1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: You know that improv theory where they say you never 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: say no, you all say yes, and we hate that. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: We don't use that at all. That's the worst idea. 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 2: That was Elan Lee. You probably haven't heard of him, 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 2: but there's a good chance you've played the game. He 6 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: is most famous for co creating Exploding Kittens. Exploding Kittens 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: remains one of the most backed Kickstarter campaigns in history, 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: raising nearly nine million dollars across over two hundred thousand 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 2: backers in just thirty days, and also Exploding Kittens is 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: one of my family's absolute favorite games to play. Elan 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: is now the CEO of Exploding Kittens, and under his leadership, 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: the company has spawned over thirty different games, including some 13 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 2: of my favorites, such as Throw Throw Burrito and Poetry 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: for Neanderthals, with more than sixty million games sold since 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: it's founding in twenty fifteen. In this conversation, Elan unpacks 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: the psychology behind his company's success, how to turn fans 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: into super fans, why creative constraints can spark brilliance, and 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: how to lead teams through thousands of rejected ideas without 19 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: anyone's ego getting bruised. 20 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 21 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 3: and strategies. 22 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: For optimizing your day. 23 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: I'm your host, Doctor Amantha Imber. 24 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: I want to start by talking about the Exploiting Kitten's 25 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: Kickstarter campaign, which I think is still one of the 26 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: most successful campaigns that Kickstarter has ever had. 27 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: Isn't it ridiculous? Ten years in and we still have 28 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: more backers than any Kickstarter campaign in history. 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: How many backers was it in total? 30 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: I think the official numbers around two hundred and nineteen thousand. 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: There were more stragglers that came on afterwards and we 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: had to, you know, like let them in a under 33 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: the radar, but the official numbers is right there, just 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: under two hundred and twenty. 35 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: That's absolutely nots. Tell me what do you put that 36 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: success down to? What are your lessons looking back on that? 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 1: There's two really important things I learned about Kickstarter, and 38 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: let me say these are very unique to exploding kittens, 39 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of people have replicated this since then, 40 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: so they don't work as well anymore. But I will 41 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: at least tell you where we started. I'll let you 42 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: kind of modify it in your own brain however you 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: would like. First and foremost, we did not start from zero. 44 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: We did a few things before the campaign launched to 45 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: make sure that day one was really, really big. And 46 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: the easiest thing was my partner, Matt Inman, who is 47 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: the creator and the author of the Oatmeal, the online comic, 48 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: and so he spent ten years creating following, just creating 49 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: incredible content so that on day one, when we launched, 50 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: he's able to post to his community and say, guess what, 51 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: I made a game, And that's a huge statement. It's 52 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: like such an important, exciting statement that all of his 53 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: fans show up and they back the project because they 54 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: trust him and he's spent ten years building that trust. 55 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: The other tool that we used that I think is 56 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: a really important one that goes massively underused, is you 57 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: get to create a preview page on Kickstarter, and what 58 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: that means is you get to build your whole campaign 59 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: in advance. You get to share that page and its 60 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: eventual launch date with as many people as you would like. 61 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: And the tool that we used quite a bit was 62 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: we shared it with people that we knew had reach. 63 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: And I'm going to give you a huge peak behind 64 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: the curtain. Here. We intentionally inserted errors, spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, 65 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: the lack of paragraph breaks, images that wouldn't load. And 66 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: the reason is not because we like to be sloppy, 67 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: but it's because nobody wants to look at a preview 68 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: page and say this is great good luck, like what 69 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: good is that? They're not going to actually share that. 70 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: But if they look at the page and say, I 71 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: love this good luck. By the way, you have a 72 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: typo in your title. Did you see that? And we respond, oh, 73 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: you're so smart, Oh my goodness, thank you, thank you, 74 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: thank you. Yes, we'll fix that right away. Without you, 75 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: this thing would have probably failed. We would have looked 76 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: so dumb. And then when we launch those people want 77 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: to post about the campaign. So it was a little tricky, 78 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,559 Speaker 1: little psychological whatever. But it worked. It worked really really well. 79 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: And now that I've said it out loud, it probably 80 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: won't work at all. But there you go. 81 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: I love that. I think I've never heard that into strategy. 