1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: So the morning routine for me was getting up early, 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: going for a run, and I found that that was 3 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: the best time for me to sort of mill over 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: or to you the foaud and a problem that I was 5 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: trying to solve. And I always found that after my run, 6 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: I sort of just comes to this point of our 7 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: high moments or some enlightenment. 8 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 9 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 10 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 11 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 12 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. My 13 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 2: guest on today's show is Dean's Swan. Dean is the 14 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: country manager of Dropbox, where he oversees dropboxes business operations 15 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: across Australia and New Zealand. And in case you haven't 16 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: heard of Dropbox, it's one of Silicon Valley's unicorns, which 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: is a company valued at over one billion dollars. So 18 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: Dropbox provides file hosting and I have been a customer 19 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: of Dropbox for men many many years. So I connected 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: with Dean as drop Box Australia have been experimenting with 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 2: how they work and challenging a lot of the working 22 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: norms that exist, and this has resulted in the launch 23 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: of dropboxes Enlightened Summer campaign, which is a summer long 24 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: initiative in Australia encouraging workplaces across that country to reimagine 25 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 2: a more enlightened way of working. So in this chat 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: with Dean, we start by talking about how Dropboxes have 27 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 2: changed their approach to work and in some ways quite dramatically, 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: and then we delve into how Dean has adapted his 29 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: own working behaviors too. And if you like the sound 30 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: of what Dropbox is doing. I finished my chat with 31 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 2: Dean talking about his advice for listeners who are trying 32 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 2: to influence their boss on changing their working norms. So 33 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: on that note, let's go over to Dean to hear 34 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: about how he works. 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: Dean, Welcome to the show. 36 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: Thanks a man, Thanks for having me. 37 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: Okay, so I want to talk about Enlightened Summer, which 38 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: is sort of a campaign that the Dropbox is doing. 39 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: And I was wondering if we could start by you 40 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: telling us what Enlightened Summer is and how it came about. 41 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: So it came about through an initiative that drop Box 42 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: runs once a year. It's called hack Week, right, so 43 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: we're a founder led company. It's led by two engineers 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: that are still involved, so it's very much got an 45 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: engineering culture. And hackwik is one of those things that 46 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: it's been around at Dropbox for many years and it's 47 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: a week where typically it started with the engineers. They 48 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: can go work on their passion projects or their pet projects. 49 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: Former team go about building an MVP and then create 50 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: something that they that they want to see in Dropbox 51 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 1: or maybe it's a piece of technology solving some other 52 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: problem opportunity they got. So a lot of the innovation 53 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: in drop Box that we see today, a lot of 54 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: it actually has come out of hack. So what we 55 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: did in Australia was we took hack Week and because 56 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of engineers yet, it's mostly 57 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: people that are working in roles like sales, marketing, business 58 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: administration and so on, we focused Hack Week on hacking 59 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: how we work. So in Lights and Summer was an 60 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: output of that initiative. So we had the hack Week initiative. 61 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: I think it's going back two weeks ago now and 62 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: we just started experimenting with different ways that we could 63 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: hack our workflow. So we did some things, like some 64 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: people decided that they were going to work at very 65 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: unusual hours, right, So we had Hay Mission our customer 66 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: success team. He started He's worked at four am and 67 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: then you had finished around midday, right, So this was 68 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: one of his hack weak initiatives. We had people that 69 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: were thinking about, well, how do I use different productivity techniques? 70 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: So lead Communications and PI leader she ran the session 71 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: on the Pomodora methods. So if you're familiar with Pomodora method. 72 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: Is it I certainly am, but can you explain it 73 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: for listeners that might not be. 74 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's where you do focused work for twenty 75 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: five minutes and then you take a five minute break 76 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: as a reward. Maybe that's when you go up and 77 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: you get a snack or a drink, come back, do 78 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: another twenty five minutes and you do sort of four 79 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: to twenty five minute focus sessions and then after that 80 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: you get a longer break as a reward. And you know, 81 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: it's just a way of being able to do focused 82 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: work right and might sort of be distracted and be 83 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: quite disciplined about that. So we did that as a 84 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: hack We had people taking on different roles just as 85 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: a way of getting empathy for what other people are doing, 86 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: some of the challenges that they're going through on their 87 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: day to day. 88 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,679 Speaker 3: Did anyone take on your role of leading? 