WEBVTT - Summer series: The AFL's first openly bisexual player (Pt 1)

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is this is the Daily OS.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. My name

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<v Speaker 1>is Sam Kozlowski. And on today's episode of our TDA

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<v Speaker 1>summer series, we thought we'd bring you what was probably

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<v Speaker 1>one of our proudest moments as an organization, and that

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<v Speaker 1>was bringing an exclusive interview with ex AFL player Mitch

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<v Speaker 1>Brown to light. In that interview, Mitch told us and

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<v Speaker 1>told Australia that he was the first openly gay or

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<v Speaker 1>bisexual male AFL player in the game's one hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>twenty nine year history. It was an incredible moment and

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<v Speaker 1>if we look back on that moment now, we can

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<v Speaker 1>just see how much progress already has been made in

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<v Speaker 1>this conversation and the continued work that Mitch has done

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<v Speaker 1>since his interview with The Daily OS. For me personally,

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<v Speaker 1>it was one of the most nerving interviews I've done

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<v Speaker 1>in my years at TDA, because the stakes were high

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<v Speaker 1>and it was honor to be trusted with Mitch's story.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's that chat with Mitch and I and I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's something that we'll all look back on as a

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<v Speaker 1>key moment in twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 3>You're right nervous A smile when I'm nervous. I'm nervous too.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a good TRD to have, Mitch. Thanks so much

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<v Speaker 3>for joining us on the Daily Odds today. No worries.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was about this time last week that I

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<v Speaker 1>got a DM from you on Instagram. Take me through

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<v Speaker 1>the hours that led up to sending that message and

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<v Speaker 1>what the message said. The message it wasn't so much

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<v Speaker 1>how as it was.

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<v Speaker 2>A moment in time for me, and there was seconds,

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<v Speaker 2>but leading up to that, it's been years of you know, emotions,

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<v Speaker 2>feelings trapped in.

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<v Speaker 3>My head, in my soul, in my heart for so long.

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<v Speaker 2>And I sent you a DM on Instagram after I

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<v Speaker 2>saw a video when you're talking about the recent homophobic

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<v Speaker 2>slur and the AFL and the reactions that came with that.

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<v Speaker 2>And my text message said, Hey, Sam, I played in

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<v Speaker 2>the AFL for ten years for the West Coast Eagules

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm a bisexual man.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's all it said. That's a really big thing

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<v Speaker 3>to say.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it feels amazing now, you know when I sent

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the moments that led up to that, I

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<v Speaker 2>had this feeling of peace, but more importantly comfort and confidence,

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<v Speaker 2>confidence in who I am, my identity, and comfort with

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<v Speaker 2>share that and the people have around me.

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<v Speaker 1>There's been one hundred and twenty five years of vfl

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<v Speaker 1>AFL competition. That's tens of thousands of male players.

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<v Speaker 3>You are the first.

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<v Speaker 1>Past or present player to say I'm gay or I'm

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<v Speaker 1>bisexual publicly. Why do you think it's taken that long?

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<v Speaker 2>And you ask me that question, it's quite sad to

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<v Speaker 2>hear that, you know, you know, you start reflecting on

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<v Speaker 2>why is it taken me so long? Before you go

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<v Speaker 2>and question why is it taken the community so long?

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<v Speaker 2>And I get like the generations, not just how the

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<v Speaker 2>wider community fear feel about the queer community, but just everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Things change over the generations. We learn, we grow as

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<v Speaker 2>a society. We're more educated than ever, we have more

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<v Speaker 2>empathy than ever, and that correlates to the timeline, the

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<v Speaker 2>amount of time of why you know, being openly gay

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<v Speaker 2>or bisexual as a Australian rules footballer pastor present has

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<v Speaker 2>taken so long?

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<v Speaker 3>Why do you think it's taken you so long? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>For me, you know, society and definitely the communities and

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<v Speaker 2>the environments that I grew up with. I have a

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful family and I've lived a very privileged life as

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<v Speaker 2>a white male in our society and things have come

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<v Speaker 2>to me quite easily. So I just want to acknowledge that,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, and I want to acknowledge it. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not speaking on behalf of the queer community. I'm only

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<v Speaker 2>speaking for my own experiences, lived experiences. But as I

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<v Speaker 2>was growing up, I was involved and you know, as

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<v Speaker 2>a male here in Australia, most of us are in

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<v Speaker 2>environments of hyper masculinity.

