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Speaker 1: Doctor Wayne Warburton is a professor of developmental psychology at

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Speaker 1: mcquarie University and he's also a registered psychologist. His research

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Speaker 1: centers on issues related to media use, aggression and behavioral

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Speaker 1: addictions like screen disorders. He's the co author of the

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Speaker 1: books Growing Up, Fast and Furious and the Importance of

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Speaker 1: Media Literacy, and of several statements by international panels of

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Speaker 1: experts on topics around media impacts on young people. Wayne's

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Speaker 1: done some great work with some commercial TV stations including

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Speaker 1: Channel seven, as well as having a really touching Australian

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Speaker 1: story on the ABC that followed two great teenage boys

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Speaker 1: who are struggling with screen disorder as he worked on

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Speaker 1: them with an intervention program. And today on the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast, we talk about his research and the ways

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Speaker 1: that what he's discovered through empirical data collection can help

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Speaker 1: us to make our families do better around this endemic

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Speaker 1: and never endingly challenging screen issue. Stay with us. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Real Parenting Solutions

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Speaker 1: every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name's

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Speaker 1: doctor Justin Colson and Way and it's such a delight

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Speaker 1: to have you on the podcast. I've wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: to you here for such a long time and we

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Speaker 1: finally made it happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, it's wonderful to be here justin thanks for

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Speaker 2: the chat. And this is something that's of great interest

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Speaker 2: to so many Australian families. You know, when I go

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Speaker 2: to school, so many parents come up and say, this

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Speaker 2: is like the big issue at our house.

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Speaker 1: As parents, we know that this stuff's bad for our kids,

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Speaker 1: but it's so hard to effectively navigate it and have

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Speaker 1: the conversations. So my question is really vague and nebulous.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm just generally asking why is this so hard?

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Speaker 1: It's hard like no other thing that parents have ever

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Speaker 1: encountered seems to be.

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Speaker 2: I think it's hard because the products that we use

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Speaker 2: are designed to be addictive. And I don't mean that

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Speaker 2: in this kind of handwaving way. The people who make

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Speaker 2: them they use neuroscience and they design their products so

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Speaker 2: that they engage the brain in a way that you

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Speaker 2: see it engage in other sorts of addictions. And when

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Speaker 2: you see the changes of the brain, they're the same

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Speaker 2: as the ones you see with drug addiction and other

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Speaker 2: types of addiction. That's why they make the products, and

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Speaker 2: just to make it even more difficult. Once they build

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Speaker 2: in all of these things that kind of keep the

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Speaker 2: brain's reward system going and disable the sort of natural

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Speaker 2: breaks on behavior in the brain, and building all the

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Speaker 2: things we know from gambling and neuroscience. They then have

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Speaker 2: an AI that monitors every user in real time and

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Speaker 2: use as the information that they get from that device

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Speaker 2: to decide what you're going to see. If that AI

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Speaker 2: thinks your attention is waning, then they're going to give

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Speaker 2: you a pop up, a banner or something on the

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Speaker 2: game that's going to be irresistible to you that just

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Speaker 2: keeps you at the screen because they work on what's

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Speaker 2: called the attention economy, which is monetizing your attention, and

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Speaker 2: it is not a good business model if people don't

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of time at the screen. The business

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Speaker 2: model only works if they have you at the screen

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Speaker 2: for long periods of time, and the best way to

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Speaker 2: do that and to stay competitive is to use addictive technology.

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Speaker 2: So it's not the fall of kids, it's not the

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Speaker 2: fault of parents, you know. This is just stuff that's

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Speaker 2: designed to be addictive, and that's what makes it so hard.

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Speaker 2: For all of us to leave it aside.

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Speaker 1: What happens when the pin goes off, or when the

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Speaker 1: phone rings, or when you're scrolling through that Instagram or

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Speaker 1: TikTok feed and you see something that kicks off the

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Speaker 1: cascade of neurotransmitters that pull you in.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to do this on two levels and

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Speaker 2: try not to confuse everybody. On one level, you know,

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Speaker 2: your brain is wide up to capture particular sounds and

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Speaker 2: colors and things like that. And so if something that

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Speaker 2: we're hardwired to get our attention gets our attention, then

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Speaker 2: sorts of brains are registered site and the sound kind

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Speaker 2: of pull us in. But at another level, it's also

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Speaker 2: linked to a reward because you hear that sound and

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Speaker 2: you know, oh, this could mean I'm getting another like

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Speaker 2: this could mean that there's another upgrade for my game.