89 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe they're not to be said about that 90 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: exactly right. One of the things that I did was 91 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: I took a couple of our leaders and we started 92 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: our day really early on the of course, so it 93 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: was like a seven am start, but just getting into 94 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: a different space and environment where we didn't have technology, 95 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: we didn't have any distraction and we could focus on 96 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: something else. We could also have just like a really 97 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: open conversation. And then off the back of that, we 98 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: went and spent a day somewhere for four hours, we 99 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: were just doing a swat on the business, right, So 100 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: again getting into different headspace, thinking about the challenges and 101 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: the opportunities from a different perspective. So that was one 102 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: of our hacky initiatives. And then on the Friday we 103 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: had an award ceremony. So what we did was we 104 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: actually rented out the North Bondai Surf Life Saving Club. 105 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: We moved the whole office there for the day, even 106 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: moved help desk so we had a help desk technician 107 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: sitting at a prime spot overlooking Bondai Beach on a 108 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: beautiful sunny day and we did our work from the 109 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: office for the day there. And I think again it 110 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: was a perfect cold domination of this summer effect, right, 111 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: so being in a beautiful location, great weather. But it 112 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: really was about bringing energy and creativity and inspiration to 113 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: the team. 114 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: I want to dig a little bit more into some 115 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: of those areas. So firstly setting up an office in 116 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: Bondi and you've got like about fifty staff here in Sydney, 117 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: just to set the scene. What went into that? Like logistically, 118 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: is that an easy thing to do, to just go 119 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: where's a space that can fit fifty people? 120 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it felt easy for me because I just turned 121 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: up on the day and we had a great date. 122 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: But I'm sure there was a lot behind the scenes. 123 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: So I think it was interesting because we had a 124 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: leadership meeting and one of the first sort of things 125 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: was actually putting the idea out there, which is what 126 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: Lee did, and we had quite a debate about it 127 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: because you know, there were these different viewpoints around well, 128 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, are we going to be productive? We're not 129 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: going to be in the office. Are we going to 130 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: get work done? And that was a really healthy discussion 131 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: in terms of the sort of having healthy conflict around 132 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: that and just understanding, well, what are you know, our 133 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: expectations around these sorts of things, like, really, how fir 134 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: out of our norm do we want to get in 135 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: terms of initiative like this. So it started there, I think, 136 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: at the leadership team enrolling into the idea and understanding 137 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: the merits of doing something like that, and then logistically, 138 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure there was a lot that went on in 139 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: terms of the planning, the organizing, trying to find the 140 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: right venue, enlisting the whole team, getting the team there, 141 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: and also the team feeling like it's not about you 142 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: not doing your work or because some people feel challenged 143 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: with We've had this before where they feel like, well, 144 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: hack week, you know, I'm not going to be able 145 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: to do my job because I'm going to be doing 146 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: all these other creative projects and i can't do my job. 147 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: So we had to encourage people to say, well, you 148 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: can do your job. You're still going to do your job. 149 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: Are you're going to do it in a different way 150 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: so you might be doing it in a way or 151 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: more thoughtful way as opposed to just being in that 152 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: mode of auto pilot. And for me that was probably 153 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: the big thing, is like, how do you get the 154 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: whole team out of auto pilots in terms of just 155 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: the usual way of doing things and try something different? Right, 156 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: So moving our physical space to Bonda Beach was part 157 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: of that. 158 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're morning on the golf course, like are 159 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: you just playing golf? 160 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 3: Your talking business? Like what did that look like? 161 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: Well, all of that right, So we were two new 162 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: leaders on the team, so in one respect, it was 163 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: us just getting to know one another at a little 164 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: bit more of a social level and then just having 165 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: that open space in terms of talking about things that 166 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: they've observed in the business, things that are top of 167 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: mind for me in terms of challenges and opportunities, and 168 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: again just doing in a different environment without that distraction 169 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: of knowing that we've got to be at a meeting 170 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: in a half an hour's time or emails coming through 171 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: and all the other things that we need to get done. 172 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, I found that was like a really high 173 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: quality session both in terms of just talking things openly, 174 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: but when we did the SWAT analysis, so when we 175 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: spent the four hours after that in a really focused session. 176 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: That was a high quality conversation for us because we 177 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: just put all those ideas together. 178 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you think sort of being that combination, I 179 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: guess of being offsite in that relaxed environment almost that 180 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 2: prelude to a working strategy session. 