. It was 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.760 like really incestuous. Joe didn't say anything at the time 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.200 and continued eating, so she just kind of spoke about 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.600 all of this in great detail. 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:39.520 He is used to it, she speaks like that all 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:41.600 the time. Or maybe he felt uncomfortable so just didn't 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:43.040 get involved in the comp's. 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.160 Kind of yeah, well, it is kind of alleged that 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.560 he felt uncomfortable and that she was quite controlling. She 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:48.399 did all the talking. 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.840 There's nothing wrong with that. Samy way looking in the iron. 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.080 Growling didn't growl for Joe's friends and who was confident 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:59.520 and domineering. It was pushing Joe into the background. He 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.399 was become less sociable and let a new take the 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.520 lead in every single conversation. It didn't help when the 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.880 chin Quis found out that Anew was keeping their relationship 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.960 a secret from her parents. They wanted her to prioritize 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:18.480 her studies over boys. Joe instructed his parents to say 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:20.960 if they ever met the Sings to say that he 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.160 was just a friend of a news brother. 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.600 Which is interesting because why would they meet if it 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:27.399 weren't because they were dating. 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:29.840 Well, I don't know. In case they just dropped in 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.920 in Canberra. Maybe I don't know that because I was 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:36.240 living together. They ended up living together. Yeah, yeah, I 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:37.840 think I reckon. 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:42.520 The only partner I don't know, the only like parents 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.440 of a partner my parents ever met was like at 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.399 you know, maybe a twenty first birthday party, like until 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.760 my parents were yes, I wanted to go and made 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:55.920 them didn't invite them. 0:20:56.080 --> 0:21:00.480