WEBVTT - The Catch-Up - 6 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.240 Welcome back. We're up to episode six of the catch 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:11.440 up series of The Lady Vanishers. This time we focus 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:17.680 on episodes fifteen to nineteen of the original series. I'm 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:19.640 Brian Seymour and. 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.520 I'm Alison Sandy. Let's get straight into it. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.319 Our investigations have recently taken Sally to Sydney, where she 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.120 met up with me, did some interviews and went to 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.480 the New South Wales Coroner's Court to speak with Anne Lambino. 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:35.000 Yeah. 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.760 Look, that was like a closed door meeting between myself 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:44.120 and family and presidents cursons at the coroner's court. You know, 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:46.520 it was all little daunting going there. I'm not going 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:47.440 to it's not going to lie. 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:47.760 You know. 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.080 It sort of flooded back to me when my brother 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:55.560 died because he actually went to the local current's court. 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.560 I guess more more when he died, So you know, 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:00.320 for me, I kind of bought that a lot of 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:02.560 memories and thought, yeah, it was just that was kind 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.040 of a bit a bit freaky and a bit scary. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.920 I guess to do that by myself. But you know, 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.479 they are lovely people and they sat missing to me talk. 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.280 You know, that was very patient with me and we 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:16.920 talked for about an hour and a half. So it's 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:20.760 nice to know that finally I have people in the 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.959 South Wales police units I guess who are helping me 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.840 and has got my best interest at heart, which is 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.600 really promising. And you know, there's nothing to take away 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:37.760 from the podcast that we've created because without that, I 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.800 wouldn't have what I have right now and I wouldn't 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.360 be in this position right now. So you know, I'm 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.440 eternally grateful to you, particularly Alison, because you know, without 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.040 your belief in me and the story that I shared 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.160 with you in that coffee that you I'm sure you 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.240 thought it was going to be a five minute coffee 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.720 over a year ago, you know, and here we still 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:02.840 sit plotting a lot, doing hits. The investigation Sammy Grime. 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.400 You know, it's so passionate about doing the story and 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.480 Sally and the team behind you guys who are putting 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.440 it all together, and obviously the clues that I've got. 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.799 You know, I become super close to them. We talked daily. 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:17.480 They just never give up. 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:18.880 I've never met. 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:20.519 People like these people. 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:24.640 In my life, so you know, for them and their efforts, 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:26.400 I'm eternally grateful and. 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:30.520 Has been excellent at keeping Sally informed about how the 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.480 Coroner's court operates and how long she can expect to wait. 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:39.640 During a series of email exchanges in October, we determined 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.880 that a decision on whether an inquest would be held 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:47.079 from Marian may not be made until March or April 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:52.320 next year. This was after Detective Senior Constable Gary Shehan 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.959 had indicated to Sally that the brief of evidence he's 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:00.160 required to prepare for the coroner may take longer than 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.040 the usual three months. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:07.160 He told me that the normal recommendation for a brief 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.400 of evidence is three months, but you can request an extension, 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.600 and that he said to me, clut out, I will 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:15.760 one hundred percent be asking for that, as I need 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:16.359 the time to. 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.560 Compile it, Dear Sally. 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.680 This is how Anne explained it in an email. 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.680 The coroner's decision on whether an inquest will be held 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.560 is made after the coroner has gone through the brief 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.400 of evidence and determined that the person is deceased. So yes, 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.679 this could be six months if it takes that long 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:35.880 for the police to file the brief of evidence with 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.320 the coroner. The inquest would then be held. To determine 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:44.200 the date place cause and manner of death kind regards Anne. 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:49.160 Just to clarify, an inquest is a court hearing conducted 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:53.080 by a coroner to gather information about the cause and 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:57.280 circumstances of a death or presume death if a person 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.600 has been missing for more than seven years. They are 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:04.800 only held in certain cases, for example, if the death 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:10.040 occurs in suspicious or unusual circumstances, or if the cause 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:15.360 of death is unknown. Anne Lambino posted a booklet detailing 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:20.320 the coronial process for missing persons to Sally and explained. 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.119 State coroner Teresa O'Sullivan has carriage of your mother's case 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.039 and she will determine if an inquest will be held 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.559 after receipt of the police brief. I assume you would 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:32.520 like a copy of the brief of evidence, so I 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.640 have marked the file accordingly. If an inquest is held, 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:37.240 a copy of the brief will be sent to you 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:38.640 well before the inquest. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:41.320 New Eyes. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.760 When Sally met with Anne in Sydney, she found out 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:49.839 some unexpected information. While Gary Shehan is still working on 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.960 the case, he is no longer working alone. In fact, 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.120 there's a new officer in charge, a. 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:03.360 Person who don't wish to be identified, who is working 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:08.240 in the UNFELF Traumicized Squad in Sydney, who has been 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.640 in touch with me and spoken to me at length 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:16.479 and is hoping to meet up with me at some 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.200 point so that I can thrown through what I know 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.920 and what information i've them helps them look at as well, 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.599 and looking at the information that we have in the 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.200 documentation that we have and some of the things that 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.359 aren't quite right, I guess they want to meet me 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.200 in person first. When I say, I don't even know 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.080 who that is exactly, I don't know if there's a 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.680 team of them or just one person, but they do 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.560 refer to themselves as an oc SO, which is an 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.680 officer in charge. So I would hazard a guess that 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:51.599 they potentially will take over the case because it's a 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.880 whole new, new division and it sort of takes away 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.600 from just being in a police station at Tweetheads by 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.680 they it goes into I still don't really know, to 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.640 be honest, I'm still learning about what it is and 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.320 what that means for me exactly a month's case, but 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.279 I'm hoping that we get to catch up sooner than 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:13.960 later and then I can have more information. 