1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: This is gem nation were Jones? 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 2: Did you know that we're distracted every three minutes and 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 2: that switching tasks to check our phone or emails while 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: we're working lowers our IQ. These are just some of 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 2: the truths found in the book Stolen Focus. Everyone I 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: know is reading this book at the moment. It explores 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: why we're losing the ability to pay attention and what 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: that costs us. But it's not necessarily our fault. The 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: author of this book, Johann Hari, joins us. Now, well, hello. 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: Hello, hey Jones, Hey man, I'm so happy to be 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: with you. 12 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 3: Oh aren't You can't And we must appreciate the irony 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 3: we are looking at you on a screen right now. 14 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 4: I know, I know, just we've got to accept this irony, 15 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 4: Lead into it, go with it. 16 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 2: It's interesting that you say a digital detox is not 17 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: what this is about. It's not just putting your phone 18 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: down for a little while and trying to escape it. 19 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: This is far more in depth than that. 20 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the reason I wrote the book is 21 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 4: because I noticed that my own ability to pay attention 22 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 4: was just getting worse and worse with every year that passed, 23 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 4: and I could see this was happening to everyone around me, 24 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 4: and particularly the young people in my life. You know, 25 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 4: the average office worker now focuses on any one task 26 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 4: for only three minutes. For every one kid who was 27 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 4: identified with serious attention problems when I was seven, there's 28 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 4: now one hundred kids who've got that problem, right, So 29 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 4: I wanted to understand why is this happening to us, 30 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 4: What's going on? So I ended up going on this 31 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 4: big journey all over the world, from Moscow to Miami 32 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 4: to Melbourne. I interviewed over two hundred of the leading 33 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 4: experts on attention and focus in the world, and what 34 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 4: I learned is there's actually scientific evidence for twelve factors 35 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 4: that can make your attention better or can make your 36 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 4: attention worse. Some of them are in our technology, actually 37 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 4: going much wider, loads of stuff I've never even thought about. 38 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 4: But crucially, loads of these factors that can make your 39 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 4: attention worse have been hugely rising in recent years. So 40 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 4: if you're struggling to focus and pay attention, if your 41 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 4: kids are struggling to focus and pay attention, it's not 42 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 4: your fault. It's not that there's something some kind of 43 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 4: have seen you. This is happening to all of us. 44 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: But once we. 45 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 4: Understand these twelve big factors, we can actually begin to 46 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 4: get our brains back. 47 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 5: And we are one of those ones. What's the worst one? 48 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 4: So I think there's different ones that play out for 49 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 4: different people. Some of them really surprised me. The way 50 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 4: we eat, for example, is really harming the way we 51 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 4: focus and pay attention. I think the biggest one that 52 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 4: will be playing out for most people right now is 53 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 4: I went to MIT to interview one of the leading 54 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 4: neuroscientists in the world, an amazing man named Professor Earl Miller, 55 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 4: and he said to me, look, you've got to understand 56 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 4: one thing about the human brain more than anything else. 57 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 4: You can only consciously think about one or two things 58 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 4: at a time. 59 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: That's it. 60 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 4: This is just a fundamental limitation of the human brain. 61 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 4: The human brain hasn't changed in forty thousand years. I ain't 62 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 4: going to change anytime soon. But what's happened is we've 63 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 4: fallen for kind of massive delusion. The average teenager now 64 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 4: believes they can follow six or seven forms of media 65 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 4: at the same time. So what happens is scientists like 66 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 4: Professor Miller, they get people into labs and they get 67 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 4: them to think they're doing more than one thing at 68 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 4: a time, And what they discovered is when you try 69 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 4: to do more than one thing at a time, even 70 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 4: something as simple as watching TV and also answering. 71 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: Your text messages, what happens is you start. 72 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 4: To make loads of mistakes, you remember less of what 73 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 4: you do, you're much less creative. And this isn't a 74 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 4: small effect. Being chronically interrupted is twice as bad for 75 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 4: your intelligence as getting stoned. You'd be better off sitting 76 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 4: at your desk smoking a fat splif and doing one 77 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 4: thing at a time. Then you would sitting at your desk, 78 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 4: not smoking a spliff and being chronically interrupted. Now to 79 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 4: be in calase you're geting any bad ideas here, Jones, 80 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 4: you'd be better off neither spoken a spliff nor getting interrupted. 