Speaker 1: Welcome back. We're up to episode six of the catch
Speaker 1: up series of The Lady Vanishers. This time we focus
Speaker 1: on episodes fifteen to nineteen of the original series. I'm
Speaker 1: Brian Seymour and.
Speaker 2: I'm Alison Sandy. Let's get straight into it.
Speaker 1: Our investigations have recently taken Sally to Sydney, where she
Speaker 1: met up with me, did some interviews and went to
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Coroner's Court to speak with Anne Lambino.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Look, that was like a closed door meeting between myself
Speaker 4: and family and presidents cursons at the coroner's court. You know,
Speaker 4: it was all little daunting going there. I'm not going
Speaker 4: to it's not going to lie.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: It sort of flooded back to me when my brother
Speaker 4: died because he actually went to the local current's court.
Speaker 4: I guess more more when he died, So you know,
Speaker 4: for me, I kind of bought that a lot of
Speaker 4: memories and thought, yeah, it was just that was kind
Speaker 4: of a bit a bit freaky and a bit scary.
Speaker 4: I guess to do that by myself. But you know,
Speaker 4: they are lovely people and they sat missing to me talk.
Speaker 4: You know, that was very patient with me and we
Speaker 4: talked for about an hour and a half. So it's
Speaker 4: nice to know that finally I have people in the
Speaker 4: South Wales police units I guess who are helping me
Speaker 4: and has got my best interest at heart, which is
Speaker 4: really promising. And you know, there's nothing to take away
Speaker 4: from the podcast that we've created because without that, I
Speaker 4: wouldn't have what I have right now and I wouldn't
Speaker 4: be in this position right now. So you know, I'm
Speaker 4: eternally grateful to you, particularly Alison, because you know, without
Speaker 4: your belief in me and the story that I shared
Speaker 4: with you in that coffee that you I'm sure you
Speaker 4: thought it was going to be a five minute coffee
Speaker 4: over a year ago, you know, and here we still
Speaker 4: sit plotting a lot, doing hits. The investigation Sammy Grime.
Speaker 4: You know, it's so passionate about doing the story and
Speaker 4: Sally and the team behind you guys who are putting
Speaker 4: it all together, and obviously the clues that I've got.
Speaker 4: You know, I become super close to them. We talked daily.
Speaker 3: They just never give up.
Speaker 6: I've never met.
Speaker 3: People like these people.
Speaker 4: In my life, so you know, for them and their efforts,
Speaker 4: I'm eternally grateful and.
Speaker 2: Has been excellent at keeping Sally informed about how the
Speaker 2: Coroner's court operates and how long she can expect to wait.
Speaker 2: During a series of email exchanges in October, we determined
Speaker 2: that a decision on whether an inquest would be held
Speaker 2: from Marian may not be made until March or April
Speaker 2: next year. This was after Detective Senior Constable Gary Shehan
Speaker 2: had indicated to Sally that the brief of evidence he's
Speaker 2: required to prepare for the coroner may take longer than
Speaker 2: the usual three months.
Speaker 4: He told me that the normal recommendation for a brief
Speaker 4: of evidence is three months, but you can request an extension,
Speaker 4: and that he said to me, clut out, I will
Speaker 4: one hundred percent be asking for that, as I need
Speaker 4: the time to.
Speaker 7: Compile it, Dear Sally.
Speaker 2: This is how Anne explained it in an email.
Speaker 8: The coroner's decision on whether an inquest will be held
Speaker 8: is made after the coroner has gone through the brief
Speaker 8: of evidence and determined that the person is deceased. So yes,
Speaker 8: this could be six months if it takes that long
Speaker 8: for the police to file the brief of evidence with
Speaker 8: the coroner. The inquest would then be held. To determine
Speaker 8: the date place cause and manner of death kind regards Anne.
Speaker 2: Just to clarify, an inquest is a court hearing conducted
Speaker 2: by a coroner to gather information about the cause and
Speaker 2: circumstances of a death or presume death if a person
Speaker 2: has been missing for more than seven years. They are
Speaker 2: only held in certain cases, for example, if the death
Speaker 2: occurs in suspicious or unusual circumstances, or if the cause
Speaker 2: of death is unknown. Anne Lambino posted a booklet detailing
Speaker 2: the coronial process for missing persons to Sally and explained.
Speaker 8: State coroner Teresa O'Sullivan has carriage of your mother's case
Speaker 8: and she will determine if an inquest will be held
Speaker 8: after receipt of the police brief. I assume you would
Speaker 8: like a copy of the brief of evidence, so I
Speaker 8: have marked the file accordingly. If an inquest is held,
Speaker 8: a copy of the brief will be sent to you
Speaker 8: well before the inquest.
Speaker 6: New Eyes.
Speaker 2: When Sally met with Anne in Sydney, she found out
Speaker 2: some unexpected information. While Gary Shehan is still working on
Speaker 2: the case, he is no longer working alone. In fact,
Speaker 2: there's a new officer in charge, a.
Speaker 4: Person who don't wish to be identified, who is working
Speaker 4: in the UNFELF Traumicized Squad in Sydney, who has been
Speaker 4: in touch with me and spoken to me at length
Speaker 4: and is hoping to meet up with me at some
Speaker 4: point so that I can thrown through what I know
Speaker 4: and what information i've them helps them look at as well,
Speaker 4: and looking at the information that we have in the
Speaker 4: documentation that we have and some of the things that
Speaker 4: aren't quite right, I guess they want to meet me
Speaker 4: in person first. When I say, I don't even know
Speaker 4: who that is exactly, I don't know if there's a
Speaker 4: team of them or just one person, but they do
Speaker 4: refer to themselves as an oc SO, which is an
Speaker 4: officer in charge. So I would hazard a guess that
Speaker 4: they potentially will take over the case because it's a
Speaker 4: whole new, new division and it sort of takes away
Speaker 4: from just being in a police station at Tweetheads by
Speaker 4: they it goes into I still don't really know, to
Speaker 4: be honest, I'm still learning about what it is and
Speaker 4: what that means for me exactly a month's case, but
Speaker 4: I'm hoping that we get to catch up sooner than
Speaker 4: later and then I can have more information.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we once again reached out to mister
Speaker 1: Remichel in Luxembourg. Alison first spoke with his partner Marie.
Speaker 2: Hello, I'm looking for Fernande. Please uh Tila, just looking
Speaker 2: for Fernande. If he's available, please Fernande. I know you understand. Fernande.
Speaker 9: Is he there?
Speaker 2: Please?
Speaker 6: Looks six So.
Speaker 5: Why what we do?
Speaker 10: What do you want to.
Speaker 2: Or seven am? Look, it's Alison Sandy. I'm from Australia.
Speaker 2: Obviously following up, we didn't want to knock on your
Speaker 2: door again, so we thought you'd prefer if we called
Speaker 2: rather than knocked on your door.
Speaker 6: Yeah, what do you like? What do you want? What
Speaker 6: do you want us?
Speaker 2: Oh, we just wanted to speak to finand because we
Speaker 2: had those questions, we sent him. That's all. We're just
Speaker 2: following it up. We want to rule him out so
Speaker 2: that you phone up.
Speaker 3: To the walk to the June that we stay to the.
Speaker 11: You don't know what to do to us, well.
Speaker 2: We can undo it. I guess if we could speak
Speaker 2: to Finand we have talked to everybody else as part
Speaker 2: of this, he's the only one we haven't been able
Speaker 2: to talk to properly.
Speaker 3: We have nothing to do with something.
Speaker 6: He was never in Australia. He was never he can
Speaker 6: help you.
Speaker 1: With the help of our sleuths, we tracked down Susie Kup,
Speaker 1: the teacher who came out from England on exchange while
Speaker 1: Marian worked at the Southport School in the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 1: The pair hit it off, and when Marian decided to
Speaker 1: embark on her overseas adventure, Susie Cooper was someone she
Speaker 1: intended to catch up with. But when Sally reached out
Speaker 1: to Susie in an effort to shake some memories loose
Speaker 1: that might help with our investigation, her husband said no.
Speaker 2: However, we did chat with another man who understands very
Speaker 2: well the sense of loss and emptiness she'd experienced for
Speaker 2: more than twenty years. Mark Levison's twenty year old son, Matthew,
Speaker 2: was last seen leaving a Sydney nightclub in September two
Speaker 2: thousand and seven. Matthew's partner, Michael Atkins, went to trial
Speaker 2: for the murder and manslaughter of Matthew in two thousand
Speaker 2: and nine, but was found not guilty. For nine years,
Speaker 2: Atkins lied what was the turning point when they finally
Speaker 2: started to take like? What treated the seriousness the year
Speaker 2: of the police taking car Matt's.
Speaker 12: Second probably the find of the car that was the key.
Speaker 12: I think we went down the police station to that.
Speaker 3: Again.
Speaker 12: What we we we weren't told is that they had
Speaker 12: already found Matt's car. Matt's car was found on the
Speaker 12: on the Thursday morning MM and the ground staff at
Speaker 12: the Park of Settlement had located the car and as
Speaker 12: unusual said car there for all those days. So it
Speaker 12: was brought to the police and yeah, and they realized
Speaker 12: it was the car blowing the mat. So they opened
Speaker 12: the car and found a receipt in there from Bunnings MM.
