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Speaker 1: Just a quick warning before we start that this episode

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Speaker 1: contains content that some may find distressing. If you or

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Speaker 1: anyone you know needs help in contact Lifeline on thirteen

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Speaker 1: eleven fourteen. Growing up, Yaz London was a champion swimmer.

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Speaker 1: She then swapped the pool for the police force, but

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Speaker 1: an encounter with a young girl while working as an

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Speaker 1: officer changed London's life forever and encouraged her to become

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Speaker 1: a digital safety advocate. Jazz now works with businesses and

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Speaker 1: schools to equip young people with digital skills. She also

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Speaker 1: specializes in developing first movers, individuals who step up and

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Speaker 1: set new standards, and believes female athletes already have all

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Speaker 1: the skills they need to become them. Thanks for pressing

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Speaker 1: play on today's episode, my name is Sophie and I'm

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Speaker 1: the producer here at the Female Athlete Project. This week,

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Speaker 1: Chloe sits down with Yazz London to pick her brain

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Speaker 1: about what sportswomen need to know about digital safety in

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Speaker 1: order to build their personal brands safely. Yazz shares if

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Speaker 1: sporting organizations are doing enough, what software athletes can utilize

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Speaker 1: to become safer online, and why the solution isn't just

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Speaker 1: getting off social media altogether.

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Speaker 2: We hope you enjoyed this episode.

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Speaker 3: Yas London, Welcome to the Female Athlete Project.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. So good to be here.

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Speaker 4: I'm a little bit of a fan, I have to say. Ever,

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Speaker 4: it's really kind of wild to be here.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm really looking forward to chatting and we had

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Speaker 3: a good catch up a couple of months ago. Now, yeah,

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Speaker 3: chat about some of the work you do. And you're

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Speaker 3: also very giving with your knowledge and expertise and wisdom

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Speaker 3: for me entering this next phase as well. So I'm

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Speaker 3: very thankful for that as well.

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Speaker 2: Always welcome.

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Speaker 4: I love doing what I can, I guess to make

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Speaker 4: sure that women succeed.

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Speaker 2: I mean I love that.

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Speaker 4: I can't say that I do it for every single person,

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Speaker 4: but you know where I can absolutely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Love that. Take us back to the start. Can

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Speaker 3: you describe yourself as a little.

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Speaker 2: Key, as a little kid. Well, I was an eldest child.

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Speaker 2: I was the first.

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Speaker 4: Grandchild out of a quite a large family of women.

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Speaker 4: And when I say that, I think we're up to

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Speaker 4: my cousin's just had a baby and which is number.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen straight girls like we don't have.

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Speaker 4: Very So I was raised by very strong women. So

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Speaker 4: it's no surprise, you know that I've kind of in

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Speaker 4: this industry and who I am. But as a kid,

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Speaker 4: pretty feisty, pretty determined, very impatient, that's not changed. I

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Speaker 4: was the kid that jumped off the garage roof into

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Speaker 4: the pool after being told not to do it fifteen times, got.

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Speaker 2: Bored easily, kind of.

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Speaker 4: I think my auntie, who was right into sort of astrology,

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Speaker 4: used to call me an indigo child, which I'd never

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Speaker 4: heard of that before, but it is, I guess, a

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Speaker 4: description for a difficult kid, a kind of pseudo scientific

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Speaker 4: way of describing, you know, a kid that's a little

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Speaker 4: bit tricky to manage because they are so like bulletigate.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I had a great childhood. I grew up

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Speaker 4: in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, Lots of sport, lots

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Speaker 4: of fun people around me all the time. Extroverted family

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Speaker 4: kind of paints a picture.

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Speaker 3: Where where did the love for sport first come from?

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Speaker 4: I think it's always been in me. I guess I've

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Speaker 4: always loved being physically active. But if I look back,

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Speaker 4: you know, my grandfather on my dad's side was a swimmer,

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Speaker 4: My grandmother was a diver, and a dancer. On the

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Speaker 4: other side, my dad was a champion golfer, So it's

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Speaker 4: always been a big part of it. You know, the

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Speaker 4: roosters are always on in our house, so I learned

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Speaker 4: a bit about football as a young kid. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think it's always been a part of my life.

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Speaker 4: I think partly because I was good at it, partly

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Speaker 4: because I found it really fun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and swimming. When did swimming first come into the picture.

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Speaker 4: Swimming came into the picture probably around ten years old.

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Speaker 4: And again that sort of it's interesting when I describe myself,

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Speaker 4: I guess as a kid that got bored easily, because

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Speaker 4: that's what sort of led me to the swimming pool.

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Speaker 4: One day when I was bored and I went with

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Speaker 4: my neighbor who was sort of going to swimming lessons

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Speaker 4: or swimming training for the first time and invited me,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, well, I don't have anything else

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Speaker 4: to do, I'll go, mum. And then I just sort

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Speaker 4: of had a bit of a knack for it. I

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Speaker 4: thought it was fun at first, but then obviously had

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Speaker 4: a little bit of a natural skill and kept going

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Speaker 4: back and kept going back, and really loved the discipline

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Speaker 4: of it all and the training and.

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Speaker 2: Then as soon as I started seeing results, So it

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Speaker 2: was really.

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Speaker 3: Pretty fair enough for someone who goes bored easily staring

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Speaker 3: at a black line. That doesn't make a lot of

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Speaker 3: sense to me. But is that side of your personality

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Speaker 3: where you have that drive and discipline and desire to

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Speaker 3: be really good at something?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I love to win.

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Speaker 4: I think that's just innate sometimes, and my wife would say,

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Speaker 4: you know, my level of focus can sometimes you know,

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Speaker 4: go into excess, and I am.

