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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants.

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Speaker 2: Answers now, for good health and for good sleep, going

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Speaker 2: to bed at about the same time every night.

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Speaker 1: It's really important. And now here's the stars of our show,

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Speaker 1: my mom and dad. Hello.

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Speaker 2: We are Justin and Kylie Coles and I've got a

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Speaker 2: PhD in psychology and have written six books about raising

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Speaker 2: happy families, Kylie Mom to our six daughters and Qualifications

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Speaker 2: in early Childcare.

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Speaker 3: Hey, we got another awesome review.

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Speaker 1: Love those reviews. Apple podcasts is where you leave them?

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Speaker 3: This is from I like to draw.

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Speaker 2: With an E R on the air. I see that now,

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Speaker 2: I like to draw it? Like does that mean I

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Speaker 2: just don't like MESSI stick at all in the drawer.

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Speaker 2: I love the names of people when they leave these reviews.

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Speaker 2: I just write Justin. But obviously some people are more creative.

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Speaker 1: That a bit more creative than you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so top team, five star review. You both offer

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Speaker 3: such great insights and encouragement As a woman. I especially

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Speaker 3: enjoy hearing from Kylie.

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Speaker 1: Is so good.

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Speaker 3: You make a great team.

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Speaker 1: Six girls. I don't know how you do it. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: We don't know either. We ask ourselves all the time,

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Speaker 1: but they're pretty good. That's so nice.

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Speaker 2: I like to draw thank you for the five star

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Speaker 2: review if you're enjoying the podcast. By the way, those

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Speaker 2: five star ratings and reviews help people to find the

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Speaker 2: podcast and make their families happier like yours is.

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Speaker 1: So thank you for sending those reviews through.

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Speaker 2: Now I got to say something, and I'm going to

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Speaker 2: sound like I'm winging and whining a little bit, and

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Speaker 2: I hate to be the wingy winer mona and mumbler

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Speaker 2: and murmurer, but geez, I'm tired.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't look much.

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Speaker 3: Better, I've got my eyes closed.

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Speaker 1: Epness, I'm as I'm saying it.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking you look like you would rather be asleep,

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Speaker 2: like literally would prefer to be sleeping.

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Speaker 1: Just close your eyes, well they're already closed. Just listen

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Speaker 1: for a moment. How are you feeling? Now, give me

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Speaker 1: a pillow.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because I listened to this stuff and I

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Speaker 2: don't like the bells and the chimey sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that would tell me to sleep. I

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Speaker 2: think that would aggravate me. Not that I think Guns

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Speaker 2: and Roses is going to help.

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Speaker 1: Me to go to sleep either.

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Speaker 2: But this is the this is the bedtime lullaby sort

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Speaker 2: of stuff that you find on YouTube for the kids

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Speaker 2: when they won't go to sleep. What is it with

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Speaker 2: our kids? They just won't go to sleep. When they

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Speaker 2: do go to sleep, then they wake up. And I

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Speaker 2: thought we were past that. You know, we've gone through

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Speaker 2: the baby stage. We've gone through the toddlers stage where.

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Speaker 1: They they follow you around the bed.

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Speaker 3: They become a wedge roll over and they kind of

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Speaker 3: wedge themselves.

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Speaker 2: Until you actually it's literally there were three in the

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Speaker 2: bed and the little one said roll over, and then

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Speaker 2: mum or dad rolled out of the bed. So last night,

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Speaker 2: our six year old Jomy, she's nearly seven, for goodness sakes,

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Speaker 2: she's been sleeping through the night for years, and she

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Speaker 2: decided that our bed was better.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's funny because she often will actually pass

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Speaker 3: three other toilets to get to our bedroom, but she

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Speaker 3: has to go to the toilet in our room, and

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Speaker 3: that's why she ends up.

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Speaker 1: In bed with us.

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Speaker 2: To add some clarification here, so people always say, my goodness,

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Speaker 2: you have six daughters.

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Speaker 1: How many toilets have you got? How many bathrooms have

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Speaker 1: you got?