82 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: Tell me about how you turn casual fans into super fans, 83 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: because I've heard that this is quite important in how 84 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 2: you've achieved such success, for sure. 85 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: So I have a kind of a fundamental theory about 86 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: in game design, which is I think that games should 87 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: not be entertaining. I think games should make the players 88 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: that you're playing with entertaining. It should just be a 89 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: tool set to accommodate that. And along with that, there's 90 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of corollaries that kind of emerge from 91 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: that fundamental premise. So, if you imagine you are playing 92 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: a game for the first time, everything about the game, 93 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: hopefully if it's designed well at least if it's one 94 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: of my games, is going to reward you for playing 95 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: with the other players. You're going to look across the 96 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: table and you're going to see maybe someone that you 97 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: love and trust across the table from you give you 98 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: kind of a devious smile, and now you're wonder, oh no, oh, 99 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: what cards have they got? Oh no, what's about to happen? Well, 100 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: maybe I should preempt that and play something before they 101 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: get a chance to enact whatever horrible plan they have 102 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: concocted in their mind. And it's that relationship that drives 103 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: the game forward. I also believe that when you play 104 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: your second game, you learn from all the previous interactions 105 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: you had in the first game, and you start to 106 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: change your strategy. You start to use the tool set 107 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: that the game provides, the cards, the board, the dice, whatever, 108 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: to alter the way the game is played and hopefully 109 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: come up with a better outcome than the first game. 110 00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: And that will repeat on your third game, and four 111 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: game and fifth game. And that's just basic gameplay. But 112 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: here's how it creates super fans. Slowly, methodically, and in 113 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: tiny little baby steps, you are creating a sense of mastery. 114 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: Each player, for themselves is having an experience that lets 115 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: them get better and better and better at this thing 116 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: in a way that they have discovered. The game did 117 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: not hand this to them. The game just said, here's 118 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: the tools, here's other people. Go have fun, and slowly 119 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: you figure out I know how to have you more fun. 120 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: I'm getting better at this game. All my opponents are 121 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: getting better too, so I have to up my game 122 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: every single time I play. And that, I believe is 123 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: how you create super fans. Right, That's how everyone walks 124 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: away from that experience with this sense of ownership, this 125 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: sense of discovery, the sense that, like, you are now 126 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: a better version of yourself, and you have this game 127 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: to think for it. And now don't you want to 128 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: go out and tell all your friends. 129 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 2: I don't think that many listeners are experts in game design, 130 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 2: and so something I would love you to explain is 131 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: what is a core gameplay loop? Because from what I understand, 132 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: this is critical to your creative process and creating a 133 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: new game. 134 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: Look, it's a totally geeky insider game designer term, but 135 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: it is very important, and you actually already know what 136 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 1: it is. You've just never heard the term before. Any 137 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: game you've ever loved that you've played over and over again. 138 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: If you look very carefully at it, you will be 139 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: able to identify the core gameplay loop. And all that 140 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: is is a very simple interaction that you repeat over 141 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: and over and over and over again to get you 142 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: from the beginning of the game to the end of 143 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: the game. It might be a trading cards mechanic. It 144 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: might be an acquire property and collect rent mechanic. Whatever 145 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: it is, if you look carefully enough, it's the thing 146 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: that you just keep doing, and hopefully the best games 147 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: the ones you play over and over again. It's not identical. 148 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: Every time it gets better, it gets enhanced, the tension increases, 149 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: the stakes increase. Whatever it is adds a little bit 150 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: to that core gameplay loop, so that every time you 151 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: go around loop you get more and more satisfaction, joy, intrigued, tension, fear, 152 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: whatever it is that the game wants to enhance, you 153 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: get more and more out of that loop. That's the driver. 154 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: And so are there a set number of core gameplay 155 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: loops that exist? Is it kind of like story acts 156 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: where you've kind of got like your seven fundamental story 157 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: acts in movie world? 158 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: There probably are. But the good news is games are 159 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: still early enough in their evolution that we have not 160 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: discovered all of them for sure, Like there's a bunch 161 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: that get repeated over and over. But I pick like 162 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: my three favorite games every year because I play hundreds 163 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: of them, and every year I am shocked and delighted 164 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: to find at least three brand new gameplay loops that 165 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: I've never even heard of before. 