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Speaker 1: Now, there's always plenty to discuss in here, and yesterday

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Speaker 1: we heard from the Housing Minister about the government unveiling

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Speaker 1: its public housing reforms to tackle crime and anti social behavior,

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Speaker 1: with rent areas currently sitting at thirty nine million dollars now.

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Speaker 1: The reforms include fast tracking pathways to eviction, a review

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Speaker 1: of visitor management and the red card policy, as well

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Speaker 1: as giving greater powers to public housing safety offices. The

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Speaker 1: Minister for Housing, Steve Edgington, had said that a major

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Speaker 1: overhaul is needed to ensure that problem tenants face consequences

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Speaker 1: and that the government would be looking to claw back

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Speaker 1: the thirty nine million dollars. Now. I was just having

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Speaker 1: a look as well at the public housing wait times,

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Speaker 1: I mean eight to ten years in many cases for

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Speaker 1: some of these public housing properties. Now joining me in

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Speaker 1: the studio to talk more about this is MT Shelters

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Speaker 1: CEO Annie Taylor. Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Annie, Thank good morning, Thanks for having me, lovely.

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Speaker 1: To have you in this studio. Thank you for your time. Now, Annie,

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Speaker 1: what was your reaction to the reforms that were announced

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Speaker 1: by the Housing Minister.

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Speaker 2: We'll look a situation where a tenant has significant levels

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Speaker 2: of debt to the department. It's not good for the department,

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Speaker 2: but it's not good for the tenant or the family

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Speaker 2: at the core of this either, and many of those

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Speaker 2: tenants would be dealing with some quiet complex issues here.

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Speaker 2: And public housing tenants, like any of us, don't want

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Speaker 2: to live in a neighborhood that isn't thriving. We all

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Speaker 2: want to live in a thriving community. So I think

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Speaker 2: rather than taking a punitive response, the immediate response should

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Speaker 2: be ensuring that everyone is connected up to a tendancy

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Speaker 2: support program and making sure we have some early intervention

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Speaker 2: as well when it comes to tenancy support programs.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of you know, paying your rent, is

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Speaker 1: it something like I was sort of surprised that, And look,

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Speaker 1: maybe I've got the wrong view, but I was kind

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Speaker 1: of surprised that in some instances it's maybe not set

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Speaker 1: up to align with either you know, to come out

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Speaker 1: like a out of you know, a direct debit or

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Speaker 1: like a sin to link payment or to come out

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Speaker 1: so that it happens and then you're not sort of

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Speaker 1: worrying about it after the fact.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think it can be. And again, it

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Speaker 2: kind of depends on how it's set up. But it's

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Speaker 2: more of that big picture thinking around budgeting and financial counseling,

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Speaker 2: which is so important for people. You know. I think

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Speaker 2: for me, you know, I wake up in the morning.

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Speaker 2: I don't have too much to think about in my life.

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Speaker 2: It's just getting myself to work. But when you've got

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Speaker 2: someone who might have a big family, they've also got

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Speaker 2: visitors who are at the property, there's maybe some complexities

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Speaker 2: there around different areas of life, maybe domestic family violence.

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Speaker 2: You've got so much going on that I think remembering

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Speaker 2: to pay rent on time, or making sure that you're

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Speaker 2: budgeting adequately to leave money for rent can be a

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Speaker 2: really challenging thing. Some people we hear from our stakeholders,

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Speaker 2: particularly in the remote space, Aboriginal housing and Tea our

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Speaker 2: fellow peaks as some people are not even aware that

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Speaker 2: they have significant levels of rental debt, which is quite shocking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like again, I'm surprised that people aren't aware of that.

