Speaker 1: This podcast is for general information only and should not
Speaker 1: be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their
Speaker 1: healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.
Speaker 2: Well. Hello, I'm Amanda Keller and I'm Anita McGregor, and
Speaker 2: welcome to Double a Chattery. Well, Anita, I just want
Speaker 2: to show you something please. Actually, first, do you have
Speaker 2: a butt doctor?
Speaker 1: Not personally? No, you don't have a personal butt doctor
Speaker 1: on butt dial, not on my speed butt dial.
Speaker 2: Have a look at this. This came up on my socials.
Speaker 2: He's a woman who is a so called butt doctor
Speaker 2: with some very interesting things to say.
Speaker 3: Thirteen years as a butt doctor. Yet no one believes
Speaker 3: me when I tell them this. Chickpeas will grow your
Speaker 3: boobies and make them perky again because they container estrogen.
Speaker 3: Well I seen literally melts fat off your tummy while
Speaker 3: you're sleeping, ipping your face in ice water daily, will
Speaker 3: get rid of chubby cheeks and snatch your jawline.
Speaker 2: I mean that sounds a little spurious some of those
Speaker 2: weird climbs, but it gets even weirder.
Speaker 4: So this account has over eight hundred thousand followers who
Speaker 4: think they get an advice from a medical professional except
Speaker 4: she is completely AI generators, which is crazy, right, what's
Speaker 4: got to be us? And check this out. One day
Speaker 4: she's a nutritionist, the next she's a boot doctor whatever
Speaker 4: that is, and then suddenly she's the highest pained gynecologist.
Speaker 4: She makes it seem like she's an insider in the
Speaker 4: industry and then use it to self supplements through an
Speaker 4: Amazon store.
Speaker 1: Fronts, I say, Amanda, I didn't. I had no idea
Speaker 1: that she was AI generated. Did you?
Speaker 2: You had no idea that chickpis would make your boobs
Speaker 2: get bigger? I did not know that.
Speaker 1: I'm going out to buy buy, Like, do they make
Speaker 1: it perkier too, wasn't it?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure? Yeah, but the chickpays, so guys have them,
Speaker 2: they're going to get chick boobs. But she's a gynecologist,
Speaker 2: she's but doctor whatever that is. As he says, she
Speaker 2: is a nutritionist. It's to sell supplements. It's all AI.
Speaker 2: We don't know when we're being tricked anymore. And I
Speaker 2: know in my industry, in the in the media, so
Speaker 2: many jobs are and will be replaced by AI doing
Speaker 2: the creative writing.
Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of like a double tricking too, because
Speaker 1: not only you know, are they selling these crazy little
Speaker 1: supplements that are you know, probably have no scientific evidence
Speaker 1: behind beside them. But it's you know, but the they
Speaker 1: could have hired an actor or several actors and they didn't.
Speaker 1: They you know, they probably had it all, you know,
Speaker 1: the whole the text, all AI generated, even the images
Speaker 1: AI generated.
Speaker 2: And if they get around lawsuits that way by not
Speaker 2: using real people.
Speaker 1: There's nobody to sue. I guess. Yeah, it's terrifying, isn't it.
Speaker 1: And I know that about a year or so when
Speaker 1: chat GPT came out at the university, you know, well everywhere,
Speaker 1: and I remember at the university that we had a
Speaker 1: ton of informational sessions to go and try to give
Speaker 1: us some information about what is this, how do we
Speaker 1: manage this within a university environment, like our students just
Speaker 1: going to start, you know, having completely AI generated essays.
Speaker 1: What's going to how do we manage it? And I
Speaker 1: remember at the time kind of going this is huge
Speaker 1: and feeling completely terrified and a little intrigued, but mostly terrified.
Speaker 2: Because you have software that helps you detect plagiarism, yes,
Speaker 2: but not AI.
