1
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,560
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

2
00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

3
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,080
Speaker 2: answers Now. Hello, this is the Happy Family's podcast. My

4
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,360
Speaker 2: name's doctor Justin Courson. So good to have you along

5
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,400
Speaker 2: today on the podcast. An interview with the Difference. I've

6
00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,759
Speaker 2: been trying to get a hold of Abigail Shreier. She's

7
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,279
Speaker 2: the author of a book that I found compelling a

8
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,440
Speaker 2: few years ago, called Irreversible Damage. It was a controversial

9
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,720
Speaker 2: on provocative book. Some people really got mad at me

10
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 2: because I read it and said that it was quite useful.

11
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,800
Speaker 2: But she's got a brand new book out once again

12
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,440
Speaker 2: highly provocative. It seems that she likes to take on

13
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 2: topics that are going to be challenging. The book is

14
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,879
Speaker 2: called Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up. This

15
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,880
Speaker 2: is a book that's all about emotions. It's a book

16
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:48,839
Speaker 2: that's all about what's going on with our kids and

17
00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,720
Speaker 2: why there are so many challenges Now. I've reached out

18
00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 2: to Abigail Shreyer a couple of times to try and

19
00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:55,720
Speaker 2: get her on the podcast. She's been a little bit

20
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,920
Speaker 2: busy on a whole lot of other podcasts, like Joe

21
00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,880
Speaker 2: Rogan and the ones where there are two million people

22
00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,160
Speaker 2: that listen to every episode. Now we're doing okay on

23
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,200
Speaker 2: this podcast, but we're not quite at that level. So

24
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,480
Speaker 2: being a little parenting podcast in Australia, we're not quite

25
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,720
Speaker 2: at the Abigail Shriyer level at this point, it seems,

26
00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,119
Speaker 2: although we will keep on trying in the meantime though,

27
00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 2: because it's such an important conversation, because it's so provocative

28
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 2: and there are so many things that we can pull

29
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,679
Speaker 2: out of it. What I'm going to do is share

30
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,120
Speaker 2: a couple of snippets from a discussion that Abigail Shriyer

31
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,399
Speaker 2: had with Barry Weiss of the Honestly podcast. Honestly with

32
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,240
Speaker 2: Barry Weiss is the name of that podcast. The first

33
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,480
Speaker 2: thing that I want to share with you was how

34
00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 2: we got to be where we are. That is why

35
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,959
Speaker 2: are so many kids struggling with the mental health and

36
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,560
Speaker 2: why is therapy so popular among our young generation.

37
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,320
Speaker 1: I'm the tail end of jen X. I was born

38
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,800
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight, and when I was in high school,

39
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 1: America reached the high water mark of divorce. Our families

40
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,240
Speaker 1: were being broken up at rates that America hadn't seen,

41
00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of people my age grew into it

42
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 1: adulthood and they really felt like emotionally they were undersupported

43
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 1: by their childhoods and by their parents. And my generation

44
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,080
Speaker 1: was a big believer in therapy. We went into therapy

45
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,080
Speaker 1: in greater numbers than any prior generation. We loved the

46
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 1: movie Goodwill Hunting and we thought, therapy is how you

47
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,400
Speaker 1: get better, It's how you make yourself strong and get

48
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,959
Speaker 1: the girl, and we went into therapy. We started exploring

49
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 1: our own childhoods. The best parenting books were written by therapists,

50
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,640
Speaker 1: and we read them all and we convinced ourselves that

51
00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,800
Speaker 1: we could become the most emotionally supportive parents. We were

52
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 1: going to be there for our kids. We were going

53
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 1: to understand them, We're going to be close to our kids,

54
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 1: and most important of all, we were going to shield

55
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,200
Speaker 1: our kids from trauma, any emotional pain, because that's what

56
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,160
Speaker 1: we learned. Trauma can come from any source. It can

57
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,640
Speaker 1: come from a bad grade, it can come from a

58
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 1: friend dropping you, and we were going to save our

59
00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: children from ever experiencing this trauma. We had this idea

60
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,959
Speaker 1: that if we just watched enough and we just poured

61
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 1: more hours into were a children report more than anyone else,

62
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,079
Speaker 1: we could save them from ever having emotional pain.