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:17.679 In this episode, we once again reached out to mister 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:23.159 Remichel in Luxembourg. Alison first spoke with his partner Marie. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:32.000 Hello, I'm looking for Fernande. Please uh Tila, just looking 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:41.960 for Fernande. If he's available, please Fernande. I know you understand. Fernande. 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:42.719 Is he there? 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:43.120 Please? 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.760 Looks six So. 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:52.800 Why what we do? 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:53.720 What do you want to. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:59.000 Or seven am? Look, it's Alison Sandy. I'm from Australia. 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:01.640 Obviously following up, we didn't want to knock on your 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.640 door again, so we thought you'd prefer if we called 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:06.719 rather than knocked on your door. 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.600 Yeah, what do you like? What do you want? What 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:12.040 do you want us? 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.400 Oh, we just wanted to speak to finand because we 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.320 had those questions, we sent him. That's all. We're just 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.480 following it up. We want to rule him out so 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:22.680 that you phone up. 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:28.240 To the walk to the June that we stay to the. 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.800 You don't know what to do to us, well. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.640 We can undo it. I guess if we could speak 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.240 to Finand we have talked to everybody else as part 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.160 of this, he's the only one we haven't been able 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:44.160 to talk to properly. 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.560 We have nothing to do with something. 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.720 He was never in Australia. He was never he can 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:52.720 help you. 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.200 With the help of our sleuths, we tracked down Susie Kup, 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.760 the teacher who came out from England on exchange while 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.960 Marian worked at the Southport School in the nineteen nineties. 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.640 The pair hit it off, and when Marian decided to 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.360 embark on her overseas adventure, Susie Cooper was someone she 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.080 intended to catch up with. But when Sally reached out 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.840 to Susie in an effort to shake some memories loose 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.680 that might help with our investigation, her husband said no. 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.800 However, we did chat with another man who understands very 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.440 well the sense of loss and emptiness she'd experienced for 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:41.440 more than twenty years. Mark Levison's twenty year old son, Matthew, 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.480 was last seen leaving a Sydney nightclub in September two 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:50.040 thousand and seven. Matthew's partner, Michael Atkins, went to trial 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.160 for the murder and manslaughter of Matthew in two thousand 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:57.400 and nine, but was found not guilty. For nine years, 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:03.680 Atkins lied what was the turning point when they finally 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.480 started to take like? What treated the seriousness the year 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.880 of the police taking car Matt's. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:15.600 Second probably the find of the car that was the key. 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.240 I think we went down the police station to that. 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:18.800 Again. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.040 What we we we weren't told is that they had 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.040 already found Matt's car. Matt's car was found on the 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:29.240 on the Thursday morning MM and the ground staff at 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.320 the Park of Settlement had located the car and as 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:34.200 unusual said car there for all those days. So it 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:36.400 was brought to the police and yeah, and they realized 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.080 it was the car blowing the mat. So they opened 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.240 the car and found a receipt in there from Bunnings MM. 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.240 When the Bunnings at uh tarran point and saw Akins 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.120 walking at at twelve o'clock on the Sunday MM empty 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.800 handed walking out about twelve out seven with a matic 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:51.800 and cloth tape as per the receipt that was in 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:55.400 the car bearing his fingerprint with thumbprint MM. And that's 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:57.679 when it got serious. That's where which we did we 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.599 weren't told. They told us Arthur is longing to be 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.120 with the detective. The first interview they said, look, we 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.319 can tell you now you couldn't see before case tend 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.840 to what you were saying. If I met car this morning, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.240 how long after after you did send the Sunday This 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.920 is a Thursday. The Carols found that that morning on 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:18.400 the Thursday. But initially they thought, you know, a young 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.600 gay guy. That's our best guess that a young gay 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:23.800 he's on a vender somewhere. You'll be right, that's we 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.600 first thought. How are they were approaching it not more 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.000 seriously because he was gay, because he was young, because 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:31.880 all those reasons. 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.720 So it's funny too because they've made assumptions on my 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:37.520 mum as well, being that she was a fifty one 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:39.800 year old woman who was married and divorced three times, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.480 so therefore she obviously wants to go missing because of 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:46.160 those factors. And that's what when you're reading the Freedom 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:50.560 of Information and transcripts, it's constantly brought up, Oh, this 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.680 woman was fifty one. She was obviously wanting to move 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.720 on and have a new life for herself. Like, I 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:59.400 don't understand why assumptions like that can be put into 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.559 a series this matter, like a missing person's came. 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:06.000 It's a better detective, say, don't make assumptions. Look at 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:07.160 the evidence with that to. 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.200 You, never assume, because it makes some ass out of 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:15.120 you and me you know, it's it's not something that 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:19.800 I do lightly. I like to base my things on facts. 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:25.199 You need to. We had the earlier police missed so 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.120 many things. I mean Gary's team in the end, Yeah, 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.920 they found on Matt's phone that there's already had years prior. 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.800 They would go through things again. Atkins only grew matha 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.600 for drugs. I ever tried drugs or ever tried jollies 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.880 and I'll share, I'll look after you and coaxing and teaching. 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.200 You right right right? 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:45.120 How interesting? 