81 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 4: But this is why Professor Miller said, we're living in 82 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 4: a perfect storm of cognitive degradation as a result of 83 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 4: being constantly interrupted. So that's, for example, one of the 84 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 4: twelve big factors. 85 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: And you've said also that the implications of this not just. 86 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 4: Sorry, amna give me one set sorry you if I 87 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 4: can see your sorry, sorry, thanks, sorry. 88 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: The implications of this are it's not just our own 89 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: intelligence breaking down. But the way the world works, you say, 90 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: that problem solving breaks down. This is why climate change 91 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: can't be resolved with our brains like this, because we 92 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: can't focus on the issues. 93 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, such an important point. I would say to anyone listening, 94 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 4: think about anything you've ever achieved in your life that 95 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 4: you're proud of, whether it's starting a business, being a 96 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 4: good parent, learning to play the guitar, whatever it is. 97 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 4: That thing that you're proud of required a huge amount 98 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 4: of sustained focus and attention. And when your ability to 99 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 4: pay attention breaks down, your ability to solve your problem 100 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 4: is breaks down. Your ability to achieve your goals breaks down. 101 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 4: You feel worse about yourself because you are actually less competent. Now, 102 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 4: that's true for us as individuals, right, a lot of 103 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 4: us can feel that we can see it happening to 104 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 4: our kids. That's also true at the level of the society. 105 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: Right. 106 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 4: It's not a coincidence that at the same time that 107 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 4: we've all had these attention problems, our ability to achieve 108 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 4: big goals also getting worse. Because you know, we can't 109 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 4: listen to each other, we can't pay attention to each other. 110 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 4: We're angry with each other all the time. We just 111 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 4: shout at each other. So it's so important that we 112 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 4: deal with this attention crisis, partly for ourselves and our kids, 113 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 4: and partly for our whole society. 114 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 3: I think I always ask myself what did I do 115 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 3: before I had an iPhone? And I can't remember? You know, 116 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 3: when you just sit down and you're eating a sandwich 117 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 3: or something, you come ahead from work. I used to 118 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 3: read like cereal boxes and stuff when I was a kid. 119 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 3: I remember that is that the cereal box for me 120 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: was my iPhone when I. 121 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: Was You see people, even in a doctor's waiting room, 122 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: where you can't see empty handed for a second. You 123 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: have to be doing something with loss. The ability to 124 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: do nothing. 125 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so important, and there's so many things that 126 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 4: happen when you're just sitting there doing nothing. When your 127 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 4: mind wanders, that's actually when you begin to solve your problems. 128 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 4: It's actually when you start to think creative. But you 129 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 4: can see how that's been really kind of chased out 130 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 4: of our life. But I really want to give people 131 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 4: an optimistic message because you know, when I started the 132 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 4: research from my book Stolen Focus, to be honest, I 133 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 4: just thought I had two stories in my head about 134 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 4: what had happened to me. Right, I thought, well, you're weak, 135 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 4: you're not strong enough to resist this, and someone invented 136 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 4: the smartphone, and that screwed me over right. 137 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: These are two stories out. 138 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 4: Of actually from interviewing these two hundred scientists, from learning 139 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 4: the science of this, I learned that those a really 140 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 4: hugely oversimplified ways of thinking about this, and we can 141 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 4: actually get to the deeper solutions to get our brains back. 142 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 4: And I think for all of the twelve factors that 143 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 4: I write about in Stolen Focus, there are really kind 144 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,119 Speaker 4: of two ways we've got to respond at the same time. 145 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 4: I think of them as defense and offense. There are 146 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 4: loads of things that we can do as individuals to 147 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 4: defend ourselves and our kids from these forces that are 148 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 4: harming our attention. I'll give you an example of one 149 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 4: I give loads in the book. So I've got at 150 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 4: home something called a case safe. It's I don't get 151 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 4: any commission from these people, by the way, that sounds 152 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: going to go to QBC mode now. But case afe 153 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 4: there's a plastic safe. You tell take off the lid 154 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 4: you put in your phone, you put on the lid, 155 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 4: you turn the dial and it locks your phone away 156 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 4: for anything between five minutes and a whole day. I 157 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 4: won't sit down and watch a film with my partner 158 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 4: unless we both put our phones in the phone jail, 159 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 4: and what have my friends around for dinner? And as 160 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 4: everyone in prisons their phone, I would say, anyone who's 161 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 4: a parent, the number of parents I know, and I'm 162 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 4: more sympathetic to this, but who are constantly yelling at 163 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 4: their kids to get off their phone while they themselves 164 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 4: are staring at their phone, I would say every family 165 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 4: buy a case safe and have start with just fifteen 166 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 4: minutes a day when you all imprison your phones and 167 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 4: have to look at each other right, and then gradually 168 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 4: expand the amount of time. 169 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: So that's an example of one of the things. 