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<v Speaker 3>So what I mean by that is.

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in Ballarat and the country played football

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<v Speaker 2>when I was young, in juniors only with boys. The

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<v Speaker 2>young girls didn't have a chance to play football our coaches.

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<v Speaker 2>There was always men dads. I went to primary school

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<v Speaker 2>in the country and then went to high school to

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<v Speaker 2>an all boys Catholic school, and then as a seventeen

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<v Speaker 2>year old young man, flew across the country and stepped

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<v Speaker 2>into an extra hyper masculine environment and that is at

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<v Speaker 2>an AFL footballer.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's when you were drafted. You were drafted to

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<v Speaker 1>the West Coast Eagles and you went across the Perth

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<v Speaker 1>at seventeen seventeen. Was it around then that you started

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<v Speaker 1>questioning or thinking through your sexuality.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really it's a really hard one to answer because

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<v Speaker 2>these thoughts have come up, questioning and you know, part

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<v Speaker 2>of my experience has been suppressing that for so long,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, unconscious, like it's you don't even think about

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<v Speaker 2>when you do suppress it.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I grew up as a man in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>I leave home, I will find a girlfriend and I'll

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<v Speaker 2>get married, and that's that's how we do things.

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<v Speaker 3>And in the environments that you're in, whether it's a

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<v Speaker 3>high school, in the group chats, recess or in the

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<v Speaker 3>locker room as a footballer, as an adult, you just

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<v Speaker 3>it was never once an opportunity to speak openly or

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<v Speaker 3>explore your feelings or my feelings or questions in a

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<v Speaker 3>safe way.

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<v Speaker 1>Was it just something that was absent or was it discouraged?

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<v Speaker 3>Do you think discouraged? What do you mean by that?

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<v Speaker 2>We all know that the locker room chat, the chats

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<v Speaker 2>in the spa, and so I'm speaking about AFL football

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<v Speaker 2>environment now and the chats we're all geared around. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>who did everyone pick up on the weekend or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>she's pretty hot or she's this and that, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was never once ildn't even it wasn't even in my

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<v Speaker 2>mind to share or ask the question, or bring things

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<v Speaker 2>up or even talk about the queer community at all.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, you know, it was always something that you'd

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<v Speaker 2>keep inside because if you did put out a question

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<v Speaker 2>or you did talk about you know, I'd love David

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<v Speaker 2>Bowie the artist, the music in his music. And even

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<v Speaker 2>if I was to talk about David Bowie as a

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<v Speaker 2>talented artist, as someone to aspire me to be truly

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<v Speaker 2>yourself and happy with whoever you are, the conversation would

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<v Speaker 2>always steer back about his sexuality.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think the thing that's really interesting to me

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<v Speaker 1>is that I think I'm right in describing these guys

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<v Speaker 1>also as some of your best mates and housemates at

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<v Speaker 1>the time and lifelong friends. Explain the disconnect then, though,

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<v Speaker 1>that you did have intimate relationships with this group of players,

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<v Speaker 1>but couldn't or didn't talk about this key part of

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<v Speaker 1>of you.

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<v Speaker 2>You learn very quickly just to say nothing. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I was always very very good at putting things deep

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<v Speaker 2>inside of me, not just about my sexuality but about everything.

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<v Speaker 3>I could bury them so deep, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Most people in my position can do that better than

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<v Speaker 2>anyone and you move on. And especially in a high

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<v Speaker 2>performance environment like the AFL, it's so clear your task

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<v Speaker 2>and that is to train hard, get better, win games,

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<v Speaker 2>win a premiership. So it's really easy to not bring

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<v Speaker 2>your personal life into things, to stay quiet, to not

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<v Speaker 2>share too much of yourself, because you know you can

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<v Speaker 2>easily still be an amazing team member and not reveal

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<v Speaker 2>yourself your true identity, and still be successful. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there was one time I did share my questions about

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<v Speaker 2>my sexuality with a teammate or with you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>person in my footballing community in Western Australia, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was just a sort of casual question around how do

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<v Speaker 2>you know if you're gay? How do you know if

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<v Speaker 2>you're bisexual? And I remember it happened a long ago,

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<v Speaker 2>a long time ago, in two thousand and seven, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was laugh laughed at.

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<v Speaker 3>It was almost like, that's a funny question. You've been funny, Mitch.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the conversation just rolled on, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>made as a joke, and I remember how that made

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<v Speaker 2>me feel, and.

