1
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,400
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

2
00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

3
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:09,960
Speaker 2: once answers.

4
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,360
Speaker 1: Now, girls will learn to be the label they're given.

5
00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,639
Speaker 1: And indeed, girls describe their role in a friendship group

6
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,319
Speaker 1: in terms of the label they were given. And now

7
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,239
Speaker 1: here's the stars of our show.

8
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 2: My mum and dad. Hello, I'm doctor Justin Colson. Here

9
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 2: with my wife Kylie were the parents of six daughters.

10
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,960
Speaker 2: I'm the author of six books about raising happy families

11
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,400
Speaker 2: and the founder of happy Families dot com dot au.

12
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,920
Speaker 2: Kylie really excited having a conversation today with an author

13
00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,280
Speaker 2: who has really done some some amazing work in helping

14
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,080
Speaker 2: parents to understand their daughters better.

15
00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,120
Speaker 3: We are talking with Madonna King today and her latest

16
00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,240
Speaker 3: book is called ten Ager.

17
00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,200
Speaker 2: I think this is the best title of any book ever.

18
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,680
Speaker 2: Like when I saw ten Ager, I thought was it?

19
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 3: It was a misspell.

20
00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 2: I loved being fourteen. I loved fathers and daughters because

21
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 2: they just say what the book is about. But ten Ager, I.

22
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,839
Speaker 3: Think we have one of those in our house.

23
00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,320
Speaker 2: We do so our fifth baby girl is a teenager

24
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,199
Speaker 2: right now. But Donna, we feel like we've been reading

25
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,000
Speaker 2: a book all about our little girl Oh.

26
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,160
Speaker 1: That's wonderful. I think.

27
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,400
Speaker 2: I think mostly I'm seeing a lot of her in

28
00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,120
Speaker 2: the pages. But something that stood out to me as

29
00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,400
Speaker 2: I've read your book is that there's there's so much,

30
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,760
Speaker 2: there's such a range of such such a diverse way

31
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,760
Speaker 2: of being ten, like no ten age or is the

32
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,760
Speaker 2: same as any other teenager in so many.

33
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,280
Speaker 1: Words that more than any other age I can think of,

34
00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 1: justin you know. And that's been made worse by the

35
00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 1: fact that several school principles said to me that there's

36
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,280
Speaker 1: almost a generation between an eighteen year old girl now

37
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,480
Speaker 1: and a ten year old girl. But some ten year

38
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,240
Speaker 1: olds describe their builder bear to me, many of them

39
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,520
Speaker 1: believe in Santa Claus. Others have a big sister who

40
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,040
Speaker 1: might be bisexual or that. One asked me, are you

41
00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 1: going to write a chapter on how you know when

42
00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,280
Speaker 1: you're like a boy and how do you know when

43
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,760
Speaker 1: they like you back? I still haven't worked that out,

44
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,200
Speaker 1: but I think they're sitting around the same lunch table,

45
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 1: and that makes it really tough for parents because of

46
00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,840
Speaker 1: the different stages of development at that age of ten.

47
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,920
Speaker 3: Madia, can you tell us a little bit about this

48
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,880
Speaker 3: book and what you found who.

49
00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 2: Did you talk to and where did this come from?

50
00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,400
Speaker 1: So at the heart of it is five hundred ten

51
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,520
Speaker 1: year old girls, because my aim is to get inside

52
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,800
Speaker 1: their minds so that they can tell us how we

53
00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,240
Speaker 1: might help them. And then once I'd done that, I

54
00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,960
Speaker 1: consulted sixteen hundred moms, four hundred dads, one hundred year

55
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,359
Speaker 1: five and six school teachers, and then dozens of school

56
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,800
Speaker 1: principals and school counselors and psychologists and the like. And

57
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,440
Speaker 1: my goal was to talk to the girls about the

58
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,399
Speaker 1: issues they saw of significance that perhaps they don't tell

59
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,000
Speaker 1: us about, and then to seek advice from experts on that.