63
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,640
Speaker 2: Now I'm reading the book at the moment. I'll be

64
00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,720
Speaker 2: discussing it more on the Happy Family's Book Club podcast

65
00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:12,920
Speaker 2: coming up in a couple of weeks, But there are

66
00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,560
Speaker 2: some really interesting ideas here. First of all, Australia has

67
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 2: generally followed this United States trend. We're a very different

68
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 2: nation and we haven't quite gone exactly the same way

69
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,120
Speaker 2: as the US, But the general things that Shreier is

70
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,240
Speaker 2: talking about in this conversation are pretty consistent with what

71
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:33,160
Speaker 2: has happened in Australia, especially over the last few years,

72
00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,960
Speaker 2: as the word trauma has become common place and really

73
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,560
Speaker 2: part of educational and parenting parlance. To give you an

74
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 2: idea of how things have changed, around about ten years ago,

75
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,640
Speaker 2: I wrote a book called Nine Ways to a Resilient Child.

76
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,280
Speaker 2: At the time, nobody was talking about trauma, and I

77
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,120
Speaker 2: pretty much didn't write about trauma at all in the book.

78
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 2: The world has changed that much now. The second thing

79
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 2: that I want to play to you from the Honestly

80
00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 2: podcast with Barry Weiss is where Shria starts to talk

81
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:12,040
Speaker 2: about how trauma and specifically how therapy may be exacerbating

82
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,760
Speaker 2: the very problems we're trying to stop in our young people.

83
00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,920
Speaker 1: The number one symptom of depression is rumination or dwelling

84
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,839
Speaker 1: on past pain, rehearsing bad memories in a loop. At

85
00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,279
Speaker 1: the very least, if nothing else, we have more rumination

86
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 1: than we've ever seen before. So it may be that

87
00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 1: kids are more open about their mental health struggles and

88
00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,159
Speaker 1: it is less stigmatized, But they are also engaging in

89
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,039
Speaker 1: the behavior that is the number one symptom of depression,

90
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,440
Speaker 1: that is rehearsing and telling surveys about all their bad

91
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,640
Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings. So that's an indication in and of

92
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,480
Speaker 1: itself that the rates of depression have gone up. But

93
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,560
Speaker 1: we're not just seeing depression. We're hearing about summer anxiety,

94
00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:03,159
Speaker 1: relocation anxiety. What's summer anxiety. That's an anxiety a child

95
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,159
Speaker 1: might find over the summer when they can't play with

96
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 1: their friends, relocation anxiety when your parents move to a

97
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,359
Speaker 1: new place, social phobia, when you have trouble making friends.

98
00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,719
Speaker 1: They have so dialed down mental disorder that you'll see

99
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 1: that it applies to basically the entire experience of the

100
00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 1: human condition. And we have a very diagnosed group of

101
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,800
Speaker 1: young people who are convinced that they have these mental

102
00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 1: health disorders because we apply them over everything that used

103
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,359
Speaker 1: to be just considered heartbreak. No, that's depression, worry, No,

104
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,640
Speaker 1: that's anxiety, shyness, No, that's social anxiety.

105
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 2: So this is fascinating to me and something that I

106
00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,000
Speaker 2: tend to agree with, I also struggle with. So there

107
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,680
Speaker 2: is value in having labels where somebody is genuinely experiencing

108
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 2: psychological challenge. However, a label is something that some people

109
00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,479
Speaker 2: will live into, and once they have that label, it's

110
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,480
Speaker 2: something that becomes I guess, almost a crach or an excuse. Now, please,

111
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,839
Speaker 2: if you have a label. I'm not saying that that's

112
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 2: what will happen. It's a risk in some cases. And increasingly,

113
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,000
Speaker 2: as I work in schools and I work with families,

114
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,760
Speaker 2: and I talk to people who are struggling, and I

115
00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 2: engage with psychologists and mental health support workers and whoever else,

116
00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,279
Speaker 2: what I'm seeing more and more is that we seem

117
00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:28,960
Speaker 2: to be looking for increasing levels of labeling to explain

118
00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,720
Speaker 2: what's going on. There are challenges with that, and we

119
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,240
Speaker 2: need to be mindful of it. Again, the book's really

120
00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 2: provocative around this. I think that she sometimes takes positions

121
00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,800
Speaker 2: that are far more extreme than are necessary, but the

122
00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:47,480
Speaker 2: conversation is fascinating. Abigail Schreier is the author of Bad Therapy,

123
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,600
Speaker 2: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up. In fact, she describes

124
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,880
Speaker 2: that a lot of kids don't want to grow up,

125
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,479
Speaker 2: and right in her sights, as this book is progressing,

126
00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,040
Speaker 2: Schreier is really really tough to task those who work

127
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,320
Speaker 2: in therapeutic environments, particularly those who work in what's known