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<v Speaker 3>I swore never to bring that up over again.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you were nineteen in two thousand and seven. That's

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<v Speaker 1>a really important age to be asking that question, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure a really important age to be hearing action

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<v Speaker 1>like that to it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I've had so much time to think about this,

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<v Speaker 2>to sit with my emotions and feelings over the years.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, sorry, what was that questioning?

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<v Speaker 1>Why don't we talk about on the field. I think

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<v Speaker 1>you've painted a really good picture of the locker room.

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<v Speaker 1>Talk to me about combat on the field and the

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<v Speaker 1>role of homophobic comments in your playing career as almost

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<v Speaker 1>a weapon to be used against your opposition.

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<v Speaker 3>I think.

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<v Speaker 2>On the field, you're trying to beat your opponent, right,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to win, and the best way to do that

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<v Speaker 2>is to strow you show your stress. Of One of

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<v Speaker 2>the ways you do that is to belittle your opponent,

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<v Speaker 2>bring them down. And you do it physically, yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>then you can do it verbally as well. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you can say all sorts of things. And you hear

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<v Speaker 2>that on the field every single week, every single game.

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<v Speaker 2>You hear that in your workplace, on the building site

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<v Speaker 2>at schools.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I think.

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<v Speaker 2>This year, you know, it's it's very known, it's become

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<v Speaker 2>an AFL problem, but it's an Australian man's problem.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you remember any times where you had homophobic comments

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<v Speaker 1>directed at you?

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<v Speaker 3>Countless?

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<v Speaker 2>And it wasn't because you know people you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>straight presenting man, and you know it was used because

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<v Speaker 2>a gay man, a bisexual man, someone in the queer

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<v Speaker 2>community was seen as someone so small and low and weak.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, for a man in Australia, you know, that's

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<v Speaker 2>probably the weakest thing you could be. You know, certainly

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<v Speaker 2>when I was growing up at school, the word gay

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<v Speaker 2>was thrown around constantly. And we're an all boys school,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know, to belittle someone or to hurt someone,

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<v Speaker 2>you would say, oh, you're gay, and it just became

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<v Speaker 2>part of the normal conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>What was it like hearing those homophobic comments directed at

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<v Speaker 1>you and internalizing that homophobia while you were navigating your

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<v Speaker 1>own identity in your twenties.

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right, Sam, Like you know, I went, most

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<v Speaker 2>young people finished school and go to university, go traveling

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<v Speaker 2>or a gap year and have the time and space

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<v Speaker 2>to find your people, your community, your queer community, or

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<v Speaker 2>explore and you know, for only speak because this is

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<v Speaker 2>my experience for footballers, I went into this hyper masculine

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<v Speaker 2>environment not being able to have the chance to explore

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<v Speaker 2>my sexuality. When you hear these comments and if to

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<v Speaker 2>someone else or in general conversation or directed at you,

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<v Speaker 2>you've suppressed these feelings so much because that culture is

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<v Speaker 2>so strong around being a strong male in their eyes

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<v Speaker 2>that you forget, You forget who you are and your identity.

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<v Speaker 2>This notion around a queer player being in the AFL

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<v Speaker 2>AFL men's has come up time and time again. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I really want this to be an anti climax or

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<v Speaker 2>another event.

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<v Speaker 1>The reality is that you retired many years ago and

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<v Speaker 1>we're still in relatively the same position with the frequency

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<v Speaker 1>of homophobic talking points in the AFL. Has anything changed

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<v Speaker 1>since you played?

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<v Speaker 3>Do you think?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I can't speak for the locker rooms down, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know the fact that we're hearing more publicly about

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<v Speaker 2>a homophobic slur is a good thing because it is

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<v Speaker 2>being called out. I remember when this issue, I say issue,

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<v Speaker 2>when this was talked brought up. At one time when

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<v Speaker 2>I was playing around no gay men in the AFL

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<v Speaker 2>were sitting in the massage room and there was just

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<v Speaker 2>the general conversation around the issues in the AFL, and

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<v Speaker 2>this came up, and I remember two people having a

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<v Speaker 2>conversation around how they would feel having a shower next

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<v Speaker 2>to a gay man. One of the players referred it,

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<v Speaker 2>I'd rather be in a cage full of lines than

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<v Speaker 2>have a shower next to a gay man. And There's

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<v Speaker 2>been so many times in my life that I've seen

0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.480
<v Speaker 2>things or heard things and not said anything. And I

0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:20.240
<v Speaker 2>didn't say anything in fear of people thinking that I

0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:27.200
<v Speaker 2>was gay or bisexual. I remember that feeling so like,

0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:32.360
<v Speaker 2>it's so strong, and I didn't do anything about that.