60
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:04,079
Speaker 2: I'm surprised one of the biggest issues that ten year

61
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 2: old girls are experiencing, regardless of whether they're well and

62
00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 2: truly into puberty or whether it hasn't even begun yet

63
00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,560
Speaker 2: in any obvious ways. Obviously it starts very very young internally,

64
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,400
Speaker 2: even though it's not always outwardly obvious. But one thing

65
00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 2: that seems to affect every single ten year old girl

66
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,320
Speaker 2: is the quality of her friendships. Friends are the biggest

67
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 2: source of joy and the biggest source of concern for

68
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,800
Speaker 2: a ten year old. Would that be a fair assumption.

69
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:35,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that drive to fit in to find my group,

70
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,560
Speaker 1: I think are changing girls. It's keeping them awake at night.

71
00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 1: It's dictating how they think, how they dress, the opinions

72
00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 1: they have. And I think this is one of the

73
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,440
Speaker 1: really sad things because Carlie, you know, as a girl,

74
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:53,200
Speaker 1: female support is something for our generation has been so wonderful.

75
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's your heartbreaks when your best friend's heartbreaks.

76
00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 1: But our girls are seeing friendship a bit like a

77
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,320
Speaker 1: hot chocolate, something that's really fast and really delicious, and

78
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,960
Speaker 1: we know it's not. You know, one school principle said

79
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 1: to me, Tony Ridden from Saint Aiden's here in Brisbane,

80
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,400
Speaker 1: said to me that she didn't have a really good

81
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 1: friend until she first started at university. And we know

82
00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,919
Speaker 1: in a good friendship sometimes we have to forgive the

83
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,840
Speaker 1: misdemeanor when it's smaller than the friendship. And I think

84
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 1: our girls have no idea how to actually build a

85
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 1: friendship and cultivate it and to use forgiveness as part

86
00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:33,200
Speaker 1: of that toolkit.

87
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,560
Speaker 3: I'm wondering, Madonna, if you can share with us, what

88
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,280
Speaker 3: are some things that we can help our ten year

89
00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,120
Speaker 3: olds do so that they can actually start to develop

90
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,960
Speaker 3: those positive relationships recognizing, like you said, they take time,

91
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,159
Speaker 3: and sometimes we kind of just want to fall into

92
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,800
Speaker 3: place with our bestie, you know, on day one, and

93
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 3: it doesn't usually happen like that. So what's something that

94
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,520
Speaker 3: we can do as parents to kind of help support

95
00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 3: our ten ages in doing this.

96
00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,280
Speaker 1: I think that the smartphone has made this so much

97
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,960
Speaker 1: harder because even in brief lockdowns, schools are reporting girls

98
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,279
Speaker 1: have lost socialization skills. So one school said to me

99
00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,480
Speaker 1: that in year five and six they had to sit

100
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,520
Speaker 1: girls across the table and teach them again to look

101
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 1: at the girls they were talking to. I think friendship

102
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,920
Speaker 1: used to come fairly naturally because we didn't have that.

103
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,080
Speaker 1: We didn't have this marketing wallpaper of noise that these

104
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,640
Speaker 1: girls are faced with. And we have to fill their

105
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,159
Speaker 1: toolkit with the ability to be able to do two things.

106
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,400
Speaker 1: One is to be able to decide on their boundaries

107
00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,600
Speaker 1: in friendship. Will I accept this or will I not?

108
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,599
Speaker 1: Will I play this role or will I not? Will

109
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,480
Speaker 1: I change how much of me to fit in? And

110
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 1: what won't I do? And once our girls are clear

111
00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,480
Speaker 1: on those boundaries, we have to then give them the

112
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,640
Speaker 1: ability or the words to articulate that so that they

113
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,480
Speaker 1: can go and do that when they have to. And

114
00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 1: that doesn't come naturally, you know, as one person said

115
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,560
Speaker 1: to me, they have to practice that. We have to

116
00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,839
Speaker 1: role model it so that we can say, look, if

117
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 1: this happens, how would you handle it, what words would

118
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,680
Speaker 1: you use? Would you accept that behavior? Let's just go

119
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 1: through how that might work. And it seems so little,

120
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,720
Speaker 1: and it seems almost silly that we have to do that.