181 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 3: Was Yeah, it was what really made it. 182 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, and I guess also, like you know, 183 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: you mentioned being off technology, and I know that part 184 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: of what some people experimented with was being off email 185 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 2: and instant messenger. Was that something that you tried during 186 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: the week in terms of tech blockouts? 187 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, I tried that, so you know, when we were 188 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: out of the office, it was just keeping technology out 189 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: of the way, and it was using our notepad and 190 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: the diary and it's taking notes. I know. Yeah. Obviously 191 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: as a company, one of the things that we're really 192 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: driving towards is drop Box is a smart workspace and 193 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: creating this common, more focused space. So for our teams, well, 194 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: how do our teams work out of drop Box, out 195 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: of drop Box spaces as opposed to old habits of 196 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: the first thing you do when you get to the 197 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: office is you open up email as your primary work 198 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: application and getting them to change the habit of well, 199 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: let me stop doing that and let me sort of 200 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: work out of a space where I know I've got 201 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: a particular project or initiative that I'm focused on and 202 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: I can just dive straight into that. 203 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 2: How have you taken that one forward? Because I'd imagine, like, 204 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: as the person responsible for leading this office, for leading 205 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 2: Australia in New Zealand, like you're going to be getting 206 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 2: urgent communications left, right and center at all hours of 207 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: the day. 208 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 3: What's your approach to that? 209 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: Now? 210 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: Well, personally, I think quite a light about how do 211 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: I manage my energy and how do I engage in 212 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: the things that are going to make the most of 213 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: my time in terms of my phone because and my creativity. Right, So, 214 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: if I think about email specifically, I'm not great at email. 215 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's probably not the best medium to engage 216 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: with me. I know certain people in our office will 217 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: get frustrated because they're like, well, you know, I'll send 218 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: you that email and they're expecting an immediate response. So 219 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: what I'll do is I'll think about my time deliberately 220 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: in the morning. One of those people that as it 221 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: takes me a while just to get into the rhythm 222 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: of the day, so you know, the morning's at good 223 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: times for me just to scan through email, maybe fire 224 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: it a few and then just get out of it 225 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: straight away and address the urgent things in the morning 226 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: and then in the afternoon again when I'm not at 227 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: my creative best or don't have you know, all of 228 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: that cognitive energy and focus, and I can get back 229 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: to email, which for me is more of like an 230 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: administrative task as opposed to doing my creative work. Or 231 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: how do you talk about maker time? So it's not 232 00:11:58,400 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: my maker time when I'm in. 233 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I did want to delve into that. 234 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 2: So I imagine you are familiar with maker versus manager 235 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: time and all Graham's sort of essay around that. How 236 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: do you think about that in your role in terms 237 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 2: of balancing manager time and maker time? And I'm curious 238 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: even if you have rituals or routines around that and 239 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 2: how you structure your work. 240 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: Well, a bit of my background, so I spent eleven 241 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: years at Microsoft, so very large corporate and large corporate, 242 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: it's very structured. There's a lot of distraction as well, 243 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of your time is almost 244 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: spoken for on behalf of you right. So, and one 245 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: of the ways that you'd measure quote unquote your effectiveness 246 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: is helpful is my diary. If I've got a lot 247 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: of meetings of my diary and it's very structured, and 248 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: I'd say that's so that environment, you've got an MBA 249 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: in manager time. Right. Then I went and founded a startup, 250 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: so as a as a technical co founder, that was 251 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: center of the spectrum. Right. So in that instance, it's 252 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: very unstructured. Your time is your time. You don't have 253 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: people competing for time. One of my shocks was when 254 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: I'd open up my calendar and it would be empty, 255 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: and it's like the initial thing that you've got to 256 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: get get over is like, well, you know, I need 257 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: to have this calendar full of meetings to feel like 258 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: I've achieved something in the day. And that was maker time, right. 259 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: So then in the startup, you know, I was creating something. 260 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: So my time is all about thinking about, well, how 261 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: we're going to build this product, what's the problem that 262 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: we're solving for as opposed to managing a whole lot 263 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: of things. Right. 264 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 3: Was there a transition period for you? 265 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely, because I feel like that's really hard, and I 266 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: mean for my own my own work journey. 267 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: I spent the like over a decade running Inventor here. 268 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 3: I mean, which is, you know, only. 269 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 2: About a fifteen person consultancy. But what was it six 270 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 2: eight months ago? I transitioned from being CEO to being 271 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: a full time maker essentially. 