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Speaker 2: Acutely aware of that.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I guess I enjoyed being good at something

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Speaker 4: and I enjoyed seeing results. So when I put in

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Speaker 4: the hard work and the sacrifice, seeing the results that

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Speaker 4: came out of that and sort of what it did

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Speaker 4: for my growth and development and my sort of ability

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Speaker 4: to participate, and then you know, things like travel with

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Speaker 4: sports started to come. So it was really exciting, and

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Speaker 4: you know, I had to sort of manage that with

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Speaker 4: school and the rest of what goes with the teenage years,

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Speaker 4: I guess, which was challenging at times. But I just

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Speaker 4: loved swimming, and it was swimming up and down that

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Speaker 4: black line. But we had a team, we had a group,

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Speaker 4: we had our squads, So it was still fun. Although

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Speaker 4: I had to do a presentation recently and actually like

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Speaker 4: tally up how.

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Speaker 2: Far I'd swum, oh wow.

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Speaker 4: Over sort of the seven years six or seven years

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Speaker 4: from when I first started to when I finished, and

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Speaker 4: I worked it out to be about twenty four thousand kilometers,

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Speaker 4: which is a bit gross, equivalent to swimming halfway around

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Speaker 4: the world. So that's what we did back then. I

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Speaker 4: don't even know what they do now in terms.

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Speaker 3: Of I can't imagine an Arnie like what heard tally

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Speaker 3: would be up to. Crazy.

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Speaker 4: Wow, they swim for longer now, right, Like I retired

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Speaker 4: from swimming when I finished school like eighteen, you know,

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Speaker 4: and that was about it for me because there wasn't

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Speaker 4: really a career in anything that I could really aspire

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Speaker 4: to that was going to give me, you know, longevity

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Speaker 4: there whereas now there's options, which is fantastic for all

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Speaker 4: the swimmers. But yeah, pretty crazy when you think about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, ended up in the police force. Was that something

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Speaker 3: that you always had in your mind as a career option?

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Speaker 4: No, I was just like a little bit obsessed with

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Speaker 4: Dana Scully when I was ex iles, was like my

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Speaker 4: ultimate so might have been my first girl crush, I

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Speaker 4: have to say, so, No, I didn't ever expect to

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Speaker 4: get into the police force, but I actually wanted to

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Speaker 4: be a journalists. That was sort of where I wanted

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Speaker 4: to go, and I ended up doing, you know, a

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Speaker 4: diploma in journalism, and I went overseas and randomly found

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Speaker 4: myself working in television production and that was kind of

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Speaker 4: a bit of a wild gap year. And when I

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Speaker 4: was over there, the guy that I was living with,

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Speaker 4: his sister was a cop in the Edmonton Royal Canadian

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Speaker 4: Mounted Police Force, and she invited me one day to

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Speaker 4: go on a ride along with her, which was like, wow,

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Speaker 4: that would never happen in Australia.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the rules around.

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Speaker 4: I know. But I was in the back of her

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Speaker 4: police car rocking around as a twenty one year old

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Speaker 4: walking into these like domestics and standing in the corner

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Speaker 4: like trying to stay out of the way.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how she let it happen, but that's

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Speaker 2: TV show, That's what I always.

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Speaker 4: I was basically like that, you know, the cameraman or

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Speaker 4: the producer that would be hanging around should have actually

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Speaker 4: thought about that. But yeah, and it was just like

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Speaker 4: such a wild night and so exciting and full of adrenaline,

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Speaker 4: and I guess, being a bit of an adrenaline junkie,

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Speaker 4: I thought it was really fun and I also loved

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Speaker 4: that it wasn't It was a career that you could,

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Speaker 4: I guess, do a whole range of different things. You

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Speaker 4: weren't sort of stuck in the same exact job, and

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Speaker 4: you were out there being physical. You weren't stuck behind

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Speaker 4: a desk school day. And that really appealed to me,

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Speaker 4: alongside helping people.

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Speaker 2: And doing good in the community.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I came back and signed up and ended

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Speaker 4: up down in Goldburn in the police Academy in two

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Speaker 4: thousand and six.

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Speaker 3: And what did your career progression look like once you

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Speaker 3: were in the police force?

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Speaker 4: Being bored easily? I did lots of different things. So

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Speaker 4: I had to do the first three years of general

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Speaker 4: duties like everybody else does. And I was posted to

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Speaker 4: Newtown Police Station in the Inner West, which was a

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Speaker 4: really great learning station.

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Speaker 3: I'd fee a lot of different things going on in there.

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Speaker 4: It was wild really like we had you know, the hospital,

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Speaker 4: we had Missenden Road which had a lot of method

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Speaker 4: owned clinics. We had a lot of railway stations, and

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Speaker 4: things where people were coming into the command, so there

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Speaker 4: was a lot of different types of crime to deal with. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, I had a homicide I was involved in

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Speaker 4: in the first few months of my career.

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Speaker 2: I had to draw my gun.

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Speaker 4: Within the first six weeks of being a probationary constable,

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Speaker 4: which was pretty intense. So I worked there, did some

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Speaker 4: undercover work, which was a bit wild because my short

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Speaker 4: hair always made me quite recognizable, so that was interesting.

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Speaker 2: And then I worked in.

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Speaker 4: A range of other sort of roles, corporate comms, youth work,

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Speaker 4: which is where I probably spent the majority of my service.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I loved the ability to sort of chop

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Speaker 4: and change and do different things.

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Speaker 2: And build skills. I guess around that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and where did your passion for digital safety come from?

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Speaker 4: That came from, I guess a not so great incident

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Speaker 4: that I dealt with in twenty twelve when I was

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Speaker 4: a youth LIAI as an officer, I worked at Rose

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Speaker 4: Bay Local Area Command, and that has a very infamous

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Speaker 4: suicide hot spot called the Gap in it which is

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Speaker 4: a ninety six meter high cliff top, and as an

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Speaker 4: officer there, I was probably up at the Gap sometimes

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Speaker 4: several times a week, sometimes several times a shift, depending

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Speaker 4: on the time of year. Unfortunately, you know, Summer, Christmas,

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Speaker 4: things like that, they're really challenging times for.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people.

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Speaker 4: And I ended up up at the gap with a

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Speaker 4: suicide negotiation happening with a fourteen year old girl. And

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Speaker 4: when I sort of got up there and started talking

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Speaker 4: to her about what had happened and what had brought

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Speaker 4: her there, she described a cyber bullying incident happening at

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Speaker 4: her school. And I hadn't really heard much about social media,

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Speaker 4: like I think face was around a bit.