Speaker 12: When the Bunnings at uh tarran point and saw Akins
Speaker 12: walking at at twelve o'clock on the Sunday MM empty
Speaker 12: handed walking out about twelve out seven with a matic
Speaker 12: and cloth tape as per the receipt that was in
Speaker 12: the car bearing his fingerprint with thumbprint MM. And that's
Speaker 12: when it got serious. That's where which we did we
Speaker 12: weren't told. They told us Arthur is longing to be
Speaker 12: with the detective. The first interview they said, look, we
Speaker 12: can tell you now you couldn't see before case tend
Speaker 12: to what you were saying. If I met car this morning,
Speaker 12: how long after after you did send the Sunday This
Speaker 12: is a Thursday. The Carols found that that morning on
Speaker 12: the Thursday. But initially they thought, you know, a young
Speaker 12: gay guy. That's our best guess that a young gay
Speaker 12: he's on a vender somewhere. You'll be right, that's we
Speaker 12: first thought. How are they were approaching it not more
Speaker 12: seriously because he was gay, because he was young, because
Speaker 12: all those reasons.
Speaker 5: So it's funny too because they've made assumptions on my
Speaker 5: mum as well, being that she was a fifty one
Speaker 5: year old woman who was married and divorced three times,
Speaker 5: so therefore she obviously wants to go missing because of
Speaker 5: those factors. And that's what when you're reading the Freedom
Speaker 5: of Information and transcripts, it's constantly brought up, Oh, this
Speaker 5: woman was fifty one. She was obviously wanting to move
Speaker 5: on and have a new life for herself. Like, I
Speaker 5: don't understand why assumptions like that can be put into
Speaker 5: a series this matter, like a missing person's came.
Speaker 12: It's a better detective, say, don't make assumptions. Look at
Speaker 12: the evidence with that to.
Speaker 5: You, never assume, because it makes some ass out of
Speaker 5: you and me you know, it's it's not something that
Speaker 5: I do lightly. I like to base my things on facts.
Speaker 12: You need to. We had the earlier police missed so
Speaker 12: many things. I mean Gary's team in the end, Yeah,
Speaker 12: they found on Matt's phone that there's already had years prior.
Speaker 12: They would go through things again. Atkins only grew matha
Speaker 12: for drugs. I ever tried drugs or ever tried jollies
Speaker 12: and I'll share, I'll look after you and coaxing and teaching.
Speaker 13: You right right right?
Speaker 5: How interesting?
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's so much. It was located on the phones
Speaker 12: on the computer that was overlooked initially. If only they
Speaker 12: had like we have now iPhones well Jair tracking things
Speaker 12: on that we've been just so amazing back then of
Speaker 12: course with them other with their mobile phones there, so
Speaker 12: those things have been a gods.
Speaker 2: And all the while the Levison family pushed for a
Speaker 2: coroner's inquest into the case.
Speaker 12: Yes it did wears down a what But the thing is,
Speaker 12: we never even considered quitting. And that's what the authorities
Speaker 12: came to realize near the end, that she's just this
Speaker 12: time because they're not they're not going away.
Speaker 14: But what we found was which worked well quite for
Speaker 14: a while, I get gone, drag out, hit him again
Speaker 14: and don't think out shit and rather how are your
Speaker 14: pest just right?
Speaker 13: Okay?
Speaker 12: Again?
Speaker 5: And I didn't really worry about it too much because
Speaker 5: he doesn't work on Mondays.
Speaker 2: Atkins had been the last person to see Matthew alive.
Speaker 2: He said the young man died from an accidental drug overdose,
Speaker 2: but in exchange for legal indemnity, Atkins finally provided information
Speaker 2: about the possible whereabouts of Matthew's body. He drew a
Speaker 2: map that led to extensive excavations at the Royal National
Speaker 2: Park south of Sybney.
Speaker 12: So on this eighth afternoon where we had listened to
Speaker 12: on the crane or warrant and probably about four minutes
Speaker 12: of digging time of the tobacco's going. Why they take
Speaker 12: this set to the commercial operator. Let's pull that palm
Speaker 12: there even thinking of the pumps out the round and
Speaker 12: I saw it in the bucket of the back hours
Speaker 12: of the faith that looked nice. Now you are just
Speaker 12: joking with the immedis they called Garrio with Then we
Speaker 12: got him, We found him.
Speaker 15: New South Wales police have located human remains following an
Speaker 15: extensive search in the Royal National Park for missing man
Speaker 15: Matthew Levison.
Speaker 12: When they found Matt, we're just talking scullull remains, but
Speaker 12: Matt wearing a morgod she and he's Morgan, a plastic
Speaker 12: weathering the words. So they found a G the A
Speaker 12: N R, M and O. So they've word Morgan and
Speaker 12: two edged darts. So we knew was Matt straight away.
Speaker 12: How did you feel? Mixed emotions, elated and poor failure.
Speaker 12: She always had in her head that glimerous of the
Speaker 12: smaller small hopes that just maybe he's out there as good.
Speaker 12: That confirmed across he was, and but I was just
Speaker 12: just believed that we found them, it could get out
Speaker 12: of there and bring him home. Yeah, and in the
Speaker 12: next few days it was like excavating a mummy, you know,
Speaker 12: they had paint brushes and game. That happened so carefully.
Speaker 12: There's some parts there that are missing and we think
Speaker 12: most likely they've disturbed that in the first dig and
Speaker 12: not seeing what's what's in the soil and they were
Speaker 12: missing out al caa fema that's a solid bones that's
Speaker 12: in the first dig, and did not realize it was there,
Speaker 12: not seeing anything.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's even crazy too. And they've got it and
Speaker 5: they didn't find femur in it.
Speaker 12: So yeah, they had the forensic people there. They were
Speaker 12: there the whole time, but they were going through a
Speaker 12: big sieve, going huge sieve, and they were going through
Speaker 12: all the soil that they dug up and were digging up.
Speaker 12: And that's still finding more and more small bones there.
Speaker 12: How many days all that? Eight five eight, So with
Speaker 12: twenty one.
Speaker 2: Matt's remains were found in a shallow grave beneath the
Speaker 2: cabbage palm in May twenty seventeen.
Speaker 15: They'll now be sent away for further forensic analysis. However,
Speaker 15: police and family have waited several years for this breakthrough.
Speaker 2: That palm is now planted in the Levison's yard and
Speaker 2: last year.
Speaker 12: To us, one more thing is is it ever? No? Never,
Speaker 12: because some prints our will let you get back to normality.
Speaker 12: Now now there's a new normal. The old normal has gone.
Speaker 5: For the wood now in my house talking to me
Speaker 5: about things.
Speaker 12: That's what we thought to us. You know, we were
Speaker 12: helped by saying people through our journey, when you're trying
Speaker 12: to give back, it's therapeutic. It helps us to code.
Speaker 12: And we lost so many friends. People who don't know
Speaker 12: what to say to you. We will see what we
Speaker 12: call friends change aisles in the stupermarket what to voice.
Speaker 12: But we've gained some new friends.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've said that too, Like you know, out of
Speaker 5: if you're looking at the brighter side of a sad story.
Speaker 5: The amount of people I've met, like yourself and so
Speaker 5: many Allison Brian likes.
Speaker 12: The list is huge.
Speaker 5: Of all the people who are super close to me now,
Speaker 5: like I've got like Allison's on my speeder Vryan's constantly
Speaker 5: texting the solution that I'm working with their like my
Speaker 5: best friends now.
Speaker 2: Episode sixteen began by looking closer at the incoming passenger
Speaker 2: card that Marian supposedly filled out herself upon leaving the
Speaker 2: United Kingdom in nineteen ninety seven. It's date stamped the
Speaker 2: second of August Brisbane Airport and includes the following details
Speaker 2: her new name, date of birth, country of residence, occupation,
Speaker 2: marital status and flight details.
Speaker 1: We sent away copies of the passenger card and postcards
Speaker 1: written by Marion to handwriting experts to determine if there
Speaker 1: was a match.
Speaker 2: The first expert we consulted advised this.
Speaker 16: On an initial inspection, it appeared that the letters, etc.
Speaker 16: Are predominantly a cursive script, whilst the passenger card is
Speaker 16: upper case lettering, which cannot be compared. The small amount
Speaker 16: of uppercase printing in the letters etc. Also appears to
Speaker 16: be insufficient for a useful comparison to be conducted with
Speaker 16: the passenger card. Your sincerely, Stephen Dubadat, Forensic document Examiner.
Speaker 1: From this, we still don't know if it was Marian.
Speaker 1: If it wasn't, who was it was she traveling alone?
Speaker 1: Could Marian have really married while in England? If so,
Speaker 1: did her new husband travel back with her? This document
Speaker 1: holds the key to so much, and presumably New South
Speaker 1: Wales Police is trying to find out the answers to
Speaker 1: these questions too. Now they have an airline and flight number,
Speaker 1: detectives should be able to locate a flight manifest listing
Speaker 1: all the passengers, possibly including who was sitting next to Marian,
Speaker 1: and they can also potentially access the archived CCTV footage
Speaker 1: from the airport to confirm whether this was really her
Speaker 1: coming through the arrival gate.