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Speaker 1: Are their notices sent out? Does the department notify people

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Speaker 1: when they are like to pay?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe so. But again it's complexities with human movement,

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Speaker 2: people moving around. You know, you've got people who speak

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Speaker 2: multiple languages, so there might be some issues with understanding that,

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Speaker 2: so I think there's probably multiple factors at play there,

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Speaker 2: But again, it's really about those referrals to tenancy support

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Speaker 2: programs early in the piece, rather than letting these tenants

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Speaker 2: get into a situation where they do have significant kind

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Speaker 2: of demerit points against them all significant levels of rental arrears.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is, we haven't been historically funded sufficiently

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Speaker 2: in the NT to have tenancy support programs that are

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Speaker 2: funded adequately. And the good news is that we do

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Speaker 2: have homelessness funding which is coming online in the NT

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Speaker 2: and should be hitting the ground quite soon in Dune

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Speaker 2: this year, which will mean that we can adequately fund

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Speaker 2: those programs. But it's important that those referrals are made

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Speaker 2: early rather than at the crisis point when it's kind

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Speaker 2: of too late.

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Speaker 1: And Annie, I know that you and I have spoken

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Speaker 1: before about this well quite some time ago with your

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Speaker 1: predeceasor as will Peter McMillan, about some of that federal

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Speaker 1: funding that's going to hit the ground. I mean, has

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Speaker 1: it hit the ground yet or is that the funding

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Speaker 1: that you're referring to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was federal government investment that the Northern

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Speaker 2: Territory government is matching dollar for dollar that was announced

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Speaker 2: in last year's federal budget. So it was about May

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Speaker 2: where we came in and we had a chat with you,

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Speaker 2: and it was a very exciting day because we went

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Speaker 2: from getting one point three percent of federal funding in

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Speaker 2: homelessness despite having twelve times the national rate of homelessness,

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Speaker 2: so we were severely disadvantaged here in the NT and

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Speaker 2: we got a sevenfold increase, so huge increase there. So

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Speaker 2: that money is under commissioning at the moment, so we

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Speaker 2: should be hearing very shortly in terms of how that's

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Speaker 2: going to be spent. But I'm sure some of that

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Speaker 2: is going to be on expanding tendency support programs because

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Speaker 2: that's that prevention piece. It's keeping people in housing, because

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Speaker 2: what we're doing, if we're evicting people into homelessness, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of just shifting the problem.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's going to be my next question. What do

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Speaker 1: you think could happen? I mean, if we are in

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Speaker 1: a situation where people are sort of moved out, do

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Speaker 1: you think it's going to create a greater issue with homelessness?

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Speaker 1: Are they're going to wind up on the street, what's

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Speaker 1: going to happen? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think it depends where we're looking at. I mean,

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Speaker 2: in the remote space, you're probably just going to see

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Speaker 2: increased levels of overcrowdings because people will just shift from

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Speaker 2: one property to the next. If you're talking about the

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Speaker 2: urban centers, you'll probably see that, but you'll also see

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Speaker 2: increased levels of rough sleeping. That's what I think is

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Speaker 2: very likely. And the interesting thing is we talk about

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Speaker 2: huge amounts of homelessness and the NTY A lot of

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Speaker 2: that is severe overcrowding. But even if you remove that

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Speaker 2: from the stats, we still have nine times the national

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Speaker 2: rate of rough sleeping here in the Northern Territory, so

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Speaker 2: it's really significant. So it's just kind of shifting the

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Speaker 2: problem to the streets, which isn't a solution. So evicting

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Speaker 2: people should really be the last resort. But at the

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Speaker 2: same time, if someone doesn't have capacity to manage their tendency,

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Speaker 2: the alternative shouldn't be homelessness, it should be really supporting

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Speaker 2: those people. Talking to the sector, what can the sector

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Speaker 2: do to step in and really wrap around services to

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Speaker 2: support people. Early on in the piece, and we get.

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Speaker 1: A lot of messages and calls to this show about

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Speaker 1: problem public housing tenants. You know, people contacting us about

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Speaker 1: fights on the street, large gatherings, music all hours, damage

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Speaker 1: to properties. It does seem as though something needs to

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Speaker 1: be done to try to really sort some of these

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Speaker 1: issues out, because it can be an absolute nightmare, even

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Speaker 1: for other public housing tenants that are living next door.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that's such a good point because,

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Speaker 2: like I said before, you know, public housing tenants want

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Speaker 2: to live in thriving communities as well. No one wants

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Speaker 2: to live next to a house that you know has

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Speaker 2: has complexities that are impacting on you and can't be solved.