170 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 4: We can do. Obviously, go through loads and loads more. 171 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 4: But I want to be really honest with people, because 172 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,559 Speaker 4: I don't think most books about attention are being honest 173 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 4: with people. I am passionately in favor of these individual changes. 174 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 4: They will make a real difference, but on their own 175 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 4: they're not going to solve the problem because at the moment, 176 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 4: it's like someone is pouring itching powder over us. All 177 00:07:58,480 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 4: day and then leaning for. 178 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: W to go. You know what, mate, you might want 179 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: to learn how to. 180 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 4: Meditate, then you wouldn't scratch so much, and you want 181 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 4: to go, well, screw you, I'll learn to meditate. 182 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: That's really good. 183 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 4: But you need to stop pouring this itching powder on me, right, 184 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 4: So we've got to actually take on the forces that 185 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 4: are doing this to us. For example, all the social 186 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 4: media apps we use at the moment and that our 187 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 4: kids use are specifically designed to hack and invade your 188 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 4: attention and keep you scrolling right the best I would 189 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 4: spend a lot of time in Silicon Valley. I interviewed 190 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 4: the people who designed the world in which we live, 191 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 4: and it was fascinating how incredibly guilty they feel about 192 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 4: what they've done. One of the people I interviewed a 193 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 4: guy called Dr James Williams, who've been at the heart 194 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 4: of Google. One day, he spoke at a tech conference 195 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 4: and the audience was the people who literally designed stuff 196 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 4: that your kids are using today. And he said to them, 197 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 4: if there's anyone here who wants to live in the 198 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 4: world that we're creating, please put up your hand. And 199 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 4: nobody put up their hand, right. So the way that 200 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 4: Silicon Valley and tech is working at the moment is 201 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 4: that it is designed to hack and invade our attention. 202 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 4: But it doesn't have to work that way. Right, we 203 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 4: can regulate those companies so they're not behaving that way, 204 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 4: so we still have all the technology we currently have. 205 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 4: Think about there's an example in the history of Australia 206 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 4: that really helped me to think about this. So I 207 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 4: think we're all about the same age. You'll remember when 208 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 4: we were kids, the most common, the dominant form of petrol, 209 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 4: the only ford petrol in Britain and Australia was leaded petrol. Right, 210 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 4: and a bit before our time, people used to paint 211 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 4: their homes with leaded paint, and it was discovered that 212 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 4: exposure to lead really screws up children's brains and particularly 213 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 4: their ability to pay attention. So a group of ordinary 214 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 4: Australian mums what we used to call housewives, banded together 215 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 4: and said, well, why are we allowing it? Why are 216 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 4: we allowing these companies to screw up our kids' brains? 217 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 4: And it's important to notice what they didn't say. They 218 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 4: didn't say, so let's ban all pain, let's ban all petrol. Right, 219 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 4: that would have been ridiculous in the same way. None 220 00:09:57,920 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 4: of us are saying let's get rid of tech, right, 221 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 4: we don't. In the Armish, what they said was, let's 222 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 4: deal with the specific aspect of the petrol that's harming 223 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 4: our kids' brains. 224 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: Right, And they. 225 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 4: Fought like hell for their kids, these mums, and they 226 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 4: fought for years, and everyone listening knows in the end 227 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 4: they won. There's no more lead in our petrol. As 228 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 4: a result, the average Australian child is five iq points 229 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 4: higher than they would have been. Have we not got 230 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 4: rid of petrol? 231 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: Now? 232 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 4: I think we've got to do something with these facts 233 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 4: like this, with the factors that are screwing up our attention, 234 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 4: from the factors in our food supply, to the way 235 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 4: our schools work, to the way our workplaces work, to 236 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 4: the aspects of our technology. Absolutely we can deal with 237 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 4: these things. I went to places that have begun to 238 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 4: do it, from New Zealand to France. You know James Williams, 239 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,599 Speaker 4: who I just mentioned, the guy who worked at the 240 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 4: heart of Google. He said to me, look, the acts 241 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 4: existed for one point four million years before anyone said, guys, 242 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 4: should we put. 243 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: A handle on this down? Right? 