Speaker 17: Yeah, hello, Cliff Hobden.
Speaker 1: Fortunately we had more lark with the second handwriting expert.
Speaker 17: I was the former commander of the New South Wales
Speaker 17: Police Document Examination section. I've written curriculum on handwriting comparison.
Speaker 17: I've been giving evidence for about twenty years without my
Speaker 17: evidence ever being challenged on the basis of my expertise.
Speaker 17: So I made the comparison, and my opinion is, or
Speaker 17: would be for a court that the specimen writer wrote
Speaker 17: the questioned handwriting.
Speaker 18: However, he qualified this.
Speaker 17: All opinions that are formed by way of a subjective
Speaker 17: process have some degree of error. I mean, that's why
Speaker 17: there's the Court of Appeal for when magistrates and judges
Speaker 17: make subjective opinions. And what applies to handwriting opinions is
Speaker 17: you cannot present it to the court as one hundred
Speaker 17: percent accurate.
Speaker 1: While it's not an exact science, Cliff is very comprehensive
Speaker 1: in his analysis.
Speaker 17: You assess the specimen by looking not just at letter designs,
Speaker 17: but other features such as ratios, connections, the way that
Speaker 17: a person might deviate from writing their handwriting in a
Speaker 17: perfectly straight line, the size of the handwriting slope. And
Speaker 17: in addition to all that, the fact is that we
Speaker 17: all write a handwriting slightly differently according to the skill
Speaker 17: that we apply or because of the circumstances of how
Speaker 17: of the use of the particular pen or the surface,
Speaker 17: or all kinds of other things.
Speaker 1: Sally thinks at least some of the incoming passenger card
Speaker 1: was written by her mum. Definitely not all of it.
Speaker 1: But if it was Marian, could she have made that
Speaker 1: flight and called Sally from Tunbridge Wells as she claimed
Speaker 1: in the conversation she had with her daughter on August first.
Speaker 1: Our helper in the UK, Christina, says no. Checking with
Speaker 1: a plain spot of friend, she found the schedule for
Speaker 1: Cathe Pacific flight c X one zero three, which departed
Speaker 1: Hong Kong at eleven pm on August the first. Accounting
Speaker 1: for the transit time and the flight time from London,
Speaker 1: Marion could not have been in Tunbridge Wells when she
Speaker 1: spoke with Sally and been on that flight, raising more
Speaker 1: questions did Marian lie about what she was when she
Speaker 1: made the call?
Speaker 18: If so, for what reason?
Speaker 1: We know that New South Wales Police is in possession of.
Speaker 18: This original document.
Speaker 1: We first requested a copy of it late last year,
Speaker 1: but we're denied access under the Government Information Privacy Act
Speaker 1: or GIPPER, our freedom of information laws.
Speaker 18: We then took legal action in July.
Speaker 1: The matter was heard in the New South Wales Civil
Speaker 1: and Administrative Tribunal or ENCAT. We've waited months for a decision.
Speaker 18: Then we were.
Speaker 1: Advised one would be made by Friday, the thirteenth of December,
Speaker 1: but that did not occur, and upon inquiring again as
Speaker 1: to the reasons for the ongoing delay, the following Monday,
Speaker 1: we received this notification from the Registrar.
Speaker 19: I refer to previous advice about when parties could expect
Speaker 19: publication of the decision. In this case, I apologize the
Speaker 19: decision was not made available on the thirteenth of December
Speaker 19: twenty nineteen as estimated. Registry will advise you as soon
Speaker 19: as the decision is available.
Speaker 2: And more good news, our other GIPPER request has yielded results.
Speaker 2: This is the one for documents produced since November last year.
Speaker 2: Our previous request only included documents that went up to
Speaker 2: November twenty eighteen. On the third of December, the Information
Speaker 2: Privacy Commissioner or IPC ruled New South Wales Police makes
Speaker 2: a new decision.
Speaker 20: The review of the agency's information and decision concluded that
Speaker 20: its decision is not justified. The reviewer recommends, under section
Speaker 20: ninety three of the GOPA Act that the agency make
Speaker 20: a new decision by way of internal review.
Speaker 2: In other words, the new South Wales Police's decision not
Speaker 2: to release any documents on the basis they are connected
Speaker 2: with the active investigation into Marian's disappearance is being disputed
Speaker 2: and that partial release at least should be considered. The
Speaker 2: review also looked at the public interest in the case
Speaker 2: and found that there was no adequate explanation as to
Speaker 2: how access to the information could potentially prejudice or hinder
Speaker 2: an investigation or the enforcement of the law.
Speaker 1: In episode sixteen, Sally and her daughter Ella took a
Speaker 1: trip to Sydney to meet up with the new police
Speaker 1: officer in charge of Marion's case. So this is the
Speaker 1: new South Wales Police headquarters. This is basically the mothership
Speaker 1: for your the investigation into your mother's death. The first
Speaker 1: time you've been here. How did the meeting go with
Speaker 1: a new officer in charge?
Speaker 5: Really, Well, we've been here all day, so it's been
Speaker 5: a very big day. I think I've talked to the
Speaker 5: leg off the chair, but feeling extremely confident. They are
Speaker 5: very good. They're starting from scratch, they're going to look
Speaker 5: into every single thing, and we just were sort of
Speaker 5: joking about it. Then I just said to them, we're
Speaker 5: leaving no stone on turn and they're like, you vetch
Speaker 5: your So the new oice is completely dedicated to our case,
Speaker 5: which is great news. She has her own little team
Speaker 5: as well helping us, and I'm feeling really confident that
Speaker 5: we're going to start digging deep and looking into it
Speaker 5: the way its sugar been done, you know, twenty three
Speaker 5: years ago.
Speaker 4: So that's really good news.
Speaker 18: Can I get a high five?
Speaker 1: How does that sound?
Speaker 10: Does that sounds pretty good?
Speaker 1: I think because you've lived this your entire life, haven't you.
Speaker 19: Yeah.
Speaker 10: Well, I'm just glad that the podcast and everything that
Speaker 10: has finally led to something and that all of the
Speaker 10: effort hasn't been for nothing and is finally eventuated into,
Speaker 10: you know, getting this new outcome for it, which I
Speaker 10: think is great.
Speaker 1: How proud are you of your mum for pushing it
Speaker 1: this far.
Speaker 8: I'm very proud, very very proud.
Speaker 10: She's worked very hard to get here.
Speaker 18: So I think it's about time that.
Speaker 15: It gets to stage, because yeah, she just had a
Speaker 15: plane stage thing.
Speaker 1: Oh fantastic.
Speaker 13: I'm so happy to hear that. I'm so thrilled.
Speaker 18: That's fantastic.
Speaker 1: Did you get into the detail of things like the
Speaker 1: passenger manifest for the flights in and out that you're
Speaker 1: muntok No, we.
Speaker 5: Didn't really get into the nitty gritty of the information.
Speaker 5: I've just really touched on what I feel is important
Speaker 5: and pretty much they already had that information anyway from
Speaker 5: the phone calls that I've had, but I just put
Speaker 5: it into an easy email documentation dot point kind of
Speaker 5: situation so that they've got it. And they were just
Speaker 5: loving that because it's all, you know, in front of them.
Speaker 5: And I just said to them, you know what, this
Speaker 5: has been going on for twenty.
Speaker 21: Three years already.
Speaker 5: I don't want to sit here and just sit here
Speaker 5: and go, Okay, well you guys, good luck. You know,
Speaker 5: I'll let you do your thing. I want to be
Speaker 5: able to help as much as I can because I
Speaker 5: have a lot of information and I have a lot
Speaker 5: of detail that I wanted to share with them, you know,
Speaker 5: like errors in the freedom of information documentation, things like that.
Speaker 1: So we've done all of that today, and what about
Speaker 1: things like persons of interest And I'm thinking about mister
Speaker 1: Ramichel in Luxembourg.
Speaker 18: Was he brought up today?
Speaker 5: He's on the list.
Speaker 1: So they're eager to find out and look into all
Speaker 1: of the questions and the information we've uncovered about persons
Speaker 1: of interest.
Speaker 5: I would think so based on what I've told them today, given.
Speaker 1: The nature of a police homicide review that was done
Speaker 1: on this case and now this new officer in charge,
Speaker 1: was there any discussion about the forensic aspects of this
Speaker 1: case and testing DNA against remains that sort of thing
Speaker 1: that didn't come up today.
Speaker 5: Not yet. They've told me. They told me that the
Speaker 5: balloon of bone was negative, which was the other day.
Speaker 1: That was the bone from a woman found in the
Speaker 1: mid nineties in the Ballina region.
Speaker 5: Correct, Yeah, so I specifically asked for that bone to
Speaker 5: be tested against my DNA, which threw a negative result.
Speaker 2: But that's good.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is good. He ticked that box off. You know.
Speaker 5: That's what I say to people. It's not all it
Speaker 5: was about being negative. It's about me being able to say, well,
Speaker 5: this is something that needs to be investigated. Okay, let's
Speaker 5: tick it off and go right, we can move Yeah,
Speaker 5: that's right.
Speaker 1: It sounds like this initial meeting couldn't have gone any better.
Speaker 13: Is that the.
