1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily OS. This is the 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: Daily OS. Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and 3 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday, the nineteenth of January. 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: I'm Billy fitz Simons. 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: I'm Emily Donahue. 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: Hearings have begun in the first case of its kind 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: at the International Court of Justice. West African country, the Gambia, 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: has brought a case against me and Mar for alleged 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: acts of genocide against the Rahinga people. When legal proceedings 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: were launched in twenty nineteen, it was the first time 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: an alleged genocide had been submitted to the ICJ by 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: a country not directly affected by the genocide. The verdict 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: of the unprecedented case could influence future cases, like the 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: pending trial against Israel brought by South Africa for alleged 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: acts of genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. Today, we're going 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: to explain everything you need to know about the ICJ 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: case against me and Mar. Emily, Welcome back to the podcast. 18 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: Thanks thanks for having me. 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: This is a huge and complex story Before we get 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: into the legal proceedings. For anyone who's not super familiar 21 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: with me and Mar, do you want to just kind 22 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: of set the scene, tell us a bit more about 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: the country. 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: Of course. So Me and Mar, which was also known 25 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: as Burma until nineteen eighty nine, is actually the largest 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 2: country by area in mainland Southeast Asia. In the nineteen sixties, 27 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: there was a military coup that put the country under 28 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: totalitarian control for decades. This looked like violent crackdowns against 29 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: anti government protesters and mass killings. The country has faced 30 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: further political turmoil since another significant military coup in February 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, when the armed forces seize power from 32 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: the democratically elected government. 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: I was going to say, I remember that military coup 34 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, So clearly that was absolutely massive 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: news when it happened, and the country is still dealing 36 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: with the aftermath. 37 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: Of that crew right, Yeah, definitely. 38 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: Okay, So we know there has been civil unrest in 39 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: the region for a while. Now, where did the genocide 40 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: allegations coming to this? 41 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure. So a Muslim ethnic minority called the Rahinga 42 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: have lived in Me and Mar for generations, particularly in 43 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: the Recine state, since the nineteen eighties. So during that 44 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: time of unrest, they've been denied Me and Mars citizenship, 45 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 2: and in twenty sixteen, a Rahinga militant group called the 46 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: Arakhan Rahinga Salvation Army, which I'll just refer to as ASSA, 47 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: attacked police in the Rekine on multiple occasions, and following that, 48 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: a UN report states that the ME and Mar Army 49 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: forced Rhinga out of the area, killing them and burning 50 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 2: their villages. And it only escalated from there. In August 51 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, when a ME and mah Army battalion was 52 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: sent to the Recine, the ASA attacked police and army officers, 53 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: killing twelve. In response, ME and Mahr's army burned Rahinga 54 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: villages and killed thousands of civilians. Human rights groups also 55 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 2: reported Rehinga women and girls were raped and sexually assaulted 56 00:02:58,280 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: by the military. 57 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: Just absolutely horrific details. How did the Rahinga people respond. 58 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: Around seven hundred thousand Rohinga fled to Me and Mars 59 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: western border to Bangladesh, where around three hundred thousand Rohinga 60 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: people who had previously fled Me and Mars were in refuge. 61 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 2: Cox's Bazaar in southern Bangladesh is a city housing the 62 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: world's largest refugee camp and to date more than a 63 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: million Rhinga live there. Humanitarian groups have reported a lack 64 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: of access to necessities like clean water, toilets, education, shelter, food, 65 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: and space. 66 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: So essentially they responded those who survived by fleeing the 67 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: country by leaving. And so we're talking about it today 68 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: because this case is now before the International Court of Justice. 69 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: What do we need to know about the International Court 70 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: of Justice. 71 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: So the ICJ has also been called the World Court, 72 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: and it's the UN's top court. It rules on disputes 73 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: between states, including on issues like this genocide. And in 74 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, the Gambia submitted a case to the ICJ 75 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: accusing Me and mar of genocidal acts against Rohinga. And 76 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: this references that two thousand and seventeen crackdown. 77 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: Okay, And so this is where that term genocide comes in. 78 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: How does the ICJ define genocide? 79 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: Sure, So the UN have something called the Genocide Convention, 80 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: or that's the shortened name at least, and it explicitly 81 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: defines genocide as quote, acts committed with intent to destroy 82 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 2: in whole or in part, national, ethnical, racial, or religious groups. 83 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: Both Me and mart and the Gambia are signatories to 84 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: that convention, got it? 85 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: Okay? You said earlier that this case is the first 86 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: of its kind, But the ICJ has ruled on genocide 87 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: cases before, so how is this the first of its kind? 88 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: Sure? So, in the past ICJ cases about genocide have 89 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: been brought forward by a country alleging that the other 90 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: has committed the active genocide against them. So a good 91 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 2: example is the last ICJ case about genocide, which was 92 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: in two thousand and seven, and the ICJ ruled that 93 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: Serbia committed a genocide in a town in Bosnia and 94 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 2: Herzegovina in nineteen ninety five. So that case was brought 95 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: against Serbia by Bosnia and Herzegovina. But when the Gambia 96 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: took action in twenty nineteen, it was the first time 97 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 2: an alleged genocide had been submitted by a country not 98 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: directly affected by the accused. 99 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: And I think it's worth mentioning that there's also now 100 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: since the Gambia launched this, South Africa has now done 101 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: a similar thing with Israel. 102 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that's true. So South Africa has made a 103 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 2: similar move to the Gambia, and in twenty twenty three 104 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: it put forward an alleged genocide case against Israel despite 105 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: not being directly impacted by the accusations, and those accusations 106 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: are that Israel has committed a genocide against the Palestinian 107 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: people and failed in its obligation to prevent a genocide 108 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: in Gaza as specified under the Genocide Convention, which those 109 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 2: two countries are also signatories of. 110 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: Right. But the reason why Me and Mar is the 111 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: first one is because it's the first one that's going 112 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: to trial, which is why we're talking about it today. 