1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,000
Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line is the Independent member

2
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,480
Speaker 1: Farara lu and Robin Lamley. Good morning to you, Robin,

3
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,720
Speaker 1: Good morning Katie, Robin, thanks so much for your time

4
00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:13,160
Speaker 1: this morning. What are you hearing in Alice Springs around

5
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,120
Speaker 1: this situation with the Member for Brakley?

6
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 2: Well, not much really, Katie. I mean, I don't think

7
00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 2: people in Alice Springs are concerned or alarmed or even

8
00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:33,760
Speaker 2: probably aware of this story involving Josh. You know, it's

9
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 2: interesting to spend the work in dah and the chaos

10
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,560
Speaker 2: and theory of politics in Darwin and you come home

11
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,400
Speaker 2: to little old Alice Springs and it's quite a leveling

12
00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 2: experience because really, I don't think people are concerned about

13
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 2: this at all. I did speak to Josh this morning,

14
00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 2: just caught up with him briefly. He hasn't been charged.

15
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,760
Speaker 2: You know that there's obviously a story to be told

16
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,440
Speaker 2: to some extent, but I think territorians know as much

17
00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:08,919
Speaker 2: as what Josh does. At the moment.

18
00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,800
Speaker 1: It seems quite an unbelievable situation. You know that this

19
00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,160
Speaker 1: is all kind of unfolded, and I guess a lot

20
00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,240
Speaker 1: of people will really the ALP pushing it pretty hard.

21
00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,880
Speaker 1: Why wasn't he opening up front right from the get guy?

22
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,759
Speaker 2: Well, I've had the weekend to reflect on this, Katie,

23
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,160
Speaker 2: And you know, does this mean that every time a

24
00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,440
Speaker 2: member of Parliament is involved in any sort of car

25
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,440
Speaker 2: accident or accident, that we have to front the media

26
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,720
Speaker 2: and talk about it. I mean, you know, we're all

27
00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:47,200
Speaker 2: involved in things that accidentally happened to us. And look,

28
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,600
Speaker 2: none of us know what this story is, including me.

29
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 2: I asked Josh any details, but he did offer the

30
00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 2: information that he hasn't been charged yet, so until he

31
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,880
Speaker 2: is charged, we just have to sit back and wait.

32
00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,320
Speaker 2: And yet there is a strong argument that he should

33
00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,320
Speaker 2: have possibly taken the lead on this, taken the front foot,

34
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,840
Speaker 2: come out and advise the media. There's always that argument,

35
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 2: but I think in this case, Josh appears to be

36
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 2: just as much in the dark as what the rest

37
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,320
Speaker 2: of us are. And until he has something to say,

38
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,960
Speaker 2: what's the point. I mean, the leader of the opposition

39
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,919
Speaker 2: has told you what she knows and he cannot even

40
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,600
Speaker 2: add to that at this point apparently from what I understand,

41
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 2: so I think we just all need to take a

42
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,720
Speaker 2: deep breath. That the mess the police also has to

43
00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 2: be very careful that he's not involving himself in an

44
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 2: ongoing police investigation here. I mean, he obviously has information

45
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 2: at his disposal that others don't have because of his position,

46
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,959
Speaker 2: and he just has be a bit careful himself.

47
00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,359
Speaker 1: I think, so, do you reckon he could be privy

48
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,880
Speaker 1: to information that Josh potentially isn't possibly?

49
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,120
Speaker 2: I mean, the Minister for Police and the Commissioner for

50
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:18,760
Speaker 2: Police have a particular relationship, and I remember when I

51
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,600
Speaker 2: was acting Chief Minister at different times during the time

52
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 2: that Terry Mills was Chief Minister, he would go away

53
00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,359
Speaker 2: and I would sometime sometimes act in that position. For

54
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,560
Speaker 2: the small amount of time that we held those positions,

55
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,560
Speaker 2: it wasn't uncommon for the Police Commissioner to just advise

56
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 2: the Chief Minister or as the Minister for Police of

57
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,720
Speaker 2: certain things that had gone on, particularly involving high profile people,

58
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,200
Speaker 2: just to give minister the heads up. I don't know

59
00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 2: if that still happens, and I don't know to what

60
00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,960
Speaker 2: level of information The Minister for Police case Brent Potter

61
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,320
Speaker 2: would be pretty too, but I think he has to

62
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,880
Speaker 2: be very very careful of where he goes with this.

63
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 1: I mean, he claimed on the show he claimed on

64
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:11,760
Speaker 1: the show a few minutes ago that he only found

65
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 1: out about it through the ABC News on Thursday night,

66
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:15,720
Speaker 1: when the rest of us.