Speaker 5: I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of who
Speaker 5: we've got on the team and I'm really happy that
Speaker 5: we're at that point. I think, you know, it's a
Speaker 5: really great feeling to know that, you know, not only
Speaker 5: have I got you guys, but I've got them now
Speaker 5: as well. So I've got like this team of people
Speaker 5: fighting for answers and you know, everyone working for the
Speaker 5: same goal at the end of the day.
Speaker 13: I'm so happy to hear that sound.
Speaker 18: It's so good.
Speaker 1: Fingers crossed that they are and follow through on the
Speaker 1: hopes that have been generated today.
Speaker 2: Episode sixteen also saw the start of a petition by
Speaker 2: one of Sally's online supporters, Jen Marsh, calling on the
Speaker 2: New South Wales Police to put up a cash reward
Speaker 2: for any information that may lead to Marian or finding
Speaker 2: out what happened to her. And we were pushing for
Speaker 2: another more substantial search of an area at Armadale in
Speaker 2: northern New South Wales. If you remember, the only call
Speaker 2: ever made to crime Stoppers linked to Marian's case directed
Speaker 2: police to Armidale. However, the date of when that call
Speaker 2: was made is, like many dates in the police report, unreliable,
Speaker 2: but we do know it was not acted upon until
Speaker 2: twenty ten, when Detective Gary Sheen took over the case.
Speaker 2: The person who made that anonymous call to crime stoppers
Speaker 2: about Marian and the potential whereabouts of her body has
Speaker 2: never been found.
Speaker 1: But by episode sixteen, we had found out much more
Speaker 1: about this pilot. He was the father of a boy
Speaker 1: in Marion's class in the mid nineteen nineties, and we
Speaker 1: discovered was eleven years younger than Marian and used to
Speaker 1: work for the airline Cathe Pacific. We also learned that
Speaker 1: there was nothing to suggest there was anything more than
Speaker 1: a mild flirtation by Marian. While she has been searching
Speaker 1: so long for the mother she lost. As a result
Speaker 1: of this podcast, there is something Sally has gained. Her
Speaker 1: relationship with her dad Stewart has strengthened. She caught up
Speaker 1: with him on her recent trip to Sydney. Of their
Speaker 1: original family unit of four, there were only the two
Speaker 1: of them left, and they're making the most of it.
Speaker 9: Initially I didn't get too involved. I just thought it,
Speaker 9: let it go along. But now it is having an
Speaker 9: impact on me because it's impacting Sally, and it's frustrating
Speaker 9: because you think, Okay, how.
Speaker 1: Does it feel being part of something that millions of
Speaker 1: people now following, How has it affected you?
Speaker 22: Look?
Speaker 9: I just hoped that I can help Sally, and that's
Speaker 9: what people said, Well, why are you going to let
Speaker 9: Channel seven interview and said, because I'm supporting my daughter.
Speaker 1: In his initial interview for this podcast, Stewart was angry,
Speaker 1: and his comments about Marian drew a lot of criticism.
Speaker 18: There is still.
Speaker 1: Anger there, especially when he remembers things like his daughter's wedding.
Speaker 9: I was in the wedding car and Sally was looking
Speaker 9: around every tree to see if her mother was there.
Speaker 9: And I get upset thinking about that.
Speaker 1: That wedding day, I mean marrying, had organized the chapel
Speaker 1: at TSS for christ and Sally to marry in. Why
Speaker 1: was it so upsetting seeing your daughter looking around?
Speaker 9: Well, she's looking for a mother and she was really
Speaker 9: really believed that her mother was hiding her. And when
Speaker 9: she didn't turn up, it was like it must have
Speaker 9: gutted her. That affected me.
Speaker 1: How did it feel seeing your daughter have to go
Speaker 1: through that on the biggest day of her life.
Speaker 9: I was upsetting.
Speaker 1: He was upsetting, but his anger is mellowing as he
Speaker 1: learns more about how much his daughter Sally has suffered
Speaker 1: over the past twenty three years and the trials she has.
Speaker 5: Endured quite stressed, Like Dad has been quite stressed about
Speaker 5: me doing this, and he gets upset and he cries
Speaker 5: to me on the phone a lot. And you know,
Speaker 5: I think in that heat of that moment, he focused
Speaker 5: on what was driving his upset, I think, rather than
Speaker 5: thinking about the positive sides. Because he's told me many
Speaker 5: times about what a great relationship you have with Mum,
Speaker 5: and I've quite often said to him, I think they
Speaker 5: were too similar.
Speaker 13: Do you miss Marian now? Still in a way?
Speaker 9: I look, I look at photographs and I think, you know,
Speaker 9: there's a photograph of her standing at the front door
Speaker 9: at ligand the Macquarie Road, taught your friend and I
Speaker 9: can remember that like it was yesterday. The last time
Speaker 9: I saw Marion was at Sally's engagement party with Allen
Speaker 9: was with me. She took Owen to see his grandparents
Speaker 9: up at Colownbra.
Speaker 1: Yeah that photo, that lovely photo, will be all together.
Speaker 9: And yeah that was that was it?
Speaker 13: And did you get on with Marion's parents, Jackie?
Speaker 18: Oh excellent.
Speaker 9: Matter of fact, I've got Christmas cards from Colleen just
Speaker 9: read like until she died and calling the Stuart Browner
Speaker 9: Squire and she'd put really nice notes in there, and
Speaker 9: she actually when I was up there? When was that?
Speaker 9: I was up there and there but all the girls,
Speaker 9: the sisters were there, and Colleen pulled her to one
Speaker 9: side and she said, do you know where Marian is?
Speaker 9: I said, I don't know. She told me she really
Speaker 9: missed her.
Speaker 1: If Marian did know that Owen had taken his own life,
Speaker 1: how would that have affected her?
Speaker 9: Do you think I'd say that would have destroyed her?
Speaker 1: It was Marian prone to going down and making large
Speaker 1: cash withdrawals? Was she very savvy and financially.
Speaker 9: I'd never experienced that.
Speaker 1: What about in terms of her knowledge of international travel
Speaker 1: and identification documents? Was she a master schemer? Because, to
Speaker 1: believe the police version, she was an elaborate schemer.
Speaker 18: I I don't believe that.
Speaker 13: Why don't you believe that?
Speaker 9: Just the way Marian was. Marian was a bit hair
Speaker 9: brand in a lot of ways, but she wasn't.
Speaker 13: She wasn't a schemer. Do you think she could have
Speaker 13: pulled off what the police station had?
Speaker 9: Absolutely not.
Speaker 13: So what does that then mean? Where does that leave us?
Speaker 9: There's a link somewhere, and we've got to find that link.
Speaker 1: It's been a while since our last road trip, so
Speaker 1: I head off south of Wollongong, three hours drive from
Speaker 1: Sydney to the tiny town of Jambourou. More specifically, it's
Speaker 1: iconic pub, The Watering Hole there is run by family
Speaker 1: members of Marion's first husband, Johnny Warren, Australia's soccarou Great,
Speaker 1: our first ever World Cup football captain, and there's plenty
Speaker 1: of memorabilia on display in the pub. Johnny's family have
Speaker 1: been great supporters of Sally's. Like her, they want to
Speaker 1: know what happened to his first wife. Sally and her
Speaker 1: daughter Ella came along too, and we caught up with
Speaker 1: Johnny's brother Ross, his nephew Jamie, and Johnny's former best
Speaker 1: mate John Economus.
Speaker 18: Can I Gang, h.
Speaker 13: Could I Ross?
Speaker 1: It's December second, twenty nineteen. We've been doing this for
Speaker 1: more than a year now, Sally, more than a year. Jamie,
Speaker 1: When did you first hear about the lady vanishes?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 23: Gee, it must have been a twelve months or so ago. Now.
Speaker 23: We were contacted by Allison and Allison explained what was
Speaker 23: what the situation was, and we said, yes, we're just
Speaker 23: so happy to be able to help and whatever we
Speaker 23: can do to help, we.
Speaker 13: Will What did you make of it when you heard
Speaker 13: what we were doing.
Speaker 23: It was an incredible, incredible thing that you're doing. For
Speaker 23: somebody to be wondering for all these years, you know,
Speaker 23: where's my mum?
Speaker 1: What's happened to my mum?
Speaker 23: It was just a fantastic thing that you're doing. And
Speaker 23: for me to put myself in Sally's position and the
Speaker 23: family's position, it was just incredible that you're doing something
Speaker 23: on this scale to be able to find out what's
Speaker 23: actually happened.
Speaker 13: Here we are reunited with the family of the man
Speaker 13: your mum was married to.
Speaker 18: First.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jamie, can you tell Sally and Marion's granddaughter Ella
Speaker 1: what Johnny was like?
Speaker 13: What do you remember Johnny?
Speaker 22: Yeah?
Speaker 23: Well, growing up, he was always somebody that I looked
Speaker 23: up to. He was a massive hero of mine. But
Speaker 23: he was just he was a lovely, lovely guy. He
Speaker 23: was very friendly, he was very interested in what you
Speaker 23: were doing.
Speaker 12: He was very humble.
Speaker 23: Obviously he was he was a soccer superstar, and it's
Speaker 23: somebody that's that I wanted to be like Uncle John.