272 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 3: And that's a hard shift to make. 273 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: I want to know, like, what were the biggest challenges there, 274 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: and how did you actually get into the swing of 275 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: going Hang on, I've got no meetings, but that's okay. 276 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is an adjustment, right. I remember before I 277 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: went into the startup, I had a coffee with Rod Jury, 278 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: who's the founder of Zero. It was his business coach 279 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: back in the day, and she said to me, she said, 280 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: you've got to unlearn everything that you've learned in your 281 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: corporate life to be successful as a startup founder. And 282 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: I thought I had an idea of what she meant, 283 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: but I think I really dawned on me when, like 284 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: I said, that first day in the office as a founder, 285 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: opening up my calendar and just having this this empty calendar, 286 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: and my first reaction was actually start filling up the calendar. 287 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 3: It's not that interesting. 288 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: I started blocking out times, all right, I need this 289 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: time to do this, and you know, on this day, 290 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: at this time, we need to have a strategy meeting. 291 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: We need to check in on our KPIs and see 292 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: how we're going with that balanced scorecut. That lasted probably 293 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: about a month, and then after I was like, there's 294 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: no structure. It is very what's the right word, I 295 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: think volatile, unpredictable, because you're just problem solving all the time, right, 296 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: so your day could be spent building something versus well, 297 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: we need to be raising capital and doing everything in between. 298 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: So that was my adjustment. And then finally still of 299 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: letting go of and then thinking about I need to 300 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: manage my energy. I need to manage my creativity. I 301 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: don't need to manage my time as a calendar. I 302 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: need to think about, well, when do I produce my 303 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: best work, Like when I am my best at creative 304 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: problem solving, when I am I best at pitching to 305 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: a VC Right, And I was sort of thinking more 306 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: deliberately about that. 307 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 3: How did you figure that out? 308 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: I had an intuition about it, and it came from 309 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: as strange place is, before I got into tech, I 310 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: actually was a chef right and running a restaurant as 311 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: a chef you actually have that sort of very different 312 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: sort of times in the day and that you have 313 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: to manage your energy. Right, So your day typically started 314 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: with opening up the kitchen, setting up the kitchen, doing 315 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: your prep, placing orders for supplies and that sort of 316 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: low energy, low focus, and then you'd have your service hours, right, 317 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: so then you'd do a lunch service and it would 318 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: be high energy, intense focus, and then you'd have a break, 319 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: and then you'd do dinner service and then you'd have 320 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: high energy, intense focus again. But you sort of learn 321 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: how to manage your energy because the days were very long, 322 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: and then you could figure out, well, this is the 323 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: best time for me to do certain things. And I 324 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: think I sort of brought that into startups. So what 325 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I need time in my day 326 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: when I can think about things and I'm not in 327 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: the task. So for me, I started adjusting my morning routine. 328 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: So the morning routine for me was getting up early, 329 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: going for a run, and I found that that was 330 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: the best time for me to sort of mill over 331 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: or chew the fat and a problem that I was 332 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: trying to solve. And I always found that after my run, 333 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: i'd sort of just come to this point of a 334 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: high moment or some enlightenment, I'd meditate, and with your run, 335 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: like do you do you listen to anything? 336 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 2: Are you like in putting any stimulus into your brain 337 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: or are you running like silently? 338 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: Especially so sometimes I'd really want to just distract myself, 339 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: so you know, i'd want to get into a different 340 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: space and not necessarily think about the business and the 341 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: startup and all the challenges that we're trying to solve 342 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: or so then you know, i'd get an inspiration and 343 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: put on a podcast, listen to Tim Ferris or whoever, 344 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: and then just get my head into different space. But 345 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: then I'd find that like through that, then I'd come 346 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: up with an aheigh moment. All other times I'd just 347 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: just not listen to anything and I'd just run and 348 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: I just get into my mind. 349 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So anyway, so after you run, like you 350 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 3: might meditate. 351 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: Run, meditate, and then I'd go into the office. I 352 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: found that I needed to go to a place to 353 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: work in a sense, So we had an office in 354 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: one of the startup incubators, so I'd go there and 355 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: then for me, that was the environment where I went 356 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: to work, right and then again in the mornings. Mornings 357 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: for me were my best creative moments, right because I'd 358 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: had the run I'd come in. Energy was now high. 359 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: I was in a great space as in that creative space, 360 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: and that's when i'd do the creative work. That's when 361 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: I'd go to work on the products and do the UAX, 362 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: the UI work, working with our developers, and you know, 363 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: that's where we were getting things done. And then in 364 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: the afternoon was typically the other things that were associated 365 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: with the business. So you know, I might get into 366 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: the accounting work that I needed to do or follow 367 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: up on certain conversations that we were chasing as far 368 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: as raising capital was concerned. So I also found that 369 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: I typically did VC meetings in the afternoon. 