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.520 Yeah, that's so much. It was located on the phones 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.840 on the computer that was overlooked initially. If only they 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.600 had like we have now iPhones well Jair tracking things 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.160 on that we've been just so amazing back then of 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.040 course with them other with their mobile phones there, so 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.319 those things have been a gods. 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:06.040 And all the while the Levison family pushed for a 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:07.880 coroner's inquest into the case. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:10.520 Yes it did wears down a what But the thing is, 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.079 we never even considered quitting. And that's what the authorities 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.000 came to realize near the end, that she's just this 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:19.720 time because they're not they're not going away. 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:24.080 But what we found was which worked well quite for 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.800 a while, I get gone, drag out, hit him again 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:32.719 and don't think out shit and rather how are your 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.360 pest just right? 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:34.720 Okay? 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:35.280 Again? 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:36.959 And I didn't really worry about it too much because 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:38.239 he doesn't work on Mondays. 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.400 Atkins had been the last person to see Matthew alive. 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.920 He said the young man died from an accidental drug overdose, 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:52.239 but in exchange for legal indemnity, Atkins finally provided information 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:57.040 about the possible whereabouts of Matthew's body. He drew a 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.440 map that led to extensive excavations at the Royal National 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.320 Park south of Sybney. 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.480 So on this eighth afternoon where we had listened to 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.960 on the crane or warrant and probably about four minutes 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.240 of digging time of the tobacco's going. Why they take 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.160 this set to the commercial operator. Let's pull that palm 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.000 there even thinking of the pumps out the round and 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:18.640 I saw it in the bucket of the back hours 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.640 of the faith that looked nice. Now you are just 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.319 joking with the immedis they called Garrio with Then we 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:25.640 got him, We found him. 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.160 New South Wales police have located human remains following an 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.320 extensive search in the Royal National Park for missing man 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:33.199 Matthew Levison. 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.480 When they found Matt, we're just talking scullull remains, but 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:39.120 Matt wearing a morgod she and he's Morgan, a plastic 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:40.800 weathering the words. So they found a G the A 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.040 N R, M and O. So they've word Morgan and 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.520 two edged darts. So we knew was Matt straight away. 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:51.400 How did you feel? Mixed emotions, elated and poor failure. 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.199 She always had in her head that glimerous of the 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:57.640 smaller small hopes that just maybe he's out there as good. 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:02.719 That confirmed across he was, and but I was just 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:04.920 just believed that we found them, it could get out 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:06.640 of there and bring him home. Yeah, and in the 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.280 next few days it was like excavating a mummy, you know, 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:13.760 they had paint brushes and game. That happened so carefully. 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.560 There's some parts there that are missing and we think 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.440 most likely they've disturbed that in the first dig and 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.000 not seeing what's what's in the soil and they were 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:24.920 missing out al caa fema that's a solid bones that's 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.160 in the first dig, and did not realize it was there, 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:28.240 not seeing anything. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.600 Wow, that's even crazy too. And they've got it and 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:32.840 they didn't find femur in it. 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.640 So yeah, they had the forensic people there. They were 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.440 there the whole time, but they were going through a 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.080 big sieve, going huge sieve, and they were going through 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.040 all the soil that they dug up and were digging up. 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.560 And that's still finding more and more small bones there. 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:50.120 How many days all that? Eight five eight, So with 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:51.480 twenty one. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.800 Matt's remains were found in a shallow grave beneath the 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.120 cabbage palm in May twenty seventeen. 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.720 They'll now be sent away for further forensic analysis. However, 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.200 police and family have waited several years for this breakthrough. 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.400 That palm is now planted in the Levison's yard and 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:10.120 last year. 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.240 To us, one more thing is is it ever? No? Never, 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.600 because some prints our will let you get back to normality. 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.720 Now now there's a new normal. The old normal has gone. 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:23.880 For the wood now in my house talking to me 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:25.000 about things. 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.240 That's what we thought to us. You know, we were 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.720 helped by saying people through our journey, when you're trying 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.240 to give back, it's therapeutic. It helps us to code. 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.720 And we lost so many friends. People who don't know 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:40.880 what to say to you. We will see what we 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.280 call friends change aisles in the stupermarket what to voice. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:50.760 But we've gained some new friends. 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.600 Yeah, I've said that too, Like you know, out of 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.520 if you're looking at the brighter side of a sad story. 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.520 The amount of people I've met, like yourself and so 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:02.960 many Allison Brian likes. 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:04.479 The list is huge. 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:06.880 Of all the people who are super close to me now, 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.440 like I've got like Allison's on my speeder Vryan's constantly 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.280 texting the solution that I'm working with their like my 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:15.040 best friends now. 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.640 Episode sixteen began by looking closer at the incoming passenger 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.920 card that Marian supposedly filled out herself upon leaving the 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:28.200 United Kingdom in nineteen ninety seven. It's date stamped the 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:32.640 second of August Brisbane Airport and includes the following details 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.160 her new name, date of birth, country of residence, occupation, 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.160 marital status and flight details. 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:45.000 We sent away copies of the passenger card and postcards 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.120 written by Marion to handwriting experts to determine if there 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:49.760 was a match. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.120 The first expert we consulted advised this. 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.040 On an initial inspection, it appeared that the letters, etc. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.960 Are predominantly a cursive script, whilst the passenger card is 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:09.080 upper case lettering, which cannot be compared. The small amount 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.600 of uppercase printing in the letters etc. Also appears to 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.679 be insufficient for a useful comparison to be conducted with 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:21.879 the passenger card. Your sincerely, Stephen Dubadat, Forensic document Examiner. 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.680 From this, we still don't know if it was Marian. 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.480 If it wasn't, who was it was she traveling alone? 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.760 Could Marian have really married while in England? If so, 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.120 did her new husband travel back with her? This document 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.080 holds the key to so much, and presumably New South 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.080 Wales Police is trying to find out the answers to 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:51.439 these questions too. Now they have an airline and flight number, 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.680 detectives should be able to locate a flight manifest listing 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.879 all the passengers, possibly including who was sitting next to Marian, 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:05.560 and they can also potentially access the archived CCTV footage 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.240 from the airport to confirm whether this was really her 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:10.600 coming through the arrival gate. 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:17.479 Yeah, hello, Cliff Hobden. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.680 Fortunately we had more lark with the second handwriting expert. 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:25.720 I was the former commander of the New South Wales 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:31.960 Police Document Examination section. I've written curriculum on handwriting comparison. 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:34.840 I've been giving evidence for about twenty years without my 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.439 evidence ever being challenged on the basis of my expertise. 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.960 So I made the comparison, and my opinion is, or 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:47.359 would be for a court that the specimen writer wrote 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.000 the questioned handwriting. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:51.640 However, he qualified this. 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.840 All opinions that are formed by way of a subjective 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:59.280 process have some degree of error. I mean, that's why 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.399 there's the Court of Appeal for when magistrates and judges 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:08.080 make subjective opinions. And what applies to handwriting opinions is 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.359 you cannot present it to the court as one hundred 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:12.280 percent accurate. 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.360 While it's not an exact science, Cliff is very comprehensive 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:17.400 in his analysis. 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:22.159 You assess the specimen by looking not just at letter designs, 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:27.520 but other features such as ratios, connections, the way that 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:32.119 a person might deviate from writing their handwriting in a 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:37.600 perfectly straight line, the size of the handwriting slope. And 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.439 in addition to all that, the fact is that we 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:44.760 all write a handwriting slightly differently according to the skill 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.720 that we apply or because of the circumstances of how 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.600 of the use of the particular pen or the surface, 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:54.240 or all kinds of other things. 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.840 Sally thinks at least some of the incoming passenger card 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.520 was written by her mum. Definitely not all of it. 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.440 But if it was Marian, could she have made that 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.439 flight and called Sally from Tunbridge Wells as she claimed 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.679 in the conversation she had with her daughter on August first. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:19.480 Our helper in the UK, Christina, says no. Checking with 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.199 a plain spot of friend, she found the schedule for 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.760 Cathe Pacific flight c X one zero three, which departed 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.879 Hong Kong at eleven pm on August the first. Accounting 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.959 for the transit time and the flight time from London, 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.320 Marion could not have been in Tunbridge Wells when she 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:41.920 spoke with Sally and been on that flight, raising more 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:45.119 questions did Marian lie about what she was when she 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:45.720 made the call? 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:47.960 If so, for what reason? 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.119 We know that New South Wales Police is in possession of. 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:56.280 This original document. 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.840 We first requested a copy of it late last year, 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:04.440 but we're denied access under the Government Information Privacy Act 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.240 or GIPPER, our freedom of information laws. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.720 We then took legal action in July. 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.080 The matter was heard in the New South Wales Civil 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:19.000 and Administrative Tribunal or ENCAT. We've waited months for a decision. 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:20.439 Then we were. 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:24.040 Advised one would be made by Friday, the thirteenth of December, 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:29.000 but that did not occur, and upon inquiring again as 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:31.800 to the reasons for the ongoing delay, the following Monday, 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.359 we received this notification from the Registrar. 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.760 I refer to previous advice about when parties could expect 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.840 publication of the decision. In this case, I apologize the 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.720 decision was not made available on the thirteenth of December 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:51.480 twenty nineteen as estimated. Registry will advise you as soon 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:52.960 as the decision is available. 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:01.880 And more good news, our other GIPPER request has yielded results. 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:06.720 This is the one for documents produced since November last year. 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.560 Our previous request only included documents that went up to 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:17.000 November twenty eighteen. On the third of December, the Information 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:23.520 Privacy Commissioner or IPC ruled New South Wales Police makes 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:24.600 a new decision. 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:29.359 The review of the agency's information and decision concluded that 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:33.159 its decision is not justified. The reviewer recommends, under section 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.840 ninety three of the GOPA Act that the agency make 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:39.320 a new decision by way of internal review. 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:44.600 In other words, the new South Wales Police's decision not 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:48.159 to release any documents on the basis they are connected 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:54.000 with the active investigation into Marian's disappearance is being disputed 0:22:54.800 --> 0:23:01.760 and that partial release at least should be considered. The 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:04.520 review also looked at the public interest in the case 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:08.919 and found that there was no adequate explanation as to 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:14.000 how access to the information could potentially prejudice or hinder 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:20.080 an investigation or the enforcement of the law. 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:26.879 In episode sixteen, Sally and her daughter Ella took a 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.880 trip to Sydney to meet up with the new police 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:32.800 officer in charge of Marion's case. So this is the 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:36.320 new South Wales Police headquarters. This is basically the mothership 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:39.960 for your the investigation into your mother's death. The first 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:41.639 time you've been here. How did the meeting go with 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:42.880 a new officer in charge? 