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Speaker 2: We have sufficient bathrooms for our needs because we have

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Speaker 2: so many. But yeah, she goes, she comes to the

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Speaker 2: third toilet in the house so that she can use

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Speaker 2: our en suite bathroom. And then she's walked from one

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Speaker 2: end of the house to the other because her bedroom

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Speaker 2: is literally at the other end of the house.

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Speaker 3: Done what she needs to do, and she can't be

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Speaker 3: bother going back to her bed.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to go all the way back to

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Speaker 1: my bedroom. That was a long walk.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to stay right here. So she gets in

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Speaker 2: the middle of us, and we're just just struggling a bit.

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Speaker 2: So I thought it would be useful to have a

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Speaker 2: chat about just getting kids to go to sleep. Now,

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Speaker 2: we're not going to talk about babies. We know that

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Speaker 2: some of you are really struggling with that and it

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Speaker 2: is exhausting, And we could easily do a whole podcast

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Speaker 2: on the whole crying it out thing and why we

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be doing that and what's.

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Speaker 1: Better for our children and what's better for us and

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Speaker 1: for our well being. Not going to go there.

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Speaker 3: Let's just focus on kids between two to twelve.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, we can do that. I remember with

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Speaker 2: when our kids were two three, four years of age.

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Speaker 2: You know, sometimes they wouldn't stay in the cot or

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Speaker 2: stay in their bed when they moved up to a bed,

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Speaker 2: and you or I would end up laying on the

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Speaker 2: floor beside them with our arms sort of reaching up

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Speaker 2: into the cot or reaching up onto the bed, and

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Speaker 2: you kind of get that dead arm after a while

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Speaker 2: because you're just padding and padding and padding and singing

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Speaker 2: them songs.

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Speaker 1: So they fall asleep.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes. I think, if I remember correctly, you would come

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Speaker 3: and wake me up because I was I'd fallen asleep

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Speaker 3: putting the babies.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean sometimes, if I remember correctly, I

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Speaker 2: think I did that about three weeks ago when you

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Speaker 2: were laying on the.

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Speaker 1: Carpet in Emily's room.

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Speaker 2: I think were you reading a story to her and

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Speaker 2: you actually fell asleep in the middle of the story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I've done that so many times.

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Speaker 2: And so I'll be laying there and I'm laying on

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Speaker 2: my back with the book sort of resting on my chest,

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Speaker 2: on my belly, and next thing, you know, one of

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Speaker 2: the kids going dad. And that's only at like seven

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Speaker 2: forty five at night. What happens to us we turned

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Speaker 2: thirty or forty?

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Speaker 3: Can hear yourself starting this, the words gather and the

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Speaker 3: page is slowly just.

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Speaker 2: I've looked at the kids a few times. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so tired, I can't read this.

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Speaker 1: And that don't care. They're like, read it, read it

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Speaker 1: on my wall page, just pa so hard. And if

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Speaker 1: it's Emily, it's one more book. Gosh, that kid, Where

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Speaker 1: do they get all this energy from?

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Speaker 2: Like something actually did happen to us when we turned

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Speaker 2: like I don't know, thirty thirty five and nine o'clock

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Speaker 2: at night became late, Like that's a big night. I'm

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Speaker 2: ready for bed at seven forty five, eight o'clock, eight thirty.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's called six kids.

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Speaker 1: You reckon, That's what I talked to.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's just called parenting. I talk to parents all

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Speaker 2: the time. We've only got one or two, and they

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Speaker 2: feel the same. Maybe it's just part of the human condition.

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Speaker 2: It's it's really tough. But I want to talk about

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Speaker 2: this thing that. So when Emily comes and gets into

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Speaker 2: the bed, or when any of our kids have done that,

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Speaker 2: We've done every We've tried every single thing that we

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Speaker 2: could think of to make it.

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Speaker 1: You know, we carry them back to the.

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Speaker 2: Bed, hop in their bed with them done all that

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Speaker 2: sort of stuff, and sometimes it doesn't make any difference.

