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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: All right, Sara, are you ready, Let's do it. Good

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Speaker 2: morning and welcome to the Daily os It's Friday, the

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Speaker 2: third of March. I'm sam, I'm Zara. The Act is

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Speaker 2: set to become the first Australian jurisdiction to legally change

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Speaker 2: the way young intersects people are treated by health professionals.

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Speaker 3: To give people the opportunity to see they're not alone,

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Speaker 3: but they have options, there's a community that is there

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Speaker 3: for them and to feel good about who they are

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Speaker 3: and their unique differences.

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Speaker 2: The Chief Minister of the Act, Andrew Barr, announced the

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Speaker 2: territory would be introducing this new legend while speaking on

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Speaker 2: a panel at Sydney World Pride this week. But what

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Speaker 2: exactly will the law mean and can we expect similar legislations?

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Speaker 2: We rolled out across the country. Will let you know

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Speaker 2: in the deep dive firs AARA what's making headlines this morning.

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Speaker 4: A major overhaul to Australia Posts operations has been signaled

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Speaker 4: by the federal government. Changes could include lowering the frequency

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Speaker 4: of letter deliveries to focus more on parcel deliveries. The

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Speaker 4: proposal was made in a discussion paper release this week,

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Speaker 4: which seeks to ensure that Australia Posts can keep up

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Speaker 4: with modern expectations.

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Speaker 2: A forty year old man was fatally shot while with

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Speaker 2: his twelve year old son in Sydney yesterday. New South

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Speaker 2: Wales Police said the man was shot just after six

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Speaker 2: thirty am and died at the scene despite being treated

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Speaker 2: by paramedics. The police are pursuing at least two people

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Speaker 2: over the shooting, and they are also investigating a possible

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Speaker 2: gangland connection.

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Speaker 4: The US Governe government has approved a potential sale of

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Speaker 4: weapons to Taiwan worth almost one billion Australian dollars. The

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Speaker 4: Pentagon has said this week that the sale would contribute

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Speaker 4: to Taiwan's capability to defend its airspace, as well as

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Speaker 4: enhance its regional security and relations with the US.

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Speaker 2: And Today's Good news, A new moai statue on Rapuanui,

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Speaker 2: which we might know as Easter Island, has been discovered.

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Speaker 2: The moai, which are carved human figures created by inhabitants

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Speaker 2: centuries ago, are a fixture of the island, with the

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Speaker 2: new discovery said to provide the potential for new scientific

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Speaker 2: and natural studies in the area. The Chief Minister of

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Speaker 2: the Act has announced a new law that will change

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Speaker 2: the way medical professionals deal with young intersex people. We

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Speaker 2: wanted to know a bit more about this area and

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Speaker 2: what the law would do, but also how likely we

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Speaker 2: are to see this kind of reform rolling out across

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Speaker 2: the country, So our podcast producer Nina reached out to

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Speaker 2: the legal director of a Quality the Australia, Gussan Casasia.

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Speaker 2: He was involved in drafting the framework that will shape

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Speaker 2: this new law in the Act.

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Speaker 5: Gazan, thank you so much for joining us on the

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Speaker 5: podcast today. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me so The news.

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Speaker 5: This week is that the Act will pass legislation to

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Speaker 5: protect people with innate variations of sex characteristics. I think

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Speaker 5: before we do anything else, can you just help us

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Speaker 5: unpack what innate variations of sex characteristics means sure.

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Speaker 3: So we're talking about a group of people who have

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Speaker 3: at least forty different types of traits that mean that

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Speaker 3: their bodies don't conform with social or medical norms for

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Speaker 3: male or female bodies. So people can have variations in

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Speaker 3: their sex chromosomes, hormonal variations based on sex, as well

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Speaker 3: as physical and atomical differences of sex, like in the

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Speaker 3: genital area.

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Speaker 5: Currently under the law in Australia, what rights do people

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Speaker 5: have who are born with those characteristics.

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Speaker 3: Well, the issue is around particularly procedures, medical procedures that

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Speaker 3: can be performed on their bodies when they are young

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Speaker 3: and before they have an opportunity to have a say

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Speaker 3: in what happens to their own bodies. So under the

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Speaker 3: law now, parents generally make the decisions for these treatments

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Speaker 3: on the advice of doctors. And what the Act is

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Speaker 3: talking about and what the Intersects movement have caught for,

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Speaker 3: is where decisions can be delayed. So that is where

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Speaker 3: treatments can be delayed until the person themselves can make

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Speaker 3: their own decisions. That the law should allow for that

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Speaker 3: to happen. And that's what we're talking about here, is

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Speaker 3: giving power or control to people to make decisions over

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Speaker 3: their own bodies.

