Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily OS.
Speaker 2: This is the Daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.
Speaker 1: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. My name
Speaker 1: is Sam Kozlowski. And on today's episode of our TDA
Speaker 1: summer series, we thought we'd bring you what was probably
Speaker 1: one of our proudest moments as an organization, and that
Speaker 1: was bringing an exclusive interview with ex AFL player Mitch
Speaker 1: Brown to light. In that interview, Mitch told us and
Speaker 1: told Australia that he was the first openly gay or
Speaker 1: bisexual male AFL player in the game's one hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty nine year history. It was an incredible moment and
Speaker 1: if we look back on that moment now, we can
Speaker 1: just see how much progress already has been made in
Speaker 1: this conversation and the continued work that Mitch has done
Speaker 1: since his interview with The Daily OS. For me personally,
Speaker 1: it was one of the most nerving interviews I've done
Speaker 1: in my years at TDA, because the stakes were high
Speaker 1: and it was honor to be trusted with Mitch's story.
Speaker 1: Here's that chat with Mitch and I and I think
Speaker 1: it's something that we'll all look back on as a
Speaker 1: key moment in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: You're right nervous A smile when I'm nervous. I'm nervous too.
Speaker 3: It's a good TRD to have, Mitch. Thanks so much
Speaker 3: for joining us on the Daily Odds today. No worries.
Speaker 1: So I was about this time last week that I
Speaker 1: got a DM from you on Instagram. Take me through
Speaker 1: the hours that led up to sending that message and
Speaker 1: what the message said. The message it wasn't so much
Speaker 1: how as it was.
Speaker 2: A moment in time for me, and there was seconds,
Speaker 2: but leading up to that, it's been years of you know, emotions,
Speaker 2: feelings trapped in.
Speaker 3: My head, in my soul, in my heart for so long.
Speaker 2: And I sent you a DM on Instagram after I
Speaker 2: saw a video when you're talking about the recent homophobic
Speaker 2: slur and the AFL and the reactions that came with that.
Speaker 2: And my text message said, Hey, Sam, I played in
Speaker 2: the AFL for ten years for the West Coast Eagules
Speaker 2: and I'm a bisexual man.
Speaker 3: And that's all it said. That's a really big thing
Speaker 3: to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels amazing now, you know when I sent
Speaker 2: you know, the moments that led up to that, I
Speaker 2: had this feeling of peace, but more importantly comfort and confidence,
Speaker 2: confidence in who I am, my identity, and comfort with
Speaker 2: share that and the people have around me.
Speaker 1: There's been one hundred and twenty five years of vfl
Speaker 1: AFL competition. That's tens of thousands of male players.
Speaker 3: You are the first.
Speaker 1: Past or present player to say I'm gay or I'm
Speaker 1: bisexual publicly. Why do you think it's taken that long?
Speaker 2: And you ask me that question, it's quite sad to
Speaker 2: hear that, you know, you know, you start reflecting on
Speaker 2: why is it taken me so long? Before you go
Speaker 2: and question why is it taken the community so long?
Speaker 2: And I get like the generations, not just how the
Speaker 2: wider community fear feel about the queer community, but just everything.
Speaker 2: Things change over the generations. We learn, we grow as
Speaker 2: a society. We're more educated than ever, we have more
Speaker 2: empathy than ever, and that correlates to the timeline, the
Speaker 2: amount of time of why you know, being openly gay
Speaker 2: or bisexual as a Australian rules footballer pastor present has
Speaker 2: taken so long?
Speaker 3: Why do you think it's taken you so long? Yeah?
Speaker 2: For me, you know, society and definitely the communities and
Speaker 2: the environments that I grew up with. I have a
Speaker 2: beautiful family and I've lived a very privileged life as
Speaker 2: a white male in our society and things have come
Speaker 2: to me quite easily. So I just want to acknowledge that,
Speaker 2: and you know, and I want to acknowledge it. I'm
Speaker 2: not speaking on behalf of the queer community. I'm only
Speaker 2: speaking for my own experiences, lived experiences. But as I
Speaker 2: was growing up, I was involved and you know, as
Speaker 2: a male here in Australia, most of us are in
Speaker 2: environments of hyper masculinity.