370 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 3: Why was that. 371 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: I just felt like I needed that sort of change 372 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: of environment, and I felt like I wasn't doing my 373 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: best work in the morning as far as building stuff 374 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: was concerned, and in the afternoon it was more about 375 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: interacting with people and having those conversations. That was better 376 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: for me because it was a change of environment, change 377 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: of pace, and I didn't have to do deep focus work. 378 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, because I want to ask about how that 379 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 2: all changed when you moved to drop Box about three 380 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 2: years ago when he's three, three and a half years 381 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: and you started drop Box. 382 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 3: You're head of sales for APAC. 383 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. 384 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 2: And I've always sort of wondered, how do you go 385 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: from essentially being like you've come from Microsoft, where you're 386 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: largely running on a manager schedule, and then you're one 387 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: hundred percent make a schedule at the startup and then 388 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 2: you're in a sales role, all very very manager hours, 389 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 2: but I would imagine also a need for maker activities 390 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: because they're strategizing. 391 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 3: So what did that look like? 392 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: So Dropbox for me was the combo, right, It was 393 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: actually the perfect combo of manager time and maker time. 394 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: And again, you know, if I think about that scale 395 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: of the different businesses, so Microsoft being this large multinational 396 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands employees, I start up being a company 397 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: of three, with drop Box being somewhere in the middle 398 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: on that continue, right, So it was a scale app. 399 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: It was a company that was building something, but you know, 400 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: definitely not at the at the level at the scale 401 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: of Microsoft in some respects. So for me, it was 402 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: that combo. So it was being able to come in 403 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: and sort have that startup mind that founder mindset in 404 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: terms of well, we're going to come in and we're 405 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: going to build something, and you're going to focus on 406 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: solving problems also being comfortable not necessarily having the playable 407 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: or the script of exactly how things get done. So 408 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: then you get to figure that out. That's energizing. I 409 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: enjoy that, But at the same time, how do you 410 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: bring also some of that structure to a high growth 411 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: business and a business that is also figuring things out 412 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: and building. So for me, Dropbox was that perfect combo. 413 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 2: And so, what did a typical week look like if 414 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: you're having your ideal week in terms of structure and 415 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: managing your energy when you're in the sales role, what 416 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 2: would that look like. 417 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: I think my deal week would be having the Mondays 418 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: being the manager time, right, and that was an admin 419 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: day for me. It was a lot of forecast meetings, 420 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: checking in on how we're performing, having conversations around the 421 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,959 Speaker 1: things that we wanted to work on, and checking in 422 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: on projects and initias that we've got on the go. 423 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 3: It's a very kind of internally direct. 424 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: Very internal, and then for the rest of the week 425 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: is trying to get external as much as possible, right, 426 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: but certainly in the mornings again, you know the things 427 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: that needed creative input, creative thinking, working on those big 428 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: things in the morning, and then in the afternoon if 429 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: we had internal meetings, I would monitor my energy levels. 430 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: I know when I'm engaged in a conversation and when 431 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: I am at sort of the right energy level to 432 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: have a productive meeting. So yeah, with my team in 433 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: the afternoons, if I felt like I was flagging, I'd say, right, 434 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,959 Speaker 1: let's go for a walkie talkie. So we go. Do 435 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: we go? Do walking meetings? Right? And that way again, 436 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: it changes the environment. I find that, you know, then 437 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: I'd get re energized again and I could really focus 438 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: on the conversation and have a high quality meeting. 439 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: Would do that for external meetings as well. Suggest walking 440 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 2: meetings or something else to change the energy. 441 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: I haven't tried it, but yeah, I mean, we do 442 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: do things that change energy in terms of a mix 443 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: of being bringing people into our vironments and being able 444 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: to show them around and have a conversation over lunch 445 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: as opposed to being in a formal setting of a 446 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: meeting room. But we try and encourage people to get 447 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: out as much as possible. Right, So go see how 448 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: people are working, understand what their environment's all about as well, 449 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: and that's I get my energy out of that. So 450 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: if I think about my deal week, in a sales week, 451 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: it would have been manager time on the Monday, a 452 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: lot of the internal activities. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday would be 453 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: external and meeting with customers, meeting with people that we 454 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: were obviously prospecting in terms of our business. Some evenings 455 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: you'd be doing external events and presentations, a little bit 456 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: of prep around that, and then on a Friday, Fridays 457 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: a little bit different, right, So Fridays again a little 458 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: bit manager time, but then trying to also think about 459 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: things that we could learn, right. And I think again, 460 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: when you're in that sort of phase that drop boxes 461 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: in a lot of retrospective and thinking about and discussing 462 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: and learning as a group what's working, what's not working, 463 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: What do we need to do more of, what do 464 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: we need to stop doing? And so so Fridays for us, 465 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: we're always that sort of retrospective time. So we would 466 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: have things like a learning huddle. We would come together 467 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: as a team and we talk about the challenges that 468 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: that we're facing all the opportunities and then brainstorm different 469 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: ways of doing things. 470 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 2: Is that something that you still do now in your 471 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: role as country manager running those retros. 472 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, so now that's part of our culture, and I 473 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: think again that's a as you can appreciate it. It's 474 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: an engineering culture, right, So running a retro is something 475 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: that you do as a software developer, and we bring 476 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: that into our day to day work. So when we 477 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: have an event, we'll have a retro. After the event, 478 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: we'll sort of understand, well, what worked, what didn't work, 479 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: what we do do differently next time. When we have 480 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: a sales engagement and we are successful, we'll have a retro. 481 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: If we're not successful, we'll have a retro. So retros, 482 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: I think just are part of our culture and the 483 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: way that we do things. If I look at hack Week, 484 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that Hackwik did for us in 485 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: terms of hacking the way we work. When I was 486 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: offside with the team, we had to look at the 487 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: business from a different perspective. Ruggers, we got out of 488 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: the activity and then we were looking at at a 489 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: high level thinking about, well, what are those things that 490 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: we want to solve for what are the opportunities and 491 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: for me going forward, I don't want that to be 492 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: a once sort of thing. So as a leader, I 493 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: want that to be something that we are doing on 494 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: a regular enough basis. So one of the initiatives at 495 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: the top of mine is, well, how do we have 496 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: a focused Friday where we can come together on a 497 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: Friday and we can carve out that make of time 498 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: if you like, and then we can think about the 499 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: backlog of all the things that might be annoying us 500 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: or things that we wish we could solve for in 501 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: the business or that we want to get to but 502 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: we never had the time to do that and actually 503 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: create the space as a team for us to come 504 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: together and solve for those things and get that off 505 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: the backlob. 506 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: So something that will happen or has happened where Fridays 507 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: come about make a time for the company. 508 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: It is happening, but for me, for the local teams, 509 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: how do we create more of that space? Right because 510 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: right now I'd say, yeah, it's a couple of hours, 511 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: but like, how do we really create a significant block 512 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: of time where we can be deliberate and intentional about 513 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: it and actually achieve something. 514 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I guess on that I'm curious from the 515 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: Hack week hacking how you work, what are some of 516 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: the changes that you are or are hoping to bring 517 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: into just being part of how you work here in Sydney. 518 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: So I mean, obviously one of those things was enlightened 519 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: Summer was an output of our hack week, and now 520 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: we're thinking about that is a summer long initiative, right 521 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: And one of the things we're doing is we're being 522 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: journal about it by open sourcing our learning and of 523 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: how we hacked our workflows and inviting other companies to 524 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: participate in that. And we also did a retro, so 525 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: we went through a retro and we were like, okay, 526 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: well what worked, what didn't work. Pomodoro as a method 527 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: work for some people, so they are implementing that as 528 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: a part of their practice. One of the things that 529 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: worked for us is we just changed our environment where 530 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: all people were sitting in terms of different teams. So 531 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: we've brought our teams together in ways that makes sense 532 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: for us and change their physical environment. One of the 533 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: things that we've now hacked as well was we had 534 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: this weekly meeting that went for an hour and we 535 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: were in auto piloted with that meeting. It was like 536 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: Monday morning ten to eleven. Everyone would come in and 537 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: we'd always, like you'd have people asking like why are 538 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: we having this meeting? What's the value we're getting at it? 539 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: So one of the things out of hack week was 540 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: we actually just blew up the meeting. We said, well, 541 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: this meeting's not working for everyone, We're not getting value 542 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: out of