128
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,640
Speaker 2: as a psychodynamic environment. People who are doing psychotherapy now

129
00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,280
Speaker 2: that is different to something like cognitive behavioral therapy, and

130
00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:18,720
Speaker 2: Australia is very much oriented towards CBT. There are some

131
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 2: psychodynamic psychotherapeutic approaches in Australia that are gaining popularity, but

132
00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 2: it's mainly a CBT environment, which is quite different to

133
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,960
Speaker 2: the US. From that point of view, Australia is doing

134
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,560
Speaker 2: a whole lot better than what Shri makes out. Nevertheless,

135
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,280
Speaker 2: she introduces a word that I hadn't heard of before.

136
00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,600
Speaker 2: The word is Iatrogenics have listened to what she has

137
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 2: to say about this as it relates to therapy.

138
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 1: I want to introduce a word. It's iatrogenesis, and niatrogenesis

139
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 1: is a Greek word meaning when the healer introduces harm.

140
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 1: And what I want people to know is that any intervention,

141
00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,360
Speaker 1: no matter how good, from thailanol to X rays and

142
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 1: carry risk. They all come with some degree of risk.

143
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,320
Speaker 1: Now when we need them, when you need the tile

144
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,440
Speaker 1: and all, it's worth the risk. And when you don't

145
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 1: need the intervention, when you don't need the medication, you

146
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 1: don't stand to benefit. Therefore you're only exposed to the risk.

147
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,640
Speaker 1: So go to the er if you need it, absolutely,

148
00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,040
Speaker 1: But of course the er is filled with things like

149
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 1: MRSA and other bacteria you may pick up while you're there,

150
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 1: so don't go if you don't need it. The same

151
00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,720
Speaker 1: is true with X rays. Of course we know we

152
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,280
Speaker 1: don't need the extra radiation. But what people don't may

153
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,199
Speaker 1: not know, is that psychotherapy also comes with iatrogenic harms,

154
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,640
Speaker 1: and that researchers have looked into this and they have

155
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,920
Speaker 1: found a lot of harms that therapy can and does

156
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,359
Speaker 1: cause in some percentage of the population, like increasing anxiety,

157
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:54,360
Speaker 1: like increasing depression, like making PTSD worse, like robbing a

158
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,960
Speaker 1: patient of a feeling of efficacy that they can do

159
00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,440
Speaker 1: anything to improve their own life, like feeling that they

160
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,319
Speaker 1: are limited by this new diagnosis they just got, and

161
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,560
Speaker 1: alienation from family members is another one that can come

162
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,800
Speaker 1: out of therapy. These are all risks that are worth it,

163
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,840
Speaker 1: of course if you really need the therapy. But if

164
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 1: you don't need the therapy, all you're exposing a child

165
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:19,319
Speaker 1: to is the risk.

166
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,320
Speaker 2: And one of the main things that Shreia talks about

167
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,120
Speaker 2: in the book is that we are exposing our children

168
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:26,680
Speaker 2: to a whole lot of therapy, which means that we

169
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,679
Speaker 2: potentially are exposing them to a whole lot of risk.

170
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,480
Speaker 2: Abigail Schreyer is the author of Bad Therapy While the

171
00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,920
Speaker 2: Kids Aren't Growing Up, and she spoke with Barry Weiss

172
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,199
Speaker 2: on the Honestly podcast. Here she explains bad therapy and

173
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,840
Speaker 2: who suffers the most when it comes to this iatrogenesis what.

174
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,120
Speaker 1: I call bad therapy, that is iatrogenic therapy on the

175
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,160
Speaker 1: entire generation. They are swimming it now. In terms of

176
00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,720
Speaker 1: boys and girls, there's no question of teen girls are

177
00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,560
Speaker 1: suffering the most. In terms of mental health. They had

178
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:06,680
Speaker 1: the highest rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, suicidal harm.

179
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,840
Speaker 1: And one of the interesting things about these girls is

180
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,319
Speaker 1: when I interviewed their families, when I interviewed them. Nearly

181
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,960
Speaker 1: all of them had a therapist. And here's the thing

182
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,960
Speaker 1: that surprised me. You know, it seems like the most

183
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 1: helpful and innocuous thing in the world. Ask a kid regularly,

184
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,480
Speaker 1: how are you feeling? Well? What's the harm in that? Right?