Speaker 3: So what I mean by that is.
Speaker 2: I grew up in Ballarat and the country played football
Speaker 2: when I was young, in juniors only with boys. The
Speaker 2: young girls didn't have a chance to play football our coaches.
Speaker 2: There was always men dads. I went to primary school
Speaker 2: in the country and then went to high school to
Speaker 2: an all boys Catholic school, and then as a seventeen
Speaker 2: year old young man, flew across the country and stepped
Speaker 2: into an extra hyper masculine environment and that is at
Speaker 2: an AFL footballer.
Speaker 1: So that's when you were drafted. You were drafted to
Speaker 1: the West Coast Eagles and you went across the Perth
Speaker 1: at seventeen seventeen. Was it around then that you started
Speaker 1: questioning or thinking through your sexuality.
Speaker 2: It's really it's a really hard one to answer because
Speaker 2: these thoughts have come up, questioning and you know, part
Speaker 2: of my experience has been suppressing that for so long,
Speaker 2: you know, unconscious, like it's you don't even think about
Speaker 2: when you do suppress it.
Speaker 3: You know, I grew up as a man in Australia.
Speaker 2: I leave home, I will find a girlfriend and I'll
Speaker 2: get married, and that's that's how we do things.
Speaker 3: And in the environments that you're in, whether it's a
Speaker 3: high school, in the group chats, recess or in the
Speaker 3: locker room as a footballer, as an adult, you just
Speaker 3: it was never once an opportunity to speak openly or
Speaker 3: explore your feelings or my feelings or questions in a
Speaker 3: safe way.
Speaker 1: Was it just something that was absent or was it discouraged?
Speaker 3: Do you think discouraged? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: We all know that the locker room chat, the chats
Speaker 2: in the spa, and so I'm speaking about AFL football
Speaker 2: environment now and the chats we're all geared around. You know,
Speaker 2: who did everyone pick up on the weekend or you know,
Speaker 2: she's pretty hot or she's this and that, and it
Speaker 2: was never once ildn't even it wasn't even in my
Speaker 2: mind to share or ask the question, or bring things
Speaker 2: up or even talk about the queer community at all.
Speaker 2: In fact, you know, it was always something that you'd
Speaker 2: keep inside because if you did put out a question
Speaker 2: or you did talk about you know, I'd love David
Speaker 2: Bowie the artist, the music in his music. And even
Speaker 2: if I was to talk about David Bowie as a
Speaker 2: talented artist, as someone to aspire me to be truly
Speaker 2: yourself and happy with whoever you are, the conversation would
Speaker 2: always steer back about his sexuality.
Speaker 1: And I think the thing that's really interesting to me
Speaker 1: is that I think I'm right in describing these guys
Speaker 1: also as some of your best mates and housemates at
Speaker 1: the time and lifelong friends. Explain the disconnect then, though,
Speaker 1: that you did have intimate relationships with this group of players,
Speaker 1: but couldn't or didn't talk about this key part of
Speaker 1: of you.
Speaker 2: You learn very quickly just to say nothing. And you know,
Speaker 2: I was always very very good at putting things deep
Speaker 2: inside of me, not just about my sexuality but about everything.
Speaker 3: I could bury them so deep, and.
Speaker 2: Most people in my position can do that better than
Speaker 2: anyone and you move on. And especially in a high
Speaker 2: performance environment like the AFL, it's so clear your task
Speaker 2: and that is to train hard, get better, win games,
Speaker 2: win a premiership. So it's really easy to not bring
Speaker 2: your personal life into things, to stay quiet, to not
Speaker 2: share too much of yourself, because you know you can
Speaker 2: easily still be an amazing team member and not reveal
Speaker 2: yourself your true identity, and still be successful. You know,
Speaker 2: there was one time I did share my questions about
Speaker 2: my sexuality with a teammate or with you know, a
Speaker 2: person in my footballing community in Western Australia, and it
Speaker 2: was just a sort of casual question around how do
Speaker 2: you know if you're gay? How do you know if
Speaker 2: you're bisexual? And I remember it happened a long ago,
Speaker 2: a long time ago, in two thousand and seven, but
Speaker 2: it was laugh laughed at.