121
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 1: But my experience is that this issue of friendship is

122
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,920
Speaker 1: tearing our girls apart. It's making them, giving them an

123
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: inability to sleep at night. It's the first thing they

124
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,400
Speaker 1: wake up, and many of them aren't concentrating on their

125
00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,720
Speaker 1: schoolwork because they're worried about what is going to happen

126
00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 1: at lunchtime.

127
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,800
Speaker 2: It feels like this could be really good advice for

128
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,200
Speaker 2: adults as well. I know plenty of adult women who

129
00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 2: will say exactly the same thing. It starts young and

130
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 2: maybe even at some adult men.

131
00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,919
Speaker 1: Well, that's probably true. And one other thing that I

132
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,040
Speaker 1: think that we can do as adults is is not

133
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,880
Speaker 1: label our children. I had parents say all thoughts of

134
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,280
Speaker 1: things to me, like, you know, mine's the peacemaker. I

135
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,680
Speaker 1: have a messenger. I have a queen Bee. I don't

136
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 1: know why, but I think mine might be a mean girl.

137
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,720
Speaker 1: And every expert I spoke to said to me that

138
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 1: girls will learn to be the label they're given. And indeed,

139
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,360
Speaker 1: girls describe their role in a friendship group in terms

140
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,600
Speaker 1: of the label they were given. So let's not do

141
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,400
Speaker 1: that either, And it's easy to say, we've got to

142
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,760
Speaker 1: actually think about it so that we don't do it.

143
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,680
Speaker 3: One of the other things that really stood out to

144
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,400
Speaker 3: us as we worked our way through the book was

145
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,840
Speaker 3: this idea around bullying. It just blows my mind that

146
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:47,600
Speaker 3: our children are having to navigate this space and no

147
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,680
Speaker 3: longer is it face to face Madonna. We're also dealing with,

148
00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 3: you know, online bullying and they can't actually ever get

149
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 3: away from it. So what are some things that you

150
00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 3: discovered through your research in relation to bullying and these

151
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,360
Speaker 3: little ten year olds?

152
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,320
Speaker 1: Now, you know, I'm not sure there is any need

153
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,840
Speaker 1: for a ten year old to have a smartphone other

154
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 1: than for medical issues or communication issues that are out

155
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,680
Speaker 1: of the norm. But if the sixteen hundred months I

156
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,600
Speaker 1: serve are surveyed, fifty percent of them said they'd given

157
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 1: their child a smartphone, and particularly in Victoria, that was

158
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 1: as a result of lockdown, so she could stay in communication.

159
00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,760
Speaker 1: I think we need to delay introduction as long as

160
00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,360
Speaker 1: we can, and if we have introduced it, we need

161
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,040
Speaker 1: to set boundaries. And you guys know this, but this

162
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,200
Speaker 1: idea of deciding when it can be used too, they

163
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,600
Speaker 1: can be in contact that the privacy settings are at

164
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,760
Speaker 1: the top, the number of followers. We know there is

165
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,880
Speaker 1: software that allows you to turn it on and off,

166
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,080
Speaker 1: that it's available at this time and not that time.

167
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,080
Speaker 1: Let's use that to the best of our ability so

168
00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 1: that we teach our children how to use social media responsibly,

169
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,920
Speaker 1: rather than you know, hand them the keys of a

170
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,040
Speaker 1: car and say take it for a run.

171
00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,120
Speaker 2: Madonna so much in this conversation around friends, bullying and

172
00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,000
Speaker 2: getting relationships right. I wish we could explore that for

173
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 2: the rest of the conversation. But in your book there

174
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,520
Speaker 2: were a couple other surprises, and I want to talk

175
00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,160
Speaker 2: about those next. It's the Happy Families podcast.

176
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,840
Speaker 4: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

177
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,240
Speaker 4: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and donts

178
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 4: of Discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits

179
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 4: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at happy

180
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,160
Speaker 4: families dot com dot a you slash shop.

181
00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,440
Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

182
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,520
Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we

183
00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,640
Speaker 3: are talking with Madonna King about her latest book, Tenager.