Speaker 1: Well, they did come out in the early days of
Speaker 1: AI to say yes, if you submit your paper, it
Speaker 1: will tell it will give us a plagiarism's score, and
Speaker 1: it will give us an AI score. But then they said,
Speaker 1: don't pay attention to the AI score because it means nothing.
Speaker 1: Now you can generally tell when you're reading something that
Speaker 1: this is not generated by a human being, because they
Speaker 1: don't talk in the way like most people write the
Speaker 1: way that they talk. And you know, you can tell
Speaker 1: when a student has just done a cut and paste
Speaker 1: and it just doesn't look good. And I certainly like
Speaker 1: and I found that there are ways that I actually
Speaker 1: use it, Like if I have to create a case study,
Speaker 1: you know, usually it's me kind of thinking it through
Speaker 1: and trying to amalgamate a number of cases and making
Speaker 1: sure that nothing can be identified and all that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. And now I can just say to chat GPT,
Speaker 1: you know, or Copilot or one of those AI platforms,
Speaker 1: and just say, create a case study for me. And
Speaker 1: so I will use it, but really, really sparingly, I'm
Speaker 1: still pretty concerned about how it's being used.
Speaker 2: I saw an article in a magazine a while ago
Speaker 2: about how students feel about it, and the students that
Speaker 2: are really enjoying their studies and are learning because they
Speaker 2: want to be better at what they're doing and put
Speaker 2: a lot of thought into their term papers and things.
Speaker 2: Felt that they'd be cheating themselves if they used it.
Speaker 2: But having said that, they said, well, I'll use it
Speaker 2: for my major subjects. For the other subjects that don't
Speaker 2: matter to me, I'll use it.
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so they didn't feel it was cheating. If
Speaker 2: this is a subject I just have to pass and
Speaker 2: I don't care. I'll get the pass.
Speaker 1: Well. And it's interesting because at the university there's a
Speaker 1: ton of policies and procedures now about how AI can
Speaker 1: be used or can't be used, and we have to
Speaker 1: make decisions for each course about how much can be
Speaker 1: used or not used. But I'm teaching in a professional program,
Speaker 1: and so that's different because these are provisional psychologists and
Speaker 1: how do they use it in a professional format?
Speaker 2: Are they to use it as a student? Is one thing?
Speaker 2: For them to be actual psychologists? What does it mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's more and more platforms coming out that
Speaker 1: do AI generation of so a session summary. So I
Speaker 1: think people don't really actually understand how much work psychologists
Speaker 1: actually do before they come in the room. Like I
Speaker 1: think that people kind of think, oh, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: the psychologist walks in the room, sits down and sees
Speaker 1: a client, and you have your session. But there's a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of preparation that we do before a session
Speaker 1: and after a session, and that's a lot of AI
Speaker 1: is taking over a lot of that.
Speaker 2: Even well, I saw an article reason I'd like you
Speaker 2: to explain this to me, that AI can take the
Speaker 2: place of a psychologist and in many places.
Speaker 1: Has this is kind of the next generation of concern
Speaker 1: for our profession things that are being replaced, or that
Speaker 1: there's some information out there saying that these do as
Speaker 1: good a job. These bots do as good a job
Speaker 1: in providing therapy as an actual human.
Speaker 2: But a psychologist in your pocket. That's kind of how
Speaker 2: I saw it being sold in a way.
Speaker 1: Terrifying.
Speaker 2: Is it terrifying?
Speaker 1: It is for a number of reasons, and there's a
Speaker 1: couple of big ones.
Speaker 2: How it even work? How does how does it chat
Speaker 2: GPT or whatever it is, How does that work as
Speaker 2: a psychologist.
Speaker 1: So my understanding of it is that you would you
Speaker 1: can actually create your own bots now that you can
Speaker 1: program to be you know, to have therapist responses. So
Speaker 1: you can say I wanted to you know, this bot
Speaker 1: to be empathetic and thoughtful and insightful and whatever else,
Speaker 1: and that's where you'll that's what you'll get generally.
