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Speaker 1: Already and.

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Speaker 2: The Daily This is the Daily ohs oh, now it

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Speaker 2: makes sense. Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: It's Wednesday, the seventeenth of April.

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Speaker 1: I'm Zara, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 2: Just two days after the traumatic events of Saturday's mass

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Speaker 2: stabbing in Bundi Junction, another major event unfolded in Sydney

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Speaker 2: on Monday night. This time a bishop was stabbed in

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Speaker 2: a church in the city's west. Yesterday, New South Wales

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Speaker 2: Police declared the event a terrorist act and called for

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Speaker 2: calm after angry crowds injured police officers and damaged vehicles

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Speaker 2: following stabbing. On today's podcast, we're gonna look at what happened,

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Speaker 2: what actually constitutes an act of terrorism, and some steps

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Speaker 2: for how to handle such a difficult period in the news.

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Speaker 2: But first Sam the headlines.

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Speaker 1: Police are investigating ace expected poisoning at a Victorian health

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Speaker 1: retreat after a woman died and two others were taken

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Speaker 1: to hospital. The group were staying at a well being

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Speaker 1: retreat in the town of Kloons, which is north of Ballarat.

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Speaker 1: Please say. A fifty three year old woman became ill

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Speaker 1: on Saturday afternoon after consuming a drink and died at

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Speaker 1: the scene. Nine newspapers reported the drink may have been

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Speaker 1: mushroom based. Two other retreat guests were taken to hospital

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Speaker 1: for observation as investigations continue.

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Speaker 2: The Prime Minister has offered citizenship to a Frenchman who

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Speaker 2: confronted the knifemen responsible for Saturday's Bondai Junction attack. Six

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Speaker 2: people were killed by the attacker at a Westfield shopping center.

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Speaker 2: Footage shows Damien Garau at the top of an escalator,

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Speaker 2: threatening the perpetrator with a ballard in a bid to

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Speaker 2: stop him from hurting others. The PM described Garau as

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Speaker 2: quote someone who we would welcome becoming an Australian citizen,

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Speaker 2: and mentioned Garau was dealing with visa applications. The PM

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Speaker 2: said Garau was welcome here and welcome to stay as

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Speaker 2: long as he'd like.

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Speaker 1: Solibon Islands voters will head to the polls for an

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Speaker 1: election today. It's the first election since the Pacific nation's

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister, Manaseer Sogovare signed a security deal with China

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Speaker 1: last year. It's also the first time the country's national,

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Speaker 1: provincial and capital City council elections have all been held

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Speaker 1: on the same day. Australia, which has its own security

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Speaker 1: deal with the Solomon Islands expressed concern about the China deal,

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Speaker 1: but is expected to provide additional police and defense staff

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Speaker 1: to support the election.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news, one of the rarest primates on

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Speaker 2: Earth has been born in the US. Endangered Borni and

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Speaker 2: orangutang mum Luna gave birth to a healthy girl at

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Speaker 2: a Florida zoo this week. Estimated, there are around one

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand endangered borni and orangutangs left in the world,

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Speaker 2: and around seven five hundred sumatran orangutangs, which are critically endangered.

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Speaker 2: According to the Nature Conservancy, orangutang population have declined by

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Speaker 2: fifty percent since nineteen sixty. It feels like we haven't

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Speaker 2: done a podcast episode without a warning in a number

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Speaker 2: of days. But as with the previous material that we

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Speaker 2: have spoken about, this podcast will cover some disturbing events.

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Speaker 2: So if you think that you're not in the right

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Speaker 2: head space to listen, we'll be back again tomorrow. So

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Speaker 2: Sam news broke at around seven thirty pm on Monday

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Speaker 2: night of another Sydney stabbing. It was almost unbelievable to

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Speaker 2: consider then in a matter of days we were having

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Speaker 2: another conversation about a stabbing in this city.

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Speaker 1: I almost didn't believe it when the headlines came across.

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Speaker 2: My phone and the events that unfolded were incredibly disturbing.

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Speaker 2: Can you begin with what actually happened, so.