166 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's take exploding kittens, which I've got are 167 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: very well used set of explaining kittens describe what is 168 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: the core gameplay loop, and exploding kittens just kind of 169 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: bring that concept to life. 170 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: I'll tell you a little bit of the origin story. 171 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: I was watching a movie and in Deer Hunter, they 172 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: have a Russian Roulette scene, And if you don't know, 173 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: Russian Roulette is the most insane game ever played by 174 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: human beings. You take a revolver with six chambers, you 175 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: put one bullet in it. You spin the revolver and 176 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: you hold it up to your head and you pull 177 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: the trigger and you hope it doesn't fire the bullet 178 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: killing you. And if you survive, you hand it to 179 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: the next player who repeats this thing, and you keep 180 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: going until somebody dies. I watched this in a scene 181 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: in a movie and just thought, like, this is crazy. 182 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: This is absolutely insane. And here's there's two ways to 183 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: play Russianroulette. There's pass it around and rotate the revolver 184 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: every time. The crazier way is you're not allowed to 185 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: rotate it, meaning first time you pull the trigger, there's 186 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: one and a sixth chance you die, the second time 187 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: there's one in five, then one in four, and eventually 188 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: one hundred percent chance that you will die when you 189 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: pull the trigger. So I looked at that and I said, 190 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: that looks a lot like core gameplay loop, Like that's 191 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: really interesting. Not that I want to ever, ever, ever 192 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: play that game with those kind of stakes, but what 193 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: if you take a deck of cards. Let's say it's 194 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: fifty two cards, like a standard poker deck, and you 195 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: put in one joker into that deck. That's the bullet. 196 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: The first time you shuffle that deck and then draw 197 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: a card, you have a one in fifty two chance 198 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: of drawing the joker and dying. But if you don't 199 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: draw the joker, the odds are very much in your 200 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: favor that you will not draw it. If you don't 201 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: draw the joker. Now, what if that card helped you 202 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: avoid the joker next time? So? What if that card 203 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: let you peek at a card before you draw? What 204 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: if that card lets you force somebody else to draw 205 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: instead of you? What if that card let you steal 206 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: cards from other players to enhance your chances next time? 207 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: Like on and on it goes. Everything I just said 208 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: is an enhancement to a core gameplay loop. And as 209 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: the game continues, the tension and drama increases, it ratchets 210 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: up because now there's fewer and fewer safe cards left. 211 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: What then, with that gameplay the loop, why was exploding 212 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: Kittens like so successful? Do you think? Because I can 213 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: imagine there are some pretty like dulla ways to apply 214 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: the idea of Russian Roulette to a cod game. 215 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: Look, I think there's two really important things about Exploding Kittens, 216 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: and there's two really important things about every game. One is, 217 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: it's got to be a really good game. What I 218 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: just described to you has proven itself to be a 219 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: really good game because it's simple to learn, easy to 220 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: pick up, easy to explain to a friend. You can 221 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: play it over and over again, and the game will 222 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: be completely different every time you play. That's a really 223 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: good game. Second is how do you sell that game? 224 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: And it is equally important because without this a good game, 225 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: the best game makes no difference in the world. And 226 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: so we knew how to sell this game. We knew 227 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: oatmeal art on every card is going to be really important. 228 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: We knew a really funny name is going to be 229 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: really important. We knew the Internet loves cats, so let's 230 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: theme it everything about cats. Like we were able to 231 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: identify all the things that would enable us to sell 232 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: this game. We found a way to say, really like 233 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 1: Russian Roulette with cards, really like this notion of cute, 234 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: adorable kittens that you're more scared of than anything else. 235 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: Because that dichotomy is really fun. Let's mash those two 236 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: things together. As long as we can make them fit, 237 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: we know we'll have a hit on our hands. That's interesting. 238 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: Sorry, I want to ask I guess about that decision 239 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: making process. Like when I was chatting to my daughter Frankie, 240 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 2: who's eleven years old and a massive fan of what 241 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: you've created, I said, what questions might you have for Elan? 242 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 2: And her first question is why not puppies? And I 243 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 2: want to know how do you make those decisions where 244 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: I guess, like what is going to be funnier? 