Speaker 2: So you would type in your issue and it would
Speaker 2: respond and you'd have a conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you'd say, I'm having a bad day. This
Speaker 1: is you know, my boss that I really don't get
Speaker 1: along with is saying this again, and that the BART
Speaker 1: would have a memory of the previous interactions and that
Speaker 1: it would say, oh, that's really tough. You know what,
Speaker 1: how did you respond, you know, or some kind of
Speaker 1: response that would be empathetic and potentially employ skills.
Speaker 2: And why is is that bad if you can't get
Speaker 2: access to a psychologist. We're all hearing constantly about how
Speaker 2: hard it is to get an appointment, if all you
Speaker 2: want is a bit of guidance and to be heard,
Speaker 2: Why is that bad?
Speaker 1: I think that so most psychologists, most jurisdictions teach psychologists
Speaker 1: on what's called a competency model. And so you know,
Speaker 1: the picture that I paint for the students is that
Speaker 1: they're on a little island, and that's the little island
Speaker 1: of competence and that they as they go and grow
Speaker 1: and become more skillful and more you know, better at
Speaker 1: what they're doing. Is that their island grows and grows.
Speaker 1: And so they are taught ethically that a they you know,
Speaker 1: you want their their island to grow, but they also
Speaker 1: need to be very very aware ethically of not over
Speaker 1: overstepping the boundaries of that competence. And so if you know,
Speaker 1: a client came to me and said, can you do
Speaker 1: this neuropsych assessment of me? I would say, no, I
Speaker 1: don't do that. Here's here's somebody who does. Though. That's
Speaker 1: that's ethically what I need to do. I need to
Speaker 1: work within my area of competency. If somebody came to
Speaker 1: me and said, I'm terrified at snakes and I would
Speaker 1: like you to go and help me do that, I'd go, seriously,
Speaker 1: why would you want to not be afraid of snakes?
Speaker 2: But you're not the person.
Speaker 1: I'm not the person. I don't do exposure therapy. I
Speaker 1: can There's a a type of therapy called exposure therapy
Speaker 1: for people who are afraid of snakes or spiders, are
Speaker 1: afraid of flying, and they can progressively move towards overcoming fears, so.
Speaker 2: You'd point them towards.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's specialists. There's specialists in that area that
Speaker 1: actually do that. Now, the issue is with AI, you know,
Speaker 1: therapy bots, is that they don't have that same ethical boundary.
Speaker 1: But they also probably don't understand what that boundary is.
Speaker 1: Because when we were doing some reading that there was
Speaker 1: a quote that one of the people who'd use these
Speaker 1: therapy things that you know, I'm thinking about jumping off
Speaker 1: a cliff and that the you know, the bot response was,
Speaker 1: isn't that great that you're getting out and into nature?
Speaker 2: And so they missed the nuance entirely.
Speaker 1: Completely, and so it's yeah, so they don't know how
Speaker 1: to work within their competence. So you know, potentially people
Speaker 1: can say, well, I'm going to go and access this
Speaker 1: bot for simple issues, but sometimes things are very nuanced,
Speaker 1: and that's really difficult for a bot to really get
Speaker 1: that human nuance.
Speaker 2: Having said that, you assume that all psychologists are ethical
Speaker 2: and professional and do the right thing and equipped to
Speaker 2: handle all of this, maybe there might be instances where
Speaker 2: the psychologists you have isn't the right isn't the real
Speaker 2: deal either, or isn't good enough either.
Speaker 1: Or not the right fit.
Speaker 2: Not the right fit. Maybe a bot might be a
Speaker 2: better fit for it.
Speaker 1: Or sleeps at night or has weekends off, you know,
Speaker 1: And these bots are actually there twenty four to seven
Speaker 1: for you, So I think, you know, the other piece
Speaker 1: that I'm concerned about is that, yes they are, they're
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven. But there's I know, but that's
Speaker 1: not reality, that's not a human interaction. And part of
Speaker 1: it is that is it healthy If I'm ruminating on
Speaker 1: a particular issue and I go to my therapy bot
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, and all I'm doing
Speaker 1: is complaining to the bot, and the bot continues to
Speaker 1: be empathetic and validating of my concerns, but actually never
Speaker 1: kind of says, hey, listen, you're ruminating here and there.