Speaker 23: But he was somebody that you could just meet and
Speaker 23: within five minutes of meeting him, it'd be like you'd
Speaker 23: known him your whole life. I've witnessed that on many
Speaker 23: occasions throughout his life, observing him, that he'd run into
Speaker 23: somebody or that they'd say, oh goody, you're Johnny Warren,
Speaker 23: aren't you, And they'd start talking and you know, within
Speaker 23: a few minutes it was like they were long lost friend.
Speaker 23: So he was just a lovely man and and somebody
Speaker 23: who you know, we all respected and looked up to greatly,
Speaker 23: and he was highly He was just such a valuable
Speaker 23: part of our family and a very special man.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: My mum always spoke very highly of John and loved
Speaker 5: him very much. So he's always Yeah, every time I
Speaker 5: met him, it was, you know, it was just like
Speaker 5: he was a top blow.
Speaker 1: So John, when you knew Marian, she didn't have any kids.
Speaker 1: Her and John didn't have any kids. Do you know
Speaker 1: if they were trying to have kids?
Speaker 22: Yeah, yeah, they were whenever he was in Australia because
Speaker 22: he was touring all the time.
Speaker 21: Yeah.
Speaker 22: Well he had two marriages, you know, soccer and marrying.
Speaker 1: Which one did he love the most?
Speaker 22: Hard to separate them?
Speaker 1: And was that something that you felt or can you
Speaker 1: tell me if that was something that really ended up
Speaker 1: becoming the main obstacle that those torn loyalties between his career,
Speaker 1: which was going game busters and his love.
Speaker 13: For Marian, which you told us was very genuine.
Speaker 22: Well, he was captain of his club, captain of New
Speaker 22: South Wales, captain of Australia. He had a lot on
Speaker 22: a lot on overseas strips. Yeah, yeah, it was a
Speaker 22: significant fact.
Speaker 1: Did you think when they got married that they'd go
Speaker 1: the distance, that they'd stay together.
Speaker 22: I'm the one that brought them together, you know, I'm
Speaker 22: the culprit. I'm the guilty one.
Speaker 18: John.
Speaker 13: How much do you miss your mate? How much do
Speaker 13: you miss John?
Speaker 12: Too much?
Speaker 13: Even now?
Speaker 22: Yep, it's only fifteen years.
Speaker 5: Any next question, you're very passionate about it. I love
Speaker 5: that he would love you for that.
Speaker 12: Yeah, he would.
Speaker 5: And it's nice to have matshit like that.
Speaker 2: So okay, And that's the last time we got to
Speaker 2: speak with John Economus. He died in October twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: In episode six, we also spoke with Australian journalist and
Speaker 2: businesswoman Itita Buttrose, who presented Marian with the Teacher of
Speaker 2: the Year award in nineteen ninety six. Just a matter
Speaker 2: of months before Marian disappeared. Remarkably, Eita kept a copy
Speaker 2: of the very speech she wrote for that ceremony.
Speaker 9: It's amazing, isn't it.
Speaker 21: I am said the function and I spoke at it.
Speaker 21: I've kept all the speeches I've given over the years,
Speaker 21: so I made one on file. And when I looked back,
Speaker 21: I thought, my word, teachers had it tough. Yeah, you
Speaker 21: had to me had a lot of resilience when your
Speaker 21: teacher then you probably still do. But yes, said your
Speaker 21: mother was a teacher at that time.
Speaker 1: Ita is a legend in Australian publishing and journalism, a
Speaker 1: household name immortalized in pop songs. She has received numerous honors,
Speaker 1: including Australian of the Year, and was herself a pioneering
Speaker 1: single mother who rose to become of the Woman's weekly magazine.
Speaker 1: Imagine Marion Barter receiving her Teacher's Excellence Award at the
Speaker 1: Hilton Hotel ballroom in front of hundreds of officials and
Speaker 1: colleagues listening to Eide bart Rose make this remarkable speech
Speaker 1: about the profession she loved and had devoted her life.
Speaker 21: To ladies and gentlemen. Everyone has their down moments. I
Speaker 21: know I do. When I need a little inspiration, I
Speaker 21: turned to some paragraphs that one of my first editors
Speaker 21: gave me. They have stood the test of time, and
Speaker 21: they go like this. Last rewards appear at the end
Speaker 21: and not the beginning of the journey. There is no
Speaker 21: way I can foresee how many steps it will take
Speaker 21: me to reach my goal. I will perhaps meet failure
Speaker 21: at the southern step, and yet success will be there
Speaker 21: hidden behind the last bend in the road. I will
Speaker 21: never know how close I am to it. If I
Speaker 21: don't turn the corner, I will always take one more step.
Speaker 21: If this doesn't work, I will take another, and then another.
Speaker 21: One step at a time is not so very difficult.
Speaker 21: I will persevere until our succeed.
Speaker 2: Words from that speech so many years ago now seem
Speaker 2: applicable for Sally Leyden's journey today.
Speaker 1: By episode seventeen, the long wait after our end cat
Speaker 1: hearing had finally yielded results. We'd acted on Sally's behalf
Speaker 1: at the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal trying
Speaker 1: to get access to documents about Marion in the police
Speaker 1: investigation file, which had been heavily redacted when we applied
Speaker 1: for them through freedom of information laws. While we didn't
Speaker 1: get everything we'd hoped for, we did get some new information.
Speaker 2: I've been trawling through, and thanks to the released documents,
Speaker 2: we now have a much more descriptive case file, which
Speaker 2: reveals in part the extent of the investigation and clears
Speaker 2: up some of the past anomalies which we've been trying
Speaker 2: to grapple with. What they show are four periods of
Speaker 2: activity on the case. Firstly in nineteen ninety seven when
Speaker 2: Sally initially reported Marion missing, then in two thousand and
Speaker 2: seven when Sally went back to the police because ten
Speaker 2: more years had gone by and there was still nothing
Speaker 2: from her mother. It was at this time Marion was
Speaker 2: finally referred to the Missing Persons Unit the MPU and
Speaker 2: put on the new South Wales Missing Persons Register. More
Speaker 2: activity in two thousand and nine, and then again in
Speaker 2: twenty eleven, when significant pressure was placed back on Byron
Speaker 2: Bay Detectives to clear the matter up. It's important to
Speaker 2: note that the police file is also riddled with errors,
Speaker 2: and not just minor typos. For this catch up episode,
Speaker 2: we're not going into all the details of what we
Speaker 2: discovered as a result of the ENCAT decision. If you
Speaker 2: want to revisit, just replay episode seventeen.
Speaker 1: We also spoke with forensic linguist Associate Professor Georgina Hetton
Speaker 1: to determine whether there was anything we were missing in
Speaker 1: Marion's final correspondence to family and friends. Perhaps there was
Speaker 1: something more in those postcards and letters that we weren't seeing.
Speaker 6: I was asked to look at whether or not these
Speaker 6: letters that Marion produced might have been influenced in some way.
Speaker 6: So the question for me was, were there some ways
Speaker 6: in which I could identify in the language some indications
Speaker 6: that Marian was writing under the influence of somebody else. So,
Speaker 6: in terms of the kind of thing that we do
Speaker 6: in linguistics, we would need some kind of method to
Speaker 6: analyze the language of the letters and to identify whether
Speaker 6: there's some difference between the structure and the use of
Speaker 6: language in that letter that was written, particularly the long
Speaker 6: letter that was written in nineteen ninety seven from England,
Speaker 6: whether there's a difference between that and the earlier texts
Speaker 6: that were provided, which was mainly a text from a
Speaker 6: birthday card. So it's usually we're looking at things that
Speaker 6: the person writing the letter would not really be conscious
Speaker 6: of when they're writing. It's quite easy to manipulate your vocabulary,
Speaker 6: but it's much harder to manipulate something like the grammatical
Speaker 6: structures of your sentences. Most people are not really conscious
Speaker 6: of that when they're writing. So those are the kinds
Speaker 6: of things that we're usually analyzing, and there are some
Speaker 6: systems for analyzing that kind of thing, but I've got
Speaker 6: to say it's not very robust. You know, we have
Speaker 6: a lot of difficulty in finding something like the equivalent
Speaker 6: of DNA or a fingerprint in people's writing. And I
Speaker 6: guess the other thing about authorship is if we think
Speaker 6: about Marion's letters, I mean, we're not saying that she
Speaker 6: didn't write them. We're saying that she might have written
Speaker 6: them under somebody else's influence. We're not suggesting that somebody
Speaker 6: else wrote the nineteen ninety seven letter. You know, there's
Speaker 6: no doubt that she wrote it.
Speaker 2: However, forensic linguistics is not an exact science.