245 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: I wish I could say I had a formula like something, 246 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: I could say, well, I drotted out on my whiteboard 247 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: and I figure it all out. But I will say this, 248 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: My partner, Matt Inman, has this secret ability, his superpower. 249 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: I kind of secretly when he's not around call him 250 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: the audience whisperer because she knows. He just knows when 251 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: he tells you. If you were to ask him this question, 252 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: if you were to say, what's funnier exploding kittens are 253 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: exploding puppies, you will, without hesitating say exploding kittens. And 254 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: if you were to ask him why, very likely he 255 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: will not be able to answer. But he's right, Matt 256 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: knows what is funny, when it's funny, how it should 257 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: be delivered to optimize the funny. And now my job 258 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: is game design and his job is audience whisperer. 259 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: I love that. I want to know where an idea 260 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: comes from. Like, what do you find is your You 261 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: know you've been doing this for I think ten years. 262 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 2: The company's ten year old. Is that right? Yeah? Yeah, 263 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 2: that's quitrazy. What's become your process for coming up with 264 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: new ideas for new games? 265 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: The thing that I found is most important whenever we 266 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: have like brainstorming sessions is constraints. I hate Blue Sky 267 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: brainstorming sessions. When we sit down you know, I work 268 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: with four other designers, five other designers now, so there's 269 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: a team of six of us. When we sit down 270 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: around a table and the idea is, hey, everyone, let's 271 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: come up with a game. We will spend three days 272 00:13:59,080 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: and come up with nothing. 273 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: It's just awful. 274 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: But if we go to a toy store and buy 275 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: twenty toys, and then we go to a pet store 276 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: and buy twenty pet toys, and then we go to 277 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: a pool supply store and buy twenty inflatable objects, and 278 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: then we put all of those on the table and 279 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: we say, grab two things, come up with a game. 280 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: Now we're cooking with gas. 281 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: What are some other constraints that you might bring into 282 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 2: the process. 283 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: So we focus a lot on audience constraints. So we 284 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: want to make sure we know the exploding kittens audience. 285 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: We know their age, we know their gender, we know 286 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: they're usually looking for games to bring to a party 287 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: as a gift or to a game night, like we 288 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: know all this stuff, so that's a really important one. 289 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: We know game length really important. The sweet spot for 290 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: us is a twenty minute game. So we know that 291 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: once you start playing a game and the twenty minute 292 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: markets and you're like still in the introductory phase, let's 293 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: stop working on that game. And then the final one 294 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: and maybe the most important hints on what I said, 295 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: which is we know we need games that we can 296 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: sell easily. So that means we have to come up 297 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: with one liners for the game, a one sentence description 298 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: of what this game is that not only can we 299 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: put on a website and on a box and on 300 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: social media, but that is so memorable and interesting that 301 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: when someone plays the game and reads that one liner, 302 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: it ingrains itself in their head and then they go 303 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: when they want to describe the game to all their 304 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: friends because they had this beautiful experience with mastery and progression. 305 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: Now they will use that one liner in order to 306 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: evangelize the game to everybody else. So if we can't 307 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: figure out a game that can be easily described in 308 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: one sentence, we will usually not pursue that game. 309 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: I find that so interesting, Like, I think that that 310 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: applies to so many different industries, different products and services, 311 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: not just game design. I heard you talk about the 312 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: quarterly design retreats that you have, and I would love 313 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: you to explain like what that process involves, because yeah, 314 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: I found it incredibly interesting. Thanks. 315 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of Look, there's no rocket science I'm 316 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: about to describe, but we have found that getting everyone 317 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: in the same room, physical location, making eye contact is 318 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: the best way to start with the game design process. 319 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: So we usually either use my house or we rent 320 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: an airbnb. Anyone who is remote we fly them in. 321 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: We usually do this for three days, and it's three 322 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: days of us all sleeping in the same place, eating 323 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: the same meals, like really really getting in there with 324 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: each other and making sure that like you're not distracted 325 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: by your phone you have no other meetings, there are 326 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: no other obligations, like all of the pressure that you 327 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: normally experience. We've all committed to put all of that 328 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: stuff on hold for these three days because we're going 329 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: to play. And more important than play is we're going 330 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: to iterate. All the best ideas that I've had, that 331 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: anyone has ever had start out as terrible ideas, and 332 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: they have to have room to evolve from terrible to great. 