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Speaker 2: Instagram, I've been around.

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Speaker 4: For about two years, and she said someone had taken

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Speaker 4: a photograph of her in class and had uploaded it

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Speaker 4: to Instagram, and people had just criticized her and told

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Speaker 4: her that she was fat and ugly and worthless. And

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Speaker 4: someone at the end of that thread I never forget

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Speaker 4: her saying this to me, said why don't you go

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Speaker 4: and drink bleach and kill yourself? And I just couldn't

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Speaker 4: believe in that moment that this was a situation that

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Speaker 4: brought this young girl to a literal cliff top where

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Speaker 4: she was considering whether her life was worth living, and

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Speaker 4: the real world impact that that had on her, and

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Speaker 4: I think that just changed things for me. You know,

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Speaker 4: we were thinking about having kids in a couple of years,

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Speaker 4: and I just put myself in the position of her

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Speaker 4: parents and her family, and I just couldn't let that happen.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's happened obviously since, But I wanted to

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Speaker 4: try and have an impact, I guess in that space,

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Speaker 4: to try and help kids and to help people with

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Speaker 4: this you know, online environment that was obviously having significant

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Speaker 4: negative impacts on them. So I started a business educating

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Speaker 4: in schools alongside my police work. I started a non

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Speaker 4: for profit called Realize, which helped kids tell stories of

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Speaker 4: what they were experiencing in their lives through pocket filmmaking,

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Speaker 4: so using a mobile phone as a tool for good

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Speaker 4: rather than for a negative sort of outcome. And then

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Speaker 4: it slowly kind of grew to a point where I

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Speaker 4: had to make a choice, and so I stepped away

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Speaker 4: from the police into the online safety world full time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and how does that work that you do? Now?

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Speaker 3: How does that intersect with sport for you? Like, we

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Speaker 3: know how huge the online space is for athletes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's huge. I think I guess I've started to

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Speaker 4: come back into sport a little bit. You know, I

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Speaker 4: obviously left in my after my swimming career finished, needed

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Speaker 4: to sort of find different focuses. And I think many

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Speaker 4: of us as athletes do go through that phase of

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Speaker 4: needing to find out who you are without that label

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Speaker 4: of sport. But I missed sport in my life, and

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Speaker 4: I started to realize a lot around the time of

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Speaker 4: the Matilda Fever, the Matilda Effect, the World Cup, the

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Speaker 4: impact that online abuse was having on athletes, and in

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Speaker 4: particular female athletes. And you know, from the experiences that

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Speaker 4: I'd had and the knowledge of what this world can

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Speaker 4: do to people's self esteem and their self worth, let

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Speaker 4: alone their well being and their performance in critical times,

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Speaker 4: I started to investigate it a little bit more and

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Speaker 4: I've sort of uncovered through research and through a lot

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Speaker 4: of the studies, I guess that I've had a look

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Speaker 4: at the real world impact that this is having on

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Speaker 4: our athletes, and I want to build awareness and advocacy

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Speaker 4: for organizations to start paying more attention to this because

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Speaker 4: the online world, you know, they're not just platforms, their places,

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Speaker 4: and these places hurt people, and the more high profile

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Speaker 4: and public facing you are the worst.

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Speaker 2: That sort of abuse gets.

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Speaker 4: And you know we've seen it with stars like alone

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Speaker 4: O Mar. You know, she's amazing and so brave and

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Speaker 4: courageous and articulate and confident, but you know, you look

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Speaker 4: at some of the posts that she receives, the comments

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Speaker 4: that she receives, and even that for someone so strong,

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Speaker 4: how it can really break her spirit at times?

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Speaker 2: It's not okay, we need to be doing more about it.

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Speaker 3: And you touched on some of the research and data

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Speaker 3: that you're across in your line of work. Are there

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Speaker 3: only key kind of stats or figures that are ones

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Speaker 3: that have stuck with you?

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess the key piece of research in recent

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Speaker 4: times in Australia has been done by Deacon University. And

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Speaker 4: what I want to preface before this is saying that

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Speaker 4: there's not enough investment in research in this area, right,

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Speaker 4: so we're really limited in what we're looking at. But

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Speaker 4: they said that I believe it was eighty seven percent

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Speaker 4: of the athletes that they interviewed, and it was a

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Speaker 4: relatively small sample size, about one hundred and forty athletes thereabouts,

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Speaker 4: eighty seven percent had experienced severe gender based sexual harassment online.

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Speaker 4: Eighty three percent of them said that it impacted their

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Speaker 4: well being. Sixty three percent of them said that it

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Speaker 4: impacted their sense of safety. And you know, if you

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Speaker 4: put yourself in the place of an athlete who's got

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Speaker 4: to perform, you know, they're checking their phones, they're checking

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Speaker 4: their messages right before they run out onto a field

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Speaker 4: or swim in a race or whatever that might be.

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Speaker 4: We can't ignore that those sorts of comments that will

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Speaker 4: impact their performance and their wellbeing. And I guess the

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Speaker 4: really big one was that out of all of those

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Speaker 4: people that had those experiences, eighty percent so that they

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Speaker 4: weren't satisfied with the outcome, that they felt like there wasn't,

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Speaker 4: you know, much recourse. There wasn't a lot of aten

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Speaker 4: that was given that they feared retaliation by their sport

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Speaker 4: or not being taken seriously, or that it was just

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Speaker 4: a bit hopeless.

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Speaker 2: So why should we report?

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Speaker 4: And when it comes to I guess the e Safety Commissioner,

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Speaker 4: our overarching government body that has the ability to issue

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Speaker 4: takedown notices for certain types of content, to intervene to

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Speaker 4: help athletes, only about six percent of them even knew

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Speaker 4: it existed. So there's a massive education gap at a

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Speaker 4: base level for what help is available.

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Speaker 2: For athletes going through this.

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Speaker 3: I want to chat to you Neicks about kind of

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Speaker 3: breaking down probably the different layers of solutions and ways

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Speaker 3: to address it. But when you heard the numbers of

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Speaker 3: that Deacon study, were you surprised?