it, so why don't we turn that into 543 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: a weekly stand up. It's a branch stand up, and 544 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: we'll come together as a branch and we'll do a 545 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: fifteen minute stand up. We can talk about the priorities 546 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: for the week, the focus areas, and then get on 547 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: with doing what we want to do right. So that's 548 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: an example of some of the small things we've done. 549 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: I think on the larger scale, it's how do you 550 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: change the culture? How do you change the thinking where 551 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: people can challenge the status quo like we've done in 552 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: this meeting, where new people in the organization they can 553 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: feel that they can bring their ideas to the organization 554 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: from the start, And I think that's more long term 555 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: and more sustainable because then that becomes part of our culture. 556 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: What's been most challenging for you in terms of you know, 557 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: I would imagine like there would be leaders listening to 558 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: this and going that's crazy getting everyone to work from 559 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 2: BONDI for the day, or like how are you doing 560 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: four hour work days? Which I know is one of 561 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: the things as well, like what for you has been 562 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: most personally challenging because it really is like it's really 563 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: crashing a lot of ingrained assumptions around how work is 564 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: meant to work. 565 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's you've hit on a good point 566 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: around how work is meant to be because modern work 567 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: isn't working. It's broken, right, So if you can understand 568 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: that as a leader, and you can understand, well, we're 569 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: working harder, we're working longer, but productivity for the most part, 570 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: in terms of labor productivity is flatlines, right, And in 571 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: some instances going backwards, we're finding that in terms of 572 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: employee engagement, employee engagement's going down, yet burnouts going up. 573 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 1: We've got more technology in the workplace, but it's not 574 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: helping us necessarily be more productive and achieve the vision 575 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: that we want for our work lives as far as 576 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: that's concerned. So if you start from the basis of 577 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,959 Speaker 1: something's broken in the system, I need to fix it. 578 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: I don't think then it's so much a challenge in 579 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: terms of trying to challenge the normals because then what 580 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: you're doing is you're looking for solutions, and then you're 581 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: definitely open to trying different things. Right, taking the team 582 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: to Bonder, I wouldn't say that was our most productive 583 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: day for sure. I'm sure if I measured so the 584 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: number of calls that we made and the outputs of 585 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: the team, I don't think you could measure that, And 586 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: so that was a successful day. But if I look 587 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: at the things like engagement, energy levels of the team, 588 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: all of those things, those things, I'd say we definitely 589 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: moved the bar on right, And we've got this great 590 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: photo of the team. Then light the summer photo, and 591 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: when I show people that and I say, does that 592 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: look like a team that's exhausted, disengaged and you feel 593 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: like they distracted? It's not right. It's the opposite of that. 594 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: So that's that one little thing achieved that for us. 595 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: But obviously that's a single day, a single point in time. 596 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,239 Speaker 1: But again it's changing the thinking and just changing the 597 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: mindset around challenging those norms and just trying something different. 598 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: How about for you, what's what's I guess the biggest 599 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 2: thing that you took from the hack weak in terms 600 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 2: of your own behavior change. 601 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: I think Hack week for me, biggest thing that I 602 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: would have taken away this is being more aware, right, 603 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: just being more aware of my own strengths and my 604 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: own weaknesses. Right, Like I struggled with the Pomodora technique, 605 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: like to be focused for twenty five minutes. You know, 606 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: I get really scattered brain. I get distracted pretty easily. 607 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: So for me, it was really tough to be in 608 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: the zone for twenty five minutes and not go chase 609 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: the next shiny thing, right, So I think just being 610 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: aware of that and then coming back to thinking about, Okay, well, 611 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: how am I going to adjust my time and my 612 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: day and where I'm placing things knowing that you know, 613 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: I am easily distracted. You know, I worked on a 614 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: project where we worked out of this focus calm space, 615 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: and that was great for me because what I did 616 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: was I got rid of all the other applications, shut 617 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: that all down, put my phone away, and then I 618 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: found for two hours I was just in the flow. 619 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: I was in the zone of that project, and you know, 620 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: that's where I came up with my best ideas and 621 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: I and after that two hours I actually felt like 622 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: I had achieved something, I had done something meaningful. So 623 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: for me, that was one of the learnings to say, hey, 624 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm easily distracted. I need to think about hacks to 625 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: be able to get that focus and that will come 626 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: either through my diary in terms of creating that time 627 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: in my diary, but then also just getting rid of 628 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: as many of those distract actions as possible. 