333 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: And you can only do that with focus, with relentlessness, 334 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: and with the passion. That is kind of like contagious 335 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: when we all get in the room together and somebody says, yes, 336 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: but what if? And then somebody else says, oh, I 337 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: like that, but what if this? And on and on 338 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: that process goes in order for us to either get 339 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: to great or to say this has no chance, let's 340 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: abandon it and move on. 341 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 2: What else would I be observing? Like if I was 342 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: a fly on the wall for this creative process where 343 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 2: you've you know, put away all the pressures of daily life, 344 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: what else would I observe that I would be like, Oh, wow, 345 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 2: that's interesting. 346 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: You know that improv theory where they say you never 347 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: say no, you alls say yes. And we hate that. 348 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: We don't use that at all. That's the worst idea. 349 00:17:58,320 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: We are very very. 350 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: Liberal with Yeah, that sucks. Let's just move on. And 351 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: that's great because we're going through so many ideas so quickly. 352 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: It's very important to not take any personal pride in anything. 353 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: Instead to say, here's why I don't think this thing 354 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: is going to work. Ever, let's not waste any more 355 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: time on it, because we are capable of generating a 356 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: thousand more ideas in the next hour. Let's move on. 357 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: And undoubtedly we are abandoning tons of gems in there, 358 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: stuff that could eventually be developed into something amazing if 359 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: we adopted the yes and theory. But we'd only be 360 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: going through two or three ideas a day. And what 361 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: I much prefer is to go through thousands a day 362 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: because the output for those meetings is incredible. And we 363 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: learned that right, like we started with yes and now 364 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: we're at no, kill it and on we go. 365 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 2: And how do you create the conditions so that people 366 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 2: and not just leaving with the ego in the rubbish ship? 367 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: How does that work? 368 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: It's just leadership. It's like I show I give everybody 369 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: permission to destroy my ideas immediately, and the first time 370 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: they do, I'm very careful to show Okay, yeah, cool, 371 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: let's pick up what about this, and I pick up 372 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: another thing, and as long as they can see, there's 373 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: no ego involved, nothing is taken personally. By the end 374 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: of their first session, especially when we have new designers 375 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: in there, by the end of those three days, everyone 376 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 1: is so proud of the like five or six beautiful 377 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: things that we have come up with that you know, Okay, 378 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: next time, I'm going to trust this process. It works 379 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: so well, so let's just go with it. 380 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 2: How are you making decisions? Because I imagine I mean, like, 381 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: if you're generating that many ideas, every idea that you're caping, 382 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 2: your killing involves it like essentially a decision, even if 383 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: it's a micro decision. What's the process for that. 384 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: As soon as somebody says to kill an idea, that's 385 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: usually the definitive answer, unless someone else wants to chime 386 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: in and say, wait a second, here's why I think 387 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: we should spend another minute on that. If a game 388 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: or a core loop has champion like that, we'll linger 389 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: on it for sure until all of those exceptions have 390 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: been exhausted and Once that happens, then we move on. 391 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: So it's a very collective decision making process. There is 392 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: no leader in the room. There's nobody with authority. It's 393 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: do we think this thing has legs or not. They 394 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: are very talented people in that room. We all trust 395 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: each other and so we just trust the group think 396 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: to get us through that process. 397 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: Coming up, Elan reveals what really happens inside his team's 398 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,479 Speaker 2: chaotic design retreats, where a thousand ideas are born and 399 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 2: most are killed within minutes. And he also shares how 400 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 2: they protect creative safety while dismantling each other's work and 401 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 2: why they're no kill it rule might be the secret 402 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: to lasting innovation. If you're looking for more tips to 403 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 2: improve the way you work, can Live. I write a 404 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have 405 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 2: helped me personally. 406 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. 