1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Have you ever made a vision board, like visualized your success, 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: try to manifest something into existence. It feels good right that, 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: according to the science, it might actually be working against you. Now, 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: this is part two of my conversation with behavioral scientist 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: and author of Beyond Belief, Near El And if you 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: haven't listened to part one yet, go back and start there. 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: NIA spent six years digging into exactly this why positive thinking, 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: vision boards and manifesting feels so compelling, but why the 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: research tells a very different story. Today we are going 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: to get into failure goals and how you might be 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: able to benefit from them, how leaders can use simulation 12 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: designed to shape what their teams see and do, and 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: what higher performance athletes actually visualize. And it's not the 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: finish line. Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 15 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: and strategies. 16 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: For optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 17 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: Now, before we started recording, you were asking me what 18 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: my favorite parts of the book were, and I told 19 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: you that one of my favorite strategies that's in the book. 20 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: I love it because there are so many great concepts 21 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: in the book, but it's also really practical that so 22 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: many great strategies and rituals and practices in there. 23 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: One of my. 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: Favorites is failure goals and this resonated with me because 25 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: at the moment as I was sharing with you, I'm 26 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: in that really awkward process of book writing where you 27 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: reach out to people asking for a testimonial or a 28 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: blurb as they're called in America, and I just feel 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: so awkward asking for You know what is quite a 30 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: big favor because it involves reading a book, and not 31 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: even a hard copy book. It's generally a PDF that 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: is in some kind of hopefully not too bad form, 33 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: and failure goals made me think, ah, I need to 34 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: shift my belief around that. Can you share what a 35 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: failure goal is? 36 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely so. Failure goals comes out of these different techniques 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: that we can use to increase our luck surface area 38 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: that it turns out, one of the things that surprised 39 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 2: me in this research is that luck is not chance. 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: We think that luck just happens, and that's not true. 41 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 2: That lucky people manufacture luck. And this goes back to 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: the power beliefs about how beliefs change what you see, feel, 43 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: and do. I'll give you a quick study that demonstrated this. 44 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: There was a study where they asked people who were 45 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: self identified as lucky and self identified as unlucky, and 46 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: they give them a very very simple task. They ask 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: them to look through a newspaper that they had given 48 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: them and just count the number of images in the newspaper. 49 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: That's all I have to do. Two three, just count 50 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: the number of images in the newspaper. Now, people who 51 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: were self identified as unlucky, right, they call themselves. Unlucky 52 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: people took them about two and a half minutes to 53 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: do this task and then collect their reward two and 54 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: a half minutes. Lucky people took eleven seconds. Eleven seconds. 55 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: How what happened? Turns out that on page two, as 56 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: soon as they opened the newspaper, one of those images said, 57 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: there are forty three images in this paper. Collect your reward. 58 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: And it turns out that the lucky people saw that 59 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: they saw an ad that the unlucky people on average 60 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: didn't see. And if you asked those unlucky people, why 61 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: didn't you just do what the ad told you? I 62 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: didn't see it. No clue didn't exist for me. Like 63 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: it literally shaped what they were able to see. And 64 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: this is this is the core of entrepreneurship. When an 65 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: entrepreneur sees an opportunity and says, God, this is so obvious. 66 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: Why isn't everyone else doing this? There's one hundred dollar 67 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: bills all over the floor. That's essentially what they're saying. 68 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: You're calling everyone else an idiot by saying, how do 69 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: you not see this amazing opportunity? An entrepreneur needs that 70 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: bit of what Walter Isaacson called the reality distortion feel 71 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 2: to even make this opportunity possible. And so by having 72 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: that attitude, that belief about the world, you become more lucky. 