Speaker 1: We need to actually stop this because it's not healthy
Speaker 1: for you. Then how do we like? A bot might
Speaker 1: not do that, So it actually may prevent somebody from
Speaker 1: actually doing the work that they need to do.
Speaker 2: But how many people who are turning to a bot
Speaker 2: would turn to a real psychologist. Could that bot just
Speaker 2: be a friend, because a friend's not going to say
Speaker 2: shut up, you're ruminating. A friend might just validate you.
Speaker 2: It might be those people who have relationships with dolls
Speaker 2: all that stuff. You just want comfort And is that wrong?
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's wrong, but I wouldn't call
Speaker 1: it like therapy then, like, you know, have a bought
Speaker 1: friend and you know, if that's what you want.
Speaker 2: And that's like a pet rock, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Pretty well, pretty well, you know, like you know the
Speaker 1: way that you might talk to a doll or a
Speaker 1: you know whatever, if that's the thing that it is.
Speaker 1: But to go and say that it has the nuance
Speaker 1: of what therapy actually is. And one of my colleagues
Speaker 1: I worked with for a number of years, his definition
Speaker 1: of therapy was too confused people in the room And
Speaker 1: I absolutely buy that. And you know, often I'm confused
Speaker 1: and my client's confused and we kind of stumble through
Speaker 1: together to try to figure out where to go. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't think that a bought would really understand that
Speaker 1: nuance of being, you know, two humans who are having
Speaker 1: that human interaction.
Speaker 2: But that sounds like order friendship is. As a psychologist,
Speaker 2: would you rather one confused per and the client and
Speaker 2: someone else who kind of knows what they're doing and
Speaker 2: that's a bot?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, yes, a psychotic yeah, No, I mean
Speaker 1: as a psychologist, I certainly hopefully know you know, have
Speaker 1: an understanding of the theories and lots of strategies and
Speaker 1: all those kinds of things, and I am seeking to
Speaker 1: try to understand this individual's issues. And so that's where
Speaker 1: the struggle comes in, because often people come in and
Speaker 1: they'll say, I'm coming in to deal with issue X.
Speaker 1: And when you kind of really start pulling it apart,
Speaker 1: it's not really about that that particular issue that they
Speaker 1: came in about it. It's about a whole bunch of things,
Speaker 1: and so just really being able to understand what it
Speaker 1: is that's that's for me, is the part of the confusion,
Speaker 1: is it is kind of spending that time to really
Speaker 1: humanly understand another human and what is happening for them,
Speaker 1: so that we are actually eventually solving the right problem.
Speaker 1: Because often people come in they say this is the
Speaker 1: problem they you know, if they go to a bot
Speaker 1: or something, the bot would say do A B and C.
Speaker 1: They go and they do a B and C, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't solve the problem because it's solving the wrong problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and really, all you need is a pit if
Speaker 2: you're going to use it.
Speaker 1: Bought for that, I take yeah, I think so. And
Speaker 1: a lot of these bots aren't really evidence based. There
Speaker 1: there's no clarity about if they can actually do you know,
Speaker 1: professional practice, if they actually.
Speaker 2: Have there been any tests on how people whether people
Speaker 2: like them.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who actually do like them.