407 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 3: That's Amantha dot com. Now I've heard that the sales 408 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 3: and marketing team join this retreat at some point. Can 409 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 3: you tell me why that is and what happens then? 410 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: So, we used to come out of these meetings with 411 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: like twelve ideas and our goal is like, okay, well, 412 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: now let's develop these ideas and you know three or 413 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: four of them will eventually see the light of day. 414 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: Now when we get our twelve ideas on day three, 415 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: the second half of day three is reserved for presentation, 416 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: and that means we open the doors to our little 417 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: Airbnb and the whole marketing and sales team comes in. 418 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: And these are the people responsible for figuring out what 419 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: the posts are on social media and selling to the 420 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: giant retailers in the world, and making sure that every 421 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: game is not only a good game, but paired with 422 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: that vital and essential ability to sell that game. And 423 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: so we pitched the game to them, and then we 424 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: brainstorm with them, what's the one liner for this? What 425 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: does the first fifteen seconds of a social media post 426 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: for this look like? Can you imagine watching footage of 427 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: this and thinking I want to play I'd be so 428 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: good at that. We are the game designers, they are 429 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: the marketers. If they cannot solve that problem, that's when 430 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: those games die. They could be the best games in 431 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: the world. Nothing personal will leave them in their little 432 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: notebook where all the notes were taken and say, yeah, 433 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: let's move on to one of the other twelve, we 434 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: came up with. 435 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: Wow, what's an example of a game where yourself and 436 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 2: the designers like this is gold, and sales and marketing said, 437 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: we cannot sell this. 438 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh this happened just last month. We had 439 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: our retreat and we came up with this game that 440 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: I was absolutely in love with. So there's this game 441 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: I used to play in elementary school called Horse, and 442 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: it's played on a basketball court. And what you do 443 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: is you take the basketball and you shoot it into 444 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: a hoop from anywhere you want, and then the next 445 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: person has to shoot it from that same location. If 446 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: they make it, they get a point. If they miss it, 447 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: they lose a point. Okay, great, that's the whole game. 448 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: So we thought, all right, what if we combined that 449 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: with like shuffleboard or horseshoes or a smaller kind of 450 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: parlor game where you're just tossing an object and trying 451 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: to get it to hit another object. 452 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: Okay, great, So we put. 453 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: Down an object somewhere in the room. Everybody stands on 454 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: the other side of the room. Now you have to 455 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: toss this object to hit that object. But here's the trick. 456 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: You get to apply any obstacle or constraint. You want 457 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: to yourself, Want to close your eyes? Cool, close your eyes? 458 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: Want to spin around three times before you throw it? Great? 459 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: Do that? Want to do it from the other room? Great? 460 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: Want somebody else to push you while you're throwing it? Great? 461 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: Do that? It was so much fun. We showed it 462 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: to the marketing team and they're like, oh, no way, Like, 463 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: there's just there's no way to show the right video 464 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: because objects are moving so far across a large space, 465 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: and there's so many cards involved, and the constraints are 466 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: very hard to understand immediately. You need to study them, 467 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: and how they overlap with each other is very complex. 468 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: And one player has to go and then we have 469 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: to wait, and then another player has to go and 470 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: they have to apply the same constraints. And now we're 471 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: at two minutes and all we have is fifteen seconds 472 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: and on and on and on. So, without any ego 473 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: and nothing personal, we said, cool, game's dead, let's move on. 474 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: Wow, do ideas that you're presenting to sales and marketing, 475 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: do ones that you're kind of lukewarm on get through 476 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 2: with this? Surprise is where sales and marketing are like, 477 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 2: oh my god, this is amazing. But you guys were thinking, Eh, 478 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: it's okay. 479 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yes, that's the beauty of this, right, Like, 480 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: we show them a lot of games that are kind 481 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: of half baked. We would never show them anything that 482 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: we think is terrible, but we do show them many 483 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: games that were like, Okay, this one didn't make it 484 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: quite across the finish line. There's something interesting, but we're 485 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: not sure what. So we actually have a game coming 486 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: out next year. It doesn't even have a name yet, 487 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 1: so I can't even spoil it. But it involved math, 488 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: and we're like, there's no way we're selling a math game. 489 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to do math. But we showed it to 490 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: them anyway, and we're like, here's this math game. And 491 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: the sales team said, okay, if you remove ninety percent 492 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: of the math and just leave addition, just addition. Anybody 493 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: can add two numbers together as long as they're single 494 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: digit numbers. What if you were just adding two things 495 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: together very quickly. Does the game survive that? And we 496 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: looked at it and we're like, yeah, the game survives that, sure, 497 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: no problem. And they said this is going to be 498 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,239 Speaker 1: the greatest game of all time. Like okay, I'm going 499 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: to trust you on this, and over the last six 500 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: months we have taken that little seed and developed it 501 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: into a spectacular game. It's going to be so great. 