184
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,800
Speaker 2: Something that I loved reading this book, and so I

185
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 2: can't be objective about a parenting book, Madonna, and I

186
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,640
Speaker 2: say that with the greatest of respect, but obviously, when

187
00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,800
Speaker 2: I'm reading a book about parenting, I've kind of read

188
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 2: all the research and I know what's going to come

189
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 2: up in the next chapter, and it's very hard for

190
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:01,600
Speaker 2: me to read it through the eyes of a parent

191
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 2: who doesn't have a PhD in psychology, because that's who

192
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,720
Speaker 2: I am and what I do. But what I loved

193
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,720
Speaker 2: about the book is number one, You've got so many

194
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,000
Speaker 2: voices and so many, so many ways of integrating a

195
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,679
Speaker 2: tremendous amount of information. But there was a specific chapter

196
00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,840
Speaker 2: that really stood out to me. And maybe it's just

197
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 2: me and one of my peculiarities, but this chapter was

198
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,560
Speaker 2: about girls and their participation in physical activity. You've just

199
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,360
Speaker 2: been talking about body image and how that's increasingly a

200
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 2: significant concern for our children from as young as five

201
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:34,920
Speaker 2: or six, let alone ten ages.

202
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:36,760
Speaker 4: And then you launch.

203
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 2: Into this chapter about girls and their participation in physical activity,

204
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,880
Speaker 2: not necessarily organized sport, but just their activity levels generally.

205
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,200
Speaker 2: Would you share what you've found there, because it just

206
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,679
Speaker 2: really it impacted me tremendously.

207
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,600
Speaker 1: So there's a couple of things. On one end. The

208
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 1: girls explained to me that often they stop, particularly dancing

209
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: and swimming around this age. Teachers report that they double

210
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,080
Speaker 1: tog for swimming. I remember, jen, one little girl said

211
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,080
Speaker 1: to me. Our dancing was something I did when I

212
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 1: was young, like nine. She's now ten. They all of

213
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 1: a sudden have to wear tight clothes and lea tas

214
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,200
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they're embarrassed about it, and

215
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:21,200
Speaker 1: many of them stopped because it became competitive too. But

216
00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,920
Speaker 1: there was an interesting research that looked at a ten

217
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,720
Speaker 1: year old sixteen years ago and a ten year old now.

218
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 2: And this is what got me. This is the bit

219
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 2: that I thought was amazing. Sorry to interrupt, but I

220
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 2: just sad, be sad. Yeah, big exclamation mark about what

221
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:35,800
Speaker 2: you're about to say.

222
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was done in the UK. But the

223
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,600
Speaker 1: bigger differences are shown between girls and boys in Australia

224
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 1: in the same age couphoord. So this doctor Gavin Sandercock,

225
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,439
Speaker 1: surveyed all these children at the same school year on

226
00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,120
Speaker 1: year on year on year, and what he's found over

227
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,240
Speaker 1: sixteen years is a massive change in a girl's fitness level.

228
00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,400
Speaker 1: For example, a peach test, which requires absolutely no skill,

229
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,360
Speaker 1: just peaching something, girls are fifteen percent weaker than they

230
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 1: were sixteen years ago. In timed activity like a sit up,

231
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 1: they are forty five percent slower. But what really got

232
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,720
Speaker 1: me in the guts is they asked them to hang

233
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,640
Speaker 1: from monkey bars and swing essentially, and sixteen years ago

234
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:26,240
Speaker 1: everyone tried that activity. This time thirty percent said no,

235
00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: and when he asked why, they said they couldn't. Now,

236
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,439
Speaker 1: justin that is an indication of that infrastructure disappearing from

237
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,560
Speaker 1: our public parks and our school grounds and as a

238
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,680
Speaker 1: result of that, our girls I think are really suffering.

239
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,080
Speaker 1: And I say girls because while that survey showed no

240
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 1: real difference between boys and girls, surveys by ANU and

241
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 1: Camberra University have shown quite a significance difference between boys

242
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: and girls at this age, with girls taking two thousand

243
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: steps less, having poorer respiratory health, being less involved in

244
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 1: sport from around this age, and it's not part of

245
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 1: our debate in this area, and given your lead in

246
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,679
Speaker 1: on body image, it really needs to be. We need

247
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,800
Speaker 1: to talk to girls about how their body works, not

248
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,640
Speaker 1: what it looks like. And I've found that just heartbreaking

249
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 1: that the age of ten girls are worried about wearing togs,

250
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 1: you know, or dance costumes, and the reasons behind that

251
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 1: worry should cause alarm amongst all of us.