73 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 2: You see opportunities that other people don't see. And so 74 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: another opportunity is to a technique I should say, is 75 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: these failure goals. So as opposed to how most people 76 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: see reality, failure is bad. Failure should be punished, right, 77 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: don't fail. That's not how successful people see failure. Successful 78 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 2: people see failure as checking off what doesn't work. That 79 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: a failure is good, a failure should be rewarded. Best 80 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: way to illustrate this think about whatever goal is in 81 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: your way. Okay, so whatever obstacle. So if it's you 82 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 2: have a goal for closing more sales, a goal for 83 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: getting funding for your venture, a goal for making a 84 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 2: key higher, a goal to find love in your life, 85 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: whatever that goal might be. And if I told you, hey, look, 86 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: I traveled inside a time machine and I went to 87 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: the future. And I know for a fact that if 88 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 2: you fail five more times, just five more times, five 89 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: more sales calls, five more dates, five more meetings with 90 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: venture capitalists, five more the sixth to one, you're going 91 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 2: to succeed. You're going to hit it big with that 92 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: six time. What are you going to do. Are you 93 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 2: going to say, oh, well, I don't want to fail. No, no, no, 94 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: no thanks, that's too hard. No, you're gonna say, okay, quick, 95 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: let's go. I want to fail. Fail, fail, come on, 96 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 2: let's fail. That's a failure goal. So when you set 97 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: to yourself a metric for look, I know success is 98 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: going to come. I need to follow the process. And 99 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: every time I fail, Hey, I'm getting closer to my goal, 100 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: because that's what it takes as long as I'm still learning. Now, 101 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: failure without learning is a different story. But as long 102 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: as you are failing in your learning, that actually is progress. 103 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: It's not a point to quit, it's a point to celebrate. 104 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: Well, I love that I actually set a failure goal 105 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: on the weekend. Thanks to reading about that in your 106 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: Bookcau's made me much more motivated. And it reminded me 107 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,559 Speaker 1: actually of something that happened to me in my early 108 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: twenties where I was pursuing a career as in position 109 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: and I'd send out my demo to a bunch of 110 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: record labels and managers and publishers. And I remember, obviously 111 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: I hadn't read your books, It's going back quite some time, 112 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: but I'd set myself the goal that I want my 113 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: bedroom wall to be covered in rejection letters before I 114 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: would get one acceptance. And it didn't take that long. 115 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: And believe it, I had set a failure goal there, 116 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: and that was quite motivating. 117 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: Fantastic. 118 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: Now, I want to talk about the idea of designing simulations. 119 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: And in the book you talk about the idea of 120 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: leaders changing how they think about the workplace and thinking 121 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: about it as this simulation that their team is stepping 122 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: into every day. Can you talk a bit more about like, 123 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: what what does that mean practically the leaders of simulation designers. 124 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so remember how we talked earlier about how we 125 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: are creating simulations in our own heads based on our beliefs. Well, 126 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 2: when we expand that circumstance, when we go from the 127 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 2: individual to the organization, that is nothing but company culture. 128 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 2: What is company culture. It's a set of codified beliefs 129 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: that dictate how we see reality. So what gets rewarded, 130 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: what gets punished, What will help us succeed in this 131 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: enterprise is based on that company culture, which is nothing 132 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: more than a set of beliefs. When we say that 133 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: we believe that the customer is first, or that shareholders 134 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: are first, or whoever is first. When we have those 135 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: set of beliefs, those aren't facts, right, Many companies that 136 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: put customers as number one still failed. So it's not 137 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: necessarily that it's a fact that every time you put 138 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: customers first you're going to succeed. It's all kinds of 139 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,559 Speaker 2: reasons you may not succeed, but it's something we hold 140 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: on to. It's something that we believe because based on evidence, 141 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: we think it's going to help us. It's going to 142 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: be a liberating belief. It's going to increase motivation within 143 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: the company to do what we need to do to succeed. 