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:47.119 Really, Well, we've been here all day, so it's been 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:49.439 a very big day. I think I've talked to the 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:54.520 leg off the chair, but feeling extremely confident. They are 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:59.120 very good. They're starting from scratch, they're going to look 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:01.359 into every single thing, and we just were sort of 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:02.960 joking about it. Then I just said to them, we're 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:04.960 leaving no stone on turn and they're like, you vetch 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:09.560 your So the new oice is completely dedicated to our case, 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:13.920 which is great news. She has her own little team 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.920 as well helping us, and I'm feeling really confident that 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.000 we're going to start digging deep and looking into it 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:24.200 the way its sugar been done, you know, twenty three 0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:24.640 years ago. 0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:25.680 So that's really good news. 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:26.840 Can I get a high five? 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:28.920 How does that sound? 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:30.560 Does that sounds pretty good? 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:33.840 I think because you've lived this your entire life, haven't you. 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:34.120 Yeah. 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:38.200 Well, I'm just glad that the podcast and everything that 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:41.439 has finally led to something and that all of the 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:46.320 effort hasn't been for nothing and is finally eventuated into, 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:49.919 you know, getting this new outcome for it, which I 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:50.560 think is great. 0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:52.879 How proud are you of your mum for pushing it 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:53.280 this far. 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:55.080 I'm very proud, very very proud. 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:56.720 She's worked very hard to get here. 0:24:56.800 --> 0:24:58.720 So I think it's about time that. 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:02.320 It gets to stage, because yeah, she just had a 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:03.440 plane stage thing. 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:05.360 Oh fantastic. 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:08.280 I'm so happy to hear that. I'm so thrilled. 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:09.080 That's fantastic. 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:12.080 Did you get into the detail of things like the 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:14.359 passenger manifest for the flights in and out that you're 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:15.800 muntok No, we. 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:18.560 Didn't really get into the nitty gritty of the information. 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:21.639 I've just really touched on what I feel is important 0:25:21.800 --> 0:25:24.520 and pretty much they already had that information anyway from 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:26.160 the phone calls that I've had, but I just put 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:30.439 it into an easy email documentation dot point kind of 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:33.040 situation so that they've got it. And they were just 0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:35.679 loving that because it's all, you know, in front of them. 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:36.680 And I just said to them, you know what, this 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:37.840 has been going on for twenty. 0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:38.440 Three years already. 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:41.040 I don't want to sit here and just sit here 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:43.320 and go, Okay, well you guys, good luck. You know, 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:45.000 I'll let you do your thing. I want to be 0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:47.480 able to help as much as I can because I 0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:49.200 have a lot of information and I have a lot 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:52.320 of detail that I wanted to share with them, you know, 0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:55.639 like errors in the freedom of information documentation, things like that. 0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:57.960 So we've done all of that today, and what about 0:25:57.960 --> 0:26:00.760 things like persons of interest And I'm thinking about mister 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:01.880 Ramichel in Luxembourg. 0:26:02.440 --> 0:26:03.480 Was he brought up today? 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:04.840 He's on the list. 0:26:05.800 --> 0:26:07.639 So they're eager to find out and look into all 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.840 of the questions and the information we've uncovered about persons 0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:11.280 of interest. 0:26:11.359 --> 0:26:14.840 I would think so based on what I've told them today, given. 0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:18.240 The nature of a police homicide review that was done 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:20.440 on this case and now this new officer in charge, 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:23.000 was there any discussion about the forensic aspects of this 0:26:23.080 --> 0:26:27.000 case and testing DNA against remains that sort of thing 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:27.960 that didn't come up today. 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:31.960 Not yet. They've told me. They told me that the 0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:34.120 balloon of bone was negative, which was the other day. 0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:36.919 That was the bone from a woman found in the 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:38.439 mid nineties in the Ballina region. 0:26:38.480 --> 0:26:40.919 Correct, Yeah, so I specifically asked for that bone to 0:26:40.920 --> 0:26:44.199 be tested against my DNA, which threw a negative result. 0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:45.400 But that's good. 0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:48.159 Yeah, it is good. He ticked that box off. You know. 0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:49.720 That's what I say to people. It's not all it 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:52.479 was about being negative. It's about me being able to say, well, 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:54.440 this is something that needs to be investigated. Okay, let's 0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:56.840 tick it off and go right, we can move Yeah, 0:26:56.840 --> 0:26:57.200 that's right. 0:26:57.280 --> 0:26:59.480 It sounds like this initial meeting couldn't have gone any better. 0:26:59.640 --> 0:26:59.960 Is that the. 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:04.320 I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of who 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:06.919 we've got on the team and I'm really happy that 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:11.760 we're at that point. I think, you know, it's a 0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:14.560 really great feeling to know that, you know, not only 0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:16.320 have I got you guys, but I've got them now 0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:18.280 as well. So I've got like this team of people 0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:22.119 fighting for answers and you know, everyone working for the 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:23.360 same goal at the end of the day. 0:27:23.840 --> 0:27:25.240 I'm so happy to hear that sound. 0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:25.960 It's so good. 0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:30.000 Fingers crossed that they are and follow through on the 0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:31.879 hopes that have been generated today. 0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.520 Episode sixteen also saw the start of a petition by 0:27:37.560 --> 0:27:41.879 one of Sally's online supporters, Jen Marsh, calling on the 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.640 New South Wales Police to put up a cash reward 0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:48.480 for any information that may lead to Marian or finding 0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:51.960 out what happened to her. And we were pushing for 0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:55.879 another more substantial search of an area at Armadale in 0:27:55.960 --> 0:27:59.480 northern New South Wales. If you remember, the only call 0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:03.360 ever made to crime Stoppers linked to Marian's case directed 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:07.200 police to Armidale. However, the date of when that call 0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:11.680 was made is, like many dates in the police report, unreliable, 0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:15.160 but we do know it was not acted upon until 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:19.000 twenty ten, when Detective Gary Sheen took over the case. 0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:22.520 The person who made that anonymous call to crime stoppers 0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:26.200 about Marian and the potential whereabouts of her body has 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:27.240 never been found. 