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Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcasts. Kids struggling, not

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Speaker 1: feeling resilient, feeling like maths is the worst, or the

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Speaker 1: piano is unfair, or that new thing that you want

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Speaker 1: them to learn is too hard. Today we're talking about resilience.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about pushing through. We're talking about how to

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Speaker 1: get kids gaining momentum, experiencing progress when they just want

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Speaker 1: to quit, and they want to quit right now. It's

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Speaker 1: a dummy spirit. It's toways out of the cot. I'm

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Speaker 1: taking my bat and ball. I'm going home. It's my

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Speaker 1: math's teacher is dumb. They didn't teach me. And why

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Speaker 1: do I have to learn this anyway? How do we

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Speaker 1: deal with the I hate this? Why do I have

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Speaker 1: to do it? I can't do it? Response to children

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Speaker 1: when they don't want to do stuff. That's what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about today on the pod. Stay with us, Hi,

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Speaker 1: Welcome the Happy Family's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every single day.

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Speaker 1: This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin

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Speaker 1: and Kylie Cousen. Were the parents have six children who

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Speaker 1: have all been reluctant to do things at one time

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Speaker 1: or another, and who have all quit things at one

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Speaker 1: time or another because sometimes life feels hard. Today we're

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Speaker 1: talking about how to push them through. And Kylie, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to start with some scientific stuff. So buckle in.

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Speaker 1: Emotions exist on two dimensions. We've talked about this on

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Speaker 1: the plot before. There's the energy dimension and there's the

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Speaker 1: pleasantness dimension. So you can have a high energy, high

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Speaker 1: pleasant emotion like happiness, and we can have a low pleasantness,

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Speaker 1: high energy emotion like anger. Then we have our low energy,

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Speaker 1: low pleasant emotions like sadness, right, and then we've got

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Speaker 1: our low energy highly pleasant emotions. Well come yeah, feeling

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Speaker 1: blissed out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be nice when the kids are sitting down

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Speaker 1: to do something and they decide that it's tricky, I'd say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this is tricky, and what a great

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Speaker 1: opportunity for me to learn, What a great opportunity for

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Speaker 1: me to develop. I can let's find some bliss. I

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Speaker 1: can feel progress on the horizon, said no, child, ever,

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Speaker 1: so you know it and I in fact, this has

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Speaker 1: just happened for us. In the last day or so.

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Speaker 1: Emily hasn't wanted to do her lessons for homeschool. She's

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Speaker 1: come out to the park just down the road from us,

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Speaker 1: and grabbed some big sticks and then she got your

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Speaker 1: craft knife blunted it, trying to turn the sticks into spears.

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Speaker 1: Because living in the world, you'd rather do.

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Speaker 2: That for an hour and a half than sit down

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Speaker 2: and do a couple of mass lessons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, living in the woods would be so much easier.

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Speaker 1: Catching turtles and rabbits would be so much easy.

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Speaker 2: So here's the thing, don't need mass to catch a rabbit.

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Speaker 2: Be very voy quiet, I'm hunting rabbits.

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Speaker 1: Typical response when a child feels like they can't do

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Speaker 1: something or don't want to do something because they don't

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Speaker 1: see the relevance in it.

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Speaker 2: I can't do this, it's too Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So avoidance, right, and avoidance is reinforcing. It feels really

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Speaker 1: pleasant if you think about doing the task that's unpleasant,

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Speaker 1: but avoiding it that's really nice. And that's what our

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Speaker 1: kids do. And that's what Emily's been doing. She's been

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Speaker 1: whittling this wood and blunting your knife for I don't

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Speaker 1: know how long. She made so much mess all over

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Speaker 1: the area that I try to keep clean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you say it like it's just our kids.

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Speaker 2: We all do it, right, yes, yeah, Like what do

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Speaker 2: you do? What do you avoid?

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Speaker 1: I avoid avoidance? Oh, yes, I avoid avoidance. I actually

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Speaker 1: I've just taken it down. But I had a big

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Speaker 1: sign right above my life.

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Speaker 2: Why did you take it down?

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Speaker 1: Because I don't need it anymore. But it said do

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Speaker 1: the work because I was avoiding the work. I had

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Speaker 1: it up there when I was writing my book because

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Speaker 1: I was just so done with writing the book. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: So kids try to get out of the situation. They

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Speaker 1: try to avoid the situation as much as they can.

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Speaker 1: And here's the reframe. This is what today's podcast is

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Speaker 1: really about. That unpleasant zone, that high energy, sometimes low energy,

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Speaker 1: but generally it's a high energy. Unpleasant zone is not

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Speaker 1: the enemy. When you're trying to say I can't do it,

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Speaker 1: it's too hard, this is the worst. What's the point.