244 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 4: The entire Internet has existed for less than ten thousand days. 245 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 4: This stuff out, These are relatively recent problems. We can 246 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 4: remember times when attention was much better. Right. Ye, we 247 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 4: absolutely can solve these problems, but to get there, we 248 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 4: need a big change in mindset. We need to stop 249 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 4: blaming ourselves to our children. It's not your fault, it's 250 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 4: not their fault. And we need to stop only asking 251 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 4: for small changes. That I'm strongly in favor of small changes, 252 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 4: and there's lots of them I talk about in my 253 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 4: book Stolen Focus. 254 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: But we've got to also, You've. 255 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 4: Got to realize, you know, we're not like medieval peasants 256 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 4: begging Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk for a few little 257 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 4: crumbs of attention from their table. We are the free 258 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 4: citizens of democracies, and we own our own minds, and together, 259 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 4: if we understand what's causing this crisis, we can take 260 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 4: our minds back. 261 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: And I'm just when you're speaking like that, I'm a 262 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 3: god that just now people are saying, oh, maybe we 263 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 3: should ban mobile phones from schools. I'm thinking, yeah, it 264 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 3: just makes sense. Why would you have a moment, Why 265 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 3: would a kid be allowed to have a mobile phone? 266 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 5: In school, sort. 267 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: Of waiting to hear that you got an organ Yeah, 268 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: when I went. 269 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 4: To schools that have done that, so like Berkeley High School, 270 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 4: for example, in California, and in fact in France, all 271 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 4: schools have banned mobile phones, and the transformation in those 272 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: schools were amazing. At the moment, every teacher is having 273 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 4: to compete with basically all the entertainment in the world. Yeah, 274 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 4: unbelievably sophisticated people that the kids have got in their hands. Right, 275 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 4: The test scores got much better, but more importantly, the kids' 276 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 4: mental health got much better because they were doing the 277 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 4: things that we all know we've been deprived of in 278 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 4: the last two years. Things as basic as eye contact, 279 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 4: looking at each other. Look if screens, And there's lots 280 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 4: of good things about the Internet, and lots of good 281 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 4: things about screens, but if screens met our deepest needs 282 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 4: as human beings, we would all have been totally fine 283 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 4: in the last two years. 284 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: Right. 285 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 4: Instead, I bet no one listening in the last two 286 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 4: years ever heard anyone say the sentence hooray another zoom 287 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 4: calle say that. 288 00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: Right, because it makes us feel ter. 289 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 4: It's not what we evolved to do. We evolved to 290 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 4: look into each other's eyes, to be present with each other. 291 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 4: So you're right, that's one of the steps we can 292 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 4: take is banning cell phones from schools office. I go 293 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 4: through dozens more in the book, big steps that we 294 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 4: can take and smaller steps. 295 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: But you're totally right. 296 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 4: We've got to give our kids at least one space 297 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 4: where they are in the physical we're present and in 298 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 4: the physical world with each other. 299 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: You know, I had a real. 300 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 4: The thing that made me write the book was this 301 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 4: moment that really it's funny. I still find it quite 302 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 4: difficult to talk about. 303 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: So I've got a. 304 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 4: Godson who's not godsund is now twenty two, and when 305 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 4: he was nine he developed this brief but very intense 306 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 4: obsession with Elvis Presley, and it was unbelievably cute because 307 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 4: he seemed to genuinely not know that impersonating Elvis have 308 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 4: become like a kind of cheesy cliche. I think it 309 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 4: was the last person to do a totally sincere impression 310 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 4: of Elvis. And when I used to tuck him in 311 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 4: at night, he used to get me to tell him 312 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 4: the story of Elvis's life over and over again. Obviously, 313 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 4: I skipped over the bit at the end where he 314 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 4: died on the toilet and one night, one night, I 315 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 4: mentioned Graceland, where Elvis lived, and he said to me, Yohan, 316 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 4: will you take me to Graceland one day? And I 317 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 4: was like, sure, the way you do with nine year olds. No, 318 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 4: next week it'll be Legoland or whatever. And he said, 319 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 4: look to me really intensely. He said, no, do you 320 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 4: swear one day you're going to take me to Graceland? 