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Speaker 4: Not really, Yeah, no, because I mean my observations of

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Speaker 4: it is that there's not a lot of investment in

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Speaker 4: this space yet. There's not a lot of awareness yet

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Speaker 4: around what can be done, and I think the really

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Speaker 4: important takeaways there's a lot that can be done. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's a fantastic tool at technology that I partner with

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Speaker 4: called Social Protect, which you know, we'll talk about later,

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Speaker 4: I guess, but there's a lot of organizations that are

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Speaker 4: already using that, and Social protect essentially attaches itself to

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Speaker 4: social media profiles of anyone but let's say athletes, and

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Speaker 4: removes hateful content in real time so they're not actually

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Speaker 4: exposed to it at all. If there's an issue, that

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Speaker 4: content is actually put into a quarantine zone. So let's say,

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Speaker 4: for example, we've got a particularly bad abuser or stalk

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Speaker 4: or a thing start to escalate and you know, maybe

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Speaker 4: the police need to be involved. That information is stored

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Speaker 4: as evidence and is able to be retrieved by that

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Speaker 4: person should the need arise, so they're not exposed to it.

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Speaker 4: They're not seeing it right before they run that race

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Speaker 4: or go out onto the field, but if it does

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Speaker 4: get really bad, it's there and it's successible for them

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Speaker 4: to access if they need to.

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Speaker 3: And how does that differ from like say, with the

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Speaker 3: female earthete proaching on Instagram. I've put like all the

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Speaker 3: keywords in right to try and like protect us from

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Speaker 3: the trolls who say really harmful things, misogynistic things, homophobic

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Speaker 3: things like there's some really horrible things that obviously a

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Speaker 3: lot of people come across in that social space. How

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Speaker 3: does the AI software differ from just having those kind

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Speaker 3: of standard keywords.

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Speaker 4: It can get complicated in terms of the tech, but

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Speaker 4: the keywords, I guess a lot. A lot of the

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Speaker 4: filtering if you're looking at different profiles in social media,

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Speaker 4: is I guess, filtered by the individual platforms. If we

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Speaker 4: open up the conversation of what they're doing or not doing,

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Speaker 4: you know, they're definitely not doing enough to try and

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Speaker 4: safeguard people. In fact, they're rolling back their safeguarding and

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Speaker 4: their content moderation. You know, that was another reason I guess.

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Speaker 4: Earlier this year I became you know, particularly vocal and

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Speaker 4: passionate about this because we started to see you know,

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Speaker 4: the tech bros, the broligarchy all, you know, start to

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Speaker 4: kiss the trump ring. As I say, so, you know

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Speaker 4: when we're rolling back sense, you know, rolling back safeguards,

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Speaker 4: and the reason being to you know, ensure that we've

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Speaker 4: got free speech, which is of course important on those platforms,

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Speaker 4: but we're prepared to let people be hurt to facilitate that.

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Speaker 4: Then that's a big problem. So yeah, can we rely

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Speaker 4: on them to do the right thing to make sure

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Speaker 4: that those keywords are actually working? No whereas when we

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Speaker 4: look at something like Social protect it's using AI to

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Speaker 4: detect those keywords. You can enter those keywords again into

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Speaker 4: a list of words that you don't want to see.

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Speaker 4: And I think the other thing is a lot of

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Speaker 4: the time you can enter in words that might have

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Speaker 4: a I guess, a dual meaning. So you know, trolls

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Speaker 4: will use words that will be bypassed by youtubel filters.

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Speaker 4: But obviously it all start to impact a person you know,

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Speaker 4: who understands the true message behind that, So it is

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Speaker 4: more effective in that way. I don't think anything is

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Speaker 4: absolutely full proof, don't get me wrong. And my recommendation

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Speaker 4: would be to use both, right, it's layering. Use the

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Speaker 4: platform tools, the safeguarding tools, but use other technology that's

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Speaker 4: going to actually help when there are gaps.

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Speaker 3: And Rugby Australia just recently announced that they've signed on

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Speaker 3: with Social Protect. Are they kind of leading the way

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Speaker 3: in that space from what you've seen if we look

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Speaker 3: at Australia as an example in terms of the sporting bodies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 4: I think what's great about that deal is that they're

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Speaker 4: looking after the entire ecosystem. Right, It's not just the

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Speaker 4: top end players, it's grassroots players, it's officials, administrators, coaches, volunteers,

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Speaker 4: things like that have all been encompassed in this deal.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, they really are leading the way. I think,

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Speaker 4: you know, almost a Social Protect point of view, there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of deals that they've made in the US

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Speaker 4: and the UK. I know that they look after a

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Speaker 4: lot of the NFL teams and the basketball teams and

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Speaker 4: the football teams in those countries, but this is sort

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Speaker 4: of an Australian first and it's really great to see

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Speaker 4: Rugby taking it as seriously as they are and investing

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Speaker 4: in that proactive approach because that's what we really need.

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Speaker 3: And if we look at some of the other sports,

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Speaker 3: without obviously pointing out specific sporting bodies, but do you

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Speaker 3: think that enough is being done across the board to

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Speaker 3: protect athletes and probably filtering all the way down to

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Speaker 3: that grassroots level, like you touched on that whole ecosystem.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, probably not if I'm totally honest, and look, you know,

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Speaker 4: I want to take into account. There's so many things

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Speaker 4: for sporting organizations to think about. But we see this

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Speaker 4: more and more regularly right that people are being targeted,

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Speaker 4: they're being abused, they're suffering online harms, and I think

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Speaker 4: there's a lot happening in that people know it's there,

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Speaker 4: but they don't quite know what to do about it.

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Speaker 4: It's another thing, and perhaps it's another cost to the

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Speaker 4: budget on when it's limited. There's a lot of reasons,

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Speaker 4: but there are some basics that can really work, and

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Speaker 4: you know, app like social protect education so that we

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Speaker 4: know what to look for, we have an understanding about

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Speaker 4: the psychology of trolling, and so therefore we can educate

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Speaker 4: our athletes on how to respond. One of the really

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Speaker 4: interesting things about that, Deacon report is that the athletes

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Speaker 4: that were interviewed felt really strongly about their right to

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Speaker 4: respond r and that's so important, right, they should be

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Speaker 4: able to respond. But it's more complex than that because

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Speaker 4: when we respond, we're giving trolls exactly what they want.