0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:32.360 But by episode sixteen, we had found out much more 0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:35.359 about this pilot. He was the father of a boy 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:38.640 in Marion's class in the mid nineteen nineties, and we 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:42.760 discovered was eleven years younger than Marian and used to 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:47.160 work for the airline Cathe Pacific. We also learned that 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:50.400 there was nothing to suggest there was anything more than 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:57.880 a mild flirtation by Marian. While she has been searching 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.080 so long for the mother she lost. As a result 0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:04.880 of this podcast, there is something Sally has gained. Her 0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:09.239 relationship with her dad Stewart has strengthened. She caught up 0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:12.040 with him on her recent trip to Sydney. Of their 0:29:12.080 --> 0:29:15.160 original family unit of four, there were only the two 0:29:15.200 --> 0:29:17.880 of them left, and they're making the most of it. 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:23.320 Initially I didn't get too involved. I just thought it, 0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:26.920 let it go along. But now it is having an 0:29:27.000 --> 0:29:32.400 impact on me because it's impacting Sally, and it's frustrating 0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:36.240 because you think, Okay, how. 0:29:36.120 --> 0:29:38.880 Does it feel being part of something that millions of 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:41.000 people now following, How has it affected you? 0:29:41.600 --> 0:29:41.840 Look? 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:45.120 I just hoped that I can help Sally, and that's 0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:47.200 what people said, Well, why are you going to let 0:29:47.240 --> 0:29:49.880 Channel seven interview and said, because I'm supporting my daughter. 0:29:50.520 --> 0:29:54.400 In his initial interview for this podcast, Stewart was angry, 0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:57.760 and his comments about Marian drew a lot of criticism. 0:29:58.440 --> 0:29:59.440 There is still. 0:29:59.240 --> 0:30:03.240 Anger there, especially when he remembers things like his daughter's wedding. 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:06.720 I was in the wedding car and Sally was looking 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:09.320 around every tree to see if her mother was there. 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:13.040 And I get upset thinking about that. 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:15.719 That wedding day, I mean marrying, had organized the chapel 0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:19.920 at TSS for christ and Sally to marry in. Why 0:30:20.040 --> 0:30:22.400 was it so upsetting seeing your daughter looking around? 0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:25.640 Well, she's looking for a mother and she was really 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:28.560 really believed that her mother was hiding her. And when 0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:31.160 she didn't turn up, it was like it must have 0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:33.360 gutted her. That affected me. 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:35.760 How did it feel seeing your daughter have to go 0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:37.680 through that on the biggest day of her life. 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:39.000 I was upsetting. 0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:44.520 He was upsetting, but his anger is mellowing as he 0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:47.720 learns more about how much his daughter Sally has suffered 0:30:47.760 --> 0:30:51.720 over the past twenty three years and the trials she has. 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:54.600 Endured quite stressed, Like Dad has been quite stressed about 0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:59.360 me doing this, and he gets upset and he cries 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:02.080 to me on the phone a lot. And you know, 0:31:02.160 --> 0:31:07.440 I think in that heat of that moment, he focused 0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:11.040 on what was driving his upset, I think, rather than 0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:14.320 thinking about the positive sides. Because he's told me many 0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:17.760 times about what a great relationship you have with Mum, 0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:19.440 and I've quite often said to him, I think they 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:20.160 were too similar. 0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:23.560 Do you miss Marian now? Still in a way? 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:26.120 I look, I look at photographs and I think, you know, 0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:29.040 there's a photograph of her standing at the front door 0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:32.000 at ligand the Macquarie Road, taught your friend and I 0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:34.760 can remember that like it was yesterday. The last time 0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:38.960 I saw Marion was at Sally's engagement party with Allen 0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:41.960 was with me. She took Owen to see his grandparents 0:31:42.400 --> 0:31:43.160 up at Colownbra. 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:46.120 Yeah that photo, that lovely photo, will be all together. 0:31:47.280 --> 0:31:49.760 And yeah that was that was it? 0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:53.120 And did you get on with Marion's parents, Jackie? 0:31:53.200 --> 0:31:53.800 Oh excellent. 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:57.240 Matter of fact, I've got Christmas cards from Colleen just 0:31:57.320 --> 0:32:01.720 read like until she died and calling the Stuart Browner 0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:06.760 Squire and she'd put really nice notes in there, and 0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:09.120 she actually when I was up there? When was that? 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:10.720 I was up there and there but all the girls, 0:32:10.720 --> 0:32:13.040 the sisters were there, and Colleen pulled her to one 0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:15.080 side and she said, do you know where Marian is? 0:32:15.840 --> 0:32:18.280 I said, I don't know. She told me she really 0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:18.760 missed her. 0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:22.000 If Marian did know that Owen had taken his own life, 0:32:22.480 --> 0:32:23.640 how would that have affected her? 0:32:23.680 --> 0:32:25.680 Do you think I'd say that would have destroyed her? 0:32:26.760 --> 0:32:29.960 It was Marian prone to going down and making large 0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:33.160 cash withdrawals? Was she very savvy and financially. 0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:34.080 I'd never experienced that. 0:32:34.200 --> 0:32:37.080 What about in terms of her knowledge of international travel 0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:44.240 and identification documents? Was she a master schemer? Because, to 0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:47.760 believe the police version, she was an elaborate schemer. 0:32:47.960 --> 0:32:49.400 I I don't believe that. 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:50.640 Why don't you believe that? 0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:53.400 Just the way Marian was. Marian was a bit hair 0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:55.040 brand in a lot of ways, but she wasn't. 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:57.520 She wasn't a schemer. Do you think she could have 0:32:57.520 --> 0:32:59.320 pulled off what the police station had? 0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:00.920 Absolutely not. 0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:03.480 So what does that then mean? Where does that leave us? 0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:06.360 There's a link somewhere, and we've got to find that link. 0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:12.880 It's been a while since our last road trip, so 0:33:13.240 --> 0:33:16.400 I head off south of Wollongong, three hours drive from 0:33:16.440 --> 0:33:21.320 Sydney to the tiny town of Jambourou. More specifically, it's 0:33:21.560 --> 0:33:24.840 iconic pub, The Watering Hole there is run by family 0:33:24.880 --> 0:33:29.800 members of Marion's first husband, Johnny Warren, Australia's soccarou Great, 0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:34.000 our first ever World Cup football captain, and there's plenty 0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:37.600 of memorabilia on display in the pub. Johnny's family have 0:33:37.720 --> 0:33:40.960 been great supporters of Sally's. Like her, they want to 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:44.800 know what happened to his first wife. Sally and her 0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:47.360 daughter Ella came along too, and we caught up with 0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:51.800 Johnny's brother Ross, his nephew Jamie, and Johnny's former best 0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:53.320 mate John Economus. 0:33:53.880 --> 0:33:55.800 Can I Gang, h. 0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:56.360 Could I Ross? 0:33:58.280 --> 0:34:01.960 It's December second, twenty nineteen. We've been doing this for 0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:06.840 more than a year now, Sally, more than a year. Jamie, 0:34:07.160 --> 0:34:09.600 When did you first hear about the lady vanishes? 0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:10.799 Oh? 0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:15.360 Gee, it must have been a twelve months or so ago. Now. 0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:18.960 We were contacted by Allison and Allison explained what was 0:34:19.080 --> 0:34:23.040 what the situation was, and we said, yes, we're just 0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:24.880 so happy to be able to help and whatever we 0:34:24.920 --> 0:34:26.120 can do to help, we. 0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:28.359 Will What did you make of it when you heard 0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:29.000 what we were doing. 