185
00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 1: You're checking in with your child, you're checking in with

186
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 1: you know, your student. But it turns out, and there's

187
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 1: a lot of good research behind this, a lot of

188
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 1: it's conducted by Iris Mouse out of Berkeley that constantly

189
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,480
Speaker 1: focusing on your feelings and taking your emotional temperature and

190
00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,880
Speaker 1: thinking your feelings are an important signal that enough is

191
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,160
Speaker 1: alone to make you much less happy. And parents no

192
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,720
Speaker 1: longer trust their own judgment even with their own children.

193
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,199
Speaker 1: They believe they have to rely on a mental health professional.

194
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: And that little bit of self doubt, that sense that

195
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,800
Speaker 1: I can't decide what's bad for my kid or good

196
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,559
Speaker 1: for my child, because of course I'm not a neurobiologist

197
00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,840
Speaker 1: or a neuropsychologist. That self doubt has unfortunately allowed parents

198
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,280
Speaker 1: to step aside and allowed all kinds of interlopers to

199
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,680
Speaker 1: come between parent and child. And this case, I argue

200
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,720
Speaker 1: in the book that the number one interloper that we've

201
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,680
Speaker 1: all sort of ceded our authority to really is the

202
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,360
Speaker 1: mental health professional, and they're having their way with our kids,

203
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,120
Speaker 1: and it's really really making the mental health of a

204
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,320
Speaker 1: generation much worse.

205
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 2: Oh, you can see how provocative this is and maybe

206
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,680
Speaker 2: why I'm loving the book so much. Some very easy

207
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,199
Speaker 2: to agree with, some very challenging to accept. In her

208
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,240
Speaker 2: sites as well as those who practice psychotherapy are the

209
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,560
Speaker 2: school counselors, those who are working in an adjunct role,

210
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,000
Speaker 2: in a role that's not actually a mental health care role,

211
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,280
Speaker 2: people who are not trained to be doing this work,

212
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,600
Speaker 2: but who step into that anyway. There's a lot of

213
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 2: a lot of lifting done around the problem with restorative

214
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,400
Speaker 2: practice and restorative circles in schools, which is something that

215
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,199
Speaker 2: I've argued is not done well most of the time

216
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,880
Speaker 2: in most schools. It's a really big challenge. And then

217
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,600
Speaker 2: gentle parenting comes in for a bit of firing.

218
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,440
Speaker 1: This was the ultimate in therapeutic parenting. Remember, a therapist

219
00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,560
Speaker 1: doesn't judge, and they don't put themselves above you. They

220
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,559
Speaker 1: simply meet you where you are and try to understand

221
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,160
Speaker 1: your pain and they give you choices. And that is

222
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,760
Speaker 1: the way parents are to conduct themselves. They don't ever discipline.

223
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,160
Speaker 1: They try never to say no if they can avoid it.

224
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,120
Speaker 1: They certainly never punish, and they wouldn't even think of spanking.

225
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,000
Speaker 1: In fact, a time out is too much for them,

226
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,679
Speaker 1: that's too much trauma. They instead give the child a

227
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 1: series of choices. Would you prefer the red cup or

228
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,920
Speaker 1: the blue cup? Oh no, you spilled your cheerios on

229
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,840
Speaker 1: the floor. You just threw the cup at me. What

230
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 1: should we do about that? And it's this series of

231
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,560
Speaker 1: questions and always meeting the child at his or her level.

232
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,800
Speaker 1: And I can only tell you that the parenting blogs

233
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,400
Speaker 1: of parents who try this are hilarious because it turns

234
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,240
Speaker 1: out being the gentle parent doesn't necessarily mean you raise

235
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,920
Speaker 1: the gentle child. Oh gosh, it's horrible to punish your child.

236
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,120
Speaker 1: Punishing a child is the hardest thing parents ever have

237
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,800
Speaker 1: to do. It is time consuming, it makes you feel lame,

238
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,280
Speaker 1: you feel you feel like principal ruiny. It's horrible, and

239
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,160
Speaker 1: you make your kid really mad at you. And you

240
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 1: know what, you love your kid and you love your

241
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,000
Speaker 1: relationship with your kid. Punishing your kids is the single

242
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 1: hardest thing you ever have to do. It's awful. And

243
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:44,240
Speaker 1: so the idea that you could raise gentle children, you know,

244
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,320
Speaker 1: wonderful children who are thoughtful into adulthood without ever making

245
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,920
Speaker 1: them feel bad is such an attractive notion. If it worked,

246
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 1: I would be one thousand percent behind it, because let

247
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,920
Speaker 1: me tell you something, when I have to send a

248
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,880
Speaker 1: kid to his room in the middle of it wrecks

249
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,680
Speaker 1: my whole dinner. It's awful. And then you have to

250
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 1: meet you know, you don't you worry about, oh, did

251
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,319
Speaker 1: they get enough to eat? And you know, how long

252
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:10,680
Speaker 1: are they going to be mad at me? Because they're

253
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 1: going to be mad at me? And it's an awful

254
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 1: thing to do. And the idea that we can short

255
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,000
Speaker 1: circuit it, that we can raise good adults without ever

256
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,080
Speaker 1: being the authoritative parent, Gosh, that's attractive.