Speaker 6: The other thing that might have been useful would be
Speaker 6: something like some of the tools that we have for
Speaker 6: light detection. If we don't have a method that can
Speaker 6: distinguish between the linguistic features of the text, like I
Speaker 6: talked about, a sort of got medical features based on authorship,
Speaker 6: you know, is there something else that we've apply to
Speaker 6: the analysis to identify a shift between the writing in
Speaker 6: the earlier text the birthday card, and the writing in
Speaker 6: the nineteen ninety seven text. So, for example, if Marian
Speaker 6: was talking about her plans for her travel over the
Speaker 6: coming months and the fact that she might be staying
Speaker 6: in England, but we know that really she was intending
Speaker 6: to come back to Australia almost immediately afterwards, then there's
Speaker 6: something not matching there. What she knows is going to happen,
Speaker 6: which is coming back to Australia, and what she's talking
Speaker 6: about happening, which is going traveling in Europe and so on,
Speaker 6: they don't match up. So in one way we could say, well,
Speaker 6: perhaps there's the falsehood there. Of course, there's a few
Speaker 6: holes in that argument. One is, if she came back
Speaker 6: to Australia as we believe she did, she might not
Speaker 6: have knowned that was going to happen. She might have
Speaker 6: been writing that letter in nineteen ninety seven with no
Speaker 6: malicious desire to miss lead the reader.
Speaker 2: The analysis is further frustrated by the type of meaningful
Speaker 2: correspondence available from Marion at the time. If she kept
Speaker 2: a diary or something that allowed her to write in
Speaker 2: any depth, more educated conclusions could be drawn about her
Speaker 2: situation at the time.
Speaker 6: One thing that I did find, I guess interesting at
Speaker 6: a qualitative level was that the text does show there's
Speaker 6: a bit of evidence about a sense of trepidation about
Speaker 6: the trip to Europe, and I don't think it takes
Speaker 6: it really a linguist or even a forensic linguist to
Speaker 6: identify this. She says, I'm staying for several days to
Speaker 6: have a good look and explore and a bit of
Speaker 6: a rest before tackling Europe. You know, there's some it's
Speaker 6: that kind of odd way to talk about something that
Speaker 6: she would oessensibly be really excited about, you know, tackling Europe.
Speaker 6: Then again, you know, maybe she's just a little bit
Speaker 6: more concerned about traveling in a foreign environment. You know,
Speaker 6: home counties England there's pretty safe, whereas traveling to continental
Speaker 6: Europe might have been a little bit more threatening for
Speaker 6: her for just fairly innocuous reasons, not to do with
Speaker 6: anyone that she was concerned about. She'd also been expressing
Speaker 6: all of these worries about having too much luggage and
Speaker 6: maybe that was weighing heavily on her mind, if you'll
Speaker 6: excuse the pun by the.
Speaker 18: Sound of it.
Speaker 2: Also, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that there
Speaker 2: was anyone influencing her writing per se, But we can
Speaker 2: see that her behavior or at least what she's feeling
Speaker 2: and everything is consistent in the two years separating those
Speaker 2: that correspondence. By looks of it, it doesn't seem out
Speaker 2: of the ordinary, that you know, with the way that
Speaker 2: she writes.
Speaker 1: Several months elapsed between the release of episode seventeen and eighteen,
Speaker 1: as we were in a holding pattern while we waited
Speaker 1: to hear whether an inquest would be held. The police
Speaker 1: were provided another two month extension to complique there brief
Speaker 1: of evidence. And the COVID nineteen pandemic had engulfed the
Speaker 1: world and many cities and countries were in lockdown.
Speaker 2: But our super Sliss Journey was still making discoveries. She
Speaker 2: managed to acquire a copy of Marion's outgoing passenger card,
Speaker 2: the one that was filled out the day Marion first
Speaker 2: left Australia for her trip overseas. Here's what we learned
Speaker 2: back then. This card also came via an application to
Speaker 2: the National Archives of Australia. It is dated twenty second
Speaker 2: of June nineteen ninety seven. Her name is written as
Speaker 2: Florabella Natalia Marion remical under current marital status. The box
Speaker 2: divorced has been ticked. More interestingly, she's completed the section
Speaker 2: for a resident who plans to depart Australia permanently. It
Speaker 2: says she's been in Australia for fifty two years, even
Speaker 2: though she was three and a bit months shy of
Speaker 2: her fifty second birthday. And where does it say she
Speaker 2: was moving to? Luxembourg spelled incorrectly as lux ian Berg
Speaker 2: after the word Europe has been crossed out. As for
Speaker 2: where she planned to disembark, she'd written England, but it's
Speaker 2: also crossed out and replaced with S Korea meaning South Korea.
Speaker 2: Presumably both lots of crossing out were done by a
Speaker 2: customs officer, as Luxembourg and South Korea appear to be
Speaker 2: in the same handwriting and it's not consistent with Marion's.
Speaker 2: Without overreaching, we can conclude it was Marian on both
Speaker 2: the flight leaving Australia at the end of June nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven and returning at the beginning of August nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven. It was premeditated. Marian had planned in advance
Speaker 2: to go to Luxembourg to live. It was not a
Speaker 2: snap decision made during her trip. Marian did not plan
Speaker 2: to return to Australia, and when she did five weeks later,
Speaker 2: it was only supposed to be temporary. You may recall
Speaker 2: from earlier episodes that Marian's passport never left Australia again,
Speaker 2: and as far as we know, it's never been located.
Speaker 2: The last postcard we have from Marian was dated July
Speaker 2: seventh and it was sent from Hastings. There was another
Speaker 2: postcard Sally received from London, but she can't make out
Speaker 2: the postage stamp and whether it reads July fourth or fourteenth, regardless,
Speaker 2: it leaves about three weeks before Marion apparently headed back
Speaker 2: to Australia via Hong Kong. So what did she do
Speaker 2: in that time?
Speaker 5: For those of you who don't know the UK very well,
Speaker 5: if you trace her steps all the way down to
Speaker 5: Brighton where we finished following where she'd had been, there's
Speaker 5: actually the tunnel just up at Hastings there and we
Speaker 5: do have a postcard from Hastings and the tunnel is
Speaker 5: where you go across to Europe. So I've had plenty
Speaker 5: of people tell us you can go in that tunnel
Speaker 5: without actually hating to go through customs or any border
Speaker 5: security or anything like that. So it would have been
Speaker 5: very simple for her to jump across to Luxembourg and
Speaker 5: go and do what she supposedly said she was doing
Speaker 5: and getting married and living in Luxembourg. But that makes
Speaker 5: no sense to me that she'd be in Hong Kong
Speaker 5: flying back from Hong Kong two and a half weeks later.
Speaker 5: We know that she definitely went back to London because
Speaker 5: I have date stamp from there, but there's no definitive
Speaker 5: in that two and a half weeks. We don't know
Speaker 5: where she went, or what she was doing, or who
Speaker 5: she was with.
Speaker 2: For Sally, the discovery of the outgoing passenger card is bittersweet.
Speaker 5: I was showing my daughter and she instantly said, so
Speaker 5: she wanted to go missing. She deliberately wanted to go
Speaker 5: missing because she said that she's leaving permanently to go
Speaker 5: and live in Luxembourg and changed her name. I said
Speaker 5: to her, that's an interesting instant take on your feelings
Speaker 5: looking at that, because it's my belief that the Nissoplast
Speaker 5: police particularly have looked at that document and instantly gone, oh, well,
Speaker 5: she deliberately wanted to go missing.
Speaker 24: You know.
Speaker 5: Even Brian said, you know, oh, she lied to you,
Speaker 5: and I said, well, she didn't lie to me really,
Speaker 5: because she did say to me when she was leaving
Speaker 5: that she had her shipping container that she put all
Speaker 5: her belongings into. And she had said to me quite clearly,
Speaker 5: if I decided to stay overseas and teach, I will
Speaker 5: get you to send over the shipping container to me.
Speaker 5: So there was always that thought process in the back
Speaker 5: of my mind that she potentially could be moving over
Speaker 5: there permanently. And we didn't have a problem with that.
Speaker 5: I mean, I was already established, Owe was established, and
Speaker 5: you know we didn't. It wasn't like we were at
Speaker 5: school and needed our mum. She was an older lady
Speaker 5: and you know, self sufficient to do whatever she wanted
Speaker 5: to do in life, and we had to be accepting
Speaker 5: of that. In my opinion, you know, I would if
Speaker 5: I said to her I was going to leave over
Speaker 5: and go and live overseas, I'd hate for her to
Speaker 5: sit there and make me feel bad about not wanting
Speaker 5: to go and fulfill my dream, so there's no right
Speaker 5: for me to do the same thing to her just
Speaker 5: because she's my mum. So there was always a take
Speaker 5: on that she might not come back, that she might
Speaker 5: stay there. But at the same time, I didn't know
Speaker 5: Luxembourg was in the picture. I had no idea about that.
Speaker 5: I had no idea that she had changed her name.
Speaker 5: And we've done some more research on the name as well.