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Speaker 2: This means something else cool it's happening, So I better

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Speaker 2: attend to my phone and get that reward. And I

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Speaker 2: think one of the key things about the sorts of

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Speaker 2: screen products that we use is that they engage a

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Speaker 2: part of the brain called the limbic system, where we

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Speaker 2: know we process rewards and we feel things, and you know,

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Speaker 2: we have parts of the fight or flight system, and

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Speaker 2: everything that happens is kind of automatic. We don't have

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Speaker 2: any control over it. And that's the part of the brain.

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Speaker 2: It's mostly active. When you're reeling through those tick cock

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Speaker 2: clips or playing a very repetitive game, or doing a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of other things. There's not much going on

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Speaker 2: in terms of heavy thinking and being in conscious control

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Speaker 2: of your life. And when you look at the part

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Speaker 2: of your brain where you have attension of focus, where

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Speaker 2: you manage your behavior, where you're and as your emotions,

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Speaker 2: where you plan for the future sol of complex problems,

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Speaker 2: that's at the front of the brain, and a part

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Speaker 2: of the brain called the prefrontal cortex. That part of

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Speaker 2: the brain is mostly turned off because you're not really

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Speaker 2: doing any heavy lifting for any of that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: The device is your memory. The device is providing all

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Speaker 2: of the stimulation. You don't have to do any of

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Speaker 2: the hard work. It's doing it for you. And so

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Speaker 2: in the moment, what that means is that you can't

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Speaker 2: have less access to those higher functions, which is why

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Speaker 2: we see those kind of meltdowns when you take the

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Speaker 2: screen away, or there's difficulty managing emotions when the person's

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Speaker 2: on the screen, because that part of the brain is

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Speaker 2: not as active. In the long term, the brainers use

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Speaker 2: it or lose it organ and when a part of

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Speaker 2: the brain isn't being used, it just starts to lose

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Speaker 2: structure and function. And that's what we see in kids

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Speaker 2: who are addicted to screens compared to other kids. They

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Speaker 2: have a loss of gray matter, they have a loss

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Speaker 2: of particularly in that prefrontal cortex where you have those

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Speaker 2: high functions. You see a change in the density of

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Speaker 2: the cortex. You see a lot of white matter instability,

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Speaker 2: which probably means nothing to anyone who's listening, but it's

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Speaker 2: not a good thing. And it means the brain is

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Speaker 2: not working particularly efficiently, and it's not connected particularly well.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's starting to lose function. And because of

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Speaker 2: those things, you know, the kids that I see her

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Speaker 2: have a screen addiction. They have trouble managing their emotions,

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Speaker 2: increasing trouble, increasing trouble managing their behavior, increasing problems with

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Speaker 2: attention and focus. You know, they're working memory and processing

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Speaker 2: speed isn't as good. They have more trouble planning for

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Speaker 2: the future, thinking through the consequences, managing their time. All

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Speaker 2: those kinds of higher functions because on age, the brain

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Speaker 2: not doing that stuff when you're in front of the screen.

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Speaker 2: But the more they do it, the more they lose

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Speaker 2: that capacity to do it. Of course, it's reversible, right,

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Speaker 2: you start to use that part of the brain again,

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Speaker 2: it starts to grow again. So it's not like the

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Speaker 2: end of the universe, particularly if you're young. But it

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Speaker 2: kind of explains some of the problems that parents have

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Speaker 2: in the home. When you take the screen away, you

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Speaker 2: you try to communicate, or when screen starts to become

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Speaker 2: a big problem in the house, you know, it's very

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Speaker 2: difficult to cut through, right, because all of those things

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Speaker 2: that require that kind of rational conversation they're kind of

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Speaker 2: out the window because that rational part of the brain,

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Speaker 2: that's the one that's suffering.

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Speaker 1: All right, So let's say I'm a parent who doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a PhD in psychology. I'm not sitting down and

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Speaker 1: dealing with screen addiction on a daily basis and guiding

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Speaker 1: people through it. If I'm a regular mum or dad

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Speaker 1: and my child's screen use is concerning me, how do

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Speaker 1: I explain to them the things that you've just talked

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Speaker 1: about in a way that gets through to them. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how do you convince a thirteen year old, or a

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Speaker 1: seventeen year old, or frankly, a twenty three year old

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Speaker 1: that their screen use is concerning, that it's problematic, that

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Speaker 1: it's compulsive, that's leading to negative outcomes, and it's because

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Speaker 1: their brain been rewired and hijacked by these multi billion,

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Speaker 1: multi trillion dollar behemits that have hijacked neuroscience to their

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Speaker 1: own selfish and mendacious ends.