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Speaker 4: They want you to get emotional and get upset and

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Speaker 4: start sort of typing back, and that just exacerbates the situation.

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Speaker 4: But on the flip side of it, what we see

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Speaker 4: is if we are telling athletes not to respond, is

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Speaker 4: this phenomenon called the silencing effect, which essentially is censoring.

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Speaker 4: It's telling people to get off the platforms, to not respond,

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Speaker 4: to not engage.

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Speaker 2: And that's not okay either.

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Speaker 4: And I think when I sort of started looking at

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Speaker 4: this really holistically, particularly for women and girls, their need

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Speaker 4: to be on social media is more important than ever

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Speaker 4: because they're not going to make the money out of

439
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 4: their sport that the men do. So social media is

440
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 4: that channel that they can optimize and engage with their

441
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 4: fans and start to build a brand and start to

442
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 4: benefit financially from that. So we can't be telling them

443
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 4: to step off and to not respond and to not

444
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 4: engage or potentially lose their platform because it's a critical

445
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 4: piece of that equity puzzle.

446
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 3: And do you think we'll see a shift. I think

447
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 3: it was discussed as part of that Deacon research of

448
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 3: a shift in the online spaces and places being acknowledged

449
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 3: as a workplace where you need to be protected and

450
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 3: where you need to feel safe.

451
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 2: It's really important.

452
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 4: So reading this I think the first time when I

453
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 4: looked at it, and I can't believe this hasn't been

454
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 4: picked up yet, but exactly it is a workplace. So

455
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 4: under safe work standards in Australia, the online world is

456
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 4: it's encompassed in that legislation. So if you're a sporting organization,

457
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 4: it is a requirement of yours to make sure that

458
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,239
Speaker 4: you create safe psychosocial workplaces which are inclusive of the

459
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 4: online world. So you have to show that you're taking

460
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 4: proactive steps to identify risk, mitigate that risk, make sure

461
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 4: that you're ensuring that it's all effective, all of the

462
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 4: safeguards that you've started to put into place. And there's

463
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 4: really significant penalties if you know something happens and you're

464
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 4: not able to prove that upwards of I think about

465
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 4: two million, two and a half million dollars, depending on

466
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 4: the severity of what actually happens. And so you know,

467
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,959
Speaker 4: I looked at this and when it's actually amazing that

468
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 4: this hasn't come to light yet, or that there hasn't

469
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 4: been a situation where an organization has said, hey, yeah,

470
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 4: share this on social media or you know, share the

471
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 4: win or do something, and an athlete has been a

472
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 4: victim of online abuse or something like a deep fake

473
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 4: for example, happens, and you know that the two and

474
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 4: two haven't been put together. This is a workplace responsibility

475
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 4: and a workplace issue, and if that athlete wanted to,

476
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 4: they could turn around and you know, ask for a

477
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 4: remuneration in that sort of circumstance.

478
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think I realized that that was the case.

479
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 4: Wow, we're all learning, right, Like this is something coming

480
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 4: from online safety and tech.

481
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: I've worked a lot in schools.

482
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 4: And you know that's sort of been where I'd specialized

483
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 4: and starting to look into sport and what the legislation says.

484
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 4: These are important things to get right because the more

485
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 4: that the online world grows, and of course we've got

486
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 4: you know, the advent of AI really exacerbating and amplifying

487
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 4: the harms that women are facing in particular, let alone

488
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 4: intersectional groups as well. This is something that everybody needs

489
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 4: to have their eyes on, you know, closely.

490
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 3: What do you think about the solution that a lot

491
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 3: of people put forward around people needing to use their

492
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: ID to sign up to a social media platform so

493
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: that that can be monitored more closely.

494
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really complicated.

495
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 4: So we've started to see the holes in this strategy.

496
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 4: I guess when we're looking at the social media band

497
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 4: from under sixteens at the moment, I want to ask.

498
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: You about that. I know that you've been a person

499
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 3: I wanted to.

500
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 4: Get to that look's I have a lot to say

501
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 4: on that, But in terms of how we enforce it

502
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 4: is a really important question to ask. I think the

503
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 4: general intention is great, we want to try and safeguard

504
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 4: kids and of course anyone, but it all comes down

505
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 4: with how it all comes down to how effective we

506
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 4: can be in enforcing that. So we have to think

507
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 4: about privacy implications in the case of the under sixteens.

508
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 4: What most adults don't understand in this country is in

509
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 4: order to identify a child as being under sixteen, every

510
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 4: other adult has to identify themselves as being an adult.

511
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 4: And so that then means you have to the government

512
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 4: hasn't figured out how that's going to happen, but you

513
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 4: have to prove your identity. So that's a risk of

514
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 4: course we don't want to make. We don't want people

515
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 4: doing that.

516
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: You know, when it.

517
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 4: Comes to kids and their use of social media, we

518
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 4: know that when they're blocked from platforms, they're often driven

519
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 4: to darker, less regulated places on the internet. So while

520
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 4: your metas of the world and your tiktoks and things

521
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 4: are you know, the sort of evil faces of tech

522
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 4: in terms of what we might see in the media,

523
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 4: there's far worse places on the Internet that kids can go.

524
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 4: You know, a platform like TikTok has around forty thousand

525
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 4: people or content moderators working in their trust and safety

526
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 4: teams globally forty thousand.

527
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: People, which is a lot.

528
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 4: Yeah again, you know, I'm not saying they're great, but

529
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 4: this is you know, the investment I guess that comes

530
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 4: from a massive tech company like that and what they're

531
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 4: doing to try and safeguard the platforms and automated content removal.