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Speaker 2: They still end up in your bed and you still

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Speaker 2: get no sleep. And my whole thing now, even with

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Speaker 2: Emily at the age of six or seven, is I

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Speaker 2: just get out of bed because she's in bed, and

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Speaker 2: I go and get into her bed because she's happy sleeping,

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Speaker 2: and I'll sleep anywhere at two o'clock in the morning

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Speaker 2: once this has happened, and I think that might actually

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Speaker 2: be one of the best tips for parents is just

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Speaker 2: if they come and get into your bed, just get out.

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Speaker 2: Just go and get into their bed and stay there,

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Speaker 2: and when you wake up in the morning, everything will

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Speaker 2: be fine.

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Speaker 1: Everyone will slept well.

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Speaker 2: And some parents will be like some people that I'll

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Speaker 2: talk to are like, yeah, but what if you know,

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Speaker 2: it kind of disturbs your intimate moments.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't it. And I'm kind of like, who's being intimate

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Speaker 1: at two o'clock?

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Speaker 2: Like, you know, you get that out of the way

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Speaker 2: early and then you go to sleep. If the kids

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Speaker 2: are interrupting your sleep, just go and sleep somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: I have had lots of friends over the years who've

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Speaker 3: actually converted their children's beds into queen size beds for

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Speaker 3: that exactly. Trying to squeeze into the toddler bed is

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Speaker 3: not so fun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I think I've fallen asleep in a cot

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Speaker 2: more than once next to a baby who or a

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Speaker 2: toddler who wouldn't go to sleep. Hey, we should actually

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Speaker 2: talk about how to get kids to go to sleep.

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Speaker 1: There is some science around this. Can we do that? Sure?

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Speaker 1: Sounds great, I'll do that right after break. It's the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 4: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 4: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 4: of discipline. There's a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 4: with love, compassion and humanity. Find it now at happy

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Speaker 4: families dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now. And we have

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Speaker 3: been talking about the dilemma, the single most hands down

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Speaker 3: challenging thing for parents. I think I say that every

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Speaker 3: week with a new topic.

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Speaker 1: Don't I challenges every single part of it. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's it's tiring, and we are talking about.

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Speaker 3: Getting our kids to sleep, and this is a big

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Speaker 3: challenge for parents.

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Speaker 1: And there's science to help us.

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Speaker 3: Oh, there's science, all right, you just get the science

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Speaker 3: out of the way now.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't know, because this is like, if there's

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Speaker 2: genuine scientific discoveries that can help us to make this work,

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Speaker 2: this is much better than just making it up as

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Speaker 2: you go along, right, Okay, okay, okay, So where do

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Speaker 2: you want to start?

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's start with something really simple. When is the

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Speaker 3: best time to put our kids to bed?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So the answer to that is it depends, right, Yes,

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Speaker 2: it depends on how old the child is. It depends

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Speaker 2: on what time they woke up, It depends on how

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Speaker 2: physically active they were during that day, what they've been eating, like,

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Speaker 2: it depends on any conditions that they might have. That's

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Speaker 2: actually not a very simple question. But here's what we

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Speaker 2: can generally say. Younger children should go to bed earlier.

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Speaker 2: Older children are going to go to bed later. That's

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Speaker 2: what happens. And part of that is because of the

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Speaker 2: chemicals in our brain and body.

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Speaker 3: So where do adults fit into this, because I swear

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Speaker 3: I go to sleep before.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're just talking about it. We're just talking about

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Speaker 2: getting the kids to go to sleep. Okay, we'll deal

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Speaker 2: with that another time. We go to sleep once they're asleep,

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Speaker 2: unless they're teenagers, and that's when we just give up

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Speaker 2: and go to sleep.

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Speaker 3: I wonder we're so tired all the time.

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Speaker 2: So there's this thing called a circadian rhythm, and what

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Speaker 2: it essentially means is that our body wakes up when

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Speaker 2: the light comes up and it wants to go to

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Speaker 2: sleep when.

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Speaker 1: The light goes down.

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Speaker 2: Our body as the light goes down and as nighttime arrives,

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Speaker 2: creates this hormone, this neurotransmitter called melotonin. And what melotonin does,

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Speaker 2: it's like a chemical that helps us to start to

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Speaker 2: feel sleepy. That's why you start rubbing your eyes, you

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Speaker 2: start yawning. That's what the kids do. Melotonin is good

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Speaker 2: because it helps us to want to go to sleep.