Speaker 3: It was almost like, that's a funny question. You've been funny, Mitch.
Speaker 2: And then the conversation just rolled on, but it was
Speaker 2: made as a joke, and I remember how that made
Speaker 2: me feel, and.
Speaker 3: I swore never to bring that up over again.
Speaker 1: Well, you were nineteen in two thousand and seven. That's
Speaker 1: a really important age to be asking that question, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure a really important age to be hearing action
Speaker 1: like that to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've had so much time to think about this,
Speaker 2: to sit with my emotions and feelings over the years.
Speaker 2: And you know, sorry, what was that questioning?
Speaker 1: Why don't we talk about on the field. I think
Speaker 1: you've painted a really good picture of the locker room.
Speaker 1: Talk to me about combat on the field and the
Speaker 1: role of homophobic comments in your playing career as almost
Speaker 1: a weapon to be used against your opposition.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: On the field, you're trying to beat your opponent, right,
Speaker 2: trying to win, and the best way to do that
Speaker 2: is to strow you show your stress. Of One of
Speaker 2: the ways you do that is to belittle your opponent,
Speaker 2: bring them down. And you do it physically, yeah, and
Speaker 2: then you can do it verbally as well. You know,
Speaker 2: you can say all sorts of things. And you hear
Speaker 2: that on the field every single week, every single game.
Speaker 2: You hear that in your workplace, on the building site
Speaker 2: at schools.
Speaker 3: You know, I think.
Speaker 2: This year, you know, it's it's very known, it's become
Speaker 2: an AFL problem, but it's an Australian man's problem.
Speaker 1: Do you remember any times where you had homophobic comments
Speaker 1: directed at you?
Speaker 3: Countless?
Speaker 2: And it wasn't because you know people you know, I'm
Speaker 2: straight presenting man, and you know it was used because
Speaker 2: a gay man, a bisexual man, someone in the queer
Speaker 2: community was seen as someone so small and low and weak.
Speaker 2: You know, for a man in Australia, you know, that's
Speaker 2: probably the weakest thing you could be. You know, certainly
Speaker 2: when I was growing up at school, the word gay
Speaker 2: was thrown around constantly. And we're an all boys school,
Speaker 2: so you know, to belittle someone or to hurt someone,
Speaker 2: you would say, oh, you're gay, and it just became
Speaker 2: part of the normal conversation.
Speaker 1: What was it like hearing those homophobic comments directed at
Speaker 1: you and internalizing that homophobia while you were navigating your
Speaker 1: own identity in your twenties.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, Sam, Like you know, I went, most
Speaker 2: young people finished school and go to university, go traveling
Speaker 2: or a gap year and have the time and space
Speaker 2: to find your people, your community, your queer community, or
Speaker 2: explore and you know, for only speak because this is
Speaker 2: my experience for footballers, I went into this hyper masculine
Speaker 2: environment not being able to have the chance to explore
Speaker 2: my sexuality. When you hear these comments and if to
Speaker 2: someone else or in general conversation or directed at you,
Speaker 2: you've suppressed these feelings so much because that culture is
Speaker 2: so strong around being a strong male in their eyes
Speaker 2: that you forget, You forget who you are and your identity.
Speaker 2: This notion around a queer player being in the AFL
Speaker 2: AFL men's has come up time and time again. You know,
Speaker 2: I really want this to be an anti climax or
Speaker 2: another event.
Speaker 1: The reality is that you retired many years ago and
Speaker 1: we're still in relatively the same position with the frequency
Speaker 1: of homophobic talking points in the AFL. Has anything changed
Speaker 1: since you played?
Speaker 3: Do you think?