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Speaker 5: And I definitely want to get more into what that

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Speaker 5: looks like and how we legislate that. But I do

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Speaker 5: think there's more to kind of understand in terms of

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Speaker 5: what decisions are actually being made by parents and what

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Speaker 5: that actually looks like for families who are grappling with

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Speaker 5: what the right thing to do is for their child.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I mean, because there is forty so different variations,

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Speaker 3: lots of different types of treatments. But if I could

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Speaker 3: give you a few examples, if, for example, your child

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Speaker 3: is born with CAH or congenital adrenal hyperplasia, which is

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Speaker 3: one of the traits it can present in having a

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Speaker 3: clitorist that is virialized or effectively looks larger than what

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Speaker 3: would be typical for a girl, and so some surgeries

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Speaker 3: are performed to so called normalize the genital area for

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Speaker 3: a child to look more female. So what we're talking

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Speaker 3: about is a range of procedures that are sometimes cosmetic

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Speaker 3: in nature, not always based on any medical need, but

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Speaker 3: more around fears that people might have that the child

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Speaker 3: needs to modify their body in order to fit the

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Speaker 3: society around them. And really what the issue is is

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Speaker 3: the society around them needs to change to accommodate the

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Speaker 3: fact that these are naturally occurring variations in the human

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Speaker 3: population and they manifest in ways that are very often

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Speaker 3: very natural, not harmful, and don't need to be corrected

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Speaker 3: by procedures like surgeries or even hormone treatments that sometimes

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Speaker 3: are really just directed at fitting norms around gender and

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Speaker 3: the ways bodies should appear or behave and.

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Speaker 5: You and Equality Australia have been involved with doing consultation

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Speaker 5: with community to hear what the impacts of this are, right,

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Speaker 5: because before you legislate, you need to understand what the

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Speaker 5: implications of the current system are. So what are you

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Speaker 5: hearing from people about what the real consequences of these

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Speaker 5: decisions are?

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Speaker 3: Well, absolutely so. I think the first thing to say

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Speaker 3: is the call for control over one's own bodies has

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Speaker 3: really been led by the intersex movement in Australia and internationally,

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Speaker 3: so Equality Australia was commissioned by the Victorian government to

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Speaker 3: do a consultation. It was probably Australia's largest consultation, certainly

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Speaker 3: one of the largest that I'm aware of, with people

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Speaker 3: with very of sex characteristics with their families and parents

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Speaker 3: and with clinicians we spoke to just over one hundred people.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that they told us were the

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Speaker 3: consequences of having that autonomy taken away from them is

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Speaker 3: extremely harmful to their mental health, their sense of self.

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Speaker 3: They weren't always told about what treatments were performed on

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Speaker 3: their bodies, so there was a real loss of understanding.

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Speaker 3: But then there are also physical consequences for people loss

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Speaker 3: of sensation, loss of sexual function, loss of fertility. Some

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Speaker 3: people who strongly regretted the decisions that were made felt

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Speaker 3: very unhappy about the decisions were made for themselves. Others

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Speaker 3: who were not unhappy with the decisions, but unhappy that

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Speaker 3: they weren't the ones to make them. And when we

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Speaker 3: talked to parents what they told us sometimes they regretted

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Speaker 3: the decisions they felt they were pressured to make because

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Speaker 3: at the time when they're child was born, they didn't

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Speaker 3: understand what they were facing in terms of a child

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Speaker 3: with an intersex variation. It was a new thing for them,

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Speaker 3: and they were in a doctor's room being told we

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Speaker 3: can fix this for you, not really hearing other voices

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Speaker 3: in the room, including people from variations of sex characteristics,

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Speaker 3: which said we don't need to be fixed. We need

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Speaker 3: society around us to realize that there are these variations.

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Speaker 3: These are naturally occurring variations in our society. They don't

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Speaker 3: need medical interventions in many cases, and even if they do,

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Speaker 3: it should be something that we get to decide for

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Speaker 3: ourselves when and how those interventions occur.

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Speaker 5: To come back to what's happened this week, and we're

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Speaker 5: getting indications from the Act that they are going to

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Speaker 5: pass legislation. Now, what does legislation look like in order

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Speaker 5: to ensure that it's the person being impacted that has

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Speaker 5: the right to consent.

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Speaker 3: So we yet to see the final bill that the

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Speaker 3: Act will be forward, but they have released a consultation

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Speaker 3: draft and much of that was informed by the framework

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Speaker 3: that we worked on in Victoria, and we've also provided

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Speaker 3: to the Act. What it does is it sets up

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Speaker 3: what we call like an oversight panel or oversight body.