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Speaker 2: Children produce it, grown up to produce it. Teenagers produce it,

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Speaker 2: but they produce it about an hour and a half

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Speaker 2: to two hours later than children or adults, which is

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Speaker 2: why teenagers are still go go go at nine o'clock. Well,

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Speaker 2: where we've got bags under our eyes, the size of

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Speaker 2: the size of Antarctica, the size a continent. But basically,

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Speaker 2: the best time to go to sleep is when you're tired.

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Speaker 2: That's really the critical thing. And the other thing that

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Speaker 2: science shows is that we tend to get tired at

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Speaker 2: about the same time most of the time, and so

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Speaker 2: children should go to bed around about thirty minutes, within

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Speaker 2: about thirty minutes of their bedtime consistently. For good health

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Speaker 2: and for good sleep, going to bed at about the

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Speaker 2: same time every night's really important.

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Speaker 3: So this goes back to our conversation that we've had

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Speaker 3: plenty of times in our house about routine.

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Speaker 2: Routine is everything. Yeah, so if the kids normally go

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Speaker 2: to bed at let's say a little and you're going

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Speaker 2: to put them to bed at about six thirty, then

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Speaker 2: you don't want them up any later than seven, and

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Speaker 2: you don't want to try to put them to bed

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Speaker 2: any earlier than six. Just keep it as closer. You

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Speaker 2: don't want to be overly rigid, because rigidity creates stress

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Speaker 2: and anxiety, which actually reduces the likelihood of sleep. But

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Speaker 2: you just want to get a consistent bedtime and stick

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Speaker 2: with it.

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Speaker 3: And I guess that really makes sense because we'll all

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Speaker 3: have been in the position where you have a child

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Speaker 3: who is well past their bedtime. You know something's come up.

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Speaker 3: We're at an event and we've got our children out

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Speaker 3: for a couple of hours longer than we need to,

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Speaker 3: and you'd think, because they're so tired, that they're just

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Speaker 3: going to fall asleep, and yet the process seems to

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Speaker 3: take so much longer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we call it being overtired. And for some reason,

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Speaker 2: when we're over time, we've got our second wind and

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Speaker 2: we're ready to go to midnight.

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Speaker 3: There's this thing called sleep hygiene. Yeah, yeah, I've heard

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Speaker 3: it kind of bandied around a little bit, you know,

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Speaker 3: Can you talk to us a little bit about that.

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Speaker 2: So sleep hygiene essentially is how you're going to set

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Speaker 2: up the room so that your child can go to sleep.

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Speaker 1: Are you going to have it light or dark, You're

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Speaker 1: going to have it loud or quiet? Are you going

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Speaker 1: to have it cold or warm?

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Speaker 2: And there's actually some factors in sleep hygiene that we

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Speaker 2: know work pretty well for most kids. So we know

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Speaker 2: that the darker the room, the better. But some children

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Speaker 2: feel a little bit intimidated by the darkness, and so

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Speaker 2: having a small night light can be helpful. But the

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Speaker 2: dimmer the light, the better. Eyes will adjust in the

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Speaker 2: dark and pretty soon that very dim light will be okay.

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Speaker 2: But the darker the better, The quieter the better. Now,

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Speaker 2: I know that's a bit controversial because sometimes people will

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Speaker 2: be like, no, no, no, The kids need to get used

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Speaker 2: to the fact that there's going to be noise, and

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Speaker 2: they need to learn how to sleep through the noise.

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Speaker 2: But we've got to help them to do that in

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Speaker 2: a You can't just go and crank up the stereo

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Speaker 2: and expect that they're going to sleep through it if

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Speaker 2: they've never been exposed to noise before. So we want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that the room is as quiet as

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Speaker 2: is reasonable. And if it's too cold or too hot,

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Speaker 2: no one sleeps well either. So just their basic sleep

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Speaker 2: hygiene ideas. You've done plenty of this. I mean, I've

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Speaker 2: been traveling for years and running workshops all over the country.

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Speaker 2: What do you do on those nights when that child

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Speaker 2: just will not go to bed.