113 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 2: That's right. So this one is an active trial, whereas 114 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: the Israel case is pending. 115 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: Got it okay? And so we're focusing on the Me 116 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: and mart one today because, like we said, that it's 117 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: the one that currently is at trial. Tell us more 118 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: about that case, sure. 119 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: So the trial began last Monday at the ICJ, and 120 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 2: that's based in the Dutch city of the Hague. The 121 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: Gambia alleges quote Meh and Mar acted with the intention 122 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: to destroy the Rohinga as a group in whole or 123 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: in part, very much along the lines of that convention 124 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: that I read earlier. Among the evidence the Gambia references 125 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 2: is a previous report that the UN did about me 126 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: and Mar's actions towards the Rohinga people, and that report 127 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 2: alleges that me and mar is quote failing in its 128 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: obligation to prevent genocide, and it details chronic persecution of 129 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 2: the Rohinga people. 130 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: One thing I quickly wanted to ask is we said 131 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: that this was initially launched in twenty nineteen. Yes, it's 132 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: now twenty twenty six. That is nearly seven years it's 133 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: taken for this to get to trial. Why has it 134 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: taken so long? I imagine it has something to do 135 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: with the fact that international law is just so complex. 136 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And the shortest explanation that I can 137 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: give you is that there are several considerations in the 138 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: process before the ICJ can turn its full attention towards 139 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: the allegation, and nothing seems to move particularly quickly in 140 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: the World Court. So we're talking about a bench of 141 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: more than a dozen judges from all around the world, 142 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: and they must come to a majority decision. They basically 143 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: start from square one in terms of their legal reasoning 144 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: for each decision, so they're not obliged to rely on 145 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 2: a precedent. But also in this case specifically, there were 146 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: disruptions in twenty twenty one when me and Mar's government 147 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: was overthrown in a military coup, as we talked about before, 148 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: and we've also had the pandemic in that time. So 149 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: you also need to remember that the court is considering 150 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: an allegation of the world's most serious crime of genocide, 151 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: which makes the process even longer. 152 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: Okay, So me and my is facing this allegation of genocide. 153 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: How have they responded to that allegation? Have they denied it? 154 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: Well, we're yet to hear their response in the trial. 155 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: But in a report submitted to the ICJ in November, 156 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: me and my representatives said that a twenty twenty five 157 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: UN report on its human rights situation quote deliberately excludes 158 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: and fails to recognize me and my efforts towards repatriation 159 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: and the actual situation on the ground. They said that 160 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: they quote reject the baseless and one sided quotes by 161 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: the UN officials. Got it. 162 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: So they are effectively rejecting these allegations. 163 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: Yes, so in the past they've rejected these allegations, but 164 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: we are yet to hear them on trial, so we'll 165 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: have to wait and see what they officially say in 166 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: the court. 167 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: Got it? 168 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: Okay? 169 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: So when do we find out the outcome of this case. 170 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: So the trial runs until the end of this month 171 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: and the judgment could take a further couple of months 172 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: after that, so I think we're going to need to 173 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: watch this space for a little bit. I think it's 174 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: also worth mentioning that there is a separate case before 175 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: the International Criminal Court, which is the UN court that 176 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 2: tries individuals. 177 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: So just to clarify that, So that ICJ, which is 178 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: what we've been talking about today, that tries countries and states, 179 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: but then the International Criminal Court is the one that 180 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: tries individuals. 181 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: One hundred percent, you nailed it, Yeah, got it. And 182 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: that one is investigating the current acting president of me 183 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: and mar on charges of crimes against humanity over those 184 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 2: same twenty seventeen attacks against three him. 185 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's dealing with allegations of a similar nature, 186 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: but it's looking at trying an individual rather than a country. 187 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: Putting that aside, before you mentioned that the result of 188 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: the trial might have implications for other cases, and they 189 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: just quickly want to come back to that before we 190 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: wrap up. We do have this upcoming trial put forward 191 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: by South Africa against Israel. How could this decision with 192 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: Me and Mar affect that case. 193 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: So it's a little bit confusing because the ICJ doesn't 194 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: use precedent in its cases like common law does. This 195 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: just means that previous court decisions that would ordinarily inform 196 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 2: the judgment of a case are not necessarily mandatory to address. However, 197 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: legal experts have analyzed the ICJ's decision making process and 198 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: found that it does often refer to its previous decisions 199 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: to support new ones. As for that case against Israel, 200 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: the outcome of the Me and Mar trial could inform 201 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: how that case proceeds and what the judgment looks like. 202 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: The next step in that case is for Israel to 203 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: rest bond too the ICJ, and the deadline for that 204 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: is March twelve, So we'll be looking out with eager 205 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 2: eyes for both of these trials. 206 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, m there has been so much to 207 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: unpack in this case and its potential implications. Thank you 208 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: for unpacking all that. It's very complex. 209 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: It certainly is a landmark case. 210 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: So thank you, Billy, and thank you so much for 211 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: listening to this episode of The Daily Ods. We will 212 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: be back this afternoon with your evening headlines, but until then, 213 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: we hope you have a lovely day. 214 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 215 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. 216 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 217 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 218 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay 219 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both 220 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: past and present.