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Speaker 3: It's a group of individuals with particular types of experience,

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Speaker 3: so some clinical voices, some people with lived experience, others

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Speaker 3: in human rights, bioethics, and psychosocial experience, so psychologists and

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Speaker 3: social workers who will be able to decide whether or

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Speaker 3: not a treatment that is proposed is really necessary, or

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Speaker 3: whether the treatment can be delayed until the person is

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Speaker 3: old enough to consent for themselves. The legislation that we

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Speaker 3: saw in draft at least sets up a pathway. We're

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Speaker 3: not talking here about emergency treatment. Emergency treatment that's necessary

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Speaker 3: to save life will without any process that will be okay.

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Speaker 3: And what we have recommended is that there is a

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Speaker 3: monitoring loop or a reporting obligation, so that if you

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Speaker 3: take advantage of the exception for emergency treatment, all you

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Speaker 3: will do is need to tell the body, the oversight panel,

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Speaker 3: that you have done so. And that's so that the

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Speaker 3: panel understands the kinds of treatments that are happening and

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Speaker 3: how the legislation is being operated or used in practice.

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Speaker 3: So putting aside emergency treatments that are necessary today, what

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Speaker 3: the legislation that we've seen in draft form sets up

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Speaker 3: is an opportunity for what they call a general treatment plan.

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Speaker 3: That is a class of treatments that will always be

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Speaker 3: okay because it is better now to have that treatment

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Speaker 3: than to delay it. And that might be because it

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Speaker 3: preserves options for the future, such as fertility. So there's

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Speaker 3: certainly some treatments that need to happen today. They might

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Speaker 3: not be emergency treatment, but they actually enlarge the choices

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Speaker 3: that are available to someone in the future. On the

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Speaker 3: other hand, there are some treatments today which are really

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Speaker 3: just based on social norms or fears that people might

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Speaker 3: have around stigmatization or discrimination, and so there there will

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Speaker 3: be an individual process for the oversight panel to make

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Speaker 3: sure that it is for a good reason, not a

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Speaker 3: reason that is informed by fears or speculation. That might

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Speaker 3: be addressed in other ways which are better for the person,

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Speaker 3: like giving them social support or psychological care that means

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Speaker 3: that they learn to live in the body that they

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Speaker 3: have been given in a way that allows them to

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Speaker 3: thrive and see the opportunities in the world, and to

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Speaker 3: change the minds of their family and people around them

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Speaker 3: to see how special it is to have a variation

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Speaker 3: and be among many that have that variation, so they

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Speaker 3: don't feel like they're the only ones.

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Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break, will be right back.

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Speaker 5: So it sounds like the ECTS moving forward. We just

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Speaker 5: have to wait to see what that final legislation will be.

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Speaker 5: It sounds like Victoria's been doing consultations. What are we

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Speaker 5: seeing across the board in other states and territories. Is

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Speaker 5: this getting momentum nationwide?

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Speaker 3: So the Australian Human Rights Commission, in a call that

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Speaker 3: we would back, is calling on all states and territories

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Speaker 3: to move The act will be the first, which is wonderful.

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Speaker 3: Victoria's hopefully close behind. They've made a commitment to reform,

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Speaker 3: but we haven't yet seen the details of that reform. Now,

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Speaker 3: I would urge all the states and territories to look

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Speaker 3: at the grave human rights issue that's presented by taking

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Speaker 3: away the right of a person to decide what happens

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Speaker 3: to day their own bodies. We can also look overseas,

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Speaker 3: because Australia is not the first, Malta, Iceland, Greece. All

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Speaker 3: of these countries, and many in Latin America as well,

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Speaker 3: have already started the work of putting in mechanisms to

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Speaker 3: ensure that people have control over what happens to their

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Speaker 3: own bodies. How they've done it is slightly different in

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Speaker 3: each place, and we've all been learning from each other

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Speaker 3: about the best way forward. What I'm hoping to see

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Speaker 3: in Australia is a scheme that really understands the individual

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Speaker 3: before them. It surrounds any legal decision making with the

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Speaker 3: psychosocial support that's necessary to not only address the treatment

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Speaker 3: in question, but to give people the opportunity to see

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Speaker 3: they're not alone, that they have options, there's a community

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Speaker 3: that is there for them, and to feel good about

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Speaker 3: who they are and their unique differences.

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Speaker 5: NISM, thank you so much for your timeppreciate.

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Speaker 3: It, pleasure. Thanks so much for the opportunity.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us on the Daily OS. How have

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Speaker 2: you been feeling about the podcast this week? I know

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Speaker 2: Zara and I've loved delivering some really interesting conversations, and

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Speaker 2: we would equally love if you could give us a

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Speaker 2: rating and review on whatever app you've got open right now.

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Speaker 2: It helps new people find us and join the TDA community.

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Speaker 2: Have a beautiful weekend.