532
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 4: You know, if they see something then their technology, their

533
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 4: AI will identify its harmful and it will be removed

534
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 4: before anyone sees it a lot of the time. But

535
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 4: if we have kids that can't get onto those platforms

536
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 4: and you know, they hear about another one that's easier

537
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 4: to get into, less regulation, less less rules, they're not

538
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 4: going to be built with safety in mind. The other

539
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: issue that we're starting to see with kids is the

540
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: use of things like chatbots, and you know, they they

541
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 4: when adults think about chatbots, they think about you know,

542
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 4: chat GPT and open AI, but kids are using character

543
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 4: AI and replica and these digital avatars and they're starting

544
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 4: to have relationships with them. And this is sort of

545
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: this weird, sort of dystopian world that we're moving towards

546
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 4: where that's really normalzed and so there's a lot of

547
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 4: unknowns I guess with the impact that that will have.

548
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 4: And so we're probably going a little bit off track here,

549
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 4: but there's a lot of differ.

550
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: Or forever. But you know, kids are using these.

551
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 4: Plat chatbots, you know, for a couple of different reasons.

552
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 4: It's you know, the academic dishonesty issue that most adults

553
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 4: are worried about in skills, but it's now about forming relationships,

554
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 4: testing you know, romantic fantasies, exploring their sexuality, things like that,

555
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 4: which are totally normal things for kids to go through,

556
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 4: but they're now doing it with technology that is capturing

557
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 4: their data and in many ways commercializing intimacy. Like if

558
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 4: they create an avatar that they get really attached to

559
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 4: and they really have a strong relationship with that avatar,

560
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 4: because all it does is parrot back the things that

561
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 4: it knows that child wants to hear and see. And

562
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 4: then suddenly that company decides to like cut a feature

563
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 4: of their personality.

564
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: That child's devastated.

565
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 4: And then we've got kids, of course who are suffering

566
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 4: from you know, mental ill health or disorders. There was

567
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 4: a kid in the US last year called Sewell Seltzer

568
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 4: the Third who genuinely thought he was in a relationship

569
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 4: with Danaris Targerian on character AI. He started to have

570
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 4: suicidal ideation. He had conversations with this chatbot, and it's

571
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 4: alleged that the chatbot encouraged him to take his life

572
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 4: and he did. So there's a lot, I guess to

573
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 4: unpack for young people, let alone adults I guess who

574
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 4: are also utilizing these tools. And you know, AI, I

575
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 4: don't think we've even seen the tip of the iceberg

576
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 4: of where that's going.

577
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: It's pretty scary, and I think I often obviously come

578
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 3: with my women's sports lens at looking at these things.

579
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 3: But how do you kind of Yeah, just hearing those

580
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: things is really quite confronting. You're surround about you have

581
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: your own children, Like, how do you kind of process

582
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: that yourself and look after your own emotional well being

583
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 3: in that space.

584
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: It's a really good question. It's it's really hard.

585
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 4: I think because of the time that I've had in

586
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 4: the police, I've learned to compartmentalize things. Sometimes probably it's

587
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 4: a bit unhealthy because I'm just like, all right, I

588
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 4: just look at the facts and I deal with the

589
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 4: facts and then the emotional stuff can come later. But

590
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 4: I always try to focus on what impact can I make?

591
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 4: And that's you know where I'll always come in. What

592
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 4: what impact can I make for these families? What can

593
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 4: I say in the media, What training can I deliver?

594
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 4: How can I help people understand how this is working,

595
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 4: but also what they can do, because you know, I

596
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 4: talked about the basics working. If you work the basics

597
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 4: when it comes to kids and my own kids, you know,

598
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 4: I know that if I manage their access, so I

599
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 4: call it they call it the ABC's If I manage

600
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 4: their access, set bound and openly communicate all the time,

601
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 4: then that sets a really great foundation for how they're

602
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 4: going to approach technology in the future. And the really

603
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 4: big one is making sure that even though it is scary,

604
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 4: that we don't demonize it because kids don't see the

605
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 4: dangers in the same way that we as adults do.

606
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 4: And if we show that we have a sort of

607
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 4: an anti tech ethos, that we're thinking that it's all

608
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: going to ruin the world and they don't feel that way,

609
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 4: there's going to create in us in us and them

610
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 4: kind of mentality and that impacts help seeking when things

611
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 4: do go wrong, and that is the number one protective

612
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 4: factor for kids in the online world, is that they're

613
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 4: willing to come to someone and they have someone a

614
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,479
Speaker 4: lighthouse adult or somebody could be their coach, could be

615
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 4: someone in their team that they can go to for

616
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 4: help when something does go wrong, because they will make mistakes,

617
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 4: things do happen, but their ability to recover and overcome

618
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 4: them to have that digital resilience that is in built

619
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 4: through time education understanding how technology works, then for most

620
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 4: kids they're going to have a pretty decent experience of it,

621
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 4: but it's got to be that strength based approach. I've

622
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 4: got to move away from the fear mongering because it

623
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 4: doesn't work in the long term. We've got to look

624
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 4: at how we can empower them to use tech the

625
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 4: right way.

626
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 3: Continuing on that theme around empowering, you talk about the

627
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: term first movers. Can you describe what that means?

628
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: I sort of.

629
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 4: I came up with this relatively recently because I guess

630
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 4: it comes down to that advocacy piece I spoke about

631
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 4: and looking at the brolgarchy and not to be a

632
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 4: man hater, like I promise I'm not, and I know I'm.

633
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: A lesbian and I know that I get that a lot.

634
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 4: But I just looked around and just went women wouldn't

635
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 4: make these decisions.

636
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: A lot of women wouldn't. He's always going.

637
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 4: To be the you know, the few that might. But

638
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 4: I just think we need more women in those positions

639
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 4: to make those decisions for the betterment of humanity. And

640
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 4: what I started to look at again when it came

641
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 4: to the research is that women typically were taught to wait,

642
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 4: wait till we're qualified, wait until we're certain, sometimes wait

643
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 4: for permission.

644
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: And one thing that I know for.

645
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 4: Sure is that the leaders who make history, they don't wait,

646
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 4: they go first. And so I started to think about

647
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 4: that philosophy. How do we create more first movers? How

648
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 4: do we give women the skills to be first movers,

649
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 4: to have the confidence to step into the arena even

650
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 4: when they don't have every answer, to not hesitate to

651
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 4: sort of understand that confidence isn't a.