502 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: Right now, we're just calling it the used to be 503 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: math Game, and eventually we'll come up with a better 504 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: name for it. 505 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: I'm interested in naming something that struck me as a family. 506 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 2: We recently bought Coyote, one of your newer games that 507 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 2: you did with Tim Ferriss, and my daughter took out 508 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: the little pamphlet instruction guide, and then it's got a 509 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 2: few other games that you're promoting that you might like, 510 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: and now she's become obsessed with I'm going to get 511 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: the name wrong. It was having fights with fake swords. 512 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 2: To correct me on the. 513 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: Name, that's called Let's hit each other with fake swords. 514 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 2: Yes, so my daughter has become obsessed with this game, 515 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 2: even though we do not own it. I said, okay, Frankie, 516 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: we're going to go to the toy store on the weekend. 517 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 2: We're going to get this game finally. But she's been 518 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 2: talking about it for weeks. So I want to know, like, 519 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: what goes into naming a game. 520 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: Our names come from all over the place, naming is 521 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: very hard, right, Like, not only do you have to 522 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: pick a perfect name that's evocative and relatable, but you 523 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: also have to make sure that somebody else hasn't already 524 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: come up with that name, or that is not the 525 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: name of an app already, or like, there's all these 526 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: things that shoot down name ideas. So what we typically 527 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: do is we spend a long time on names. First, 528 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: we come up with a bunch of names, and then 529 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: we show it to the art team and they usually 530 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: throw all of them away and they come up with 531 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: a brand new set of ideas because they can pair 532 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: it with beautiful, hilarious imagery. And usually we throw some 533 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: of those away and then Matt usually chimes in and 534 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: he says, well, I've got this perfect eddie. Matt is 535 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: the one who came up with let's hit each other 536 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: with fake swords. We were calling it something like had 537 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: the word sword in it, but it was very obscure 538 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: and it was a weird pun and it had something 539 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 1: to do with owls and anyway, it was bizarre and 540 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: strange and didn't come across. But sometimes names come from someone. 541 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: In that case, Matt hadn't actually worked on that game. 542 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: He was just kind of walking through and said, don't 543 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: be coy about this. This game is about sword fighting, 544 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: so let's call it Let's hit each other with fake swords. 545 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: It's long, and it's cumbersome, and it's barely going to 546 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: fit on the box, but it's going to be great 547 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: because as soon as you read that name, you know 548 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: how to play this game. Nothing else is required. So 549 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: these ideas can really come from anywhere. They often do 550 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: come from anywhere. And the only thing I will say 551 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: about naming is we get it wrong about twenty percent 552 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: of the time. We have a few games out there 553 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: that just had bad names and didn't resonate properly, and 554 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: each of those we've learned a lot from. And at 555 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: the very very least, every time we come up with 556 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: a new name that's wrong, it's a brand new mistake. 557 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: We were at least not making the same mistakes over 558 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: and over again. 559 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: Something that I find really interesting around producing creative projects 560 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: is knowing when you're done. And I'm kind of I'm 561 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 2: feeling this at the moment because I'm writing my fifth book. 562 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: The manuscript is due in a week exactly with the publishers, 563 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: and it's kind of that question now that you reach 564 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: where it's like, okay, am I done? Would I even 565 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 2: submit a day early? Am I done? Done? How do 566 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: you know when an idea is done? 567 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: Oh? I feel your pain on such a visceral level. 568 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: I know, I know exactly what you're going through. So 569 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: we have a secret weapon. If it was up to me, 570 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: games would never be done, I would work on them 571 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: forever and I would never release a single thing. And 572 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: investors don't like that very much. So we need a 573 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: different approach. And we have this luxury, which is games 574 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: must be tested. And so we have this group called 575 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: the Kiddy Test Pilots. There's four hundred families that have 576 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: volunteered for this program, and the contract we have with 577 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: them is we're going to send you games for free, 578 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: and you're going to get to see things before anybody 579 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: else in the world, as long as when you play them, 580 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: you're willing to tape that play session and then send 581 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: us the recording. And that's how we learned. That's how 582 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: we learned what worked, what didn't work. We weren't in 583 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: the room to explain the game. Did it still work? 584 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: Were people smiling? Where they exasperated? Where were the problems? 