Speaker 5: And if you actually are married in Luxembourg, the law
Speaker 5: states that you keep your maiden name. So she had
Speaker 5: married a ramchurl over in Luxembourg and had gone over
Speaker 5: as Marian Barter, she would have still been Barter when
Speaker 5: she was over there after she got married. So we
Speaker 5: sort of worked that out after looking and researching the
Speaker 5: laws in Luxembourg, and thought maybe it was the case
Speaker 5: that she wanted to change her name. She wanted to
Speaker 5: be associated with her partner, her new partner, so therefore
Speaker 5: she changed her name before she left. But what doesn't
Speaker 5: make any sense to me at all is the fact
Speaker 5: that she took all her luggage with her. You hear
Speaker 5: Leslie saying one of her best friends who put her
Speaker 5: on the bus and was the last known person to
Speaker 5: see her. How much luggage she had and how they
Speaker 5: were laughing about how much luggage she had. She writes
Speaker 5: in her postcards and her letters to us about how
Speaker 5: stupid it was for her to take so much luggage,
Speaker 5: and how she had store luggage at Heathrow Airport and
Speaker 5: she couldn't fit it in the car that she'd hired
Speaker 5: to travel around Sussex area and Kent while she was
Speaker 5: exploring the UK. So to me, it doesn't make any
Speaker 5: sense that someone would take all of that luggage with
Speaker 5: them and then come back within five weeks after you've
Speaker 5: just ticked that you're permanently leaving and you're not coming
Speaker 5: back and you're living in Luxembourg. And it also doesn't
Speaker 5: make any sense to me that she went on a
Speaker 5: Korean Air flight, which is this is all new information
Speaker 5: for us that we were able to get through Geeper
Speaker 5: and then through confirmed on the outgoing card. So she
Speaker 5: flew out on a Korean Air flight on the twenty
Speaker 5: second of June nine to ninety seven. She then had
Speaker 5: to get off in Korea. She then had to get
Speaker 5: on another flight, which we're not familiar with because once
Speaker 5: the understanding that I have and I've been told with
Speaker 5: Interpol is that they only keep records for your bound
Speaker 5: flight and your incoming flight. Anything happens outside of that
Speaker 5: realm falls under Interpol, and they only hold their records
Speaker 5: for seven years. So it's unlikely that we will know
Speaker 5: what dates she left Japan to go to the UK
Speaker 5: and how she got to Hong Kong, because that is
Speaker 5: all a bit of a mystery for us, unless Interpol
Speaker 5: miraculously have that information, which I'm sure that oh I
Speaker 5: see will be all over. But it is interesting to
Speaker 5: me that my mum wasn't short of money, so I
Speaker 5: don't understand. And in my conversations with Korean Air, I
Speaker 5: rang them and asked them the question. I had the
Speaker 5: flight number, and he said that's still a current flight
Speaker 5: number today. It's been operating for a long time, over
Speaker 5: twenty years. And he said it's a really popular option
Speaker 5: for people to get to Japan because they bounce over
Speaker 5: to South Korea and then they get on a different
Speaker 5: flight and it's only an hour transit to Japan from there.
Speaker 5: But for the fact that she had so much luggage
Speaker 5: and she would have had to pull all that off
Speaker 5: the flight, go through baggage, go through customs, get onto
Speaker 5: a different flight wasn't like a connecting flight, so that
Speaker 5: would have been a real struggle for her. I would
Speaker 5: have thought so to go to Japan for a couple
Speaker 5: of days and then go back into the UK. And
Speaker 5: the reason we know she was in Japan is because
Speaker 5: you might remember, I have a letter that's on the
Speaker 5: hotel notepad and an envelope from the hotel from where
Speaker 5: she was staying in Japan in Narita, So I kind
Speaker 5: of wonder about that sort of thing as well, Like
Speaker 5: is at her leaving little stones for us to track
Speaker 5: her and go I was here, I was here, This
Speaker 5: is where I was. I went to Sally's Craft in
Speaker 5: Alfreston and we were able to go there. We went
Speaker 5: to the cat shop in Brighton. So it's like she's
Speaker 5: left a little trail for us and we've done heaps
Speaker 5: of work in trying to work all of that out
Speaker 5: as well and work out where she was and what
Speaker 5: dates she's from the postcards that we have. Lucky that
Speaker 5: I've kept some, you know, sad that others haven't kept theirs,
Speaker 5: because that would have been amazing information to have.
Speaker 2: In episode nineteen, we could finally reveal the news we've
Speaker 2: all been hoping for Here's how we announced it. It's
Speaker 2: happening more than twenty three years since she hopped on
Speaker 2: a plane for the trip of a lifetime and vanished.
Speaker 1: More than half a lifetime since daughter Sally last heard
Speaker 1: her mother's voice on the phone.
Speaker 2: We are pleased and relieved to announce that a coronial
Speaker 2: inquiry slash inquest will be held into the nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: seven disappearance of Marion Barter. On August sixth, twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Crown Solicitor's Office sent the following
Speaker 2: email to Sally Laden.
Speaker 25: Dear miss Leyden in Quest into the disappearance of Marian Barter,
Speaker 25: also known as Florabella Remacle. I'm writing to advise you
Speaker 25: that the State Coroner has confirmed that an inquest into
Speaker 25: the disappearance of your mother Marian will be held, and
Speaker 25: that the State Coroner will preside over the hearing. At
Speaker 25: this stage, I anticipate that the hearing will take place
Speaker 25: in the second half of twenty twenty one. However, no
Speaker 25: formal listing arrangements have yet been made. I also confirm
Speaker 25: that this information may be made public. I understand that
Speaker 25: you would like a copy of the brief evidence as
Speaker 25: soon as possible, and every effort will be made to
Speaker 25: make this available to you at the earliest opportunity. Yours, faithfully,
Speaker 25: Sarah Nija, Solicitor the Crown Solicitor.
Speaker 2: For Sally. The announcement of an inquest is validation for
Speaker 2: never giving up on her Mum.
Speaker 5: I've been told a few times, and we've spoken about
Speaker 5: that a few times, that it is going to inquest.
Speaker 5: But for me, in my heart, I wasn't satisfied until
Speaker 5: I got it in writing that the coroner was going
Speaker 5: to take it to in quest.
Speaker 2: It is also a bittersweet.
Speaker 5: I feel like it's a double edged swords. I don't
Speaker 5: know anybody that I've met who's happy or excited about
Speaker 5: going to in quest into the death of their loved
Speaker 5: one or potential murder.
Speaker 2: However, knowing an inquest is now definite does strengthen her resolve.
Speaker 5: This is my chance that someone is actually recognizing that
Speaker 5: my mum is actually missing. And when you've been dealing
Speaker 5: with what I've been dealing with, I've had Mum's family
Speaker 5: who have told me relentlessly that she's not missing and
Speaker 5: just leave it alone and let it lie. And you know,
Speaker 5: she wanted to start her own life. I've had the
Speaker 5: police and the detectives tell me she changed her name.
Speaker 5: She wanted to go missing. You know, she's missing on
Speaker 5: her own account. Yet no one can find her, and
Speaker 5: no one can verify any of their claims. You know,
Speaker 5: only three years ago, I was pretty much knocking my
Speaker 5: head against the wall, thinking this is ridiculous. I actually
Speaker 5: don't know what to do because no one was taking
Speaker 5: me seriously and no one was listening to me. When
Speaker 5: I was saying that she's a missing person. I was
Speaker 5: just getting doors shut in my face constantly, and everyone
Speaker 5: was putting it in the two hard basket.
Speaker 2: She's hoping this will bring me answers she's been seeking
Speaker 2: for so long, not just for herself but her family.
Speaker 5: I feel if we go to a coronial in quest
Speaker 5: and they do everything in their power to try and
Speaker 5: find the answers and they still can't do that, I
Speaker 5: can rest myself and go I've done everything I possibly
Speaker 5: could have done to find her.
Speaker 2: In episode nineteen, we shared the news of the inquest
Speaker 2: with lots of Sally supporters, including the Levison family. Think
Speaker 2: I wanted to let you know that we finally have
Speaker 2: the inquest.
Speaker 11: I can't express my delight how happy in police Land
Speaker 11: for Sally and the family that they achieved. That that's
Speaker 11: been a tremendous acknowledgment of all the work they're put
Speaker 11: in and what it would mean now that the inquest
Speaker 11: unlike a court trial, the inquest is inquisitorial and not
Speaker 11: adversarial like a trial. And the big distinction is that
Speaker 11: the inquest is a fact on the exercise. The coroner
Speaker 11: is now tasked. We're finding if there was a death,
Speaker 11: the manner and cause of death. And important as well
Speaker 11: is that the in the South Wales the Evidence Act
Speaker 11: doesn't apply, which means that unlike in the criminal trial,
Speaker 11: I'll use that as an example. You know, we lost
Speaker 11: a good quarter the time with the things arguing what
Speaker 11: evidence would bemitted to be heard of the jury and
Speaker 11: what wouldn't and that wastes so much time to list
Speaker 11: here with everything, it's open sight everything.
Speaker 1: We also informed Rebecca CONTs, who used to work on
Speaker 1: missing persons cases with the Australian Federal Police.
Speaker 2: Hey, there's one thing I didn't tell the other day
Speaker 2: because I wanted to let you know I am recording now,
Speaker 2: so I wanted to get your action without you already knowing.
Speaker 2: But we have a bit of good news. I don't
Speaker 2: know whether sales told you yet.
Speaker 3: But I has been that on the back of my neck.
Speaker 3: Tell me you found it.
Speaker 2: Oh God, I wish, I wish, but it's not that
Speaker 2: good it is, but it is still really good news.
Speaker 2: We are getting an inquest.
Speaker 7: Oh well, that's the next best thing.
Speaker 3: Okay, awesome New South Wales.
Speaker 2: Or Queensland in New South Wales.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, good.