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Speaker 1: Zara, Yeah, we got the news at seven thirty. That

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Speaker 1: at about seven ten, so twenty minutes earlier on Monday night,

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Speaker 1: police recalled to the Christ of the Good Shepherd Church

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Speaker 1: in Wakely, and that's near Fairfield in Sydney's West and

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Speaker 1: they were wanting to reports that the church's bishop, who's

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Speaker 1: a man named mar Murray Emmanuel, and others had been

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Speaker 1: stabbed during the service. And when police got there, they

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Speaker 1: found two victims with non life threatening stab wounds and

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Speaker 1: a sixteen year old boy who had been restrained by

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Speaker 1: members of the congregation. He was transported to hospital and arrested.

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Speaker 1: And when I was first alerted about the incident, I

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Speaker 1: did what I normally do, what you normally do, and

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Speaker 1: jump straight onto social media and that's where I saw

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Speaker 1: some really harrowing footage of the stabbing itself. And the

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Speaker 1: reason why it was filmed from a front on angle

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Speaker 1: in its entirety is because the bishop streams a lot

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Speaker 1: of his services. He's actually a big deal online. Mar

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Speaker 1: Marie Emmanuel himself has about one hundred thousand followers on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: his church has about two hundred thousand followers, and mar

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Speaker 1: Marie Emmanuel goes on religious podcasts as a guest and

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Speaker 1: some of those interviews have as many as one point

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Speaker 1: five million views. So he's a big deal and he's

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Speaker 1: very well known in c they's Assyrian Orthodox Christian community.

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Speaker 2: And we really got a sense of the size of

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Speaker 2: the community and the anger with the scene that developed

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Speaker 2: very rapidly outside the church. So we first found out,

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Speaker 2: and we first got notified by police that something had happened,

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Speaker 2: and then you texted me like mim minutes later saying,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, there are now riots. It's escalating really

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Speaker 2: really quickly. Talk me through that well.

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Speaker 1: In that first statement released to media by police, they

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Speaker 1: were commenting on the public order situation that was unfolding

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Speaker 1: outside the church. So almost immediately after the stabbing, large

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Speaker 1: crowds started to gather outside the church, and concern seemed

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Speaker 1: to move to anger quite quickly, and that anger started

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Speaker 1: to be directed towards police and paramedics. The crowds began

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Speaker 1: to hurl objects at police officers. A number of police

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Speaker 1: officers were injured and a number of police vehicles were

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Speaker 1: seriously damaged. There's some photos of you know, windows being

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Speaker 1: smashed in my bricks and that kind of thing, and

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Speaker 1: that led the police to declare a public order incident.

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Speaker 1: Now from social media footage from outside the church, it

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Speaker 1: appears those that had gathered were calling for the perpetrator,

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Speaker 1: who may have still been in the church at that time,

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Speaker 1: to be brought out to them. There was also some

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Speaker 1: concern that there would be retaliatory attacks at other religious

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Speaker 1: institutions in the area, including some mosques. Now, thankfully that

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Speaker 1: does not appear to have happened.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to draw any comparisons between what happened

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Speaker 2: on Monday night and what happened on Saturday in Ponde Junction,

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Speaker 2: but just from a news gathering point of view, one

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Speaker 2: thing that was very different about this event was that

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Speaker 2: it happened late at night and that what we understand

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Speaker 2: is that the government response and the police response occurred

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Speaker 2: then in the early hours of Tuesday morning. What happened

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Speaker 2: during those crisis talks.

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Speaker 1: Well, this timeline of how the night developed for New

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Speaker 1: South Wales Premier Chris Men's, the Police Commissioner and all

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Speaker 1: of their advisors and agencies. We learned of those late

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Speaker 1: night talks in a press conference the next morning.

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Speaker 3: In a moment the New South Wales Police Commission I

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Speaker 3: will speak about this investigation and her decision at one

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Speaker 3: thirty five am to determine that this was a terrorist

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Speaker 3: act and investigation. That decision was validated by the Minister

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Speaker 3: for Police at one forty four am, with her contacting

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Speaker 3: me at two am this morning.

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Speaker 1: The important bit clearly is that this was designated as

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Speaker 1: a terrorist act, and this was later supported by Azio's

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Speaker 1: chief his name's Mike Burgess, who spoke from Canberra with

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Speaker 1: the Prime Minister later in the morning.

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Speaker 4: We support New South Wales government and the police for

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Speaker 4: calling this a terrorist incident. It does appear to be

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Speaker 4: religiously motivated, but we continue our lines of investigation now.