Speaker 2: Well, I can't speak for the locker rooms down, but
Speaker 2: you know the fact that we're hearing more publicly about
Speaker 2: a homophobic slur is a good thing because it is
Speaker 2: being called out. I remember when this issue, I say issue,
Speaker 2: when this was talked brought up. At one time when
Speaker 2: I was playing around no gay men in the AFL
Speaker 2: were sitting in the massage room and there was just
Speaker 2: the general conversation around the issues in the AFL, and
Speaker 2: this came up, and I remember two people having a
Speaker 2: conversation around how they would feel having a shower next
Speaker 2: to a gay man. One of the players referred it,
Speaker 2: I'd rather be in a cage full of lines than
Speaker 2: have a shower next to a gay man. And There's
Speaker 2: been so many times in my life that I've seen
Speaker 2: things or heard things and not said anything. And I
Speaker 2: didn't say anything in fear of people thinking that I
Speaker 2: was gay or bisexual. I remember that feeling so like,
Speaker 2: it's so strong, and I didn't do anything about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a lot of fear to hold. Talk to
Speaker 1: me about them where you began to deconstruct that fear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, just speaking about that locker room from that day,
Speaker 2: Like I part of the conversations that we used to
Speaker 2: have in the locker room and in the spas and
Speaker 2: the swimming pools, and is like, oh, you know who
Speaker 2: is gay in this club?
Speaker 3: Oh, we think it's that it's definitely that person. They
Speaker 3: haven't had a girlfriend for a while or ever. So
Speaker 3: you know, even that those conversations, that culture, that behavior,
Speaker 3: you know, sitting there hearing that again, you're bury it
Speaker 3: even further. You know. I got to the the end.
Speaker 2: Of my career and I was asked to play on
Speaker 2: for a couple more years, and I was over it.
Speaker 3: I was done.
Speaker 1: How much of a role did this conversation we're having
Speaker 1: today and the topics in it, How much of a
Speaker 1: role did that have in you making that call to
Speaker 1: end your career?
Speaker 3: Huge?
Speaker 2: Right, and not so much about you know, my sexuality
Speaker 2: is only one part of me.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of part of the parts of Mitch.
Speaker 2: And one of the biggest reasons I wanted to finish
Speaker 2: up playing AFL was to meet new people. I craved
Speaker 2: talking to someone and not being judged. I craved the
Speaker 2: ability to choose who I wanted to be around rather
Speaker 2: than to fit in to a team. And you know, ultimately,
Speaker 2: in all aspects of my life, not just my sexuality.
Speaker 2: That's why I was decided to finish. And when I finished,
Speaker 2: I never looked back on my career and football and
Speaker 2: I played for ten years, so there's enough there to,
Speaker 2: you know, have some sort of wisdom, and I look
Speaker 2: back and I don't. I'm not disgruntled. I didn't hate
Speaker 2: my experience as a footballer. I loved it. But I'm
Speaker 2: so ready to finish and move on. And it took
Speaker 2: me a while to start to deconstruct this strong identity
Speaker 2: that was stowed upon me by the environments that I
Speaker 2: was in, that I truly believed in, like I bought
Speaker 2: into that.
Speaker 3: The fear was so strong, and the fear of being
Speaker 3: caught out, yeah, so strong that you don't dare scared
Speaker 3: of being outed or someone to call you gay. And
Speaker 3: then because I wasn't ready, I wasn't confident in my
Speaker 3: identity and who I was, my natural reaction would be
Speaker 3: to suppress that, to you know, project my masculinity even more.
Speaker 3: And I wasn't ready for that. I didn't understand. I
Speaker 3: didn't have the.
Speaker 2: Confidence in my identity as a bisexual man.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us for the first half of our
Speaker 1: conversation with Mitch Brown. If you need support or someone
Speaker 1: to talk to at any time, you can contact Lifeline
Speaker 1: on thirteen eleven fourteen or q life on one eight
Speaker 1: hundred and one eight four five two seven. We'll bring
Speaker 1: you the second half of that chat tomorrow. My name
Speaker 1: is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Calkatin
Speaker 1: woman from Gadighl Country.
Speaker 2: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on
Speaker 2: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all.
Speaker 1: Aboriginal and torrest rate island and nations.
Speaker 2: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,
Speaker 2: both past and present