0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a lot of fear to hold. Talk to

0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.840
<v Speaker 1>me about them where you began to deconstruct that fear.

0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:48.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, just speaking about that locker room from that day,

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Like I part of the conversations that we used to

0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.600
<v Speaker 2>have in the locker room and in the spas and

0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the swimming pools, and is like, oh, you know who

0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:00.400
<v Speaker 2>is gay in this club?

0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh, we think it's that it's definitely that person. They

0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:07.160
<v Speaker 3>haven't had a girlfriend for a while or ever. So

0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:12.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, even that those conversations, that culture, that behavior,

0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, sitting there hearing that again, you're bury it

0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:20.600
<v Speaker 3>even further. You know. I got to the the end.

0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.520
<v Speaker 2>Of my career and I was asked to play on

0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:28.160
<v Speaker 2>for a couple more years, and I was over it.

0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:28.960
<v Speaker 3>I was done.

0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 1>How much of a role did this conversation we're having

0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:33.960
<v Speaker 1>today and the topics in it, How much of a

0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.640
<v Speaker 1>role did that have in you making that call to

0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:37.360
<v Speaker 1>end your career?

0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:37.920
<v Speaker 3>Huge?

0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:42.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, and not so much about you know, my sexuality

0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:43.440
<v Speaker 2>is only one part of me.

0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.040
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of part of the parts of Mitch.

0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>And one of the biggest reasons I wanted to finish

0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:56.800
<v Speaker 2>up playing AFL was to meet new people. I craved

0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.840
<v Speaker 2>talking to someone and not being judged. I craved the

0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:05.880
<v Speaker 2>ability to choose who I wanted to be around rather

0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:10.359
<v Speaker 2>than to fit in to a team. And you know, ultimately,

0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 2>in all aspects of my life, not just my sexuality.

0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.000
<v Speaker 2>That's why I was decided to finish. And when I finished,

0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.399
<v Speaker 2>I never looked back on my career and football and

0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.720
<v Speaker 2>I played for ten years, so there's enough there to,

0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, have some sort of wisdom, and I look

0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.720
<v Speaker 2>back and I don't. I'm not disgruntled. I didn't hate

0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:39.160
<v Speaker 2>my experience as a footballer. I loved it. But I'm

0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:43.880
<v Speaker 2>so ready to finish and move on. And it took

0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:52.200
<v Speaker 2>me a while to start to deconstruct this strong identity

0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:56.199
<v Speaker 2>that was stowed upon me by the environments that I

0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.520
<v Speaker 2>was in, that I truly believed in, like I bought

0:17:59.520 --> 0:17:59.879
<v Speaker 2>into that.

0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.240
<v Speaker 3>The fear was so strong, and the fear of being

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:10.520
<v Speaker 3>caught out, yeah, so strong that you don't dare scared

0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:16.240
<v Speaker 3>of being outed or someone to call you gay. And

0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.679
<v Speaker 3>then because I wasn't ready, I wasn't confident in my

0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:24.080
<v Speaker 3>identity and who I was, my natural reaction would be

0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 3>to suppress that, to you know, project my masculinity even more.

0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.679
<v Speaker 3>And I wasn't ready for that. I didn't understand. I

0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:36.200
<v Speaker 3>didn't have the.

0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Confidence in my identity as a bisexual man.

0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.160
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us for the first half of our

0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 1>conversation with Mitch Brown. If you need support or someone

0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.080
<v Speaker 1>to talk to at any time, you can contact Lifeline

0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.399
<v Speaker 1>on thirteen eleven fourteen or q life on one eight

0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.200
<v Speaker 1>hundred and one eight four five two seven. We'll bring

0:18:55.240 --> 0:19:01.760
<v Speaker 1>you the second half of that chat tomorrow. My name

0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.080
<v Speaker 1>is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Calkatin

0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:06.520
<v Speaker 1>woman from Gadighl Country.

0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.480
<v Speaker 2>The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.560
<v Speaker 2>the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all.

0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Aboriginal and torrest rate island and nations.

0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.000
<v Speaker 2>We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:20.320
<v Speaker 2>both past and present