0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:32.360 It was an incredible, incredible thing that you're doing. For 0:34:32.440 --> 0:34:36.640 somebody to be wondering for all these years, you know, 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:38.120 where's my mum? 0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:39.080 What's happened to my mum? 0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:43.319 It was just a fantastic thing that you're doing. And 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:46.040 for me to put myself in Sally's position and the 0:34:46.040 --> 0:34:50.319 family's position, it was just incredible that you're doing something 0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:52.359 on this scale to be able to find out what's 0:34:52.360 --> 0:34:53.120 actually happened. 0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:57.719 Here we are reunited with the family of the man 0:34:57.880 --> 0:34:58.920 your mum was married to. 0:34:59.120 --> 0:34:59.520 First. 0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:04.040 Yeah, Jamie, can you tell Sally and Marion's granddaughter Ella 0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:05.440 what Johnny was like? 0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:06.800 What do you remember Johnny? 0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:07.359 Yeah? 0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:10.799 Well, growing up, he was always somebody that I looked 0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:15.560 up to. He was a massive hero of mine. But 0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:19.000 he was just he was a lovely, lovely guy. He 0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:21.840 was very friendly, he was very interested in what you 0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:22.279 were doing. 0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:23.480 He was very humble. 0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:27.120 Obviously he was he was a soccer superstar, and it's 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:31.120 somebody that's that I wanted to be like Uncle John. 0:35:32.239 --> 0:35:34.640 But he was somebody that you could just meet and 0:35:34.680 --> 0:35:38.160 within five minutes of meeting him, it'd be like you'd 0:35:38.200 --> 0:35:40.319 known him your whole life. I've witnessed that on many 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:44.600 occasions throughout his life, observing him, that he'd run into 0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:47.799 somebody or that they'd say, oh goody, you're Johnny Warren, 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:51.160 aren't you, And they'd start talking and you know, within 0:35:51.200 --> 0:35:54.120 a few minutes it was like they were long lost friend. 0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:56.960 So he was just a lovely man and and somebody 0:35:56.960 --> 0:35:59.640 who you know, we all respected and looked up to greatly, 0:35:59.680 --> 0:36:02.400 and he was highly He was just such a valuable 0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:05.080 part of our family and a very special man. 0:36:05.360 --> 0:36:06.080 Yeah. 0:36:06.360 --> 0:36:09.000 My mum always spoke very highly of John and loved 0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:12.840 him very much. So he's always Yeah, every time I 0:36:12.880 --> 0:36:15.000 met him, it was, you know, it was just like 0:36:15.080 --> 0:36:15.839 he was a top blow. 0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:19.040 So John, when you knew Marian, she didn't have any kids. 0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:21.520 Her and John didn't have any kids. Do you know 0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:23.160 if they were trying to have kids? 0:36:23.560 --> 0:36:29.279 Yeah, yeah, they were whenever he was in Australia because 0:36:29.280 --> 0:36:30.439 he was touring all the time. 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:30.759 Yeah. 0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:35.799 Well he had two marriages, you know, soccer and marrying. 0:36:35.840 --> 0:36:39.120 Which one did he love the most? 0:36:41.040 --> 0:36:43.719 Hard to separate them? 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:46.840 And was that something that you felt or can you 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:50.040 tell me if that was something that really ended up 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:53.960 becoming the main obstacle that those torn loyalties between his career, 0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:57.399 which was going game busters and his love. 0:36:57.360 --> 0:37:00.080 For Marian, which you told us was very genuine. 0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:02.520 Well, he was captain of his club, captain of New 0:37:02.560 --> 0:37:05.560 South Wales, captain of Australia. He had a lot on 0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:10.320 a lot on overseas strips. Yeah, yeah, it was a 0:37:10.360 --> 0:37:11.279 significant fact. 0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:13.560 Did you think when they got married that they'd go 0:37:13.640 --> 0:37:14.960 the distance, that they'd stay together. 0:37:15.480 --> 0:37:18.799 I'm the one that brought them together, you know, I'm 0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:21.040 the culprit. I'm the guilty one. 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:21.520 John. 0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:23.520 How much do you miss your mate? How much do 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:24.120 you miss John? 0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:24.520 Too much? 0:37:25.760 --> 0:37:26.400 Even now? 0:37:27.920 --> 0:37:30.240 Yep, it's only fifteen years. 0:37:31.520 --> 0:37:38.040 Any next question, you're very passionate about it. I love 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:39.440 that he would love you for that. 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:42.560 Yeah, he would. 0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:45.960 And it's nice to have matshit like that. 0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:53.400 So okay, And that's the last time we got to 0:37:53.440 --> 0:37:57.279 speak with John Economus. He died in October twenty twenty one. 0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:02.960 In episode six, we also spoke with Australian journalist and 0:38:03.040 --> 0:38:07.000 businesswoman Itita Buttrose, who presented Marian with the Teacher of 0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:10.240 the Year award in nineteen ninety six. Just a matter 0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:15.480 of months before Marian disappeared. Remarkably, Eita kept a copy 0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:18.239 of the very speech she wrote for that ceremony. 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:19.600 It's amazing, isn't it. 0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:22.239 I am said the function and I spoke at it. 0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:24.799 I've kept all the speeches I've given over the years, 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:27.440 so I made one on file. And when I looked back, 0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:31.880 I thought, my word, teachers had it tough. Yeah, you 0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:34.399 had to me had a lot of resilience when your 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:37.359 teacher then you probably still do. But yes, said your 0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:39.000 mother was a teacher at that time. 0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:43.640 Ita is a legend in Australian publishing and journalism, a 0:38:43.760 --> 0:38:53.840 household name immortalized in pop songs. She has received numerous honors, 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:57.799 including Australian of the Year, and was herself a pioneering 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:02.280 single mother who rose to become of the Woman's weekly magazine. 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:09.759 Imagine Marion Barter receiving her Teacher's Excellence Award at the 0:39:09.840 --> 0:39:13.480 Hilton Hotel ballroom in front of hundreds of officials and 0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:18.560 colleagues listening to Eide bart Rose make this remarkable speech 0:39:19.120 --> 0:39:23.040 about the profession she loved and had devoted her life. 0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:26.600 To ladies and gentlemen. Everyone has their down moments. I 0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:29.520 know I do. When I need a little inspiration, I 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:32.120 turned to some paragraphs that one of my first editors 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:35.040 gave me. They have stood the test of time, and 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:39.200 they go like this. Last rewards appear at the end 0:39:39.320 --> 0:39:41.880 and not the beginning of the journey. There is no 0:39:42.000 --> 0:39:44.479 way I can foresee how many steps it will take 0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:48.200 me to reach my goal. I will perhaps meet failure 0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:51.120 at the southern step, and yet success will be there 0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:54.759 hidden behind the last bend in the road. I will 0:39:54.800 --> 0:39:56.880 never know how close I am to it. If I 0:39:56.920 --> 0:40:00.920 don't turn the corner, I will always take one more step. 0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:04.920 If this doesn't work, I will take another, and then another. 0:40:05.719 --> 0:40:08.400 One step at a time is not so very difficult. 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:11.520 I will persevere until our succeed. 0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:16.520 Words from that speech so many years ago now seem 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:19.160 applicable for Sally Leyden's journey today. 0:40:20.480 --> 0:40:24.600 By episode seventeen, the long wait after our end cat 0:40:24.719 --> 0:40:29.400 hearing had finally yielded results. We'd acted on Sally's behalf 0:40:29.560 --> 0:40:33.080 at the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal trying 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:36.400 to get access to documents about Marion in the police 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:40.480 investigation file, which had been heavily redacted when we applied 0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:44.200 for them through freedom of information laws. While we didn't 0:40:44.200 --> 0:40:48.240 get everything we'd hoped for, we did get some new information. 