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Speaker 2: You know, I wouldn't want to be in that situation either.

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Speaker 2: So I completely understand where listeners are coming from, and

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Speaker 2: so I I think it is about finding those solutions.

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Speaker 2: It's about building more housing as well so that we

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Speaker 2: don't have those issues with overcrowding, with visitor management, it's

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Speaker 2: about thinking innovatively when it comes to these new funds,

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Speaker 2: what can we do to make sure that we are

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Speaker 2: managing visitors in an innovative way, you know, maybe dealing

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Speaker 2: with the visitor management issues rather than taking a punitive

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Speaker 2: response to the tenant at the midst of this, who

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Speaker 2: might kind of be a victim in this situation. It's

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Speaker 2: also about looking at alternative models of social housing, like

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Speaker 2: community housing, which you know is growing here in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory, and you know across Australia we've got community

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Speaker 2: housing providers who manage twenty five percent of social housing

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Speaker 2: stock and they're really close to the community. They take

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Speaker 2: a mission based lens to social housing and they're really

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Speaker 2: successful when it comes to tendency management.

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Speaker 1: And look, you know, I think there is absolutely a

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Speaker 1: need for more public housing. I do think that there's

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Speaker 1: you know, like from what I'm hearing on the show,

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Speaker 1: people really want to see this bad behavior stamped out.

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Speaker 1: And you know, from what you've spoken about there there

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Speaker 1: are different ways that that can happen. But also I

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Speaker 1: mean I'm looking at the public housing weight times. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned this a little earlier on the show. For a

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Speaker 1: one bedroom unit, let's say in Darwin, Casarina eight to

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Speaker 1: ten years, and then if you're on the priority weight

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Speaker 1: list six to eight years, like we're talking people who

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Speaker 1: you know, it may be pensioners, it could be people

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Speaker 1: with a disability who you know, who need a home.

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Speaker 1: It could be a single mum fleeing domestic violence with children,

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Speaker 1: who needs you know, who needs a place eight to

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Speaker 1: ten years. Like when I first looked at that, I

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Speaker 1: was like, it's that years months, what kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: what are we talking here? And then yeah, years, yeah, and.

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Speaker 2: It's going up. We've got more people on that weight list.

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Speaker 2: I think there's about five thousand applicants as of yesterday,

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Speaker 2: it was the last time I checked, So five thousand

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Speaker 2: applicants across priority, across the across the general weight list,

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Speaker 2: across the ANT. So it's really really significant, and independent

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Speaker 2: modeling shows that we need close to fourteen and a

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Speaker 2: half thousand social and affordable homes by twenty thirty six

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Speaker 2: in the Northern Territory to really encompass population growth but

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Speaker 2: also deal with that wait list. So you know, we

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Speaker 2: really want to bring that down. And you're right, you

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Speaker 2: know there are families behind those numbers, and like you said,

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Speaker 2: those people could be pensioners. We know that we're seeing

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Speaker 2: the statistics of people over the age of fifty five

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Speaker 2: in homelessness increasing in the NT by a huge amount.

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Speaker 2: We've also got I think the young end of the

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Speaker 2: spectrum is really an important one to consider because fifty

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Speaker 2: percent of THENT homeless population is under the age of

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Speaker 2: twenty five. So what alternative models can we look at

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Speaker 2: that maybe aren't public housing that we can consider that

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Speaker 2: actually direct people away from the public housing system and

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Speaker 2: from a life of being in public house exactly. And

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Speaker 2: there are models specifically in the youth space, like the

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Speaker 2: Youth for Your model, which is a bricks and mortar

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Speaker 2: response where young people go and they live in a

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Speaker 2: Youth for You for two years and they're you know,

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Speaker 2: such positive outcomes. You've got over eighty percent exiting into

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Speaker 2: work and into stable housing and seventy two percent of

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Speaker 2: those exiting into private housing.