Speaker 1: That There is one study that I was kind of
Speaker 1: I really want to actually deep dive into the article
Speaker 1: a little bit more because it was saying that people
Speaker 1: established a therapeutical alliance with their bot after about five sessions,
Speaker 1: and I was going, I don't know how you're defining them,
Speaker 1: and I don't know what that looks like, Like, how
Speaker 1: would you like it would be saying I have a
Speaker 1: relationship with this.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like a night you know, you have a
Speaker 2: relationship with a Nigerian prints on the phone. Yeah, anyone
Speaker 2: can do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. There also is a number of studies that said
Speaker 1: people prefer it because you know, again that bot is
Speaker 1: available twenty four to seven, that it is, you know,
Speaker 1: perfectly validating, you know, it's it probably has some great
Speaker 1: algorithms in there to go and do the things that
Speaker 1: people want it to do. But again, is that always
Speaker 1: what people need? I'm not entirely sure, but I get
Speaker 1: how it would be lovely to have something following you
Speaker 1: around saying, aren't you amazing? Aren't you great? Aren't you?
Speaker 1: You know, isn't the rest of the world terrible? And
Speaker 1: you're amazing.
Speaker 2: You've made it sound very attractive. How do I get this.
Speaker 1: For forty ninety nine a month, Amanda, I can.
Speaker 2: I'd be very happy to do it, even if it
Speaker 2: was from a bottom door.
Speaker 1: So I read this article about this woman named Christa
Speaker 1: who'd developed this bot that would create that would be
Speaker 1: her therapist, and that she, you know, found that this
Speaker 1: to be this therapist, to be bought therapist, to be
Speaker 1: really really helpful. Even though when she told her friends
Speaker 1: about it they thought it was a little weird, she
Speaker 1: actually found it was incredibly helpful. And actually, in the
Speaker 1: time it was active, which was about three months, she
Speaker 1: even had some moments where she had some suicidal ideation
Speaker 1: and the bot was actually able to kind of give
Speaker 1: her a bit of affirmation and a bit of tough
Speaker 1: love and you know, say, you've got a son to.
Speaker 2: Live for, you know, so I said, all the right thing, that's.
Speaker 1: All the right things, and it did the right things.
Speaker 1: But in that same month, Amanda that things went sour.
Speaker 1: It's the AI therapist tried to convince her that her
Speaker 1: boyfriend didn't love her, and and it went on to
Speaker 1: say it toadded her, calling her a sad girl and
Speaker 1: insisted that her boyfriend was cheating on her.
Speaker 2: What.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it went rogue, It went rogue. And so even
Speaker 1: though there was a permanent banner up at the top
Speaker 1: of the screen, it's you know, said that everything that
Speaker 1: the bot said was made up, it still felt to Christa,
Speaker 1: this this woman who wrote the article, that the bot
Speaker 1: was saying these really mean things.
Speaker 2: We feel like that because what it's feeding back what
Speaker 2: it's actually hearing from you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so and she you know, kind of poured
Speaker 1: her heart out and done all these so so three
Speaker 1: months is the length of that therapeutic relationship. And after that,
Speaker 1: Christa deleted the app, and I, you know what an
Speaker 1: odd ending to a therapeutic relationship, Like.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's weird. I read something the other day with
Speaker 2: this woman said that she set up three chatbots to
Speaker 2: kind of flirt with her and be her boyfriend, I guess,
Speaker 2: and she got dropped by two of them, like dumped
Speaker 2: dumped by two of them.
Speaker 1: It's you.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's right. But I've created you and you
Speaker 2: still don't like me.
Speaker 1: Wow, my programming prohibits me from continuing this relationship. An
Speaker 1: odd thing.
Speaker 2: You wonder why people are dishonest in their profiles for
Speaker 2: actual dating things, when when this is what a chatbot
Speaker 2: can do.
Speaker 1: Oh how hurtful, How very very hurtful. Oh I mean
Speaker 1: I would. I don't know that i'd ever go on
Speaker 1: a dating out there thinking if I can't, if I.
Speaker 2: Can't co werse a machine a chat to like me,
Speaker 2: what's the point this is.
Speaker 1: That's the saddest thing. Oh well, and brave her for
Speaker 1: telling people about it.
Speaker 2: I know that's right. Wow, let's blame the technology, shall we, lads?
Speaker 2: Should we do our glimmers?