144 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: So crafting that company culture, there's of course that documented 145 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: the codified culture that everybody sees. Then, of course there's 146 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: the practical application of do we walk the walk? Do 147 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: we actually do what we believe is that part of 148 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: the company culture, and that flows downhill. That you know, 149 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: water flows downhill and culture flows downhill. So when people 150 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: see what management does, what does the big boss do 151 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: to what do they not only say, but what do 152 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: they actually do? That is the manifestation of these beliefs. 153 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: And so it's not something that we can take lightly. 154 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: That we need to design that simulation appropriately every single 155 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: day because it literally shapes what the people in our 156 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: organization do, not only that, it shapes what the products 157 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: do for our customers. So I wonder ifill illustration of 158 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: this has to do with how our expectations of a 159 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 2: product can shape the actual experience. So when we talk 160 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: about the three powers of belief, the power to change 161 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: what we see, feel, and do, many times we think, Okay, 162 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: I manufacture this coffee mug, and the coffee mug is 163 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: a coffe mugg. It is what it is. No, it's not, 164 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: it's what you expect it to be. It's what you 165 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 2: expect that experience to endow you with. That turns out 166 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: to have a profound effect. So, for example, we know 167 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: that when golfers were given a putter that they were 168 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: told was used by a famous golfer, a very successful golfer, 169 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: Tiger Woods or somebody, I don't know who, they told 170 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: them they did better, their golf skills magically improved. We 171 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: know that when you are told they did a beautiful 172 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: study where they put people in an fMRI machine and 173 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 2: they gave them a little tube inside their mouth that 174 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: gave them a sample of wine. And they told these people, hey, 175 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 2: this wine is five dollars a bottle. Okay, five dollars 176 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: bottle of wine. What do you think of it? And 177 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 2: they would describe it as you know, okay, it's all right, 178 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: it's a little harsh on the thinish, et cetera, et cetera. 179 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: And they would see in their brain what was happening 180 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 2: because they were in this fMRI machine at the time. 181 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: Then they said, okay, we're gonna give us a second 182 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: sample of wine. This is a very expensive bottle of wine. Okay, 183 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: now sample the wine. What do you think of this wine? Oh, 184 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: it's very nice. I like it. It's it has a 185 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: hint of oak and cherry, and you know all this 186 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: stuff that win snobs say, and it turns out not 187 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 2: only do these people express that the wine was better, 188 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: they could actually see in their brains that the more 189 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: expensive wine was processed differently. Now, of course the trick here, 190 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: you know, there's a trick. He was the same wine. 191 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: They give them the exact same wine two different times. 192 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: All they changed was what they told them about the 193 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: price of the wine. Now, how does this apply to 194 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: us in business? Like price, we set expectations through beliefs, 195 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: So whatever we anticipate will happen to some degree that 196 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: is actually what happens. And so what is advertising? We 197 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: think advertising is about promoting our brand, is about telling people, 198 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: is about increasing awareness. Okay, yes, but that's not the 199 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: main goal. If you think about you know, why does 200 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: Coca Cola spend so much money on advertising? We all 201 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: know Coca Cola. Who doesn't know Coca Cola. They can't 202 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: increase brand awareness anymore, we all know it already. Why 203 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: do they do that? They spend all that money on 204 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 2: brand awareness because they're trying to change your experience. So 205 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: when you have an image in your mind of refreshing 206 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 2: and delicious and whatever, they can change that actual experience, 207 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: just like that wine study that showed that, hey, if 208 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: we just tell you with more expensive, you're actually going 209 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: to enjoy it even though it's the same bottle line. 210 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 2: The same goes with our advertising, so company culture, branding, advertising. 211 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: All of these things go back to the power belief 212 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: and how our beliefs really do shape our perception of reality. 213 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: We've been talking about beliefs at an individual level so far, 214 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: but after the break Neia looks at how beliefs play 215 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: out at work, in leadership, and in the goals we 216 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: set ourselves. Coming up, Nia gets into why the way 217 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: you frame something to your team matters just as much 218 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: as the thing itself, how to walk into a situation 219 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: you're already dreading and flip it around, and why positive 220 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: thinking might actually be working against you. If you're looking 221 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way you work, can Live. 222 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've 223 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up 224 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. 