585 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: On and on? And I used to back when I 586 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: iterated games forever. I used to have this long questionnaire 587 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: that I would ask people at the end of that 588 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: and I have them fill out this form. What were 589 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: your favorite parts of the game? What were your least 590 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: favorite parts of the game? Were there are enough components? 591 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: Were there too many cards? Were there too few cards? 592 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: When did you get bored? Which partner was confusing? You 593 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: can imagine this horrible form of like fifty questions and 594 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: most of them have the same answer, and it's just 595 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: dreadful and nobody's going to read it anyway, So why 596 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: am I wasting my time? Now? The form we send 597 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: people is one sentence long, and that single sentence is 598 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: do you want to play again? And I have a 599 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: deal with my team and with my investors that when 600 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of the responses to that question are yes, 601 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: I will stop tinkering with the game. 602 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: Wow. I love that answer, and also I love the 603 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: Kiddy Test Pilot group. Have you got a waiting list? 604 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 2: Where do I sign up? 605 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: We do, We do have a waiting list, but I 606 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: would encourage you to sign up, but I will send 607 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: you the link. Families do drop out from time to time, 608 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: and yeah, we always want to leave it at about 609 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: four hundred because that's about the delivery budget that we 610 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: have to ship these games all over the world. 611 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 2: My final question for people that I mean, I imagine 612 00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: that they are going to be listeners that have played 613 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: Exploiting Kittens. But you've got I think sixty games. Is 614 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 2: that right. 615 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: I've said it was sixty games for the last year, 616 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: and I just checked with our product team. It is 617 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: more than one hundred. I think we're at one hundred 618 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: and three now. 619 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: My gosh. Okay, So the listeners that I have loved 620 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 2: hearing you speak about game design, and I'm like, I 621 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 2: want to play a game. I'm inspired. Where should I start? 622 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 2: What is your advice. 623 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: If you're playing with let's say, like teenagers to adults, 624 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 1: and you're looking for fast, funny, easy cannot be at 625 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: Exploding Kittens. If you are looking for a much more 626 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: casual party game where everyone is just going to yell 627 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: and laugh. We have a game called Poetry for Neanderthals. 628 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: That is, you have to get your teammates to say 629 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: a word that only you can see on this card, 630 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: and you can only speak using single syllable words. That's 631 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: the whole game, and you immediately sound like a caveman. 632 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: You have no choice. This thing make fire me not 633 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: know what else to say. You know, it's just. And 634 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: then if you are looking for even more casual than that, 635 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: the other one I always recommend is our game called 636 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: Happy Salmon, which is ninety seconds long start to finish. 637 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: It is so fun. If you need an ice breaker, 638 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: if you need something just fast and furious, that's the 639 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: best one. And then I'll say, finally, for very young 640 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: kids like ages four and up, we have a game 641 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: out there called Hurry Up Chicken Butt and I designed 642 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: that game with my four year old daughter. She's actually 643 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: the lead designer on that game, and it's one of 644 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: the top selling games in the world right now. So 645 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: it's just incredible. 646 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Alan, I've just loved this chat. I 647 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: also love the research process in the lead up to 648 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: this chat. Thank you so much for all the joy 649 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 2: that you are putting out into the world. It's just 650 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: it's magical. 651 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: It's absolutely my pleasure. I cannot believe I get paid 652 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: to make games for a living. 653 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: If you like this chat with Elin, hop into the 654 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: show notes because there's a link to a bonus episode 655 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 2: I released with him, where we dive into how he's 656 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: using AI to creativity. If you like today's Joe, make 657 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 2: sure you git follow on your podcast app to be 658 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded 659 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 2: on 660 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 3: The traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the 661 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 3: Cooler Nation