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Speaker 2: Well, I love the way you said that, justin Sorry,

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Speaker 2: I'm just fangirling right now. That's beautifully put. The first

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Speaker 2: thing I'd say is that you don't have the conversation

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Speaker 2: when they're kind of in screen world. Of course, you write,

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Speaker 2: what can they get off the screen? We need to

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Speaker 2: talk when you're off the screen. It takes a while

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Speaker 2: your brain to kind of return to normal. So what

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Speaker 2: you want to do is to have it, you know,

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Speaker 2: sometime later when everybody is calm and when you're able

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Speaker 2: to kind of have that rational conversation. And the thing

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Speaker 2: that I think is most helpful is that you externalize

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Speaker 2: the problem. And by that I mean the problem is

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Speaker 2: the screen and the people who make it. It's not

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Speaker 2: that you're a bad kid, it's not that this is

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Speaker 2: you behaving in a difficult way. It's because you know,

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Speaker 2: the screen has become a problem because of the way

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Speaker 2: people design it. And I think if you come from

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Speaker 2: that position, it's much easier to have that conversation with

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Speaker 2: saying what can we do? You know, you and us

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Speaker 2: against these makers of the screens, manufacturers of the screen,

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Speaker 2: so that we're kind of resisting what it's trying to

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Speaker 2: do to you and so many other millions of kids

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Speaker 2: around the world. You know, what can we do to

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Speaker 2: be the strong ones who put you back in control

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Speaker 2: so that you're the one who's calling your shots in

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Speaker 2: your life and not the screen. Because in the end,

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Speaker 2: my program is about the parenting is about it's about

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Speaker 2: putting you back in the driver's seat. I would say

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Speaker 2: one other thing, I have never seen a kid with

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Speaker 2: a screen addiction who when I ask them what is

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Speaker 2: happening in your brain at the time you go to

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Speaker 2: the screen, I've never heard a different answer that I'm

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Speaker 2: feeling anxious, I'm feeling stressed, or I've got a negative

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Speaker 2: emotion like I'm feeling sad or bored or angry, And

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Speaker 2: when I go to the screen, it always makes me

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Speaker 2: feel better. It's my go to thing. And I think

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Speaker 2: part of the conversation has to be, what's another way

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Speaker 2: that doesn't involve a screen that kind of helps you

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Speaker 2: when you're feeling anxious, when you're feeling stressed, when you're

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Speaker 2: feeling those negative emotions. What are other ways that we

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Speaker 2: can manage this so that the screen's not the go

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Speaker 2: to thing. I think that's really helpful and anything a

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Speaker 2: parent can do to be using that front part of

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Speaker 2: the brain, because if you're doing those opposite things like attending, focusing,

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Speaker 2: having abstract conversations, talking to people you know in the

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Speaker 2: offline world, if you are doing things that encourage mindfulness,

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Speaker 2: if you're doing complex problem solving, all of those things

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Speaker 2: are engaged in that front brain. And when you're engaging

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Speaker 2: that front brain, really your conscious self is in control

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Speaker 2: of your life. It's you who's driving the bus. So

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Speaker 2: that's what we're trying to do. We want to say,

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Speaker 2: let's get the screen into the passenger seat and let's

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Speaker 2: get you back into the driver's seat.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about an issue that's been

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Speaker 1: occurring in my family around this ongoing screen issue, and

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Speaker 1: that is that my daughter says this is how I

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Speaker 1: communicate with my friends, and by reducing or removing screens,

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Speaker 1: or specifically by removing the social media platforms that are used,

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Speaker 1: they don't text. Texting is inconvenient, it doesn't work for them,

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Speaker 1: it's not consistent with how they want to communicate, and

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Speaker 1: so by removing them from social media platforms, we actually

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Speaker 1: in some ways sabotage their relationships and leave them feeling isolated.

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Speaker 1: How do you respond to that?