225 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: You shared a really interesting anecdote on this topic around 226 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: leaders that had applied some of the concepts from your 227 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: last book indiestractable and how they framed those concept impacted 228 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: the results. Can you share, like the different types of 229 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: framing that you saw laters. 230 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: Do and what happened. Yeah, that with Indiestractable, with my 231 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 2: second book, which is a book about how to fight 232 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 2: distraction and be more productive. When leaders would sell my 233 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: workshop to their staff as, hey, we're going to do 234 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: a personal productivity workshop versus we're going to show you 235 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 2: how to gain control over your attention, and just that 236 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: simple reframe of empowering versus teaching and lecturing huge impact. 237 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: Right That people felt much more agency and control and 238 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 2: actually did better in terms of implementing these techniques based 239 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 2: on the framing. And so it's not something to be 240 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 2: glossed over. It's not, Hey, the product is what the 241 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: product is. No, the anticipation of what the product will 242 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 2: do for you and how we frame that is incredibly important. 243 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: Now, something I am doing next week, which I've to 244 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: sum myself up to is going to a networking event, 245 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: so like an industry thing for organizational psychologists. I don't 246 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: think I'm going to know anyone, and I hate networking events, 247 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: as I think most people do, but I thought this 248 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: would be good for me to go along too. Can 249 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: you tell me how I can apply this idea of 250 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: simulation design and changing my beliefs to set me up 251 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: for success. 252 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: Sure. So if you walk in saying I hate it, 253 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 2: you will because again, with this expectation loop, it starts 254 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 2: with a belief. That belief is based on an anticipatory 255 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 2: response what you expect to happen. That anticipatory response is 256 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: turning into a feeling, and then is reinforced with confirmation. 257 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: So it's believe, anticipate, feel confirmed. That's this loop. And 258 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: this is exactly what happens with the products we use. 259 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: It's exactly what happens with every experience that we partake in. 260 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: So if you believe that you're not going to like 261 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: this experience, that is what your brain anticipates. That is 262 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: then what you feel because you pay attention to, hey, 263 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: this is what's happening. Oh you see that sucks and 264 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: this isn't very good and I don't like this, and 265 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: then of course you confirm it by what you just did. 266 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: I hate networking, So now you reinforce the very belief. 267 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 2: Now I don't blame you, I'm the exact same way. 268 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: That's why I wrote this book we are exactly got 269 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: from the same exact cloth. So instead, what you're gonna 270 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: do is you're going to try and do this in reverse. 271 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: You're not going to look for why you hate networking, 272 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: but rather you're going to find You're going to walk 273 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: in and say, I'm going to find three things I 274 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: liked about this event tonight, Like literally walk in saying, 275 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to intentionally look for three things that I 276 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: like about this event. It can be hey, the food 277 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: was pretty good, or I met one person I really liked, 278 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: or the music was nice, and it doesn't matter. You're 279 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: going to intentionally look for You're going to anticipate something good. 280 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: Then you're going to note that sensation. You're going to 281 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: feel that thing inside you, whether it's hey, you know what, 282 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: I met that really nice person and that made me 283 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: feel good and I hope we stay in touch. And 284 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: then you're gonna confirm it. You're going to say it 285 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: to somebody else, you know, maybe write it down for 286 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: yourself and say it to somebody else about a couple 287 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: things that you really liked about that circumstance. And of 288 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: course what's going to happen is over time, your brain 289 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: is going to see more of that. So you can 290 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: use that believe, anticipate, feel confirm loop to change these 291 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: beliefs overtime, and what you will find is that you'll 292 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: like it more over time. I mean, I'll give you 293 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: a personal example. My business today is public speaking, right, 294 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: so that's how I make most of my livelihood, is 295 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: public speaking. And yet when I first got started, I 296 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: had terrible stage fright, terrible stage fright, and I would 297 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: constantly tell myself whenever I would feel these physiological sensations 298 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: of dry mouth before I would get on stage and 299 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: sweaty armpits and my heart was palpitating, I would tell myself, 300 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 2: I'm no good at this. I hate public speaking. If 301 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: I was any good at this, then I wouldn't feel 302 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: these things. A professional doesn't feel these things. And so 303 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: I kept looking for what I believe to be true 304 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 2: that when I felt these signals, these physiological signals, ah, 305 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: you see, that means I'm not good at this and 306 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: why I hate it, and that I would keep going 307 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: down that believe, anticipate, feel confirmed loop. How do I 308 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: change it? I started believing something different about the same 309 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: exact physiological reactions. Okay, that I started interpreting them differently, 310 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: so I still get those heart palpitations even talking to 311 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: you right now, right, I'm quote unquote nervous. My heart 312 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: is beating, and I still have the sweaty armpits. I 313 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: still have the same exact physiological sensations. That didn't change. 314 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 2: What change is my interpretation. So now when I feel 315 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: my heart beating, I don't say, oh, I'm getting nervous 316 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: and I'm going to mess up and this is going 317 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 2: to be terrible. And why do I feel this? I 318 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: wish I wouldn't. No, I reduce my suffering by reinterpreting 319 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: the same exact physiological signals. So now when my heart 320 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: is beating, I have a different story. The story is, oh, 321 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 2: my heart is beating quickly so that I can get 322 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: more oxygen to my brain so I can deliver my 323 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: best possible performance. And now I anticipate something different. Right, 324 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: my belief changed. I anticipate something different, I feel something different. 325 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 2: I actually do feel now I'm excited. Hey, my heart's 326 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: beating quick that's excitement. That's not nervousness. That's excitement. And 327 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: now I confirm it by hey, you know what I 328 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: did pretty well? And let me note back with that 329 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 2: reality journal of Hey, you know, maybe I did wasn't perfect, 330 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: but it was a lot better. 331 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: I love that. Now I want to talk about visualization 332 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: because so many so called gurus say, just like, visualize 333 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: the thing and it will come true, or you can 334 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: manifest your way to success, and you know, the evidence 335 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: is kind of limited. Tell me why does positive thinking 336 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: and visualization actually backfire according to science? 337 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 2: Right, that is exactly right, that there is a negative 338 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: side to positive thinking, and that is that most people 339 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 2: who espouse these techniques haven't actually looked at the research 340 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,479 Speaker 2: literature that in fact, we know that when you visualize something, 341 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: and that's all you do is you visualize the end goal. 342 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 2: For example, when you think about manifesting, when you think 343 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 2: about vision boards, right, very popular exercise, when you're visualizing 344 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: the end goal, it actually is counterproductive and studies have 345 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: found this. Gabrielle Otigen did several studies like this where 346 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 2: she took people, she brought them into a lab and 347 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 2: she asked them to visualize what they want to manifest, 348 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: to think about the future reality that they want to 349 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: bring to themselves. And while they were doing this, she 350 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: connected them to blood pressure monitors and she found that 351 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 2: when people were visualizing the outcome of their success, I 352 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: want the beach body, I want to make lots of money, 353 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: I want the to find love in my life. When 354 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 2: they were visualizing what they wanted as the end goal, 355 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 2: their blood pressure dropped, and when she monitored their progress 356 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: over time after they had left the lab, they became 357 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 2: less likely to achieve their goals less likely. Why is that, 358 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 2: We think it's because this exercise of visualizing a future 359 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: outcome makes you more relaxed and therefore tells the brain 360 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 2: you've already accomplished the reward. You already have it, so 361 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 2: to speak. If you can imagine it, you experience in 362 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: a way, and you become less motivated to actually go 363 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 2: out there and do it. Why does that happen. That happens, 364 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 2: we think because you're not preparing yourself for the inevitable 365 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 2: difficulty of achieving that goal. When people say, well, yeah, 366 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: but athletes do this, right, athletes visualize all kinds of things. 367 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: What are athletes visualizing? It is true, athletes do visualize. 368 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 2: How do they visualize? What are they visualizing? They are 369 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 2: not visualizing. Talk to any performance high performance athlete. They're 370 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: not visualizing. Here, I am standing up at the Olympics 371 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: with my gold medal. Here I am holding up the trophy. 372 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: That's not what they're visualizing. What they're visualizing are the 373 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 2: obstacles in their way. That's the big difference. That's what 374 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: people don't tell you. With this manifesting and vision boarding 375 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: and positive thinking, it's not about the positive energy in 376 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 2: the vibes. It's about understanding what you will do when 377 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: there's an inevitable barrier in your way, when there's some 378 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: kind of difficulty. So what is an athlete visualize? They visualize, Hey, 379 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 2: I'm on offense, and when defense comes at me, here's 380 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: what I'm gonna do. I'm skiing down the mountain, and 381 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: here's what it's going to do when it gets really tricky. 382 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 2: That's what they're visualizing. So for us, in our everyday goals, 383 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: what we have to do is not visualize the ending. 384 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 2: It's getting comfortable with the discomfort. We're inevitably going to fail. 385 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: So when we inevitably fail and get off go off track. 386 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 2: So for me, for example, I used to be clinically obese. 387 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 2: Today i'm forty eight. I'm in the best shape of 388 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 2: my life. But it's not because of genetics, or because 389 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: I like fitness not at all. I still don't like 390 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 2: exercise per se, but I've changed my mindset around these things. 391 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: I've changed my beliefs, and I prepare myself not with 392 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 2: the final outcome. I don't die it well, I don't 393 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 2: live a healthy lifestyle just because I'm thinking about, Oh, 394 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: I want to go to the beach and take off 395 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: my shirt. You know, like, that's not what I'm talking about. Rather, 396 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 2: I visualize what will I do when I go to 397 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: a dinner party and someone offers me a chocolate cake 398 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: or a glass of wine that I know is not 399 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 2: healthy for me? What will I do with the discomfort 400 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: I'm feeling in that moment. That's the right thing to visualize, 401 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 2: and changing our beliefs around that discomfort, seeing it as 402 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: an asset again, changing what we anticipate will happen when 403 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: we feel that invariable discomfort, and knowing how to deal 404 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 2: with it. That's the right way to utilize positive thinking 405 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: and imaging and what's called mental contrasting. You're contrasting the 406 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 2: future reality with what's in your way to getting that reality. 407 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: I love that, Neil. I could just keep talking to 408 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: you for hours, but I need to be respectful of 409 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: your time. Thank you so much for coming back on 410 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: how I work. I just I absolutely love our chats. 411 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: I love your work. There's so much more I wanted 412 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: to talk about that listeners are just going to have 413 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: to go out and buy your brilliant book, Beyond Belief. Ni, 414 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: thank you for putting such great work into the world. 415 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: I appreciate. It's an honor to be back on your show. 416 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: It's I appreciate you calling me back, and thank you 417 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 2: so much for digesting the book. I'm very honored. Thank you. 418 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: One thing I took from this chat with Nia is 419 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: that visualizing the finish line of a big project online 420 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: stone feels really productive. But what nearest research shows is 421 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: that athletes who actually get there aren't picturing the trophy. 422 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: They're picturing the moment that things get hard and exactly 423 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: what they'll do when that happens. So when things get hard, 424 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: and they will, what am I going to do? That 425 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: is the question worth sitting with, in my opinion, and 426 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: Nia's brand new book, Beyond Belief, is out now, and honestly, 427 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: both parts of this conversation have only scratched the surface 428 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: of what's in it. There are links to the book 429 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: and Part one in the show notes, and hit follow 430 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: so you don't miss what's coming next week on How 431 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: I Work. If you like today's show, make sure you 432 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted when 433 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on the 434 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of the Cooler Nation.