67
00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:21,599
Speaker 2: Did, Well, that may well be the case, or it

68
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,720
Speaker 2: may not be the case. I mean, I've been around

69
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,160
Speaker 2: a bit longer than Brenton. I know that certain things

70
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:33,279
Speaker 2: are communicated to ministers because on a needs to know basis. Look,

71
00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,120
Speaker 2: and all I'm saying is Brent Potter is a minister

72
00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,840
Speaker 2: and he needs to get out of this debate, I

73
00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:50,279
Speaker 2: think because he could potentially contaminate this investigation if he's

74
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,800
Speaker 2: making public statements about things that may or may not

75
00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,800
Speaker 2: have occurred. I mean I did listen to him on

76
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,719
Speaker 2: Friday Friday when he came out and it made a

77
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:07,800
Speaker 2: statement about this alleged incident with Josh. I mean, he

78
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,280
Speaker 2: was sort of standing on shaky ground. I thought at

79
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:11,000
Speaker 2: the time.

80
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 1: Well, Robin, there is you know, it's not the only

81
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,720
Speaker 1: thing that's happened. That's for sure last week in politics,

82
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,280
Speaker 1: and you and I had certainly discussed the chance he

83
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 1: paid shares fiasco. A bit of an update on that.

84
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,440
Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether you've seen or not, but the

85
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,920
Speaker 1: NT Department of Health did confirm with us on Friday

86
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,159
Speaker 1: that Since September twenty twenty three, met Cash Food and

87
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 1: Grocery Convenience Division has been a supplier on the panel

88
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,440
Speaker 1: contract for the supply and delivery of food products for

89
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,240
Speaker 1: hospitals and correctional facilities in the Northern Territory. So they're

90
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,919
Speaker 1: one of seventeen supplies on that panel contract, each of

91
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,120
Speaker 1: which was assessed in accordance with the Northern Territory Government's

92
00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,200
Speaker 1: procurement rules. So there is obviously rules and regulations in

93
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,000
Speaker 1: place when it comes to that procurement, but there are

94
00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,200
Speaker 1: still sort of murky waters here, many would argue when

95
00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,720
Speaker 1: it comes to this situation that the Attorney General found

96
00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 1: himself in.

97
00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Katie, and I listened to your program on Friday

98
00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 2: morning the week that was, and I listened to the

99
00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,440
Speaker 2: Attorney General, Chancey Paik trying to desperately draw a comparison

100
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:23,760
Speaker 2: between his mismanagement of his conflicts of interests and Joshua

101
00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,440
Speaker 2: Bergne being involved in a car accident in which he

102
00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,240
Speaker 2: may or may not be charged. Now, I thought that

103
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,479
Speaker 2: that was a bit rich. The two are completely different.

104
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,720
Speaker 2: Chancey is a minister. He has responsibility and power over

105
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,080
Speaker 2: decisions around the allocation of public funds and he has

106
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,839
Speaker 2: failed to properly manage his conflict of interest. Yes, he

107
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,160
Speaker 2: declared his interests on the Register of Interests, that he

108
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,599
Speaker 2: has not ruled out the fact that he did not

109
00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 2: properly declare his interests amongst his colleagues in this gushions

110
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,799
Speaker 2: in and out of cabinet. He definitely did not recuse

111
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,480
Speaker 2: himself from debating issues around alcohol in the public domain.

112
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,200
Speaker 2: We know that, and we cannot be reassured that he

113
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,760
Speaker 2: recused himself from making decisions around alcohol policy as a

114
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:23,240
Speaker 2: part of cabinet. So whilst all those questions remain unanswered

115
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,800
Speaker 2: to the satisfaction of most Territorians, I think Chancey Paiker

116
00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 2: is in a whole world of trouble and so is

117
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,120
Speaker 2: Evil Lawla if she chooses to defend him.

118
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 1: And it seems like they are sort of standing firm

119
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: at this point as well. Robert, it doesn't seem like

120
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,520
Speaker 1: we're going to to see much change in this space.

121
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:46,560
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm wrong, well know, because from what I'm told

122
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 2: along the corridors of Parliament House is that his chance

123
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,440
Speaker 2: he was to be disposed or if he chose to

124
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 2: fall on his sword like Natasha files did basically the

125
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 2: same sort of thing than the likelihood of someone like

126
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:09,200
Speaker 2: Joel Bowden, who's not very popular amongst his cabinet colleagues

127
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,320
Speaker 2: and Parliamentary caucus colleagues, might end up as the deputy

128
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 2: Chief Minister. So you know, I think they're sort of

129
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,560
Speaker 2: weighing it all up and thinking, well, better the devil.

130
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 2: We know, we'll see how, if chance, you can survive this,

131
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 2: and as opposed to having someone with an enormous ego

132
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 2: who they don't particularly like him as deputy Chief Minister.

133
00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 2: That's what I'm hearing.

134
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's wait and see what happens.

135
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:35,840
Speaker 2: Robin.

136
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 1: Let me ask you about what actually invited you on

137
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 1: the show about now last a year. Towards the end

138
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,559
Speaker 1: of last year, is my understanding, you asked some questions

139
00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,760
Speaker 1: of the former Chief Minister about the use of taxpayers

140
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,839
Speaker 1: money being spent in the leading to the election. Can

141
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,160
Speaker 1: you tell me exactly what you asked and if you've

142
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,200
Speaker 1: had a response to that written question.