252
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,080
Speaker 2: Madonna. We have recently in the last few months, and

253
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:35,720
Speaker 2: we've mentioned it on the podcast a couple of times,

254
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,200
Speaker 2: our ten ager has started running with me in the mornings.

255
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,360
Speaker 2: I've kind of given up my bike riding as much

256
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,120
Speaker 2: as I live for my time on my bike, because

257
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,920
Speaker 2: my teenager wants to be active and physical with her dad,

258
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 2: and that means no more bike riding. But we go

259
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 2: for a run a few mornings a week so that

260
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 2: she can get that physical activity in and move her body.

261
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,560
Speaker 2: And reading that chapter just I think it really underscored

262
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,960
Speaker 2: the importance of it, so much so that we've started

263
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,760
Speaker 2: running past the park and hanging off the monkey bars

264
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:06,880
Speaker 2: just to see if we can go a little bit

265
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 2: further and a little bit longer, and.

266
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,720
Speaker 1: Good on you because, as you know, but I think

267
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 1: a lot of dads don't. The power of a dad

268
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,400
Speaker 1: is just so important, and we found it was a

269
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,400
Speaker 1: silver lining in COVID and Lockdown that so many girls

270
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,480
Speaker 1: spent more time with dad, and I hope that continues

271
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 1: into the future.

272
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,160
Speaker 3: Madonna, I have five rapid fire questions for you that

273
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,040
Speaker 3: I'd love to just tap into some of the little

274
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 3: nuances that you discovered as you researched this book.

275
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:40,440
Speaker 1: But this sounds a bit like an exam.

276
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,000
Speaker 3: Well, I am glad that you're in the hot seat

277
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 3: and not me. I've got the questions in front of me,

278
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 3: but I'm sure that we're going to be delighted by

279
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,200
Speaker 3: some of the answers. So Number one, what was the

280
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,000
Speaker 3: most delightful thing you heard from a ten year old?

281
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,280
Speaker 1: How they describe themselves before that self confidence faults. They

282
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 1: describe themselves sweet and kind. My favorite was a girl

283
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,120
Speaker 1: who said, Madonna, I am a friendship magnet. And I

284
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,200
Speaker 1: think you know that was the most delightful thing. The

285
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 1: challenge is keeping that self confidence beyond ten.

286
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, what concerned you the most?

287
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,320
Speaker 1: I think the ceiling our girls put on their potential too.

288
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 1: Many nine and ten year olds said to me, I'm

289
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,920
Speaker 1: not a maths scholar, I'm not a science girl. When

290
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,520
Speaker 1: euroscientists say at ten, how do they know what type

291
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,600
Speaker 1: of girl they're going to be? And I think they

292
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,480
Speaker 1: take on the messages of those around them, and they're

293
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 1: feeling pressure from parents, from teachers, but mainly themselves. They

294
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 1: see in their little group that their marks are lower

295
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 1: than the others, and they make that decision then that

296
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,160
Speaker 1: they're not going to excel, particularly at areas like maths

297
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,040
Speaker 1: and science. And in talking to principles of co ed schools,

298
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,400
Speaker 1: it's not something that boys do. Boys see it as

299
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 1: a mark on the page. They don't take marks personally,

300
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 1: where girls think this is a reflection on me, and

301
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,280
Speaker 1: that develops a negative mindset and I just I find

302
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,360
Speaker 1: that heartbreaking me too.

303
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:10,760
Speaker 2: That makes me sad.

304
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,480
Speaker 3: Number three, what gives you the most hope for these

305
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:15,240
Speaker 3: ten year olds?