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Speaker 1: There's no relevance. I don't see why I have to

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Speaker 1: do this. When they're doing that, when they're trying to

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Speaker 1: avoid and they're in that unpleasant energy zone, when the

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Speaker 1: when the emotion is awful, that's actually not the enemy.

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Speaker 1: That's where powerful real learning gets to happen. If we

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Speaker 1: can reframe it. Now, Please don't misunderstand me. You can

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Speaker 1: learn when you're feeling pleasant. Learning doesn't have to be

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Speaker 1: pain and suffering and misery and torture. I hope not no,

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Speaker 1: but but but but but but you think about your

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Speaker 1: biggest breakthroughs, your biggest learnings, your biggest insights, Most of

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Speaker 1: them come through struggle.

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Speaker 2: Of course.

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Speaker 1: So the argument that I want to make today in

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Speaker 1: the pod is, how do we help our children to

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Speaker 1: recognize that when they're struggling with maths or piano, or

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Speaker 1: with science or within English essay, or with whatever it

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Speaker 1: is that they're struggling with, that they are on the

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Speaker 1: cusp of learning, and that learning is exciting if they

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Speaker 1: can just figure out how to sit there and push

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Speaker 1: through that unbearable unpleasantness, because once they can make that shift,

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Speaker 1: the unpleasantness stops being unpleasant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think motivation plays a really big part

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Speaker 2: in that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So let's talk about what motivates three things. Number one,

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Speaker 1: good relationships. Number two, choosing to do it. Number three

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Speaker 1: feeling competent. So when a child's saying I can't do

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Speaker 1: it number one, the relationship's rupturing because they feel loone.

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Speaker 1: Number two, they feel incompetent and stupid. Number three they're

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Speaker 1: doing something that they would probably not choose to do

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Speaker 1: if they didn't have to. Yeah, which makes the things

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Speaker 1: to be really tricky. So one of my favorite stories

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Speaker 1: that I have shared far too many times, but I'm

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Speaker 1: going to share it again because the lesson in this

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Speaker 1: is just so profound. As a cyclist, I've learned that

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Speaker 1: you've got to love the hills because the hills make

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Speaker 1: you strong. And as a student who failed school early

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Speaker 1: in life and then went on to absolutely thrive at

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Speaker 1: university later in life, that idea just resonates so strongly.

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Speaker 1: You've got to love the hills because the hills make

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Speaker 1: you strong.

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Speaker 2: So my question to you, though, is are we asking

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Speaker 2: or expecting more of our children than is developmentally appropriate?

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Speaker 2: Considering your experience was it wasn't until you were an

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Speaker 2: adult that you found your love for learning.

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Speaker 1: So two things. Number One, schools beat love of learning

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Speaker 1: out of kids, right. And I'm not beating up on

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Speaker 1: teachers here, although some some actually do do this and

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Speaker 1: it's a problem, but many are really really engaged, great

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Speaker 1: teachers who are trying their hardest, and some kids are

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Speaker 1: just like mah. But a student is at school and

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Speaker 1: they don't feel a sense of closeness and a relationship

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Speaker 1: and belonging. If a student feels endlessly incompetent, and if

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Speaker 1: students just going, what's the point, what's the purpose? I'm

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Speaker 1: not choosing to be here at all. This makes no

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Speaker 1: sense to me. Then, no matter what the teacher does,

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Speaker 1: this is going to be a really tough uphill battle.

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Speaker 1: Students have got to see the purpose. It's got to

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Speaker 1: be relevant. That matters more than anything. Otherwise they're just

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Speaker 1: not going to do it. And they've got to have

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Speaker 1: the relationships, then the desire to get better. So for me,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have that until I was older, and that mattered.

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Speaker 1: We can make schooling so that it does feel good

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Speaker 1: and therefore people don't have to go through what I

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Speaker 1: went through to say this is worthwhile. But what I

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Speaker 1: really want to size is this learning zone or this

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Speaker 1: zone that we're in, this unpleasant zone. I want to

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Speaker 1: call it a learning zone because if we can call

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Speaker 1: it a learning zone, what we're doing is we're reframing

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Speaker 1: it for our kids. And what we're saying is, oh,

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Speaker 1: so this is the learning zone. So you don't have

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Speaker 1: to have a dummy spit, you don't have to take

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Speaker 1: your bat and ball and go home. This is a signal.