143
00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,160
Speaker 2: Well, I haven't had a response to that question, and

144
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 2: it was pretty much as you put it. People may

145
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,680
Speaker 2: remember that, well, they probably won't remember because it was

146
00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,760
Speaker 2: two years ago. I referred this whole miss alleged misuse

147
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,560
Speaker 2: of public funds by the former Chief Minister, Michael Gunner

148
00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:21,199
Speaker 2: and various other ministers. They This story was revealed by

149
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,000
Speaker 2: the Northern Territory Independent online newspaper Chris Walsh, again digging

150
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:30,319
Speaker 2: around doing his investigative stuff, he revealed, to my satisfaction,

151
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,240
Speaker 2: through Freedom in Information documents that he was able to

152
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,320
Speaker 2: get from the government that during the caretaker period, those

153
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,720
Speaker 2: few weeks leading up to an election, where basically only

154
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,920
Speaker 2: essential business should be undertaken by ministers, that Gunner and

155
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:53,440
Speaker 2: various other ministers attended remote communities, coinciding with pretty polling

156
00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,240
Speaker 2: on those communities. So wow, I was satisfied that it

157
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,400
Speaker 2: was a blatant case of missus use of taxpayers money

158
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:06,280
Speaker 2: during the twenty twenty election. Now fast forward to where

159
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,640
Speaker 2: we are now February twenty twenty four. I asked a

160
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,760
Speaker 2: couple of questions at the end of last year, basically

161
00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 2: along those lines, will you be how will you using

162
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 2: public money in money? Sorry, will there be any accountability

163
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,680
Speaker 2: of ministerial travel and so forth during the caretaker period

164
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 2: that we're coming up to in August? And I still

165
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,680
Speaker 2: haven't received an answer to that effect.

166
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 1: So no written response or no response at all from.

167
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 2: The government spots at all. And that ICAC case that

168
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 2: I referred to the K Commissioner two years ago referring

169
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,440
Speaker 2: Gunner for the misuse of alleged misuse of public money

170
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:53,840
Speaker 2: during the twenty twenty election is still open to my knowledge.

171
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,320
Speaker 2: I haven't been in contact for the IK Commissioner for

172
00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,840
Speaker 2: some time, but I haven't been advised that it's closed,

173
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,480
Speaker 2: and I haven't been advised with the investigations. I'm going,

174
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,760
Speaker 2: but I'm going because that really was a compelling case

175
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,480
Speaker 2: of what I thought was an alleged misuse of public money.

176
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,679
Speaker 1: And the other question, the other question that you asked

177
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,439
Speaker 1: is is the government or you know, will the chief

178
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,280
Speaker 1: Minister of the day it was Natasha Files at that time,

179
00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,280
Speaker 1: disclose of relevant preventative measures in the public interest. I

180
00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,840
Speaker 1: actually think that's an incredibly important question to ask. No

181
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 1: matter what has or has not gone on in the past,

182
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 1: it's about making sure that taxpayers money is not used

183
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,400
Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form in the leading to

184
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,960
Speaker 1: an election. I know that everybody doesn't matter what side

185
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 1: of politics you sit on, everybody would argue that they don't. However,

186
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,839
Speaker 1: there does need to be some preventative measures in place

187
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,400
Speaker 1: to ensure that it doesn't happen.

188
00:11:55,120 --> 00:12:01,559
Speaker 2: Well, isn't it sad that prevented his measure are required

189
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 2: that we can't trust the government of the day to

190
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,360
Speaker 2: not use public money to campaign with I mean turning

191
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,000
Speaker 2: up coincidentally on a number of occasions when in remote

192
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 2: communities that governor hadn't been to for probably years, on

193
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 2: the day of polling, where these Aboriginal people living in

194
00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,880
Speaker 2: Remaine areas are heading off to vote one way or another.

195
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,600
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really unacceptable. I think I can say

196
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,240
Speaker 2: that I had concerns about misconducts at least possible corruption

197
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,199
Speaker 2: in what I could see had happened in twenty twenty.

198
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 2: And yes, my question was to whoever is the chief

199
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,439
Speaker 2: Minister at the time, and it wasn't. But now it's

200
00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 2: either Lawler. How are you going to make sure that

201
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,040
Speaker 2: this doesn't happen again?

202
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 1: Well, I reckon it's an incredibly important question to ask,

203
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,640
Speaker 1: so we'll stay on to it anyway, Robin. I'm not

204
00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 1: sure whether it will help in any way, but it's

205
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 1: important as well that the issues are high lighted, and

206
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 1: this type of thing is highlighted, particularly when you asked

207
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,679
Speaker 1: it last year, so we'll see what we can find out.

208
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,920
Speaker 1: I always appreciate your time, Robin. Thank you very much

209
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:11,360
Speaker 1: for having a chat with me this morning.

210
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,000
Speaker 2: My pleasure, Katie, thank you