306
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,640
Speaker 1: That they are so much more articulate that I could

307
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 1: ever be at this age. That social media, for all

308
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 1: its drawbacks, has certainly helped educate and provide an equality

309
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,360
Speaker 1: of education amongst them. And I think if we can

310
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,840
Speaker 1: just get them to use that voice and to run

311
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:38,160
Speaker 1: their own race. They will be the most fab generation

312
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,200
Speaker 1: of adults. We could imagine number four.

313
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,800
Speaker 3: If there was one thing you want parents to know

314
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,600
Speaker 3: about their ten year old based on your research, what

315
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:47,280
Speaker 3: would it be.

316
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,160
Speaker 1: I asked the five hundred girls, what do they want

317
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,320
Speaker 1: from mum and what do they want from dad? And

318
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,480
Speaker 1: it boils down to time with them and their touch,

319
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 1: the hug, the arm around the shoulders, the comfort, the

320
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 1: being there. And you know the funny thing, Kylie, is

321
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,240
Speaker 1: those two things cost nothing. Time and touch, and from

322
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 1: every expert I spoke to, they're the two things that

323
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,639
Speaker 1: not only will change the trajectory of our girls tomorrow,

324
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,119
Speaker 1: but also into the future.

325
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 2: You've got Kylie crying as you're sitting there.

326
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 1: Literally.

327
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,479
Speaker 3: What I love about that Ants and Madonna is just

328
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,960
Speaker 3: this acknowledgment. You know, we watch our children as they

329
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,680
Speaker 3: start to kind of grow up, and all of a sudden,

330
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,679
Speaker 3: they get to this point where they're too big for

331
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 3: that hug and that touch, and yet you've just kind

332
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 3: of opened up this beautiful space where you're acknowledging that

333
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 3: as a ten year old, that's what they still want.

334
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,320
Speaker 3: And I just love that.

335
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 2: Even when I write my book about teenage girls. They

336
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,200
Speaker 2: still want it even when they're sixteen and eighteen. They

337
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 2: still love it, especially from dads who actually back away.

338
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 1: But the thing is they don't often ask that's right,

339
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 1: my parents. We've got to actually take the lead there,

340
00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and anyone can do it. You know,

341
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,560
Speaker 1: time does not cost us when it's our child.

342
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,840
Speaker 3: Number five, lucky. Last question, what's next? You've written about

343
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 3: being fourteen, you've written about fathers and daughters and now

344
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,560
Speaker 3: ten agers. But what's next on your agenda?

345
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,119
Speaker 1: Well, my daughters would say to stop writing periting books.

346
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 2: I'm in that with you as well.

347
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, Michael. I'm a journalist, and my goal

348
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,720
Speaker 1: is never to be to pretend I'm a psychologist or

349
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,159
Speaker 1: an educator. I have a passion for journalism and that

350
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,719
Speaker 1: ability to get inside a ten year old's mind and

351
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,240
Speaker 1: for her to be able to explain something that she

352
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,919
Speaker 1: might find hard to explain to our parents, and to

353
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,439
Speaker 1: put that in a book is something that, you know,

354
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,560
Speaker 1: I'm just really proud of, and my goal is that

355
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,320
Speaker 1: it hopes our girls and their parents.

356
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 2: Madonna, it's just been such a delight to talk with you.

357
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,160
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time pleasure. Madonna King

358
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,360
Speaker 2: is the author of the brand new book Tenager, as

359
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,399
Speaker 2: well as being fourteen and Fathers and Daughters, an award

360
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,199
Speaker 2: winning journalist and mum to a couple of girls herself,

361
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,919
Speaker 2: and just an all round great person. It's been wonderful

362
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 2: to talk to you and Donna, we hope that you've

363
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,400
Speaker 2: enjoyed the conversation about ten Ages. If you enjoy the podcast,

364
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,239
Speaker 2: please lead a rating and review wherever you get your

365
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,480
Speaker 2: podcasts so that more people can find out about it

366
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,280
Speaker 2: and make their families happier. As always, we really appreciate

367
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: the work of Justin Rulan from Bridge Media for making

368
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 2: the podcast sound great, and our executive producer is Craig Bruce.

369
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 2: If you'd like more information about making your family happier,

370
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 2: visit happy families dot com dot au.