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Speaker 1: This discomfort, this unpleasantness, this is a signal that growth

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Speaker 1: is happening, or that it's about to happen. And the

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Speaker 1: longer your child can stay in the learning zone, the

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Speaker 1: more they're going to learn. Simple case in point, learning

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Speaker 1: to ride a bike. I mean, I know I talked

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Speaker 1: about you've got to love the hills because the hills

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Speaker 1: make you strong. But let's go back to when you

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Speaker 1: were teaching your child to ride a bike. They're wobbly,

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Speaker 1: they're getting frustrated, they fall off, maybe they even get

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Speaker 1: a hurty knee and they bleed a little bit. That's

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Speaker 1: all high energy, and it's all highly unpleasant as well.

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Speaker 1: But if you can get them to stay in that

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Speaker 1: learning zone for long enough, they have that breakthrough. And

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Speaker 1: now that you've taught them to ride a bike, they're

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Speaker 1: flying down the street. They've got the wind in their hair.

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Speaker 1: No they don't, they're wearing a helmet, but they've got

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Speaker 1: the wind going through their helmet. They've got a big

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Speaker 1: smile on their face. And it's the same whether it's

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Speaker 1: making friends or learning fractions, or figuring out how to

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Speaker 1: write an essay or tying shoelacers. These can all feel

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Speaker 1: unpleas but by sitting in that learning zone for as

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Speaker 1: long as possible, that's how we grow. So after the break,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about how we can help our

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Speaker 1: kids to actually want to be in that learning zone

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Speaker 1: so that they can stay there longer and learn more.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us, we're back with the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 1: How do we get kids to want to be in

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Speaker 1: the learning zone? Kylie, I think we need to sit

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Speaker 1: our children down, look at them in the eyes and say,

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Speaker 1: as they're struggling with their English essay, or as they're

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Speaker 1: struggling with their home reader or whatever it is, dear child,

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Speaker 1: there is no triumph without the trial.

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Speaker 2: I'll unleash you.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's going to work. Our job, somehow,

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Speaker 1: is to have this conversation where we communicate with them

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Speaker 1: that uncomfortable emotions are just a signal that they are

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Speaker 1: in the learning zone, and ironically that can simply be enough.

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Speaker 1: That can be the prompt that they need so that

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Speaker 1: they can steady their emotions and put their head down

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Speaker 1: and stay on the learning zone long enough to actually

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Speaker 1: learn the thing that they need to learn, which means

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Speaker 1: that they don't feel unpleasant anymore. Like if I said

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Speaker 1: to you, I know what you're going through is really hard,

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Speaker 1: but by going through this hard thing, it's going to

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Speaker 1: make you stronger. There's a chance I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you tell me, are you?

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Speaker 2: It depends whether I want to be strong.

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Speaker 1: It depends on whether you exactly. So you've been making

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Speaker 1: a big deal in the pod lately that you're really

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Speaker 1: enjoying pt You're enjoying the experience of being in the

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Speaker 1: gym and try to lift heavy things and move your

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Speaker 1: body in ways that you haven't moved it before. And

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Speaker 1: when you feel disgruntled, when you feel like it's really hard,

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Speaker 1: and our trainer says to you, these next three reps

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Speaker 1: are the ones that count the most. And you're so

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Speaker 1: thinking that I can't lift one more rep and you're

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Speaker 1: saying to do three more. You hear him say that,

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Speaker 1: and what do you do? Sure, you grown and complain,

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Speaker 1: but then you lift and you stay in that zone.

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Speaker 1: You stay in that zone of discomfort, that zone of unpleasantness,

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Speaker 1: that zone of sweat and tears and frustration and pain

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Speaker 1: because you know that in three reps you'll have done

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Speaker 1: what you need to do to get there. Somehow we've

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Speaker 1: got to teach our kids that exact same thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's great for us when we know that we're in

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Speaker 1: the learning zone, something shifts. But here's the thing. When

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Speaker 1: you just say you're feeling unpleasant and that's normal that

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Speaker 1: you're feeling unpleasant because you're learning something right now and

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Speaker 1: it's hard. But once you've learned it, this won't feel

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Speaker 1: unpleasant anymore. The game changes and your.

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Speaker 2: Kids there's something else that replaces it. Yes, somebody else

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Speaker 2: speaking on sad instead.

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Speaker 1: That's life, But we don't tell the kids that otherwise

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Speaker 1: they sounds a bit nihilistic. I feel like we've gone

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Speaker 1: on nature on ear. So the one thing that we've

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Speaker 1: got to highlight here, Kyleie, is this only works, even

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Speaker 1: morally or ethically or both, when the struggles worthwhile. And

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Speaker 1: you kind of hinted at this in the first part

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Speaker 1: of our conversation. Suffering through busy work because it's on

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Speaker 1: the curriculum is just suffering, yep. But when the challenge matters,

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Speaker 1: that's when the discomfort promotes progress. And again I just

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Speaker 1: I go back to this thing. You're in the gym

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Speaker 1: or I want to bite going up a hill if

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Speaker 1: I'm choosing it. If I can see the purpose in it,

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Speaker 1: then I'm going to be happy to be in the

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Speaker 1: learning zone. So our job when I case.