652
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 2: Prerequisite of action, it's a result.

653
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 4: Of stepping into that arena, and that we actually just

654
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 4: need courage first. And when I think of athletes, I

655
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 4: think they are just primed to be the first movers

656
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 4: of the world because when we look at athletes, they

657
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 4: have those skills, they have the knowledge, they have the courage,

658
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 4: and I'm really on a mission to make sure that

659
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 4: they have the visibility so that they can inspire other

660
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 4: young girls and other young women and other people to

661
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 4: do the same thing.

662
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 2: And so that's what the first movers philosophy is all about.

663
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: I love it. You're just like I'm just like, I

664
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 3: always got goosebumps while you're talking about it. So and

665
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 3: like the weight thing, it's so accurate, isn't it. Yeah,

666
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: Like I think if you if you said that to

667
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: pretty much any woman, They just immediately would not.

668
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 4: Their head and be like the curses maybe better a

669
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 4: better fit for me, or I should wait until I've

670
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 4: got that qualification or I've got that experience, or the

671
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 4: circumstances of my life you know better, And you know

672
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 4: in the end, that's just it's fictitious, perfect time for anything.

673
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: We've just got to move. We've got to choose to

674
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 2: be the one to step forward.

675
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 4: You know, as I mentioned to you, like I love sport,

676
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 4: it hasn't been a massive part of my life since

677
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 4: assuming world. I wish that it was, but life takes

678
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 4: over and so when I look at this, I kind

679
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 4: of go far out. I need to sort of understand

680
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 4: what sport looks like in twenty twenty five. But I

681
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 4: know that I know my shit and I know I

682
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 4: can step in and help people here. So that's what

683
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 4: I'm doing, and I want to see that impact and

684
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 4: I guess the positive outcomes that can come from it.

685
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 3: And what can women athletes do to be leaders in

686
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 3: that space? And what do you think they also need

687
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 3: to be equipped with from like an education and resources

688
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 3: point of view to be able to do that?

689
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 4: Well, I think it does start with education, right, we've

690
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 4: got to We can't be telling people to sort of

691
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 4: jump in and you know, try and sort of manage

692
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 4: everything if they're getting a disproportionate level of abuse comparatively

693
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 4: to anyone else. So I've got to understand what safeguards

694
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 4: there are. They've got to learn about the Safety Commissioner

695
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 4: and the takedown and reporting scheme that they have to

696
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 4: try and make sure that content is removed.

697
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: They need the support of their.

698
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 4: Organizations to stand beside them and change the culture of

699
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 4: online abuse in sport. And I think at the moment,

700
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 4: we tolerate it and we think there's nothing that we

701
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 4: can do about it. And I think there's a lot

702
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 4: of power in organizations standing up and saying this is enough,

703
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 4: is enough, we won't tolerate this. If you're a fan

704
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 4: that wants to behave this way, we're going to revoke

705
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 4: a membership. They're going to take steps that show a

706
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 4: zero tolerance policy when it comes to this. And it's

707
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 4: much easier said than done, but there are steps that

708
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 4: can be taken to show support for the athletes, to

709
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 4: show that they take it seriously, that they provide that

710
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 4: education as part of an overall strategic priority, and wellbeing

711
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 4: priority for them, that it's integrated into their training, that

712
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 4: they're given time to talk about what.

713
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: Might be happening in their online worlds.

714
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 4: I know that you know, athletes get brand building training

715
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 4: here and there, that this is something if you're going

716
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 4: to say go out there and utilize social media platforms

717
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 4: to build your brand and make money. Like any brand,

718
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 4: we need to have a safeguarding strategy, and athletes in

719
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five are a brand. So's I think changing

720
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 4: our thinking about this and sort of making sure that

721
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 4: we don't think about it as a one dimensional kind

722
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 4: of safety strategy, that it actually cracks open opportunities for

723
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 4: them when we get it right, and it's got to

724
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 4: be embedded, I guess into things from day one.

725
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 3: Can you touch in a bit more detail about the

726
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,959
Speaker 3: E Safety Commissioner? What is it and how can people

727
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: utilize it?

728
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

729
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 4: So, the Office of the E Safety Commissioner is a

730
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 4: government organization. The E Safety Commissioner herself is a woman

731
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 4: called Julie Inman Grant. But what athletes should know and

732
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 4: anyone listening to this should know, is that they have

733
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 4: an Online Safety Act that they enforce, which basically means

734
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 4: that if people receive serious or significant cyber abuse threats, harassment, stalking,

735
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 4: if there is content that they see that might incite violence,

736
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 4: terrorism related content, explicit content related to children, child sexual

737
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 4: abuse material, all of this sort of.

738
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 2: High level stuff.

739
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 4: If you have reported it to the platform, nothing happens.

740
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 4: You can also report it to the Office of E Safety,

741
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 4: and they have a memorandum of understanding with pretty much

742
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 4: every major platform out there that says that if it's

743
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 4: not been taken down and it does meet that criteria,

744
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 4: they can force a take down notice and there's big

745
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 4: penalties and fines there for those platforms. If they don't.

746
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 4: They're pretty effective. Sometimes it can take longer than is ideal,

747
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 4: but at a minimum they exist. If there is explicit

748
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 4: content or what we call image based abuse. Let's say

749
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 4: athlete has a deep fake sexual image created of them,

750
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 4: and there's a stat that I think is really interesting.

751
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 4: Ninety eight percent of deep deep fakes on the Internet

752
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 4: at the moment, a pornographic in nature ninety six percent

753
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 4: depict women and girls without their consent.

754
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 3: Scary.

755
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 4: It is scary, and when it comes to E Safety,

756
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 4: seventy five percent of reports to them come from women

757
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 4: and girls. So there's you know, a disproportioned impact. But

758
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 4: let's say, you know, we have a deep fake that's spread.

759
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 4: There's also another platform that can have that image taken

760
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:40,479
Speaker 4: down if it's got well.

761
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 2: It's like a.