629 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: I like what you said, Like it makes so much 630 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 2: sense in terms of why it's actually easy to challenge 631 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 2: these norms because work is broken. But I won't know 632 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 2: what advice would you have for people listening to this 633 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: that perhaps don't have a manager or a leader that's 634 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: as open minded as you, and they're like, my workplace 635 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: is broken, Like what should they do to convince their 636 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 2: boss to actually make some changes. 637 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: It is challenging. It is challenging, especially if you work 638 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: in a multinational environment where you have to be on 639 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,959 Speaker 1: calls at unusual times of the day and it's not 640 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: like you can push back on that. It's not like 641 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: you can say, well, you know what the rest of 642 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: the world can work on Australia time. You know and 643 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: it's nine to five. So I think we broadly recognize 644 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: that work isn't the same anymore. There isn't this concept 645 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: of nine to five when we know that work is 646 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: sort of blended in our lives. My probably key piece 647 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: of advice is to have a conversation where you can 648 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: set expectations and then also come to a point of 649 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: clarity around what is the expectation of the output of 650 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: my role, And then that way you come to a 651 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: common understanding that success will be measured on an outcome, 652 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: not on an input. And I think that's part of 653 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: the change in maybe some of those cultures are still 654 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: stuck in the seventies right, where people their success is 655 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 1: measured based on their inputs and how much time they're 656 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: at the office. So they arrive at eight and they 657 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: leave at six, and that's what the definition of a 658 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: productive employee is. So I think having that conversation and 659 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: coming to a common understanding of well, success looks like 660 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: this output, right, and know that my working life it's 661 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: going to be a little bit random because these are 662 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: the demands of our lives. So you know, if I 663 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: need to and I've got two young daughters, so you know, 664 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: I go do daycare drop off, and you know that 665 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: that leads into quite unquote traditional work time. So I'll 666 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: get in on a Wednesday, I'll get in at ten 667 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: am because you know, I've made the time to take 668 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: my daughter to day care and sit there and read 669 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: a book and spend a bit of time with her. 670 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, people know that, right, They know that, you 671 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: know I'll be there that at the office at that 672 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: time and sort of set that expectation with them. 673 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 3: M yeah, cool. I like that. 674 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 2: My final question enlightened, some enlightened some How can people 675 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 2: get involved? 676 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we are running a series of workshops and 677 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: I know we have a website. Okay, awesome, So so 678 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: we're running a series of workshops which were unting people 679 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: to participate in will share at retros, We'll run some 680 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: we'll have some ideas around ways that people can hack 681 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: their workflow. And again, I think it's just a starting 682 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: point for a lot of individuals and a lot of 683 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: organizations in terms of well, how can they get creative 684 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: around working in a different manner and how can they 685 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: get creative around hacking their own workflows? And again, yeah, 686 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: I love this concept of us open sourcing that right, 687 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: so it's our learnings, it's the winds. It's also the 688 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: losses or things that didn't go too well for us 689 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: as well. 690 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's awesome. 691 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 2: Will those workshops be in Sydney for all over Australia? 692 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 2: First one will be in Sydney, first. 693 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: One in Sydney. And obviously I think we're also talking 694 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: about how can we virtualize it, So how can we 695 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: do it in a way that if you're in a 696 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 1: remote area and the capital isn't accessible, that you can 697 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: still participate in that. And we'll have a downloadable toolkit 698 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: that people can take and they can run their own 699 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: workshops and have the on in line summer. 700 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 2: Awesome, fantastic, and I will be linking to all that 701 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 2: in the show notes. So, Dane, it's been awesome chatting 702 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 2: with you about your working life and how things are changing. Yeah, 703 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 2: very inspiring. So thanks for your time. 704 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: Cheers, thank you. 705 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 2: So that is it for today's show. I hope you 706 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 2: liked my chat with Dean and got. 707 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 3: Some useful tips. 708 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 2: You know. It's particularly interested hearing about his MAKEU versus 709 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 2: manager time split. So if you're a maker and a manager, 710 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 2: I hope there was some useful advice that you could 711 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 2: take there and as usual, if you are enjoying how 712 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,879 Speaker 2: I work, I would love it if you would take 713 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 2: five ten seconds to leave a review in Apple Podcasts 714 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: or wherever you're listening to your podcast. So you might 715 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 2: leave a star rating, which is awesome, or you might 716 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: say a few words and thank you to everybody that 717 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 2: has left reviews. 718 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 3: You really do make my day. 719 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: It's so lovely getting listener feedback. So that's it for 720 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 2: today and I'll see you next time.