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Speaker 2: In point, Yeah, I couldn't skip last week.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, literally, I'm like, I wish that this was

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Speaker 1: not a podcast. I wish we could play video right now,

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Speaker 1: that this was not audio only because watching and I'm publicly,

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Speaker 1: I'm publicly humilating you. I'm aware of that, and I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that you're laughing along with me. But watching you skip,

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Speaker 1: everyone in the gym, they were only there are only

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Speaker 1: three or four of us, but everyone in the gym

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Speaker 1: was just in stitches because you.

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Speaker 2: It was like I was I was like a marching soldier. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like I couldn't work out how to how

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Speaker 1: to do the hop before you.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't even the hop, forget the hop. I had

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Speaker 2: to get my opposite arm and leg to work at

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Speaker 2: the same time. That was the first thing. So the

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Speaker 2: only way I could do that was to do literally

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Speaker 2: straight arm and leg regimented soldier, but in.

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Speaker 1: A skipping format without the hop. Well, it was just

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Speaker 1: so funny. So we were laughing at heads off. But

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Speaker 1: after about a week of practicing, you finally figured out

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Speaker 1: how to skip, and now you run up and down

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Speaker 1: the what was run? You skip up and down the

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Speaker 1: corridor at home with a great big smile on your

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Speaker 1: face because you can skip. But you had to go

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Speaker 1: through this period of it was more than a week, actually,

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Speaker 1: it was about ten days where you literally couldn't skip,

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Speaker 1: and you're getting really frustrated and you were actually a

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Speaker 1: little bit hurt when we laughed a little bit too

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Speaker 1: hard once.

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Speaker 2: So I was. I was, But I think the turning

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Speaker 2: point for me with that it was I was really

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Speaker 2: embarrassed when I first tried to do it, because in

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Speaker 2: my head I knew exactly what needed to happen, and clearly,

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Speaker 2: as a child, I skipped lots, but I've lost that

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Speaker 2: neural pathway of years and years of not using it,

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Speaker 2: and so everybody was laughing, and I felt really embarrassed

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Speaker 2: to start with. And the turning point for me was

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Speaker 2: realizing that it was actually quite really funny and if

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Speaker 2: I could just tap into that laughter thing and just

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Speaker 2: enjoy the process and recognize that with a little bit

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Speaker 2: more help and a little bit more technique, I can

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Speaker 2: work this out. It's about getting curious, not furious. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of the same.

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Speaker 1: Thing with yourself. Yeah, so here's the upshot, because we

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Speaker 1: need to wrap. If you've got a child who doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to do stuff. Number one, let's make sure it's relevant.

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Speaker 2: They can't skip and not swim.

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Speaker 1: Make sure it's relevant. Make sure that it's purposeful. If

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Speaker 1: it's not, you're facing an uphill battle. That's the reality. Okay,

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Speaker 1: They've got to believe that it's relevant and purposeful. If

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Speaker 1: you've got that, then it's a case of saying, well,

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Speaker 1: if this matters. You're feeling uncomfortable because you can't do

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Speaker 1: it right now. But the longer you can stay in

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Speaker 1: this space of feeling uncomfortable and keep working at it,

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Speaker 1: the sooner you'll get to the point where it is

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Speaker 1: comfortable because you figured it out. And that tiny reframe

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Speaker 1: that we spent the last sort of twelve or thirteen

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Speaker 1: minutes talking about, that tiny ree frame changes the game

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Speaker 1: purposes everything. But once you've got purpose, you're willing to

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Speaker 1: sit in the suffering. Victor Frankel in man Search for

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Speaker 1: Meanings said he who has a why can live with

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Speaker 1: any how. In other words, you'll push through hard stuff

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Speaker 1: if you've got a reason for it. That's the Happy

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Speaker 1: Family's podcast and today we really hope this helps your

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Speaker 1: kids to stay in the learning zone, no matter how

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Speaker 1: old they are and no matter what they're struggling with.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. The Happy Families podcast is

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Speaker 1: produced by Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds provides

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Speaker 1: admin and other support and if you'd like more info

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Speaker 1: to make your family happy, to help you to be happier,

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Speaker 1: especially if you're raising an ADHD child, check out our

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Speaker 1: ADHD parenting courses online now. It's all a lot Happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot au