Speaker 1: This episode was recorded on cameragle Land.
Speaker 2: Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life.
Speaker 2: I'm Cant, I'm Laura, and I'm Keisha.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: Over the last couple of months, we have had lots
Speaker 2: of conversations around communication. We did an episode on super
Speaker 2: communication recently, and I would say our response to ninety
Speaker 2: nine point nine percent of your ask guncut questions that
Speaker 2: come in is that you have to communicate, which can
Speaker 2: sound really arbitrary if you don't.
Speaker 1: Know how to do it well.
Speaker 2: And I think the unfortunate thing is is that so
Speaker 2: many of us think that we're very good at communicating
Speaker 2: and it's always the other person's fault or maybe that's
Speaker 2: just me in my relationshipships, but no, honestly, I think
Speaker 2: it's something that we are often told we need to
Speaker 2: be skilled at, but are not necessarily given the skills
Speaker 2: to improve it. And what does make someone an excellent
Speaker 2: communicator versus someone who really struggles with either getting a
Speaker 2: story across, saying sorry, being defensive? And these are things
Speaker 2: that you can apply to everyday aspects of your life,
Speaker 2: whether it be work, but it's also something that really
Speaker 2: shows up obviously in relationships and can become a real
Speaker 2: pinch point with the people who you love the most.
Speaker 2: So today's conversation. Now bear with me because this might
Speaker 2: sound a little bit left of field. We're speaking to
Speaker 2: Jefferson Fisher. He's a trial lawyer who you might know
Speaker 2: is the guy who records videos from his car all
Speaker 2: about how to communicate during life's everyday, very awkward situations
Speaker 2: and arguments. Now, Jefferson's amassed a huge following. It's five
Speaker 2: point eight million followers online. He's got a book out
Speaker 2: titled The Next Conversation, and it's his tried and true
Speaker 2: strategies to deal with difficult people and tough situations. This
Speaker 2: is also something which I think so many of us
Speaker 2: can put into practice in terms around how to feel
Speaker 2: and sound more confident when we are communicating, but also
Speaker 2: other strategies like how to use silence as a tool,
Speaker 2: and also how to respond to someone when you are
Speaker 2: in a situation where what they have said has been
Speaker 2: incredibly hurtful or you are in the midst of conflict,
Speaker 2: but how to deal with it better. Jefferson, welcome to
Speaker 2: the podcast.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome.
Speaker 2: We just kind of put you on the spot and
Speaker 2: asked you what your actually unfiltered story was, and you
Speaker 2: looked kind of scared and blank for a second.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we.
Speaker 2: Do start every episode the same way, and that is
Speaker 2: with your most embarrassing story and something happened to you
Speaker 2: when you're a kid.
Speaker 1: Just still dealing with the trauma.
Speaker 3: Yeah, still dealing with the trauma of it. So when
Speaker 3: I was in third grade, so I was maybe seven eight,
Speaker 3: I was on the top of the bleachers at my
Speaker 3: little elementary's Christmas program, and I was one of the
Speaker 3: tallest kids, and I had big, huge glasses, like big,
Speaker 3: big classes. Even one of my nosepads had broken off,
Speaker 3: so I had to get like a piece of tape.
Speaker 3: Like it was kind of Harry Potter esque of me
Speaker 3: just having holding these things together. And we might have
Speaker 3: been in the song, probably a way in the Manger
Speaker 3: or something worth as like some with Reindeer, and I
Speaker 3: had locked my knees. I didn't know that you shouldn't
Speaker 3: lock your knees, And all of a sudden, I'm standing
Speaker 3: up here singing and my breath got real heavy, and
Speaker 3: I could tell something was wrong. All of a sudden,
Speaker 3: I felt really sad. I felt was not gone right,
Speaker 3: and I was looking around, like is anybody else heeling
Speaker 3: this way? And before I knew it, everything went black
Speaker 3: and I fell forward and in the middle of this
Speaker 3: Christmas program, I just knocked down all the kids. Like
Speaker 3: it was just a yeah, yeah, like if you've seen
Speaker 3: like Home Alone, where somebody falls and they're on at
Speaker 3: a program and we just every all the kids just
Speaker 3: went in a line, and so they had to stop
Speaker 3: the program of course, and like carry me off.
Speaker 2: I don't think you're the first person who's had a
Speaker 2: similar story to this. I'm like having vague recollections now
Speaker 2: of a very like old accill filtered of someone who
Speaker 2: may passed out during choir.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that this is common. I think this happens.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's to do with like being up at a
Speaker 2: height and having to sing horrible hymns and the anxiety
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it was. No, you're not supposed to lock
Speaker 3: your knees, Like when you lock your knees you keep
Speaker 3: a blood from flowing, and really yeah, yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 3: that's that's what it was. At least that's what I
Speaker 3: was told my whole life, and I just have at
Speaker 3: least that that it wasn't my anxiety. It was me
Speaker 3: locking my knees. I'm telling myself that that's what we're
Speaker 3: going with.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you're the experts, so we're here to
Speaker 2: believe everything you say. Any Okay, Like you could tell
Speaker 2: me anything right now and I'll say yes, perfect, because.
Speaker 4: You're really told the pressure is different up there.
Speaker 3: That's true. Yeah, different altitude.
Speaker 1: Jefferson.
Speaker 4: When I went through the first part of your book,
Speaker 4: I got the impression you felt as though your destiny
Speaker 4: was kind of written for you by the people in
Speaker 4: your family and the fact that they had all kind
Speaker 4: of followed in this same same path. And I was
Speaker 4: curious about whether it was a passion that was kind
Speaker 4: of bred into you to become Iyer or whether it
Speaker 4: was something that you kind of you just thought, well,
Speaker 4: I've got to follow in the family footsteps.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I never felt like it was a requirement. I
Speaker 3: never felt like it was an obligation. It was something
Speaker 3: I was excited about. Now, I will tell you of
Speaker 3: my like line in my family, of my generation, I'm
Speaker 3: the only attorney, and there's not another attorney beneath me either.
Speaker 3: I just had a really unique experience where I got
Speaker 3: to see a lot of that, and it felt as
Speaker 3: if like, no, this is what I'm supposed to do,
Speaker 3: and that felt like a calling. That certainly felt like
Speaker 3: there's my purpose. But I mean I had the freedom
Speaker 3: to go do whatever I wanted to do. I went
Speaker 3: to business school at the University of Texas here and
Speaker 3: then when I got to law school, law school felt
Speaker 3: way easier than college for me. It's just naturally, maybe
Speaker 3: through osmosis, I just I absorbed a lot more of
Speaker 3: that information. It just felt natural to me.
Speaker 2: I mean, something else that's obviously seems to be something
Speaker 2: that's come natural to you, is this idea in the
Speaker 2: art of communication.
Speaker 1: It's the art of storytelling.
Speaker 2: Can you talk to me about how you found that
Speaker 2: being a very good storyteller has linked into what you're
Speaker 2: doing for an occupation, and how you finessed that skill
Speaker 2: over the years.
Speaker 3: Well, one, I grew up hearing a lot of wonderful
Speaker 3: communicators and storytellers. Any trial attorney, they're storytellers. And to
Speaker 3: be able to advocate for your client, you have to
Speaker 3: tell and weave a story for the jury or the judge,
Speaker 3: and so you have to be able to present facts
Speaker 3: in a way that are persuasive, that are captivating, that
Speaker 3: are not boring, And most of all, you have to
Speaker 3: find a way to take a lot of information and
Speaker 3: synthesize it down. So you might have boxes and boxes
Speaker 3: and boxes of information, but you can't just show a
Speaker 3: jury to say, hey, read every page of this. You
Speaker 3: have to find captivating ways to describe it, tell them
Speaker 3: why it's important. So a lot of my job is
Speaker 3: because I take like a book and I have to
Speaker 3: turn it into two sentences. So I have to find
Speaker 3: ways to synthesize and shorten information that it's very memorable,
Speaker 3: that it's bite size, and it feels like, Okay, I
Speaker 3: got this. I grew up watching storytellers the way that
Speaker 3: they can begin a sentence through everything in between your
Speaker 3: absolutely captivated, biting. You get taken on this journey. And
Speaker 3: we love stories as humans, we love a good story.
Speaker 3: It wasn't until I started sharing a lot of them
Speaker 3: and teaching my clients after I became an attorney, where
Speaker 3: I would see how they were responding into situations, and
Speaker 3: so I take a break and go, hey, the next
Speaker 3: time they say that, say this, And then they would
Speaker 3: and it turned out way different. Or I'd say, hey,
Speaker 3: the next time this happens, don't respond, Just wait about
Speaker 3: ten seconds and all of a sudden it will work
Speaker 3: and have a totally different outcome. And I began to go, Okay,
Speaker 3: there's something to this of me helping my clients, and
Speaker 3: that's what helped a lot of my business and as
Speaker 3: a trial attorney grow really well.
Speaker 4: Have you ever in practice, whether it be for your
Speaker 4: own client or maybe you've just heard a story of
Speaker 4: someone else is in court where you've thought that if
Speaker 4: they were better at storytelling, the outcome or the verdict
Speaker 4: I suppose could have been very, very different, you know,
Speaker 4: like where the facts were potentially actually quite solid, but
Speaker 4: it was their storytelling that ended up letting them down.
Speaker 3: Yes, the truth will only come out as much as
Speaker 3: you advocate for it. So I could have all the
Speaker 3: right facts in a case that if I can't persuasively
Speaker 3: tell you those facts, it won't matter. So you might
Speaker 3: have an attorney who is not a good communicator, who's
Speaker 3: not good at telling stories to the jury because you're
Speaker 3: almost compelled to. They have something called opening argument, where
Speaker 3: you're going to tell the jury what this case is about,
Speaker 3: and what all your evidence is going to show, and
Speaker 3: why you should find for their client. If you can't
Speaker 3: do that persuasively, you're going to lose because they don't
Speaker 3: know where you're going. They don't know why your facts matter.
Speaker 3: They don't know why your evidence matters. So you have
Speaker 3: to present it in a way that's going to be effective.
Speaker 3: I've absolutely seen it where my facts were not nearly
Speaker 3: as good as the other attorney and we still had
Speaker 3: a wonderful result for the client because we just communicated
Speaker 3: what we needed better than the other person. Some people
Speaker 3: on the other side, their whole purpose is to beat
Speaker 3: you up. That's not the purpose because they have it wrong.
Speaker 3: The jury doesn't care about that. The jury is your audience,
Speaker 3: so it's always the question of who's your audience, who's
Speaker 3: the decision maker, that's who you need to talk to.
Speaker 2: I find it very interesting, like the association between what
Speaker 2: you do for work, but also like this is what
Speaker 2: we do in relationships when we're having an argument, Like
Speaker 2: we're trying to win an argument, we're trying to get
Speaker 2: our point across, but sometimes we're not really listening to
Speaker 2: what's being said back to us.
Speaker 1: I'm in the.
Speaker 2: Depths of it with my partner right now, So this
Speaker 2: feels very close to home. But when it comes to communicating,
Speaker 2: when there is conflict or there is a disagreement around something,
Speaker 2: how do you know the difference between when you're arguing
Speaker 2: to win or when you're having a conversation to win
Speaker 2: something versus having a conversation to come to resolution.
Speaker 3: Who you're saying it for. Are you saying it for
Speaker 3: yourself so you can hear it and then to go, oh,
Speaker 3: that sounded good. Are you saying it for the other
Speaker 3: person to help them understand a little bit more. What
Speaker 3: we mostly do in arguments is we try to us intelligent,
Speaker 3: smart people, quick witted. We want to come up with
Speaker 3: the zinger, like we want to have the gotcha moment
Speaker 3: where we pull together this poetic response that's just going
Speaker 3: to bury them once and for all in conversation, and
Speaker 3: that never happens. Like you say, the hard thing that
Speaker 3: you think is going to win. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry,
Speaker 3: this is it's all me.
Speaker 1: This is no, it's true. I mean this is a
Speaker 1: hard truth. I'm swallowing.
Speaker 3: Ye. Yeah. You you go into it wanting to win.
Speaker 3: And what I teach is you need to have something
Speaker 3: to learn, not something to prove. And when you try
Speaker 3: to always win the argument. All you're doing is like
Speaker 3: what we talked about as the bad trial attorney. You're
Speaker 3: just beating up the other side. You're not trying to
Speaker 3: convince and persuade and give your point clearly so that
Speaker 3: others can understand it. It's easy to get stuck in
Speaker 3: this echo chamber where you're just saying it. To say it,
Speaker 3: like you've heard probably in friends, they go, I just
Speaker 3: have to say, like, Nay, don't, No, you really don't.
Speaker 3: You're just saying it so that everybody goes, you are
Speaker 3: so smart, like that is. That's why you're saying it.
Speaker 3: You're not saying it for the aid the conversation. You're
Speaker 3: saying for yourself gratification. You're listening to respond. And it
Speaker 3: is an easy way to just slowly lose the relationship.
Speaker 3: If you only see arguments as something to win, you
Speaker 3: will lose the relationship every time. That's why I write
Speaker 3: my book never win an argument. It's only going to
Speaker 3: hurt you and hurt your credibility and most importantly, hurt
Speaker 3: the connection with the other person.
Speaker 1: What does winning an argument look like to you?
Speaker 3: Winning means I said that one thing that went too far.
Speaker 3: That's what typically happens. You and I are in an argument,
Speaker 3: let's say, and we're getting escalated. I am going to
Speaker 3: get frustrated that you're not receiving my point. You're gonna
Speaker 3: get frustrated that I'm not receiving your point, And eventually
Speaker 3: somebody will say something that's hurtful, crosses the line that's
Speaker 3: below the belt, that puts the other person down to
Speaker 3: the other person wants out of it. They want to leave,
Speaker 3: they want to hang up the phone, they want to
Speaker 3: leave the room. It's just the fight or flight in
Speaker 3: real time and micromoments there in that conversation, you're either
Speaker 3: wanting to say a hurtful word, say a cutting word,
Speaker 3: or you're wanting to leave the conversation. Eventually that happens,
Speaker 3: and whoever is left there standing most of the time
Speaker 3: is self proclaimed the winner. Oh you left, Oh, I
Speaker 3: guess you don't want to be in this conversation, But
Speaker 3: you're the one that said the hurtful thing that maybe
Speaker 3: want to leave in the first place. That is most
Speaker 3: of the time what we see as a win, because
Speaker 3: if it's truly I want to understand your point and
Speaker 3: I want to understand my point, there's no sense of win.
Speaker 3: It's a sense of understanding and connection and acknowledgement. You're
Speaker 3: not trying to get that hit of going oh, yes,
Speaker 3: I got it. That was such a good zinger. That
Speaker 3: felt so good. I really told them off. That moment
Speaker 3: doesn't last.
Speaker 4: Very long when we're in these conflicts, Like as much
Speaker 4: of the research that we have done, as many of
Speaker 4: these kind of conversations that I have, and I'm able
Speaker 4: to objectively say, Okay, this is what I should do
Speaker 4: in an argument, this is the better way for me
Speaker 4: to converse with my partner if we're having conflict and
Speaker 4: that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: When you're in.
Speaker 4: It, it can feel so hard to park your emotions.
Speaker 4: And I think a little bit of it is ego
Speaker 4: as well, parking your ego, parking the emotions, because you
Speaker 4: can just be so enraged with the fact that you
Speaker 4: know what you have to say in your perspective is
Speaker 4: the right perspective, and you just want them to listen
Speaker 4: to you. Yeah, what are some of your tips on
Speaker 4: toning down that emotion, or like, what are some of
Speaker 4: the practical things that we can do in that moment
Speaker 4: to change the trajectory of the conflict.
Speaker 3: Number one is your breath. Let your breath be the
Speaker 3: first word that you say. If you just all you're
Speaker 3: thinking of what is what you're going to say next,
Speaker 3: that means you weren't listening to them. You weren't listening
Speaker 3: to understand. You were simply listening for your time at
Speaker 3: bat for you to get to swing at them and
Speaker 3: say that a hurtful thing or something that's going to
Speaker 3: be cutting to them. But when you use your breath,
Speaker 3: it allows you to keep that logical side, that analytical
Speaker 3: side in and you don't get emotionally flooded, because that's
Speaker 3: what really happens. You say something we find have that
Speaker 3: difficult miscommunication, and all of a sudden I need to
Speaker 3: beat you down. All you're doing is just pushing them
Speaker 3: away because that's what you want to do, really without
Speaker 3: you thinking of it. Two aside from your breath, it's
Speaker 3: slowing your words down. If I speed up my words
Speaker 3: really fast, it's going to create more anxiety and it's
Speaker 3: gonna be hard to hear. Like if you were to
Speaker 3: play this podcast on three times to speed, it's gonna
Speaker 3: be hard to catch things. It's gonna get kind of
Speaker 3: anxious of like wait, what EDA miss? What I do versus.
Speaker 3: When you slow things down, you get to become intentional
Speaker 3: and you get to become methodical. I'm showing you that
Speaker 3: I'm not being pushed around in any conversation. I'm taking
Speaker 3: my time. I'm the one, not you, that controls the
Speaker 3: pace of this conversation. So just because you said something
Speaker 3: does not mean I have to respond. I'm in complete
Speaker 3: control of whether I say anything or I just let
Speaker 3: what you said and go by and I don't have
Speaker 3: to say anything to it. Three, it's adding distance between
Speaker 3: what they said and how you respond. So anytime when
Speaker 3: somebody sent you that rapid text or a text that
Speaker 3: you don't like, problems happen when you just reply immediately.
Speaker 3: You're not thinking about it. Your motions are right there
Speaker 3: at the forefront. You're not giving your breath enough time
Speaker 3: to calm you down and calm your nervous system down
Speaker 3: and get out of that ignition mode. Like anytime you
Speaker 3: respond to something the next day, you really don't care
Speaker 3: about it as much as you did the day before
Speaker 3: or maybe the week after. You're like, this wasn't even
Speaker 3: that big of a deal, but yet at that moment,
Speaker 3: it really was. So when you add distance and even
Speaker 3: if it says, hey, you and I are in a
Speaker 3: hard conversation. If I say, I can tell I'm getting
Speaker 3: really upset right now, I like to continue this conversation
Speaker 3: and this afternoon. That right there is emotionally intelligent, that
Speaker 3: right there says I'm going to make sure I stay
Speaker 3: in control the whole time.
Speaker 2: I find this very very interesting, cause I think the
Speaker 2: problem is is like when you come into conflict, usually
Speaker 2: it's both people are not showing up at one hundred percent, Like,
Speaker 2: no one person is completely at fault. Often it's both
Speaker 2: people are mutually not communicating in a way that's conducive
Speaker 2: to a healthy relationship. But sometimes there are instances where
Speaker 2: you might be getting gas lit, you might be being lied to,
Speaker 2: Like there are times where one person technically is at fault,
Speaker 2: and that's where the conflict has arisen from. What are
Speaker 2: your tips when you are in a situation where you
Speaker 2: know the person you're speaking to is lying to you,
Speaker 2: or you know that the person you're speaking to is
Speaker 2: trying to manipulate what you're saying or what you're doing.
Speaker 3: The biggest key anytimes, some my lyned here trying to
Speaker 3: manipulate you is to begin going with what they're saying
Speaker 3: and starting to confront it every single step of the
Speaker 3: way instead of letting them kind of manipulate them. Omseelves
Speaker 3: in their own circle. So we kind of become the cat,
Speaker 3: and they have the laser pointer where they bring up
Speaker 3: a story. Let's say you and I are fighting over
Speaker 3: what happened last night at dinner and you go, that's
Speaker 3: not what happened. I go, yes, yes it did, and
Speaker 3: I have to construct the whole narrative again to make
Speaker 3: it sound like it's me. Like you've been with those
Speaker 3: people that are like, don't you remember you said this
Speaker 3: and then I said this, and they're trying to twist
Speaker 3: it every single step of the way. One thing to
Speaker 3: do when somebody is lying to you is a lot
Speaker 3: of silence. There's the reason why Number one, Like we said,
Speaker 3: it controls your nervous system. You stay with your mind
Speaker 3: at the forefront. More importantly, it makes the liar nervous
Speaker 3: because they see you're not going with them, you're not
Speaker 3: the cat, and they have the laser pointer. You're not
Speaker 3: leaving and trying to say that's not what happened, No,
Speaker 3: that's not what happen and trying to correct every single
Speaker 3: lie that they are intentionally trying to manipulate and put
Speaker 3: in your way. Instead, you're just giving that silence. What
Speaker 3: a lot of times liars do. I see this a
Speaker 3: lot in my own experience as a trial attorney, because
Speaker 3: there's a lot of people who lie on the oath
Speaker 3: or in a deposition. Is when you stay quiet, they
Speaker 3: start to talk to themselves in their own head and
Speaker 3: it starts to driving crazy, and so they they will
Speaker 3: start to talk out loud of like I mean, I
Speaker 3: wouldn't do that. Why would I do that? I mean,
Speaker 3: that's that's crazy. Why would I? And they start to
Speaker 3: kind of convince themselves out loud or they kind of
Speaker 3: start walking back a little bit. So if I were
Speaker 3: to ask a witness, you know, did you see the
Speaker 3: red car and they say no, no, I never saw
Speaker 3: the red car, and I just let that slide, They're
Speaker 3: gonna get nervous because they're in a lie. They might say, well,
Speaker 3: I mean I might have saw it. I don't know.
Speaker 3: And then if I give them an out to say
Speaker 3: it's I mean, it's okay if you did see the
Speaker 3: right car, then they're like, I mean, yeah, I think
Speaker 3: I did. I did see it I do. Like with
Speaker 3: my son, my son, I like, brush his teeth.
Speaker 1: How old is your son?
Speaker 3: Seven? I have a five year old and a seven
Speaker 3: year old, a seven year old son, five year old daughter.
Speaker 3: I'll be like, did you brush your teeth? He'll be
Speaker 3: like yeah, oh yeah, and I'll look at them and go,
Speaker 3: you brush your teeth? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, brush my teeth.
Speaker 3: And then I'll just give it some silence and I'll go,
Speaker 3: it's okay. If you didn't brush your teeth, you can
Speaker 3: you can go brush them right now. Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: go brush my teeth. Like that's like big right there.
Speaker 3: It's like you have to give them the it's okay
Speaker 3: if you did, It's okay if you did, yeah, because
Speaker 3: that's what they're really looking for. That's why they're lying
Speaker 3: because they don't feel like they're going to be accepted
Speaker 3: in that moment. Depends what you're talking about, of course,
Speaker 3: but in that moment, they're lying because they don't feel
Speaker 3: like you're going to be receptive of who they are
Speaker 3: in that moment. So if you say it's okay, it's
Speaker 3: okay if you did, like we can continue to talk
Speaker 3: about this.
Speaker 2: It's a tricky one, because the example you're using is
Speaker 2: like people are lying because they don't want to be
Speaker 2: in trouble, they don't want to be wrong, they don't
Speaker 2: want to disappoint you. But then you also have people
Speaker 2: who lie because they're trying to act deceive you. Would
Speaker 2: you say that the technique is the same regardless. They
Speaker 2: also find it interesting when kids get to the age
Speaker 2: that they can lie.
Speaker 1: My kids are five and they've just figured it out
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they love it.
Speaker 1: They love thing to try and navigate.
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Yeah, they love to lie.
Speaker 1: But that's so bad at it, that's the problem.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let me tell you what. Mine is very
Speaker 3: good at it. He's very good at it. But no,
Speaker 3: the method is not the same when somebody's intentionally trying
Speaker 3: to hurt you deceive you. A phrase that I like
Speaker 3: to teach all of my people is that use the
Speaker 3: phrase I remember that differently, or I see that differently,
Speaker 3: and then you just stick with that phrase. Right there,
Speaker 3: they're going to try and move you off your footing.
Speaker 3: They're going to say, well what about this, or that's
Speaker 3: not what happened, or I mean you're just insane, you
Speaker 3: know how crazy you are? Right? Now to believe that everybody,
Speaker 3: and they're going to try and come at it a
Speaker 3: lot of different ways. But if you just stand still
Speaker 3: and say I remember that differently, you can disagree with me,
Speaker 3: Like even if you say you can disagree with me, no,
Speaker 3: it's fine, you can disagree with I remember that differently.
Speaker 3: It's going to drive them nuts, is what it's going
Speaker 3: to do. And what happens is the anger they get.
Speaker 3: The reason why is because you're not going with what
Speaker 3: they're saying. That's why some people that are tear like
Speaker 3: in the worst of arguments, they resort to physical violence
Speaker 3: because they cannot control you with their words and their
Speaker 3: verbal violence. So instead they will amp it up for
Speaker 3: that sense of control because they realize they're not getting
Speaker 3: it with what they're saying.
Speaker 4: My main takeaway from your whole book and a lot
Speaker 4: of the content that you create, is that you have
Speaker 4: quite a really interesting way to shift the power in
Speaker 4: whether it be conflict or any type of conversation. And
Speaker 4: I was really curious about your response to if you're
Speaker 4: in a dynamic where someone has said something offensive to
Speaker 4: you or even deliberately hurtful, whether it be like a
Speaker 4: family member at Christmas time, or whether it be someone
Speaker 4: in your workplace that you know, you're in the lunch
Speaker 4: room and there's a couple of people around and they'll.
Speaker 1: Throw this jab at you.
Speaker 4: How is it best to respond to them in that situation?
Speaker 3: Begin with the phrase did you mean? Did you mean
Speaker 3: for that to sound rude? Did you mean to hurt
Speaker 3: my feelings? Did you mean for that to embarrass me?
Speaker 3: A lot of different ways that did you mean? Is
Speaker 3: extremely effective, And it's effective immediately because they're saying things
Speaker 3: more often than not, they're saying things to put the
Speaker 3: spotlight on you. How are you going to react? What
Speaker 3: are you going to say? People that are emotionally flooded
Speaker 3: will give them exactly what they want. They're going to
Speaker 3: give that emotional response. It's going to give that other
Speaker 3: person that hit a dopamine. Ah, I got that sense
Speaker 3: of control out of you. They feel pleasure from giving
Speaker 3: you pain because there are people that are already in pain.
Speaker 3: So the best way to alleviate it is to see
Speaker 3: pain and create pain in somebody else. And so when
Speaker 3: you can ask the question, did you say that to
Speaker 3: hurt me? Did you say that to disrespect me? Did
Speaker 3: you say that to offend me. It is a very
Speaker 3: quick way of putting the spotlight immediately back on them,
Speaker 3: like it's some kind of weird jujitsu move because you're
Speaker 3: not confronting it. You're not going blow for blow. You
Speaker 3: were like being blackwater, right, You're you're moving it out
Speaker 3: of the way without even how to do anything by
Speaker 3: simply just asking did you mean for that to upset me?
Speaker 3: And now they're the ones with the spotlight on it,
Speaker 3: and now they're the ones I have to respond. And
Speaker 3: the good thing about did you mean? Is sometimes the
Speaker 3: other person actually didn't mean to be rude, like on
Speaker 3: a text message, if somebody just texted K, which, by
Speaker 3: the way, I think if you text that in any relationship,
Speaker 3: you might as well just dig your grave because something
Speaker 3: is terribly long. Just you bought as well pick out
Speaker 3: your gravestum if I respond with K. But the point
Speaker 3: of it is sometimes if you just take things personally
Speaker 3: of how they looked in that moment or sent you
Speaker 3: that message, and you just decided they sounded rude, Like
Speaker 3: a real quick way to fix that is to text
Speaker 3: did you mean for that to be? Short? No? No, no, no,
Speaker 3: I didn't and they might respond no, no, no, no at all.
Speaker 3: I'm just you know, I'm busy, I'm picking up the
Speaker 3: kids at the carpool, blah blah blah. But now you
Speaker 3: relieved yourself of taking that on and feeling, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: so and so hates me, they don't like me. Right now?
Speaker 3: That did you means a great way of clicking that in.
Speaker 2: I like what you just mentioned, and it makes me
Speaker 2: think of like this idea that sometimes we interpret the
Speaker 2: way that someone said something, or the thing that someone
Speaker 2: said like we interpret it in the way that we
Speaker 2: do for whatever's going on in our life, and we're
Speaker 2: not always right. Like the interpretation of something doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that it's fact. How do you navigate those situations where
Speaker 2: maybe it has been a misunderstanding or maybe the tone
Speaker 2: hasn't matched the tone that the person meant to deliver
Speaker 2: it in, But we've taken that as like a real
Speaker 2: personal attack on ourselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say most of the time we don't
Speaker 3: get it right, and rarely is a message that has
Speaker 3: sent the message received. And the problem is when you
Speaker 3: say something that I have chosen to take personally. You
Speaker 3: say something maybe in a text message, and I go, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: well that's that's rude. Okay, I think consider it rude.
Speaker 3: And then I'm now going to respond something to you
Speaker 3: that's a little bit more rough. Now, yeah, rude. Back.
Speaker 3: Now I'm going to say something because I'm now being
Speaker 3: defensive and like, oh okay, fine, and then now you
Speaker 3: are going to respond right to that. And now it's
Speaker 3: like if self fulfilling prophecy is what I call it,
Speaker 3: I'm now confirming myself that yes I am under attack
Speaker 3: from them. That is simply because of what I chose
Speaker 3: to the filter that I gave it under. And what
Speaker 3: I like to say is it is how often you
Speaker 3: take something personally is a direct reflection of how much
Speaker 3: grace you give other people. If you're always carrying the
Speaker 3: weight of somebody's reaction or how you always see the
Speaker 3: negative and what they're doing, you're not going to have
Speaker 3: a happy life. I mean, you put it in basic
Speaker 3: terms of like travel, Like when you're riding down the
Speaker 3: road and driving, you either have somebody that is behind
Speaker 3: you on your bumper, maybe because you're not going fast
Speaker 3: enough and you can't stand them, like how dare they?
Speaker 3: And you always blame the other person, But if somebody's
Speaker 3: in front of you, and all of a sudden they're
Speaker 3: not going fast enough, and now you become that person,
Speaker 3: but you don't take it personally on you. They should
Speaker 3: be out of your way. Or we do it like pedestrians.
Speaker 3: If you're pedestrian walking, it's like all these cars can wait,
Speaker 3: I'm a pedestrian. Or but you're driving and all these
Speaker 3: pedestrians are front of you, You're like, can they walk
Speaker 3: any slower? Like we always find a way to consider
Speaker 3: it our you know, put it about ourselves, and that's
Speaker 3: just the life that we have. And so anytime that
Speaker 3: you can find ways to just stop stop picking up
Speaker 3: the stones, just stop picking them up, it's going to
Speaker 3: weigh you down.
Speaker 2: Do you think that a lot of this and the
Speaker 2: way that we communicate is particularly gendered. And I asked
Speaker 2: that because even some of the tips that you have suggested,
Speaker 2: like speaking slower, being deliberate with your words, these can
Speaker 2: often be qualities that are attributed to male speakers, Like
Speaker 2: women often speak faster. We often have been conditioned to
Speaker 2: use more filler words or niceties, especially when it comes
Speaker 2: to emails. There's been a bit of conversation around this
Speaker 2: within like Australian media recently, but like women having fluffy
Speaker 2: a emails because we have to be otherwise we're seen
Speaker 2: as not being as likable or nice.
Speaker 1: Do you think that it is a gendered.
Speaker 2: Thing or is it something that can be implemented across both.
Speaker 3: There is certainly I would say an expectation or at
Speaker 3: least a pattern on the female side of very fast engagement.
Speaker 3: They're very sociable. They're more emotionally driven, meaning they like
Speaker 3: to know the feelings of things and the emotion of it,
Speaker 3: and so you like for everybody to feel nice. Guys
Speaker 3: tend to be a lot like we say, at least
Speaker 3: this is the stereotype of being more direct. You can
Speaker 3: be direct and not look like you're trying to be
Speaker 3: a jerk. Not fair on women's side, Yeah, there's a
Speaker 3: lot of the stereotypes and stigmas, and the question to
Speaker 3: ask is what will you continue to do? I believe
Speaker 3: that there are certain stigmas and stereotypes that have been
Speaker 3: ingrained in us long before any of my content ever
Speaker 3: came around. And there are women that I know that
Speaker 3: are powerful in the way they communicate, and when they
Speaker 3: come into the room, they are confident and everybody is
Speaker 3: at attention, and they use their words to build others up,
Speaker 3: and I've seen it to where they can call people
Speaker 3: out when there are problems. That women are much more
Speaker 3: emotionally intelligent than men, in my opinion, because they just
Speaker 3: can sense the emotion. Because they know that nuance, they're
Speaker 3: able to navigate a lot more difficult situations, I think
Speaker 3: for the vast majority of especially workplace times.
Speaker 4: Justin I had a really funny thing that happened specifically
Speaker 4: with setting up this chat, and I was sending an
Speaker 4: email to your PR person okay, and I had typed
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry for my delay in responding. I backspaced
Speaker 4: it and I said, I just went to type this
Speaker 4: to you. But that would imply that I didn't actually
Speaker 4: read Jefferson's book and I didn't learn anything about being
Speaker 4: more assertive with my language.
Speaker 1: And I've realized that whether.
Speaker 4: It's a female thing, I think it does definitely tend
Speaker 4: to be a little bit more in like a female
Speaker 4: language type, or especially for me in emailing, when I'll
Speaker 4: say things that are unnecessary, like I'm just reaching out
Speaker 4: for or I was just wondering.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the high lovely hope you're well, hope
Speaker 2: you had a next weekend, and like, yeah, no one cares.
Speaker 4: All of the fluff and all of the exclamation points.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I'll go back through my emails and be like,
Speaker 4: I need to remove half of these exclamation points because
Speaker 4: I'm looking crazy a out of exlamation points in this
Speaker 4: How do you suggest people become more assertive with their
Speaker 4: language without it feeling insincere or without it feeling as
Speaker 4: though we are trying to ballbuster our way through, whether
Speaker 4: it be an email or an actual conversation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, first of all, thanks for reading my book. That
Speaker 3: does mean a lot to me.
Speaker 1: Well I did take a lesson.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it, you know. And that's
Speaker 3: I think the what brings us home of between genders
Speaker 3: is that when you come to the way you say
Speaker 3: things assertively, like everybody has a different assertive voice, and
Speaker 3: if you want to sound more confident, you have to
Speaker 3: use use an assertive voice. Confidence is what you feel
Speaker 3: after saying something assertive. You don't have to build confidence
Speaker 3: to say something. Confidence is the outcome. And if you
Speaker 3: want to have a better email or better written communication,
Speaker 3: you have to find ways to remove all the ice
Speaker 3: cubes because you're watering down your drink. Otherwise when you
Speaker 3: fill it with the hey, so I have an idea,
Speaker 3: and you can totally let me know if I'm wrong
Speaker 3: about this or not. But like so I was thinking
Speaker 3: about and right there, you just added a lot of
Speaker 3: fluff and it makes it very hard for people to listen,
Speaker 3: have very hard people to read because they're having to
Speaker 3: filter out what is necessary what is not necessary. And
Speaker 3: so if you want to sound assertive, you have to
Speaker 3: serve your words neat. That means eliminating the unnecessary apologies
Speaker 3: like the hey, I'm so sorry, I'm just not getting
Speaker 3: back to this. So sorry, I'm just not seeing this
Speaker 3: like the fact that you fixed it, that's awesome. All
Speaker 3: you need to do is just replace it with words
Speaker 3: of gratitude, thank you forgiving me the time to respond. Perfect.
Speaker 3: Maybe you're a few minutes late to a coffee date. Hey, thanks,
Speaker 3: thanks for your patience. Simple as that, rather Oh I
Speaker 3: am so sorry. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm
Speaker 3: so late. I can't believe this. Like, your self worth
Speaker 3: is not tied to how little of an inconvenience you
Speaker 3: can make yourself. Another tip is to eliminate just hey,
Speaker 3: just wanted to touch base makes you sound hesitant when
Speaker 3: you just eliminated. You don't need it.
Speaker 2: People do it on social media. Hey guys, I'm just
Speaker 2: popping on to Hey, I just wanted to tell you.
Speaker 2: And it's like you're allowed to talk on your own
Speaker 2: social media. You're allowed to tell a story on your stories.
Speaker 1: Guys.
Speaker 3: Yes, Now, I will say in like casual conversation, there's
Speaker 3: nothing wrong with the word just because we're just like that.
Speaker 3: We all know what we're doing well, we all know
Speaker 3: we're in the conversation and this is casual and we
Speaker 3: can let our guard down and talk. In more professional
Speaker 3: settings you have to be on or maybe you're managing people.
Speaker 3: You don't want to use just nearly as much because
Speaker 3: it suggests that you're not leaning in to your environment
Speaker 3: or leaning into the situation instead of the hey, I
Speaker 3: just want to check in. I wanted to check on you.
Speaker 3: That is much more assertive in the way you come
Speaker 3: into it. Another third would be get rid of undercutting
Speaker 3: your words. So we have this habit, at least here
Speaker 3: in America as fur as I have. No. I don't
Speaker 3: know what y'all do over there, but the we will say,
Speaker 3: I hate to bother you like you come in say hey,
Speaker 3: I hate to bother you, but I was thinking and
Speaker 3: right then and there, you're already undercutting what you're about
Speaker 3: to say next. Or they might begin with hey, this
Speaker 3: is so, this is probably a dumb question. But and
Speaker 3: then they go right into it. You're just telling them
Speaker 3: that what you're about to say is going to bother them,
Speaker 3: or what you're going to say is going to be dumb.
Speaker 3: You don't need that, because really why you're doing that
Speaker 3: is because you don't feel like you can lean into
Speaker 3: the situation. You're wanting to feel more hesitant, and all
Speaker 3: you're doing is kind of creating this extra conversation between
Speaker 3: the two of you about your self esteem. Like if
Speaker 3: somebody says, hey, I don't want to bother you, but
Speaker 3: they go, oh, you're not going to bother me. Oh
Speaker 3: I'm not bothering you. Oh okay, and then they go
Speaker 3: into the conversation like you don't you don't need that.
Speaker 3: Instead eliminate it. It's hey, I want to talk with
Speaker 3: you about something simple, as simple as that. You're leaning
Speaker 3: into the conversation.
Speaker 2: What is the damage that we do or the disservice
Speaker 2: that we do to ourselves? And we ask someone who overapologizes.
Speaker 2: I think overapologizing, especially when we speak about like this
Speaker 2: gendered split in communication, Women often apologize a lot. It
Speaker 2: seems to be a characteristic that we're guilty of, you know, like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. But and maybe it's you're saying sorry
Speaker 2: as a filler word when you're not actually sorry. What
Speaker 2: does using the overuse of sorry do?
Speaker 3: It makes you feel small? It's sending the signal off
Speaker 3: I don't belong to be in this space. You think
Speaker 3: of somebody who doesn't say I'm sorry. I think of
Speaker 3: the opposite. You step int somebody in front of their line,
Speaker 3: you know, as a mistake, but they didn't say sorry.
Speaker 3: Or somebody who you go in and go get your
Speaker 3: luggage at the airport and you accidentally cutt in front
Speaker 3: of somebody. You don't even touch them, They just kind
Speaker 3: of scoot back and oh, so sorry. There's this tendency
Speaker 3: to feel like we need to be less than what
Speaker 3: the world is wanting from us, That I have to
Speaker 3: be less and smaller and back and further, and that's
Speaker 3: just not true. Using sorry over and over the unnecessary ones.
Speaker 3: If you've caused a real mistake and you need to apologize,
Speaker 3: that's different and own that error. But most of the
Speaker 3: time we don't need it. We're just using it as
Speaker 3: a filler word. And so when you you sorry, sorry sorry,
Speaker 3: it may not seem like a big deal in that moment,
Speaker 3: but it's corrosive. It will add rust to the relationships
Speaker 3: and feeling like you have to always be less, you know.
Speaker 4: I was just thinking about a conversation that Laura and
Speaker 4: I had yesterday. We were talking about for anyone who's
Speaker 4: listening from Life on Cut, we were talking about the
Speaker 4: last episode of Cloud. And I've just realized that what
Speaker 4: I said to you, I went into that discussion with
Speaker 4: this could be a really terrible idea, and I'm totally
Speaker 4: okay if you think it's awful, But this is what
Speaker 4: I was thinking could be the last episode, and this
Speaker 4: is the structure of it, and this is what I
Speaker 4: was thinking about creating. What do you think I think
Speaker 4: that I go into situations like that with that as
Speaker 4: the first part of the conversation, not necessarily because I
Speaker 4: think that my idea is actually terrible, but I feel
Speaker 4: like it maybe softens my chance of being rejected and being.
Speaker 1: Told that it's a terrible idea.
Speaker 4: Is that the case like, are we actually bolstering ourselves
Speaker 4: to be rejected or for our ideas to be cut
Speaker 4: down and may be told that they're a terrible idea,
Speaker 4: or are we giving the person more permission to reject
Speaker 4: our ideas.
Speaker 3: So it's the opposite of the first one. So it's
Speaker 3: actually cutting your own value of what you're wanting. They're
Speaker 3: going to take it how they're going to take it,
Speaker 3: no matter what. Now, how you present it is very different.
Speaker 3: In fact, I would much rather you say it from
Speaker 3: a position of confidence in believing what you're saying. And
Speaker 3: we have other strategies for if you want more of
Speaker 3: their input and not feeling like it's either your way
Speaker 3: of the highway kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So it was also a great idea.
Speaker 4: Just why I thank you get a lot of praise
Speaker 4: for it, and I felt wonderful.
Speaker 1: I was like, yes, go ahead, do that. That's right.
Speaker 3: So for example, let's say somebody who goes, I could
Speaker 3: be wrong about this. By the way, if they begin
Speaker 3: with that, they never think they're wrong about this. I
Speaker 3: always think they're probably pretty right on it. But what
Speaker 3: we do is we will try to undercut so that
Speaker 3: we don't sound too arrogant. Or that we know it all.
Speaker 3: You might say, you know, you probably know this better
Speaker 3: than me. That's just that's probably not true. We're just
Speaker 3: wanting to not sound like we're really arrogant, and we
Speaker 3: think a lot of ourselves have a whole lot of ego,
Speaker 3: so we're trying to cut down on that. My advice is,
Speaker 3: don't say that at all. You don't need to have
Speaker 3: this lead up. You're wanting to sound less intrusive, but
Speaker 3: really it's watering your message because now they're thinking about
Speaker 3: you rather than what you're needing to say. So there's
Speaker 3: nothing wrong with it. I'm not going to say that
Speaker 3: it's just so terrible, never do it. No, it's only
Speaker 3: that these are phrases that tend to cut down on
Speaker 3: your own self esteem to where you're feeling like you're
Speaker 3: showing up less and less of yourself and you feel
Speaker 3: like you can't say what you need to say when
Speaker 3: push comes to the shove, and you're not going to
Speaker 3: be counted when people are trying to get opinions in
Speaker 3: the room. But there's also a difference of how you
Speaker 3: want to lead into a conversation versus like you telling
Speaker 3: your point and getting that out at the outset versus
Speaker 3: putting everybody on a six minute ride of you have
Speaker 3: to kind of give all the contacts and lay it
Speaker 3: all out and everybody's going where are they going? At
Speaker 3: the very end, you finally give the takeaway. That's much
Speaker 3: harder to convince people of this.
Speaker 1: Something that we didn't kind of deep dive on.
Speaker 2: And I would love to get your opinion on it,
Speaker 2: because it's something that comes up in relationships a lot
Speaker 2: and in communication, and especially when one person's feeling attacked.
Speaker 2: And we literally were talking about this this morning, But defensiveness,
Speaker 2: how do we manage the reaction of feeling defensive? Like
Speaker 2: we need to protect ourselves or we need to defend
Speaker 2: ourselves when it comes to conflict, And I guess how
Speaker 2: do we? Like, what are the tools to better see
Speaker 2: that in ourselves or to recognize it in someone else
Speaker 2: who're communicating with and diffuse those sorts of situations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, defensiveness is probably the number one deterrent of effective
Speaker 3: communication because it closes me off from wanting to talk
Speaker 3: with you and closes me off, closing me off from myself,
Speaker 3: and closes me off from talking to you or wanting
Speaker 3: to know anything about you, like picture it. When you
Speaker 3: get defensive, it's like you lock the door to your
Speaker 3: room and then get mad that they can't come in
Speaker 3: and blame them for not coming in, because at that
Speaker 3: point you're not you don't want them to understand you anymore.
Speaker 3: You don't want to understand them. You're done with them,
Speaker 3: And we put ourselves in a position of just really
Speaker 3: hurting ourselves because well, I still expect you to understand me.
Speaker 3: If you've ever heard somebody go, well, they know, they
Speaker 3: should know, they should know. That's going to upset me,
Speaker 3: Like I don't have to tell them they should know that,
Speaker 3: But yet we won't give them that same courtesy. So
Speaker 3: defensiveness has a way of just protecting the me in
Speaker 3: the mind and going back to, like we said, just
Speaker 3: caring about ourselves. If you want to start breaking defensiveness
Speaker 3: in the other person, you find ways of acknowledging their
Speaker 3: point without being confrontational. I'm not saying be soft. I'm
Speaker 3: not saying you can't speak what you need to say.
Speaker 3: But when you can say something like I can see,
Speaker 3: like begin your phrase with, I can see I can
Speaker 3: see how you feel that way, I can see why
Speaker 3: you think that, I can see why that upset you.
Speaker 3: We're all just wanting to feel like what we're seeing
Speaker 3: from our particular point of view is real, can be justified,
Speaker 3: is not imaginary, it's reasonable. And so when you can
Speaker 3: say I can see it's me signaling, Hey, I've walked
Speaker 3: over to where you are, I've looked. I can see
Speaker 3: why that upset you. I can see why you feel
Speaker 3: that way. Boom, all of a sudden, they're gonna not
Speaker 3: feel nearly as defensive, like they have to continue to
Speaker 3: prove that what they're thinking and feeling is the right thing,
Speaker 3: Like they don't have to continue to fight for that
Speaker 3: in the conversation. Or it can say something as simple
Speaker 3: as you know, I agree. You don't have to agree
Speaker 3: with what they said. It could just be I agree,
Speaker 3: this is what we're talking about. I agree we should
Speaker 3: talk about this. I agree that's an important point. Period.
Speaker 1: I love this. You're like, I agree.
Speaker 2: I don't really agree with you, but I'm just I'm
Speaker 2: agreeing exactly.
Speaker 4: Love, I agree that we should talk about Yes, that's brilliant, Yeah,
Speaker 4: because it makes people put their swords down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So what happens is we think of the
Speaker 3: micro we're thinking like I don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not.
Speaker 3: Of course, I'm not gonna agree with what they said.
Speaker 3: That's not the point. That's not the point. The point
Speaker 3: is if you just say, I agree, that's what we're
Speaker 3: talking about. I agree we need to discuss this. Just
Speaker 3: that alone is going to like you said, let them
Speaker 3: with their sword down, or say something that's helpful to know.
Speaker 3: That's helpful to know, or what I've learned from listening.
Speaker 3: What I've learned is this is really important to you.
Speaker 3: I haven't said anything about agreeing with their point. I'm
Speaker 3: just saying what I've learned because it's acknowledging them. Defensiveness
Speaker 3: is this feeling of let's put it in terms of
Speaker 3: like I have a glass of water and you have
Speaker 3: a glass of water. I can't pour new thoughts into
Speaker 3: a cup that are already full. I have to let
Speaker 3: you pour it all out and ask questions to get
Speaker 3: you to share how you're feeling before you will ever
Speaker 3: be receptive to my new thoughts. So when people just
Speaker 3: go into an argument thinking that what they say already
Speaker 3: deserves to be bought, already deserves to be taken in
Speaker 3: and taken as the gospel truth, you're running into a
Speaker 3: problem because that's mostly the ego. How dare you think
Speaker 3: that anybody else's idea is good except for mine? That's
Speaker 3: what happens, especially in the workplace settings. You have an idea,
Speaker 3: somebody doesn't like it. They don't like it because it's
Speaker 3: not their idea. It's this sense of ownership that we
Speaker 3: take in conversations that if I say it, this is
Speaker 3: the only thing that you can accept, period, that's going
Speaker 3: to bring defensiveness every time. Instead, you need to ask
Speaker 3: a lot of questions, find ways to get curious about
Speaker 3: why and how they believe before they will begin to
Speaker 3: be receptive to how you begin to think. It's all
Speaker 3: about the perspective of where they're sitting.
Speaker 4: Speaking of perspective, and you previously mentioned like an intentional apology,
Speaker 4: where you've done something actually wrong and you need to
Speaker 4: have a proper apology for that, but not saying sorry
Speaker 4: for things that you're not actually sorry for. In your book,
Speaker 4: you listed through different types of apologies, and I was
Speaker 4: wondering if we could go through each of them and
Speaker 4: you could explain what each of them were.
Speaker 1: The first one was the no empathy apology.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is where somebody will typically say, like I'm
Speaker 3: sorry you feel that way. That's the worst, It's the
Speaker 3: absolutely worst. Oh yeah, well you know what, I'm sorry
Speaker 3: you felt that way. Like you know, it's not an apology,
Speaker 3: and so these are really bad apologies. I think that's
Speaker 3: probably the number one culprit that no empathy apology. And
Speaker 3: with this, what I encourage people to respond with is
Speaker 3: you don't need to apologize for my feelings, apologize for
Speaker 3: what you said, or apologize for what you did. Because
Speaker 3: when they're say i'm sorry you feel that way, they're
Speaker 3: in essence of apologizing for your feelings every time. That's
Speaker 3: going to be a problem for you when you are
Speaker 3: trying to have a real conversation, because all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: they're going to try and make it about you and
Speaker 3: you're going to start arguing, and that's where they want you.
Speaker 3: They want you to go off the rabbit trail, try
Speaker 3: to deflect. But when you can just say you don't
Speaker 3: need to apologize for my feelings like I got those
Speaker 3: these are my feelings. I need you to apologize for
Speaker 3: what you said, that's going to be a whole lot
Speaker 3: stronger every time. One of the worst ones that I
Speaker 3: hate the most, and I believe this is the toxic
Speaker 3: apology is when somebody says, well, I'm sorry that i'm
Speaker 3: such a bad friend, I'm sorry that i'm such a
Speaker 3: bad mother, I'm sorry that you're so perfect. We all
Speaker 3: know that's not an apology. And what they're trying to
Speaker 3: do is bait you in that moment. They're trying to
Speaker 3: get it to where they are manipulating you to go
Speaker 3: off into the rabbit trail for you to go, You're
Speaker 3: not a bad mom. That's not what I said. You're
Speaker 3: a really good mom, and like try to be play
Speaker 3: the victim or I'm sorry that you're so perfect, and
Speaker 3: all of a sudden you go, I'm not perfect. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm a mistakes. That's exactly what they're wanting. Instead, you
Speaker 3: just need to set that aside and just repeat, I'm
Speaker 3: willing to accept an apology, like you're not. What you're
Speaker 3: saying to them is I see what you're trying to
Speaker 3: take me. I'm willing to accept an apology. So you're
Speaker 3: kind of saying, this is your chance right now to apologize.
Speaker 3: There's another one that we talk about, and this is
Speaker 3: where it's like, I'm sorry, but i'm just so overwhelmed.
Speaker 3: I think that might be the no apology apology where
Speaker 3: it's like, I'm sorry that I've just been so stressed. Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but I've just been so overwhelmed right now,
Speaker 3: as if that's going to all of a sudden cure
Speaker 3: all the bad things that they just told you. Well,
Speaker 3: you can do is respond, I don't need you to
Speaker 3: apologize for what your stress has done to you. I
Speaker 3: need you to apologize for what it's done to me.
Speaker 3: So whenever you can turn that those key phrases to
Speaker 3: say no, in that essence, they're apologizing for their stress,
Speaker 3: whatever it is they're apologizing for feeling overwhelmed. You don't
Speaker 3: need to apologize or feeling overwhelmed. I need you to
Speaker 3: apologize for what it's done to me. Those are easy
Speaker 3: ways to be able to call them to the mat
Speaker 3: in real time of saying, hey, you and I both
Speaker 3: know that wasn't really an apology, and in case you
Speaker 3: didn't know, that wasn't a real apology, I need to
Speaker 3: apologize for what you did or you said, for your
Speaker 3: own actions, not apologizing for something that's off to the side.
Speaker 1: Where to flip this.
Speaker 4: The main example that I can think of in my
Speaker 4: own life is like when things at work, for example,
Speaker 4: are particularly busy and I'm feeling quite like I don't
Speaker 4: have time to call my mom back. You know, my
Speaker 4: mom might have called me three days before and I
Speaker 4: haven't called her back yet, and I will send her
Speaker 4: a message and I'll say something along the lines of like, hey,
Speaker 4: I'm sorry I haven't called you back.
Speaker 1: Things have been really busy.
Speaker 4: I recognize that that is the justification, you know, that's
Speaker 4: the justification apology, being like this is why. But I
Speaker 4: also do actually feel like I want to give her
Speaker 4: a bit of context as to why I haven't called
Speaker 4: her back.
Speaker 1: Right, is it right to do that?
Speaker 4: Or is it always like a bad thing to try
Speaker 4: and give a justification for why you have done something
Speaker 4: that might be even a little bit wrong.
Speaker 3: There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, it's going to
Speaker 3: be dependent on the relationship between you and your mom.
Speaker 3: Maybe she wants to know. Moms are different, they want
Speaker 3: to know everything. That's just part of it, because sometimes
Speaker 3: that might not really be a justification. It's really you
Speaker 3: just showing her into your life and giving her a
Speaker 3: little bit of a glimpse and giving her some information
Speaker 3: of what's happening where you go into the hard spots
Speaker 3: or where it's, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I
Speaker 3: have just been so stressed and like it's just been
Speaker 3: I can't get past it. It's so overwhelmed and like
Speaker 3: I'm just I literally cannot like that kind of stuff,
Speaker 3: or it just against the crumble to where the more
Speaker 3: I say, the less you actually believe. Then it starts
Speaker 3: to sound like a really bad excuse. Have you ever
Speaker 3: had somebody say no to an invitation and you felt
Speaker 3: like they gave you a whole paragraph Oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: I would love to but I am just so blah
Speaker 3: blah blah blah blah blah, and you know I have
Speaker 3: to go and do this, and so and so is
Speaker 3: just you're going you could have just said no. It's
Speaker 3: it's like the more words it takes to tell the truth,
Speaker 3: the more it sounds like a lie. If you've ever
Speaker 3: had somebody go, just tell me no next time, you
Speaker 3: could have just said no. And so it is it's
Speaker 3: a way that you want to make them feel better,
Speaker 3: but it often has the reverse effect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's also because we like we're
Speaker 2: so conscious about letting people down and saying no and
Speaker 2: feeling as though no is not a good enough excuse
Speaker 2: that you have to have the excuse to sit alongside it.
Speaker 3: Yes, you're feeling their feelings for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, in that Like, I find that so interesting
Speaker 2: cause I feel like with different relationships, you probably have
Speaker 2: to approach it differently depending on the person and that
Speaker 2: you're speaking to.
Speaker 3: Too.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like with some people and no is enough,
Speaker 2: and other people I feel like I have to over
Speaker 2: justify the no, you know what I mean, because of
Speaker 2: the level of disappointment that I think they're going to feel.
Speaker 2: But you're exactly right, it's assuming their reaction, befo.
Speaker 1: We're actually knowing it anyway, right.
Speaker 3: You are naturally assuming that they are not emotionally resilient
Speaker 3: enough to handle it, that your presence and your participation
Speaker 3: is so vital to their well being that you have
Speaker 3: to let them down so softly and give all the
Speaker 3: excuses and all the justifications because you think that they're
Speaker 3: just going to be crushed. And yeah, it is. That
Speaker 3: is a very hard position to put yourself in, because
Speaker 3: it's saying I am just so important to your world,
Speaker 3: I'm going to crush you if I have to deliver
Speaker 3: this information instead of just telling them in real time
Speaker 3: that isn't going to disappoint you. I can't go. I
Speaker 3: got bad news. Can't make it the way I like
Speaker 3: to teach to say no to. Let's say you get
Speaker 3: an invitation for something to go to dinner with some
Speaker 3: friends where people go wrong, as where they begin with
Speaker 3: the gratitude and they end with the no. They'll be,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, that sounds amazing that I can't. I
Speaker 3: love to that I can't, right, and so they begin
Speaker 3: with the gratitude. Then they say the word but but
Speaker 3: has a way of eliminating everything before it, like I
Speaker 3: love you, but you just drive me like that right there.
Speaker 3: It destroys everything that can right before it. So if
Speaker 3: you begin with the gratitude and then in with the know,
Speaker 3: it's just like a womp. It ends it down. Instead,
Speaker 3: this is real simple to do. Begin with the know,
Speaker 3: all right, so they would be as simple as I
Speaker 3: can't make it, and then leave with like the gratitude,
Speaker 3: thank you so much for thinking of me, so grateful
Speaker 3: that you invited me, and then add to sprinkle in
Speaker 3: some kindness something like I bet it's going to be
Speaker 3: awesome or Let's say they invited you to some new spot.
Speaker 3: You could say, like, I've heard really good things about it.
Speaker 3: Let me know how it goes. As long as you
Speaker 3: are delivering that and having and in between the set
Speaker 3: of the butt, start with the no, then the gratitude
Speaker 3: and the kindness, it's gonna go a whole lot better.
Speaker 4: I got to be more assertive, Jefferson, thank you so
Speaker 4: much for joining us. Your new book, The Next Conversation,
Speaker 4: and all of your social media will be linked in
Speaker 4: our show notes for anyone who would like to grab
Speaker 4: themselves a copy and you can try that and follow
Speaker 4: him nice.
Speaker 3: I love that. That's great. Thank you so much for
Speaker 3: having me. It's been a big honor. And yeah, I
Speaker 3: hope you have a wonderful, wonderful us every day