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Speaker 2: I think that's a crocload. Do you know why? Because

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Speaker 2: we have so many ways to communicate the problem with

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Speaker 2: social media. I mean, there are a lot of problems

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Speaker 2: with social media. It's an addictive technology, is one. So

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Speaker 2: we have probably six six to nine percent of people

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Speaker 2: have a problem with how much they're on it. There

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Speaker 2: are problems with social comparison, there's problems with mental health,

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Speaker 2: and the list is very long. Okay, so there are problems,

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Speaker 2: but we have all of these alternatives. I mean that

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Speaker 2: we don't have the same problems, for example, just video chatting,

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Speaker 2: face timing, doing all of these other things. There are

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Speaker 2: so many other ways to communicate. I think as time

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Speaker 2: goes on, the evidence that screens can cause difficulties becomes

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Speaker 2: more compelling, and the idea that we should protect younger

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Speaker 2: brains from them until to a higher age becomes more

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Speaker 2: convincing to me as time goes on. I don't think

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Speaker 2: I would have said that five years ago because the

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Speaker 2: evidence was still coming in. But now the evidence is

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Speaker 2: kind of in and it's pretty strong.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was ahead of the curve on this one,

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Speaker 1: and I knew that I was doing it without the evidence.

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Speaker 1: I knew that it was sort of the eighteen month

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Speaker 1: to two year thing. But I've been saying for as

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Speaker 1: long as I can remember three three at the earliest,

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Speaker 1: like just minimize or delete screens from kids' lives from

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Speaker 1: at least the age of three. They just don't need them.

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Speaker 1: All right, Our time's all but up, and this has

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Speaker 1: gone way too fast, and I feel like we should

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Speaker 1: go into partnership and do a podcast every week because

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Speaker 1: I love this discussion so very much. You're on the

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Speaker 1: recorders saying that you're pretty big on family media plans.

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Speaker 1: You want, you want families to do that, but everyone

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Speaker 1: needs to be able to work together on this. I've

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Speaker 1: never seen family media plans work. It's not that I'm

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Speaker 1: against the concept. I just think that it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where even if you agree on a family

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Speaker 1: media plan, I reckon within two weeks you're going to

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Speaker 1: be yelling at each other again because the family media

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Speaker 1: plan isn't being followed. What do you do around family

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Speaker 1: media plans that makes it work?

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Speaker 2: The most important thing is that your child has a

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Speaker 2: sense of agency, so they're part of the process of

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Speaker 2: putting you to a plan that they think is fair.

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Speaker 1: So if they just don't think that you're right, which

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Speaker 1: is the case for so many families that because you're

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Speaker 1: just like no, you.

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Speaker 2: Can't reach an agreement, then the plan's never going to

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Speaker 2: work right right, You need to reach an agreement where

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Speaker 2: everybody is on the same piece of paper. Often writing

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Speaker 2: it down on a piece of paper is helpful, but

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Speaker 2: in it you need to have the kind of the

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Speaker 2: expectations and the things that are going to be the

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Speaker 2: consequences of things. And it might be I'm really happy

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Speaker 2: for you don't have an hour and a half on screens,

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Speaker 2: you know, provided you've done your homework in your chores,

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Speaker 2: for example. But if that doesn't happen, then the consequence

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Speaker 2: will be that we're going to turn the internet off

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Speaker 2: in the house for twenty four hours and you control

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Speaker 2: the modem from your wife, you know, the Wi Fi

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Speaker 2: from modem from your phone, for example. And I think

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Speaker 2: that those plans have a lot better chance of success

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Speaker 2: because you've all agreed on this. This is what we've

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Speaker 2: agreed to do, and this is the agreed consequence. And

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Speaker 2: it's not a massive consequence. It's not like I'm taking

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Speaker 2: your phone away forever. It's just we're turning the Internet

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Speaker 2: off for a day. Typically, those plans work a whole

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Speaker 2: lot better.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Professor Wayne Warburton, Professor of Developmental Psychology

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Speaker 1: at mcquarie University, registered psychologist, a researcher who focuses on

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Speaker 1: media use, aggression and behavioral addictions like screen disorders. We

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Speaker 1: could have talked for days. There's so many questions we

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Speaker 1: didn't have time for. We'll definitely do this again and

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Speaker 1: get Wayne back. What a great conversation. The Happy Family's

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Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. More

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Speaker 1: information and resources to make your family happier are avail

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Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot ummm

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Speaker 2: Hmm