1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: New Jersey and Amanda jam Nation. 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 2: Imagine not being able to speak in public, not being 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: able to read, or leave the house on your own. 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 2: For women in Afghanistan, that's a reality under the new 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: Taliban rule. To help us understand this situation better, we're 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: joined by Ravena Shamdacini, a UN spokeswoman who has become 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: a voice for the voiceless when it comes to the 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 2: appalling state of women's rights in Afghanistan. 9 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: Ravena, Hello, Hi, thanks for covering this important story. 10 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: Look, I've heard the stories along the years since the 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 2: Taliban took over, but why has this ratcheted up? What's 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: going on now? 13 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: Well, it's just going from bad to worse. If you're 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: trying to make sense of this, there is no sense. 15 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: Afghanistan is a place where twenty three million people will 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: require humanitarian assistance, and yet half of the population is 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: being completely disempowered, not allowed to educate themselves. Even those 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: who have been very well educated are not allowed to 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: work and contribute to the economy. This new law is 20 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: being presented as in line with Islamic values, but you know, 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: Islamic scholars themselves, are, to put it mildly dubious, about 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: these claims. It really seems to be an entrenchment of 23 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: power by the most radical of the Taliban. 24 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 3: And when Joe Biden got out of Afghanistan, he's then 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 3: left it to the Taliban, the Talibans and on now 26 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 3: we're going to be where the new Taliban, we're going 27 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 3: to be a moderate Taliban. This is definitely not the case. 28 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: It's definitely not the case. Promises were made by them 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: to you know, promote a more moderate kind of governance 30 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: in line with Islamic values, but yet moderate, and they 31 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: were seeing the exact opposite. First it was secondary school education, 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: university education. Then it was the right to work, and 33 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: now we're seeing even just the right for women to 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: speak in public being targeted. And of course men are 35 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: not being spared either. There are you know, many very 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: repressive laws that impact on men as well. You have 37 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: children who are being impacted, male and female, female headed households. 38 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: For example. You can think about how women who were 39 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: meant to support the elderly and their family, their extended families, 40 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: their children are no longer able to do that. So 41 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: it's really having a huge impact on the entire economy 42 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: and social structure in Afghanistan. 43 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: So what exactly are these new rules? Women can't speak 44 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: in public, but what are the ones that are stopping 45 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: women helping their elderly parents, etc. 46 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: Well, women are not allowed to work either. Even women 47 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 1: who actually work for the United Nations were not allowed 48 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 1: to come to the office, so they're not allowed to 49 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: be productive members of society and earn a living. And 50 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: then you've got women who you know were in political 51 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: office for example, women are not allowed to hold political 52 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: office anymore. Now you have women who previously as well, 53 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: there were rules imposing the wearing of the full worka 54 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: meaning the face being covered as well, and this has 55 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: now been enshrined in law by the defacto authorities. So 56 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: the full worka cover from head to toe, including faces. 57 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: There's a band for transport providers on transporting women unless 58 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: they're accompanied by a male relative. Think about when you 59 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: need to rush a family member to the hospital. How 60 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: are you going to do that if you don't have 61 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: a male relative who can accompany you. And literally the 62 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: prohibition of women's voices being held heard in public at. 63 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: All, it's so hard for us to understand that. How 64 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: are women in Afghanistan dealing with these new laws. How 65 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: do they find a place for the anger? 66 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: You can only imagine, can't you. I mean, I was there. 67 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: I haven't been there in the past two years, but 68 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: I was there right after the Taliban took over, and 69 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: we met some of these women. And these are women 70 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: who were mayors, who were doctors, who were you know, 71 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: community activists. It shouldn't surprise you to hear that these 72 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: were super articulate, super intelligent women who were there with solutions. 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: They had very close contact with the people in their 74 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: own communities, as you know women tend to in in 75 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: many parts of the world, and they had solutions to offer. 76 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: And again, this is a society which is broken. You 77 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: have an economy which is not functioning, high level of 78 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: humanitarian aid needed, and these women have been silenced. Now 79 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: they're not allowed to have a seat at the table. 80 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: And I remember we asked them at the time, well, 81 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: we're going to be meeting Taliban leaders, what do you 82 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: want us to convey to them? And they said, we 83 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: don't need your voices. We want our own voices to 84 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: be heard. We want the only thing we want you 85 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: to ask them is to give us a seat at 86 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: the table so that we can join in trying to 87 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: solve these problems. 88 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 3: And you wouldn't be able to get back there, would you. 89 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: I mean, the un is present on the ground, but 90 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: we have to work very carefully. We are engaging with 91 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: the Taliban actually, because you know, isolation, when you have 92 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: no option, isolation is really not not the best solution. 93 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: You have to try to engage and try to influence 94 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: even the little bit that you can. 95 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: This society about forty to fifty years ago was quite 96 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 2: was progressive. I've seen of the women at university wearing 97 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: regular clothes, miniskirts. Even is this a should we all like? 98 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 2: Looking at America's proposed reproductive laws under some of the Republicans, 99 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: should this be a lesson that you can never assume 100 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: that things are carved in stone. 101 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: You can never assume things are carved in stone, especially 102 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: when it comes to women's rights. We've progressed so much, 103 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: and it's amazing to look back a couple of decades 104 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: and see how much women have been able to. You know, 105 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: it's taken for granted in most parts of the world 106 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: that women will work, women go to universities. Many universities 107 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: have more female students than they have male students. But 108 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: if you look at the gender gap, it's very much 109 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: still there. When I go to the UN for the 110 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: General Assembly and I hear all the heads of states speaking, 111 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: the vast majority of them are still men. Why is that? 112 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: And then you look at places in the Western world 113 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: as well, including the United States, including Europe, and you 114 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: see the pushback on gender equality. You see sexual and 115 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: reproductive rights that we were taking for granted being slowly 116 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: taken away under the guise of family values movements, which 117 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: of course have nothing to do with family values, but 118 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: they're really about power play of the men who remain 119 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: in power. 120 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 3: No. Well, Ravena, it's fascinating as to talk to you. 121 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: Ravena sham Desani, thanks for joining us. 122 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: You're welcome. Thanks for covering the story.