321 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 4: And I said, I absolutely swear. And I didn't think 322 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 4: at that moment again for ten years until everything had 323 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 4: gone wrong. So he dropped out of school when he 324 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 4: was fifteen, and by the time he was nineteen. I mean, 325 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: this will sound like an exaggeration, it's not. He spent 326 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 4: literally all his waking hours online, right. He would alternate 327 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 4: between his iPad, his iPhone, and his laptop, and it's 328 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 4: like his life was just this blur of WhatsApp, YouTube, porn. 329 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 4: And one day we were sitting on my sofa in 330 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 4: London and I was trying to get a conversation going 331 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 4: with him all day and I just couldn't do it. 332 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 4: He just it's like I couldn't get any traction. 333 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: In his mind. 334 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 4: It was like he was kind of whirring at the 335 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 4: speed of Snapchat, And to be totally honest with you both, 336 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 4: I wasn't that much better, right. I was staring at 337 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 4: my own devices, and I suddenly remembered this moment all 338 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 4: these years before. And I looked a him and I said, Hey, 339 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 4: let's go to Graceland, right. And he looked at me 340 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 4: completely blankly, didn't remember this moment. And I was like, no, 341 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 4: I reminded him, and I said, let's break this numbing routine. 342 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 4: Let's get the hell out of it. Let's go all 343 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 4: over the South. I thought about it, and I said, 344 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 4: but you've got to promise me one thing, which is 345 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 4: that when we go, if we do this, you'll leave 346 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 4: your phone in the hotel during the day. There's no 347 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 4: boot And I was going, I'm just going to stare 348 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 4: at your phone the whole time. And he took a 349 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 4: bit of time, and he really thought about it, and 350 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 4: he said, let's do this. And so I think it 351 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 4: was literally three weeks later we took off. We went 352 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 4: to New Orleans first, and about two weeks after that 353 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 4: we arrived at the gates of Graceland, right. And when 354 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 4: you get there, this is even before COVID. There's no 355 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 4: one to show you around anymore. What happens is they 356 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 4: they hand you an iPad and you put in earbuds, yeah, 357 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 4: and the iPad shows you around. It says like go left, 358 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 4: go right. It tells you something about the room you're in, 359 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 4: and every room you go in, there's a picture of 360 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 4: that room on the iPad. 361 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,359 Speaker 1: Right. So we're walking. 362 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 4: Around Graceland and I'm just getting this weird feeling, and 363 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 4: I notice no one's actually looking at Graceland. Everyone's just 364 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 4: staring at the iPad, right. And the only break they 365 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 4: take and stare at the iPad is they sometimes take 366 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 4: out their phones, take a selfie, put the phone back 367 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 4: and look at the iPad. So I'm get a bit 368 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 4: pissed off. Right, and we got to the Jungle Room. 369 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 4: That was Elvis's favorite room. So those are fake plants, 370 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 4: and I never forget it. There was a Canadian couple 371 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 4: next to us, and the man turned to his wife 372 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 4: and he said, honey, this is amazing. 373 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: Look. If you swipe. 374 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 4: Left, you can see the Jungle room to the left, 375 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 4: and if you swipe right, and you can see the 376 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 4: Jungle room to the right. And I laughed, like you 377 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 4: just did. I was like, oh, it's a funny joke, right, 378 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 4: And I turned and looked at them and they were 379 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 4: just swiping back and forth. And I leaned over and 380 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 4: I was like, hey, sir, there's there's an old fashioned 381 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 4: born of swiping you could do. It's cool turning your head, 382 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 4: but you're in the room. Realize we're actually in the 383 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 4: jungle room. You don't have to look at it on 384 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 4: the internet. It's literally all around you. It's right in 385 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:18,959 Speaker 4: front of you. And they looked to me like I 386 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 4: was completely insane and backed out the room. And I 387 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 4: turned to my godson to laugh about it, and he 388 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 4: was standing in the corner staring at Snapchat, because from 389 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 4: the minute we landed he. 390 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: Could not stop. He just couldn't stop. 391 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 4: And I went up to him and I did that 392 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 4: thing that's never a good idea with teenagers. I tried 393 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 4: to grab the phone out of his hand and I 394 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 4: said to him, look, I know you're afraid of missing out, 395 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 4: but this is guaranteeing that you'll miss out. Right, you're 396 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 4: not present at your own life. You're not showing up 397 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 4: at the events of your own existence. And understandably, he 398 