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Speaker 1: That's what you want, Like, they're the kind of success

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Speaker 1: stories you want. I mean, even this morning on the

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Speaker 1: week that was we had Josh Bergoyn and he was

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Speaker 1: talking about somebody in his electrod who'd reached you know,

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Speaker 1: who'd gone from being in public housing to purchasing that

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Speaker 1: public housing. Like that's the kind of thing that I

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Speaker 1: reckon is really aspirational that you do. I'd love to

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Speaker 1: see more of that happening in the Northern Territory if it's.

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Speaker 2: Possible, absolutely, And I think that's where our conversations need

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Speaker 2: to be headed. I think we're definitely always going to

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Speaker 2: need social and affordable housing because there are populations that

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Speaker 2: will need that and that's really important. And those numbers

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Speaker 2: show that we just need to bring more online. That's

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Speaker 2: that's not a point to argue in my mind. But

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Speaker 2: at the same time, yeah, we do need to look

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Speaker 2: at that housing continuum, make sure that there are options

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Speaker 2: for home ownership, particularly for Aboriginal people, and also really

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Speaker 2: focus i think on prevention of homelessness and that redirection

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Speaker 2: away from the service system.

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Speaker 1: Do we have many situations in remote communities where we

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Speaker 1: do have families that have been able to go from

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Speaker 1: you know, that social housing model or the public housing model,

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Speaker 1: to being able to purchase their own homes. Is that

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Speaker 1: an option for people in remote communities?

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Speaker 2: Look, I'm not too sure. Aboriginal Housing and Tea you know,

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Speaker 2: are probably the ones to ask about that. I know

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Speaker 2: that there has historically been an option for public housing

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Speaker 2: tenants to purchase a public housing property at a bit

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Speaker 2: of a discounted rate. So I'm not sure if that's

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Speaker 2: still actively promoted through the department, but it has certainly

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Speaker 2: been an option previously, and you see that work in

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Speaker 2: other jurisdictions as well. I know you know personally, that's

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Speaker 2: what my granddad did back in Queensland back in the day,

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Speaker 2: so you know that should be an option for people. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Or I mean even when I like where I

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Speaker 1: lived in Queensland, we bought an ex public house home

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Speaker 1: that you know, like so these sort of options and

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Speaker 1: we were like our family were you know, like it

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Speaker 1: was my sister in lawa and we were young. You know,

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Speaker 1: she was a baby, she's in her early twenties, and

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Speaker 1: it was much cheaper probably than what you're going to

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Speaker 1: find if you went into another you know, another area

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Speaker 1: and it maybe wasn't the best socioeconomic suburb, but it

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Speaker 1: was a fantastic option for her and for you know,

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Speaker 1: my brother and her and I to all live in

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Speaker 1: it was a fantastic thing.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think that needs to be a viable option.

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Speaker 2: I think we also need to make sure that we're

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Speaker 2: replacing them at the other side of the market. You know,

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Speaker 2: if we are taking social and affordable homes off the

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Speaker 2: off the market and we're putting them in the private space,

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Speaker 2: then we need to make sure we're also building me yes,

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Speaker 2: so that those wait lists can decrease.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And that is something that I guess over

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Speaker 1: the years we've maybe not seen happen as much as

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Speaker 1: what needs to happen is as some of those really

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Speaker 1: big complexes we've you know, we've you know, we've sort

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Speaker 1: of realized that they're maybe not the best option in

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Speaker 1: terms of everybody living in a massive complex. Replenishing and

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Speaker 1: replacing that stock then needs to happen.

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Speaker 2: Right absolutely, And we can look at mixed tenure developments,

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Speaker 2: which is you know, you might have a portion which

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Speaker 2: is social housing, some that's affordable and some that's private.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's really important for that community cohesion

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Speaker 2: and that works all over Australia. We've got some in

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Speaker 2: Darwin which we don't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's lovely to speak to you this morning, Annie.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time and sort of giving us

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Speaker 1: a bit of perspective in this space. Thank you, Thank you,