257
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 2: So this is the most frustrating part of the book. Clearly,

258
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,600
Speaker 2: Abigail Shayer is not a parenting expert and hasn't done

259
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 2: a PhD in psychology, And as much as she might

260
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,640
Speaker 2: have some good ideas, and it's really provocative ideas. I mean,

261
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 2: I love the challenge of this book because there are

262
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,320
Speaker 2: so many things that are almost right, and there are

263
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,960
Speaker 2: so many things that are dead on, But there are

264
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 2: also a handful of things that Abigail Shier just gets

265
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 2: completely wrong. This was one of the worst chapters that

266
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 2: I read in the entire book. I wish that she

267
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,560
Speaker 2: had read my book. I'm not huge on gentle parenting.

268
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,120
Speaker 2: I've been really clear about that, but what I am

269
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,760
Speaker 2: big one is that if we can understand our children's

270
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,440
Speaker 2: basic psychological needs and create the right environment, we're going

271
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,120
Speaker 2: to get much much better results. All right, So the

272
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,800
Speaker 2: last thing that she said that I wanted to share

273
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 2: with you, as Abigail Schreyer, the author of Bad Therapy

274
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,640
Speaker 2: While the Kids Aren't Growing Up, in her conversation with

275
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,320
Speaker 2: Barry Weiss on the Honestly podcast, the last thing I

276
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,280
Speaker 2: want to share with you is her final advice.

277
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,760
Speaker 1: The thing I want parents to think about is that

278
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,160
Speaker 1: kids have too much of everything right now. They're being

279
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 1: hit by too much too much tech, too much surveillance,

280
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 1: too much therapy, too much adult oversight, not enough time alone,

281
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,760
Speaker 1: not enough time with quiet, not enough time with other friends.

282
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 1: Parents need to subtract themselves and subtract the tech too.

283
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 1: They need to raise kids with authority so that they

284
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,480
Speaker 1: tell the kids, here are the rules, right and wrong.

285
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 1: Now use your judgment, and they need to be able

286
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,560
Speaker 1: to have confidence, you know, or take the risk that

287
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 1: their kids will do just fine on their own and

288
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 1: have that confidence. But there's something else too, when a

289
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 1: child runs into a problem, when they start suffering in

290
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 1: some manner and the parent considers letting them off easy

291
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,400
Speaker 1: or asking for an accommodation in school. Here's what I

292
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,840
Speaker 1: want parents to ask themselves. Will this make my child stronger?

293
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,240
Speaker 1: If the answer is yes, you're helping your child alive.

294
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,480
Speaker 1: If the answer is no, don't do it.

295
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 2: This book is a fascinating read. It's Abigail Shreier, the

296
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 2: author of Bad Therapy, Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up?

297
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,600
Speaker 2: And those snippets were from the Honestly podcast with Barry Weiss.

298
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 2: You know what, The book slams therapists. The book slams trauma.

299
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,360
Speaker 2: The book slams asking questions like how are you feeling

300
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 2: and getting kids focused on their emotions. And there's a

301
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 2: lot to hate about that, and there's also a lot

302
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 2: to like about it. In essence, I'm feeling like there's

303
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 2: going to be more major disappointment in this book than brilliance,

304
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,920
Speaker 2: but so many thoughtful provocations and I'm really enjoying it.

305
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 2: Can't wait to give you my book review in just

306
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks on the Happy Families Podcast, when

307
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,800
Speaker 2: we dive into everything Kylie and I have been reading

308
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,160
Speaker 2: for now, though, that is it for today. Tomorrow it's

309
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,159
Speaker 2: an Zac Day, so we won't be around. We'll be

310
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,160
Speaker 2: back on Friday with I'll Do Better Tomorrow. The Happy

311
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,320
Speaker 2: Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

312
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer and for more information

313
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,639
Speaker 2: about making your family happier, we'd love for you to

314
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 2: visit us at happy families dot com dot you and

315
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,000
Speaker 2: check out my book, The Parenting Revolution