Speaker 2: There are so many outcomes well, things that have come
Speaker 2: out of inquests. There's been further investigations and everything. So
Speaker 2: it's a very exciting time. And as someone who's been
Speaker 2: a big supporter right from the very beginning back, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm sure as you know that everything will be laid
Speaker 2: out to bear.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I can tell you now I've shared the
Speaker 3: posts as far and wise as I can every time
Speaker 3: there's been a new episode released and things like that,
Speaker 3: and I've seen the interest in the podcast and the
Speaker 3: amount of people that have logged on and had looked
Speaker 3: at and heard it grow expidentially, I've had people coming
Speaker 3: out of the woodworks that have heard me on it,
Speaker 3: that know me from previous lives and it's blown me
Speaker 3: away how far it's reached all across the world. So
Speaker 3: it's great.
Speaker 2: Great And thirteen years after being removed as the face
Speaker 2: of Missing Persons Week, Sally Layden was invited to front
Speaker 2: the campaign for Missing Person's Week in Australia in twenty twenty.
Speaker 7: I look when I got the phone call to say
Speaker 7: that Sally was or her mother's case was the highlighted
Speaker 7: profile for Missing Persons Week this year for twenty twenty.
Speaker 7: I nobody was more elated about it than me because
Speaker 7: it was well over due by at.
Speaker 2: At least ten years, thirteen years, thirteen years. Two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven was your one, wasn't it?
Speaker 18: So twenty twenty it.
Speaker 24: Was unfortunately for me not be with the AFP and
Speaker 24: actually being away from Camber myself. I would have done
Speaker 24: easy to have been there just to morally support her.
Speaker 24: But I was so glad that I knew it and
Speaker 24: they were send her a message of support. Our profiles
Speaker 24: when I say out the Austrangeentil Police campaigns reached a
Speaker 24: massive audience now with social media, and you know that's
Speaker 24: profile of Marian and the information around her case will
Speaker 24: go far and wide across the world as well as
Speaker 24: just domestically here in Australia. So thank goodness, although thirteen
Speaker 24: years too late, it was great to still get that folk.
Speaker 3: It's on the cave.
Speaker 2: Eight four hundred and forty two days ago, and this
Speaker 2: time she got to have her say on behalf of
Speaker 2: all of the families searching for missing loved ones. This
Speaker 2: is part of the speech.
Speaker 5: The thirty eight thousand individuals that are reported missing to
Speaker 5: police on Australia each year, there are only twenty six
Speaker 5: one hundred that remain who are regarded as long term missing,
Speaker 5: meaning longer than three months. A smaller number falls into
Speaker 5: yet another category, which is that of plus fifteen years
Speaker 5: missing without a trace. These cases make up more than
Speaker 5: sixty percent of the current long term registered missing persons
Speaker 5: here in Australia. Many people tell me how they pray
Speaker 5: and hope that I will one day have closure. Closure
Speaker 5: to those of us in the missing world is not
Speaker 5: always our reality. Rather, it's best described as ambiguous loss,
Speaker 5: a loss that occurs without closure or clear understanding. This
Speaker 5: is the kind of loss leaves a person searching for
Speaker 5: answers and thus complicates the delays the process of grieving
Speaker 5: and resulting in unre sol grief. Have you ever done
Speaker 5: a puzzle. It may have taken you days, even weeks
Speaker 5: to finish, but you get to the end and you're
Speaker 5: missing that last piece. Frustration kicks in, then anger, before
Speaker 5: sadness or the realization that all your hard work you
Speaker 5: cannot complete your puzzle. You have failed. That is what
Speaker 5: my life feels like. You come up with a new theory,
Speaker 5: you spend hours, days, weeks, months, even years putting the
Speaker 5: puzzle pieces together, but more often than not, you're simply
Speaker 5: left with the missing piece of that puzzle, countless hours
Speaker 5: mulling over every finer detail that could be the missing
Speaker 5: piece to what has been your biggest puzzle you've ever undertaken.
Speaker 2: Under tight COVID nineteen restrictions. At the beginning of August,
Speaker 2: Sally and her nineteen year old daughter Ella traveled south
Speaker 2: to Canberra for the event.
Speaker 5: Because it's quite daunting walking into a room and you've
Speaker 5: got ministers and commissioners of Police and Federal Police and
Speaker 5: Federal Plasee everywhere in uniform. But I will say that
Speaker 5: all the people down there were absolutely beautiful. I've thanked
Speaker 5: Trish Halligan from the head of the coordination down there
Speaker 5: for inviting us to come down, and her staff like amazing,
Speaker 5: just such beautiful people, So it made us feel so welcome,
Speaker 5: and I was really quite honored to be asked to
Speaker 5: come down and be the face of long term missing
Speaker 5: persons because for me, as much as my story is
Speaker 5: what I've been telling as it's rolled on, I feel
Speaker 5: I can be a bit of a voice for other
Speaker 5: people and if we can push harder, we will get answers.
Speaker 5: And for those people who don't have a voice, I'm
Speaker 5: trying my hardest to make that voice, not just for me,
Speaker 5: but for everybody who's in the same situation.
Speaker 1: At the event, the Australian Federal Police Commissioner rhes Kershaw
Speaker 1: announced a three point six million dollar program to DNA
Speaker 1: test human bones in a bid to solve long term
Speaker 1: missing person's can These are bones that have been found
Speaker 1: fifteen or more years ago in various places all around Australia,
Speaker 1: but never identified bones which could possibly include Marion's. So
Speaker 1: with bones being tested and a brief of evidence coming
Speaker 1: her way, Sally feels like she is finally making solid progress.
Speaker 18: She's even sent a letter.
Speaker 1: To the new South Wales Police Minister seeking a two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand dollar reward for information leading to
Speaker 1: the whereabouts of her mother.
Speaker 5: When I first met you, if you'd ask me what
Speaker 5: my end goal was, it would have been to get
Speaker 5: to a coronial in quest and have the best of
Speaker 5: the best looking at it and researching it and investigating
Speaker 5: it properly.
Speaker 3: Someone out there knows something that's going to be able
Speaker 3: to finish every missing person's case. It doesn't matter how
Speaker 3: much time goes by or what happens. I want out
Speaker 3: there somewhere in those the key piece of information that
Speaker 3: set in to Silvy for these cases.
Speaker 2: And that brings our catch up series to a conclusion.
Speaker 2: From episode twenty we began our Inquest coverage, which is
Speaker 2: very in depth. Episodes twenty to twenty five covered the
Speaker 2: first two weeks of Inquest in June July twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: To be honest, a lot of the evidence from these
Speaker 2: early sessions we already knew, and a lot of the
Speaker 2: witnesses we'd already spoken to. However, there was the announcement
Speaker 2: of a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar reward the
Speaker 2: information leading to a conviction over Marian's disappearance and six
Speaker 2: months later, that reward sum was doubled.
Speaker 1: And then the inquest was set down for an extra
Speaker 1: week in February twenty twenty two, which became two weeks,
Speaker 1: and then even more days were added in April, and
Speaker 1: that's when things really got interesting and all of the
Speaker 1: dots started connecting.
Speaker 2: Police had tracked down a man named Rick Blum, a
Speaker 2: man who lived in northern New South Wales, not too
Speaker 2: far from where Marion lived on the Gold Coast.
Speaker 1: A man originally from Belgium who'd previously lived in Luxembourg
Speaker 1: and southern England.
Speaker 2: A man with more than thirty one aliases, including the
Speaker 2: nand Remarkale, who he knew of when he lived in Luxembourg.
Speaker 2: In fact, he'd had a relationship with mister Remarkle's former wife,
Speaker 2: Manique Cornelius.
Speaker 1: A man who admitted placing a lonely heartsad in the
Speaker 1: French Lucurier, Australian newspaper in nineteen ninety four by a
Speaker 1: man seeking a woman for a long term relationship or marriage.
Speaker 2: A man who had a history of charming other women
Speaker 2: with access to large sums of money, A man who
Speaker 2: promised them a new life in Europe, and even took
Speaker 2: one to England, only to leave her behind, a man.
Speaker 1: Who admits to having a relationship with Marion Barter in
Speaker 1: the weeks before she suddenly decided to quit her job,
Speaker 1: sell her house, and take a trip overseas.
Speaker 2: The evidence from this Rick Blum and the other witnesses
Speaker 2: connected with him is compelling and incredible and far too
Speaker 2: detailed to sum up here. Episodes twenty six and beyond
Speaker 2: will reveal exactly what the police have discovered.
Speaker 1: And it won't be long before we're back. We're counting
Speaker 1: the days until the inquest findings are handed down. If
Speaker 1: you knew Marion or have any information about her or
Speaker 1: her whereabouts, we'd love to hear from you. Our website
Speaker 1: is sevennews dot com that au forward slash news Forward
Speaker 1: slash the Lady Vanishers, and you can also message us
Speaker 1: here or anonymously at the Lady Vanishers dot org.
Speaker 18: If you like what you're hearing.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to subscribe, Please rate and review our series.
Speaker 18: It helps new listeners to find us.
Speaker 1: Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist
Speaker 1: Brian Seymour, Producer and writer Sally Eels, Sound design Mark
Speaker 1: Wright transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins and Alie Sinclair. Graphics Jason Blandford.
Speaker 1: This is a seven News production.