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Speaker 3: As parents, we're usually looking for a quick fix, especially

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Speaker 3: when we're exhausted. We just want the kids to do

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Speaker 3: what we've told them to do and just do it

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Speaker 3: without hassle.

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Speaker 2: Especially when you can look at them and be like,

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Speaker 2: you are so tired, kiddo, You've got to go to sleep.

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Speaker 3: But I think that sometimes we kind of forget in

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Speaker 3: the moment because we ourselves are at breaking point exhaustion

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Speaker 3: and just feeling depleted. Sometimes we're actually asking our kids

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Speaker 3: to grow up so much faster than they need to.

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Speaker 3: And so I don't know if this You know, this

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Speaker 3: isn't going to work for everybody. I totally acknowledge that.

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Speaker 3: But for me, I just look at the fact that

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to have this five year old for

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Speaker 3: very much longer, or my two year old. It's going

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Speaker 3: to disappear quicker than I want it to, and so

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Speaker 3: if they need that extra cuddle, I'm going to give

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Speaker 3: them that extra cuddle. And like we've already stated, there

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Speaker 3: are many times where You've had to come in and

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Speaker 3: pull me up off the carpet because I've fallen asleep

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Speaker 3: next to them. And as hard as it's been and

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Speaker 3: as exhausting as it's been, I wouldn't change a thing

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Speaker 3: because those experiences help to build relationships with my children

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Speaker 3: in a way that I can't find outside of those experiences.

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Speaker 3: There's just something something so beautiful about those nighttime cuddles

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Speaker 3: and snuggles when there's just softness, there's softness in both

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Speaker 3: you and your child.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that aligns with what I would point to

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Speaker 2: in the research, and that is that the more stress

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Speaker 2: we create over this situation, the harder it is.

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Speaker 3: It really reminds me of the quote that we used

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Speaker 3: on Tuesday when we were talking about book club that says,

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Speaker 3: responsive parenting always has been and the rock of which

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Speaker 3: resilience rests. And I look at all of the times

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Speaker 3: that we've been able to respond to our children's needs

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Speaker 3: for that extra cuddle or that extra story, or that

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Speaker 3: you know, just need for comfort in the middle of

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Speaker 3: the night. I have to believe that we're doing good things.

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling relaxed just listening to you.

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Speaker 2: When I look at the research, it really suggests that

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Speaker 2: we need to reduce stress. We want to do whatever

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Speaker 2: we can to make bedtime a comforting and secure experience

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Speaker 2: for our children. And we do that best not by

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Speaker 2: hassling them and pushing them and conjoling them and coercing

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Speaker 2: them into bed and saying you need to go to

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Speaker 2: sleep now, but by making it a place where they

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Speaker 2: feel good to be with.

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Speaker 1: Us and we feel good to be with them.

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Speaker 2: It's those hugs and those quiet moments where there's no pressure.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes we just recognize the dishwashing might not happen tonight.

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna lay with this child until they feel safe.

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Speaker 2: That's the way I go. Doesn't always work out that

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Speaker 2: way in real life. I'll turn the music off because

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Speaker 2: sometimes it doesn't always go like that. But when we

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Speaker 2: can get it to be like that, when we can

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Speaker 2: change our mindset, that's when we get the best results.

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Speaker 3: Well, I hope we haven't put you to sleep while

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Speaker 3: we've been talking about helping our children sleep today, but

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Speaker 3: hopefully there's something in here that will just resonate with

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Speaker 3: you and help to make your sleep time more calm

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Speaker 3: and connected.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we really hope that you've enjoyed the podcast and

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Speaker 2: that's been helpful if you do enjoy the podcast. As

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Speaker 2: we mentioned at the outset, those five star reviews really

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Speaker 2: make a difference. You can review wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 2: and it helps others to make their families happier. Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much as always to Craig Bruce, our executive producer,

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Speaker 2: and Justin rule On from Bridge Media, our producer. Really

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Speaker 2: great for you guys, and if you'd like more information

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Speaker 2: about making your family happier, especially the membership where book

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Speaker 2: club happens each month. Get all the info at happy

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Speaker 2: families dot com dot au