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Speaker 2: The as O chief there said that it appeared to

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Speaker 2: be religiously motivated, and the incident has since been called,

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Speaker 2: as you said, an act of terror. I do think

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Speaker 2: it's important to recognize some of the parallels, and of

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Speaker 2: course they are very different incidents, but some of the

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Speaker 2: parallels between what happened in by Day Junction and what

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Speaker 2: happened on Monday night. They were both stabbing, both appeared

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Speaker 2: to be directed towards a particular group of people. One's

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Speaker 2: been called a terrorist act and the other hasn't.

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Speaker 1: Why The first thing to say is that we're still

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Speaker 1: learning a lot of details about both events, so I

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Speaker 1: think that needs to be taken into account when covering

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Speaker 1: this story. But there clearly was enough evidence on Monday

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Speaker 1: Night's attack in the church for authorities to declare it

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Speaker 1: a terrorist attack hours later, and it really does lead

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Speaker 1: us into a discussion about what exactly a terrorist act is.

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Speaker 2: Which we've already spoken about this week.

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Speaker 1: On the podcast, and Mike Burgess was actually point blank

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Speaker 1: asked this question in the press conference. Here's how he

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Speaker 1: defined a terrorist act and why authorities could relatively quickly

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Speaker 1: identify that one was a terrorist act and one wasn't.

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Speaker 4: Simple answer there is to call it a terrorist attack,

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Speaker 4: you need indications of what information or evidence suggests actually

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Speaker 4: the motivation was religiously motivated, idologically motivated. In the case

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Speaker 4: of Saturday, that was not the case in this case

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Speaker 4: we and the police have before us. It would indicate

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Speaker 4: strongly that that is the case, and that's why it

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Speaker 4: was called an act of terrorism.

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Speaker 1: So the important point there is this idea of a

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Speaker 1: religious motivation. And if we then compare his answer with

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Speaker 1: the legislation and dive into the law here, the Criminal

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Speaker 1: Code spells it out in a slightly more expanded way

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Speaker 1: than Mike Burgess by saying a terrorist act is when

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Speaker 1: a violent act satisfies two different parts. The first part

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Speaker 1: is the act is made with the intention of advancing

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Speaker 1: a political, religious, or ideological cause, and the second part

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Speaker 1: is when the act causes either death, serious harm danger

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Speaker 1: to a person or members of the public. So obviously, yep,

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Speaker 1: this is an ongoing investigation. It's still early days.

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Speaker 2: But what was and it was very early that they

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Speaker 2: did call it.

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Speaker 1: So exactly, And it does seem that the attack at

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Speaker 1: the church on Monday night meets the criteria of having

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Speaker 1: a political, religious, or ideological motivation and that the sixteen

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Speaker 1: year old in the incident on Monday night did indeed

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Speaker 1: meet the tests associated.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this has been a really challenging part

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Speaker 2: of this news cycle, and certainly I think of being

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Speaker 2: on social media for the daily ours, I think we've

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Speaker 2: seen a lot of comments calling on us to label

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Speaker 2: things a terrorist act or a terrorist act. And I

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Speaker 2: do think that conversations like this are really important to

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Speaker 2: highlight that it's certainly not up to us to be

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Speaker 2: declaring something under the Criminal Code as an act of terror.

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Speaker 2: You know, you can rightly or wrongly criticize how that

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Speaker 2: legislation looks and the parameters that are there, But I

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Speaker 2: think it's important to note that there is a clear

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Speaker 2: definition that is being followed when it comes to the

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Speaker 2: designation of these acts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I really appreciate how hard it would be

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Speaker 1: for all of us to get our heads around two

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Speaker 1: events happening so close together, both traumatic in nature. One

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Speaker 1: has been classified as a terrorist acts, the other hasn't.

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Speaker 1: But as you're saying, there is a legal framework around this.

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Speaker 2: So in that case, what do we know about the

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Speaker 2: sixteen year old who will presumably end up being charged

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Speaker 2: under terrorism laws.