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 4: stormed off, and I wandered around Memphis on my own 399 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 4: that night, and then I found him. I found him 400 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 4: that evening in the in the heart Break, a hotel 401 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 4: where we were staying, down the street. He was sitting 402 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 4: by the big guitar Storks swimming pool looking at his phone, 403 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 4: and I went up to him and I apologized for 404 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 4: getting so angry, and he didn't look up from a snapchat, 405 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 4: but he said, I know something's really wrong here, but 406 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 4: I don't know what it is. And that's when I thought, God, 407 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 4: we came. We went away to get away from this 408 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 4: problem of distraction, but there was nowhere to escape to 409 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 4: because it was everywhere. And that was when I thought, God, 410 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 4: I need to really understand what's going on here. And 411 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 4: that's when I sort of began this journey that led 412 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 4: to writing stylein focus and where I really realized I 413 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 4: had to understand the factors that we're doing this to 414 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 4: all of us and how we can solve them. 415 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 3: And we're living in it now. We're living in it 416 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: with this conversation now, and I think, look at my 417 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: youngest he's he's exactly the same as your God sound 418 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 3: and me. He's on about four screens at once, and 419 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 3: I think how much information are you taking in? 420 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 5: But you're not taking in that much information. 421 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: You're just you're not And even with this job, I 422 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: don't like that. I go home and scroll through my 423 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: phone looking for things to talk about on the radio 424 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: that I do hyper vigilance. 425 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 5: It's too much exhausted. We should just get on the weed. 426 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 5: Just bring out the sta get on the weed. That's 427 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 5: all I got out of it, heard him say it. 428 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 5: But I could talk to you all day. 429 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 3: But there's fascinating stolen focuses in all good bookstores and online. 430 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 5: Now are Johann Hari. Thank you so much for joining us. 431 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: Oh what a pleasure. I really enjoyed talking to you both. Cheers. 432 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 5: I won't get on the weed. 433 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: If you come out to Australia, can we have dinner 434 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: with you? 435 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 3: I just love It's just fascinating. But my youngest dom 436 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 3: is exactly like you're like. He just and I have 437 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 3: this thing with him yesterday because he works at A. 438 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 2: He's nineteen, youngest, he's not baby, he's. 439 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: Not a little kid. 440 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 5: So he works at A. He works from up from 441 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 5: our house. 442 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 3: He works at a place called the Royal mate of 443 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 3: Yacht Club, So he literally has to walk about fifty 444 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 3: or now one hundred meters to work, and it's the 445 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 3: easiest job in the world. No one goes there. It's 446 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 3: not like Hell's Angels drink there. It's a it's and 447 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 3: he up the air yesterday morning at five to eleven 448 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 3: to start his shift at eleven. He didn't have a 449 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: work shirit and my wife's sort of saying, well, got 450 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 3: to get your shit together and all that, and he 451 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 3: sort of storms off. I'm going, mate, if you lose 452 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 3: this job, your kissed one. The dick with this job, 453 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 3: you know, As I had this talk about how much 454 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 3: time he spends on the screen, and I noticed last 455 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: night because he's been when I wake up at the 456 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: morning at three point forty to go to work, I 457 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: noticed he's gaming away at four in the morning. 458 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 5: Still, I'm thinking that's not healthy, you know, And. 459 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: Well, you know, that's a really important factor. 460 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 4: Actually, I interviewed some of the leading sleep experts in 461 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 4: the world, and one of the biggest changes that happened 462 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 4: is that we sleep twenty percent less than people did 463 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 4: one hundred years ago. Children sleep eighty five minutes less 464 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 4: than they did a century ago. And even if nothing 465 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 4: else had changed, the lack of sleep would be completely 466 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 4: screwing up our ability to pay attention. People like Dr 467 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 4: Charles Seislinho's the leading expert at Harvard Medical School. 468 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: On this, explained to me. 469 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 4: So, the whole time you're awake, your brain is building 470 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 4: up something called metabolic waste. It's one expert calls brain 471 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 4: cell poop, which really helped me think about it. Right, 472 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 4: to just build your basically shedding brain cell poop, right, 473 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 4: and then when you go to sleep, a watery fluid 474 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 4: washes through your brain and it carries all that brain 475 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 4: cell poop down to. 476 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: Your liver and out of your body. Right. 