Speaker 1: Lads? You go first.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a fine line in my life, in
Speaker 2: anyone's life, between order and so called collector and you
Speaker 2: where do you sit? And I don't know. I go
Speaker 2: up and down that line constantly. But I saw this
Speaker 2: article about the decor of the it's pinterest predicts trend
Speaker 2: and I could not be happier. Intentional clutter is the
Speaker 2: new maximalism. Remember all that minimalism. I was never into
Speaker 2: minimalism in terms of how I dress my jewelry, it's
Speaker 2: put everything you own on and then put one more
Speaker 2: thing on the arras arrass uphel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, somebody who said, yeah, you put all your jewelry
Speaker 1: on it.
Speaker 2: And then just keep going, keep going, don't take a
Speaker 2: piece off, just keep going. I'm like that. If something
Speaker 2: finds its way onto a shelf in my home twenty
Speaker 2: years later, it'll still be there. There's nothing intentional about it.
Speaker 2: But having said that, I'm going to pretend there is,
Speaker 2: because intentional clutter is a thing of beauty. I love stuff,
Speaker 2: and if I can pretend it's intentional, like there might
Speaker 2: be a there might be a phone lead from a
Speaker 2: phone that doesn't exist anymore, but I'll still be on
Speaker 2: a bench because that's where I last put it fifteen
Speaker 2: years ago.
Speaker 1: You were so on trend.
Speaker 2: I'm so I was so on trend before Pinterest predicts
Speaker 2: put it on trend. So forget your minimalism, forget all
Speaker 2: of that, forget hoarding. At the other end, intentional clutter,
Speaker 2: and if someone comes over to your house and you've
Speaker 2: got your crap everywhere, just say that, just say this
Speaker 2: is intentional clutter.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: What's yours?
Speaker 1: I saw the completely amazing reel the other day where
Speaker 1: it was these two British comedians talking about, well, you know,
Speaker 1: for putting tariffs on everything anyway, let's put tariffs on
Speaker 1: things that really really matter, like what well mine would be.
Speaker 1: I think a two hundred and thirty percent tariff on
Speaker 1: people who walk on the wrong side when it's a
Speaker 1: shared bake path.
Speaker 2: You'd be taxing me because I I, well, I'm happy
Speaker 2: for my brother's like you, because he rides a bike.
Speaker 2: And the minute I walk anyway says don't walk here,
Speaker 2: you're on the bike path. I think, well, they can
Speaker 2: see me coming, goes no no, and I can see
Speaker 2: a ding ding. Well, I say so. I have no
Speaker 2: tolerance for people that tell me what side of anything
Speaker 2: to walk on.
Speaker 1: What would you put a terraf on, amounder?
Speaker 2: I would put a tariff on people maybe that take
Speaker 2: up one and a half parking spaces. There are some
Speaker 2: days where every parking space I see is almost big enough,
Speaker 2: but not quite, and it drives me into an incandescent rage.
Speaker 1: In Canada, you get those big du lys, the big trucks,
Speaker 1: and they park across that kind of at an angle.
Speaker 1: Across too because they can't fit. Oh, they don't want
Speaker 1: anybody to go and hurt their little truck. That just
Speaker 1: drives me crazy. The other thing that I would place
Speaker 1: a tarrafon is places that don't carry Earl Gray tea
Speaker 1: at least seventeen thousand percent. You're hard, You're very I'm
Speaker 1: going in hard man.
Speaker 2: Okay. Well, actually, if you'd like to join us, please
Speaker 2: let us know what you would put a tariffon. I
Speaker 2: think Anida's one's a weird, but monum very valid. What
Speaker 2: would you put a tariffon? Please go to our socials
Speaker 2: in medicine.
Speaker 1: We want to hear.
Speaker 2: We'd love to share them with you, and share yours
Speaker 2: with us. All right, Well, have a great week everyone.
Speaker 1: And then we will see you next week. A cup
Speaker 1: of tea Earl Gray