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Speaker 1: Well, we don't know a lot. And I think something

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Speaker 1: to remember here is because of his age, we might,

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Speaker 1: in fact, no, yeah, we might, in fact no less

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Speaker 1: than we normally do about somebody in his situation over

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Speaker 1: the age of eighteen. We know that he remains under

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Speaker 1: police guard in hospital after undergoing surgery for injuries to

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Speaker 1: his hand, and New South Wales Police Commissioner Karen Webb

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Speaker 1: told media that he was known to police, but he

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Speaker 1: wasn't on any terror watch list. Then about midway through yesterday,

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Speaker 1: the ABC came out with a story saying that the

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old was currently serving a good behavior bond

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Speaker 1: for a knife crime after an incident at a Sydney train.

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Speaker 2: Just clarify what a good behavior bond.

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Speaker 1: A good behavior bond is basically a sentence given to

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Speaker 1: you by the court where you're allowed to stay in

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Speaker 1: the community almost on your last warning before jail exactly

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Speaker 1: if one more thing is to happen. There's some pretty

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Speaker 1: serious consent sequences.

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Speaker 2: So he was serving a good behavior bond for a

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Speaker 2: knife crime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So most good behavior bonds are in the realm

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Speaker 1: of twelve months. They can be longer or shorter. He

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Speaker 1: was serving a good behavior bond after a knife crime

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Speaker 1: that happened in November. He was on bail between November

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Speaker 1: when the crime happened and January where he appeared in court,

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Speaker 1: and then he was given that good behavior bond. Now,

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Speaker 1: the other thing that authorities have told us about Monday

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Speaker 1: night is that it is believed at this point that

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Speaker 1: he was acting alone. Zara. Before we end this chat,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you what you're doing right now

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Speaker 1: to look after your own mental health in a news

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Speaker 1: cycle that is it's a bruising one this week.

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Speaker 2: It's a really good question. I think I've been I

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Speaker 2: don't know if I have a right to say this,

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Speaker 2: really disappointed by social media this week. Why because I

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Speaker 2: think we've seen the worst of it. I genuinely think

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Speaker 2: we've seen the worst of it, whether it be the

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Speaker 2: misidentification of a perpetrator on Saturday, whether it be just

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Speaker 2: jumping to this like xenophobia or Islamophobia or anti semitism

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Speaker 2: when there are no facts out there, people not necessarily

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Speaker 2: rallying around each other but causing divides. And then most

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Speaker 2: recently with this event, I was so disappointed seeing you know,

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Speaker 2: prominent personalities on Twitter or organizations who should be named

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Speaker 2: and shamed. But I won't do that, sharing these images

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Speaker 2: or this live stream of a stabbing without any warning,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I didn't want to see that, and

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Speaker 2: I think I saw it about five times on Monday night.

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Speaker 2: And so in answer to your question what I am doing,

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Speaker 2: I think I'm trying to be really mindful about why

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Speaker 2: I am going on to social media right now. I

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Speaker 2: am always seeking out authoritative sources when I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: decipher fact from fiction. I've had so many group chats

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Speaker 2: with people asking questions about what's happened in any number

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Speaker 2: of these instances, and my answer has always been, I

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Speaker 2: will check with police. You know, I will get on

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Speaker 2: phone and I will call police and our check because

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Speaker 2: until we have confirmation from a reliable source that whatever

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Speaker 2: is being espoused is true, I don't think that it's

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Speaker 2: healthy debate to be having.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the only thing I would add to that,

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Speaker 1: and I think I aspire to have the same sort

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Speaker 1: of control of all what I look at on social

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Speaker 1: media as you do is I'm trying really hard to

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Speaker 1: work out when to stop scrolling on social media because

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm just getting caught up in these

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Speaker 1: rabbit holes of footage. Sometimes the algorithm, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it just keeps feeding you, and it knows what

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Speaker 2: it's doing.

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Speaker 1: Definitely, and hopefully the idea of these podcasts is we

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Speaker 1: give you a limited window to try and understand a

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Speaker 1: story and then get on with your day, and we

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Speaker 1: do hope that you get on with your day wherever

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Speaker 1: you're listening to this. We'll be back again tomorrow with

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Speaker 1: hopefully some brighton news. Until then, look after yourself and

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Speaker 1: have a good day. My name is Lily Madden and

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Speaker 1: I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Calcultin woman from Gadigal country.

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Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadigal people and pays respect to

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Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torrestrate island and nations. We pay our

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Speaker 1: respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past

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Speaker 1: and present.