477 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 4: When you don't get eight hours sleep a night, your 478 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 4: brain is literally clogged up when you wake up. You 479 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 4: know that feel when you're quite tired, when you feel 480 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 4: almost hungover or clogged up. That's not a metaphor. Your 481 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 4: brain is actually clogged up, right, And this has a 482 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 4: devastating effect on attension. If you stay awake for nineteen hours, 483 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 4: which doesn't sound like very much to me, In fact, 484 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 4: I did it yesterday, your attention deteriorates as much as 485 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 4: if you've got legally drunk. Right, So I talk about 486 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 4: to the sleep crisis is one of the twelve big 487 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 4: factors that's really that will definitely be playing out for 488 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 4: your son, right, and when you're tired, you can see 489 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 4: how all these factors begin to combine. We all know 490 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 4: a day when you're naked is a day when you're 491 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 4: much more likely to then mindlessly scroll through tiktop. You're 492 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 4: much more likely to just stuff your face with KFC 493 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 4: or whatever. So you can see how a lot of 494 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 4: these factors. So think about another one food, right, that 495 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 4: might be playing out in your son's life. So there's 496 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 4: this whole new, really interesting area of science called nutritional psychiatry, 497 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 4: which is figuring out how the things we eat affect 498 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 4: our brains. It's totally fascinating that interviewed loads of these 499 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 4: people and looked into their scientific discoveries, and they discovered 500 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 4: loads of ways in which the way we eat is 501 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 4: really harming our focus and attention. I'll give you an 502 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 4: example of one. I go through lots more in the book. 503 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 4: And let's say that you eat the standard breakfast that 504 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 4: I grew up eating, so like either a sugary cereal 505 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 4: or white bread with toast, like toasted butter, right toasted 506 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 4: white bread. What that does is it releases a huge 507 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 4: amount of energy really quickly into your brain, right, and. 508 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: You feel great. 509 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 4: You're like, ah, I'm awake, the day has begun, right. 510 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 4: But what happens is that's put so much energy into 511 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 4: your brain so fast in a way that would never 512 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 4: happen where we evopt circumstances where we evolved, You'll get 513 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 4: to your desk or your kid or get to their 514 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 4: score desk, and an hour an hour and a half 515 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 4: later you'll get a really bad energy crash, and then 516 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 4: you get what's called brainfall, where you just can't think 517 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 4: very clearly until you have another sugary carbon treat right. So, 518 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 4: the way we eat basically releases so much energy so 519 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 4: fast and causes crashes that we're on a kind of 520 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 4: roller coaster of energy spikes and energy crashes throughout the day. 521 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 4: Whereas if, for example, you just date porridge in the 522 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 4: morning oatmeal with blueberries, that releases energy quite steadily. So 523 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 4: the way one of the experts on it, Dale Pinnox, 524 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 4: put it to me is at the moment, it's like 525 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 4: we're putting rocket fuel into a mini little British cars. 526 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: It will go really fast for five minutes and then 527 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: it will just stop right now. 528 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 4: It's so interesting because I had never thought about sleep 529 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 4: as something that affected my attention. I never thought about 530 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 4: food as something that affected my attention. 531 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: There's so many of. 532 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 4: These factors that I learned the science or pistole of 533 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 4: focus that it hadn't even occurred to me. But then 534 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 4: once you know these things, you can begin to protect 535 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 4: yourself and change your behavior, and you get out of 536 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 4: this thing of like, what's wrong with me? Right? 537 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: Because I think so many people are. 538 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 4: Reacting to this attention crisis by being like, what's wrong 539 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 4: with me? Why can't I do the things I used 540 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 4: to do? But when you understand these factors, you're like, 541 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 4: it makes sense, right, This isn't my fault. I didn't 542 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 4: design the food supply system, you know, I didn't design 543 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 4: I think about the school system. The way our school 544 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 4: systems work is it's not the thought of teachers at all. 545 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 4: They didn't want this either. It is a disaster for 546 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 4: kids attention at the moment. 547 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: So there's so. 548 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 4: Many of these elements that we need to we need 549 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 4: to understand, and once you do, it really does begin 550 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 4: to make sense. 551 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 3: I think, well, we're gonna lose our studio, But men 552 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 3: I love to you. 553 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 5: So interesting than you even get. 554 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: To talk about neighbors. 555 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 5: That's for another time. You and I know it, and 556 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 5: thank you so much. It was really great. 557 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: It was fantastic. Thank you.