762
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 4: Digital fingerprint across a lot of the different platforms called

763
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 4: take it Down dot org, So particularly for younger players

764
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 4: or girls as well, will work particularly well. So you

765
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 4: can report it to them, or you can report it

766
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 4: to e safety and they will have that image taken

767
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 4: down if they're able to identify.

768
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 2: It's called the hash value of it.

769
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 4: So there's tech that is being used for good, I guess,

770
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 4: to try and help people.

771
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: You know.

772
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 4: The deep fakes of the world are a tricky one

773
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 4: because it's just really hard to keep up with and

774
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 4: they're so easily made now, and they're so hyper realistic.

775
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 4: I wish I had a solution for everybody to say,

776
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 4: do this and you'll be fine. But the reality is

777
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 4: we've just got to be really mindful about what we're

778
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 4: putting out there. When it comes to the content that

779
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,720
Speaker 4: we're sharing. It's really difficult to make deep fakes if

780
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 4: you have to use images that are not sort of

781
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 4: clear and forward facing and perfect. So if you're posting pictures,

782
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 4: for example, maybe from the side, so you're getting the

783
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 4: side of your face rather than a perfect image of

784
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 4: the front. That makes it harder to create them. Little

785
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 4: tips like that, I guess are you know? They're a

786
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 4: drop in the ocean, but they are helpful in terms

787
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 4: of thinking and being mindful about the content that you're posting.

788
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 3: A question that I ask everyone on the podcast while

789
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,919
Speaker 3: I've got to the first one is what is your

790
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 3: favorite failure?

791
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: Oh?

792
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 3: It often stumps people. I should have given you a

793
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: heads up.

794
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 2: No favorite failure? Oh, how do I think?

795
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 4: Okay, one that's randomly coming to mind. There's probably a

796
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 4: million failures. But an epic fail that ended up quite

797
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 4: a hilarious story was when I graduated from the police

798
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 4: Academy and was stationed at Newtown. Was Valentine's Day and

799
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 4: so I was still pretty excited about the uniform that

800
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 4: I was wearing, and so was my girlfriend at the time,

801
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 4: my now wife. So she came to the police station.

802
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 4: I was on a night shift and it was really quiet.

803
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: There was no one around, and we were in.

804
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 4: The sort of lobby of the police station and she's like, oh, darling,

805
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 4: do want to give me a little spin in new

806
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 4: police uniform, and I went, I can do you one better.

807
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 4: I'll do a chart the angels, And I did this

808
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 4: little like pose because yeah, I'm such a wolflower. Anyway,

809
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 4: I hear this sort of giggling happening from behind the

810
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 4: station cabinet and I look over and my entire police

811
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 4: station is sitting there watching me on CCTV.

812
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 2: Do the Charlie's Angels pose in my first few weeks

813
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: at Newtown Police Station.

814
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: Did you ever live that down? No?

815
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: That was an epic fail in the beginning.

816
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 4: But what was funny about it now that I reflect back,

817
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 4: and I guess, you know, I always look at our

818
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 4: failures as opportunities to learn or you know, or lah

819
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 4: lah exactly. But I guess I've always been pretty authentic

820
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 4: as a person. It's one of my real core values.

821
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 4: And you know, people saw me for who I was.

822
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 4: I could be serious, obviously as a police officer you

823
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 4: had to be, but showing a bit of personality.

824
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 2: Went a really long way.

825
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 4: And that was one of the biggest lessons from the

826
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 4: cops for me, is even though you've sort of been

827
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 4: given this sort of heavy role in a lot of

828
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 4: serious situations. You should never lose your humanity, and your

829
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 4: humanity is what connects you to other people and allows

830
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 4: you to have a positive impact. And so while that

831
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 4: was an epic fail, it's probably one of my favorites.

832
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 3: I love that. Yeah, I'm a big fan of that one,

833
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 3: both of me the laugh, but also yeah, just that

834
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 3: humanity piece it is and the vulnerability piece, right, is

835
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 3: such a huge connector.

836
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I think that was the superpower in terms

837
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 4: of the police is just being authentic and meeting people

838
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 4: where they're at, and that's where you really do have

839
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 4: those good outcomes.

840
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: People can talk to another human being who.

841
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 4: They think cares about them, regardless of the uniform.

842
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 2: They're in love that.

843
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 3: Who has had the biggest impact on you as a person.

844
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 4: That's another hard one because I can't say one person really.

845
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 4: I think as a young as a young girl, my

846
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 4: grandmother had a massive influence on me.

847
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: She was really entrepreneurial, quite.

848
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 4: Rebellious, always said, you know, you can achieve anything.

849
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: You know, was that.

850
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 4: Inspirational role model that believed in me beyond anything that

851
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 4: I could ever have imagined. Always sort of told me

852
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 4: to chase my dreams. But I guess it's gonna sound

853
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 4: so lame, but I am really inspired by my wife.

854
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 4: I love, she'll love this thing. She'll be so embarrassed,

855
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 4: but she she's.

856
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: The biggest ballbuster I know.

857
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 4: But she inspires me as well, Like in terms of

858
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 4: a level of confidence and self assuredness. I don't know

859
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 4: anybody that has the same level of confidence as she does.

860
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 4: And you know, when I'm feeling weak or when I'm

861
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 4: feeling like maybe you know, a little bit jittery on

862
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 4: whatever it is that I'm trying to achieve, her belief

863
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 4: in me really gives me a lot of strength as well.

864
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 4: So I'm inspired by and strengthened by her as well. Love.

865
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 3: I hope she listens.

866
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm going to.

867
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 4: Make sure she says to this, like she's got to

868
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 4: make sure you share on social media.

869
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 3: That's so good. Yeah, thank you so much for your

870
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 3: time today. It's like I've learned a huge amount. And

871
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 3: I think the value that you bring with your knowledge

872
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 3: and wisdom in that space, like I just yeah, I

873
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 3: think sporting organizations and teams and athletes would get so

874
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: much out of that, and I imagine our listeners will

875
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 3: be the same. So thank you so much for your time.

876
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It's been so good to

877
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 2: chat to you. Thanks so much for listening.

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Speaker 3: If you got something out of this episode, I would

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