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:54.480 I've been trawling through, and thanks to the released documents, 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:58.160 we now have a much more descriptive case file, which 0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:02.760 reveals in part the extent of the investigation and clears 0:41:02.800 --> 0:41:05.960 up some of the past anomalies which we've been trying 0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:10.200 to grapple with. What they show are four periods of 0:41:10.239 --> 0:41:15.480 activity on the case. Firstly in nineteen ninety seven when 0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:21.520 Sally initially reported Marion missing, then in two thousand and 0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:25.200 seven when Sally went back to the police because ten 0:41:25.280 --> 0:41:28.440 more years had gone by and there was still nothing 0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:33.719 from her mother. It was at this time Marion was 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:38.799 finally referred to the Missing Persons Unit the MPU and 0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:44.680 put on the new South Wales Missing Persons Register. More 0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:49.160 activity in two thousand and nine, and then again in 0:41:49.200 --> 0:41:54.920 twenty eleven, when significant pressure was placed back on Byron 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:59.960 Bay Detectives to clear the matter up. It's important to 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:04.839 note that the police file is also riddled with errors, 0:42:05.320 --> 0:42:09.919 and not just minor typos. For this catch up episode, 0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:12.319 we're not going into all the details of what we 0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:15.520 discovered as a result of the ENCAT decision. If you 0:42:15.560 --> 0:42:18.680 want to revisit, just replay episode seventeen. 0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:24.960 We also spoke with forensic linguist Associate Professor Georgina Hetton 0:42:25.440 --> 0:42:28.200 to determine whether there was anything we were missing in 0:42:28.280 --> 0:42:32.480 Marion's final correspondence to family and friends. Perhaps there was 0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:36.040 something more in those postcards and letters that we weren't seeing. 0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:41.120 I was asked to look at whether or not these 0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:45.680 letters that Marion produced might have been influenced in some way. 0:42:47.040 --> 0:42:51.520 So the question for me was, were there some ways 0:42:51.560 --> 0:42:55.480 in which I could identify in the language some indications 0:42:55.560 --> 0:43:00.600 that Marian was writing under the influence of somebody else. So, 0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:03.640 in terms of the kind of thing that we do 0:43:03.760 --> 0:43:09.160 in linguistics, we would need some kind of method to 0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:14.640 analyze the language of the letters and to identify whether 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:19.960 there's some difference between the structure and the use of 0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:24.080 language in that letter that was written, particularly the long 0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:26.840 letter that was written in nineteen ninety seven from England, 0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:30.080 whether there's a difference between that and the earlier texts 0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:32.440 that were provided, which was mainly a text from a 0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:37.160 birthday card. So it's usually we're looking at things that 0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:40.040 the person writing the letter would not really be conscious 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:45.520 of when they're writing. It's quite easy to manipulate your vocabulary, 0:43:45.719 --> 0:43:49.640 but it's much harder to manipulate something like the grammatical 0:43:49.680 --> 0:43:53.040 structures of your sentences. Most people are not really conscious 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:55.919 of that when they're writing. So those are the kinds 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:58.560 of things that we're usually analyzing, and there are some 0:43:59.000 --> 0:44:01.759 systems for analyzing that kind of thing, but I've got 0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:06.279 to say it's not very robust. You know, we have 0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:10.800 a lot of difficulty in finding something like the equivalent 0:44:10.880 --> 0:44:14.239 of DNA or a fingerprint in people's writing. And I 0:44:14.239 --> 0:44:17.879 guess the other thing about authorship is if we think 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:21.560 about Marion's letters, I mean, we're not saying that she 0:44:21.640 --> 0:44:24.840 didn't write them. We're saying that she might have written 0:44:24.840 --> 0:44:28.520 them under somebody else's influence. We're not suggesting that somebody 0:44:28.520 --> 0:44:32.960 else wrote the nineteen ninety seven letter. You know, there's 0:44:32.960 --> 0:44:34.480 no doubt that she wrote it. 0:44:34.600 --> 0:44:39.160 However, forensic linguistics is not an exact science. 0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:43.319 The other thing that might have been useful would be 0:44:43.760 --> 0:44:47.160 something like some of the tools that we have for 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:50.200 light detection. If we don't have a method that can 0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:54.880 distinguish between the linguistic features of the text, like I 0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:58.239 talked about, a sort of got medical features based on authorship, 0:44:58.560 --> 0:45:00.440 you know, is there something else that we've apply to 0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:04.880 the analysis to identify a shift between the writing in 0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:08.000 the earlier text the birthday card, and the writing in 0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:13.040 the nineteen ninety seven text. So, for example, if Marian 0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:18.680 was talking about her plans for her travel over the 0:45:18.719 --> 0:45:23.000 coming months and the fact that she might be staying 0:45:23.040 --> 0:45:27.360 in England, but we know that really she was intending 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:32.239 to come back to Australia almost immediately afterwards, then there's 0:45:32.280 --> 0:45:35.600 something not matching there. What she knows is going to happen, 0:45:35.640 --> 0:45:38.160 which is coming back to Australia, and what she's talking 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:41.040 about happening, which is going traveling in Europe and so on, 0:45:41.680 --> 0:45:45.200 they don't match up. So in one way we could say, well, 0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:47.879 perhaps there's the falsehood there. Of course, there's a few 0:45:47.880 --> 0:45:50.600 holes in that argument. One is, if she came back 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:53.840 to Australia as we believe she did, she might not 0:45:53.880 --> 0:45:55.719 have knowned that was going to happen. She might have 0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:58.400 been writing that letter in nineteen ninety seven with no 0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:01.360 malicious desire to miss lead the reader. 0:46:01.920 --> 0:46:06.360 The analysis is further frustrated by the type of meaningful 0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:10.879 correspondence available from Marion at the time. If she kept 0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:14.000 a diary or something that allowed her to write in 0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:18.799 any depth, more educated conclusions could be drawn about her 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:20.800 situation at the time. 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:24.000 One thing that I did find, I guess interesting at 0:46:24.000 --> 0:46:27.120 a qualitative level was that the text does show there's 0:46:27.120 --> 0:46:29.880 a bit of evidence about a sense of trepidation about 0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:31.640 the trip to Europe, and I don't think it takes 0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:34.400 it really a linguist or even a forensic linguist to 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:37.680 identify this. She says, I'm staying for several days to 0:46:37.719 --> 0:46:39.680 have a good look and explore and a bit of 0:46:39.680 --> 0:46:44.000 a rest before tackling Europe. You know, there's some it's 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:46.839 that kind of odd way to talk about something that 0:46:46.920 --> 0:46:51.600 she would oessensibly be really excited about, you know, tackling Europe. 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:54.719 Then again, you know, maybe she's just a little bit 0:46:54.760 --> 0:46:59.080 more concerned about traveling in a foreign environment. You know, 0:46:59.200 --> 0:47:03.480 home counties England there's pretty safe, whereas traveling to continental 0:47:03.520 --> 0:47:06.160 Europe might have been a little bit more threatening for 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:10.719 her for just fairly innocuous reasons, not to do with 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:14.719 anyone that she was concerned about. She'd also been expressing 0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:16.880 all of these worries about having too much luggage and 0:47:16.920 --> 0:47:19.440 maybe that was weighing heavily on her mind, if you'll 0:47:19.480 --> 0:47:21.319 excuse the pun by the. 0:47:21.239 --> 0:47:21.759 Sound of it. 0:47:21.800 --> 0:47:25.400 Also, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that there 0:47:25.440 --> 0:47:30.200 was anyone influencing her writing per se, But we can 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:34.280 see that her behavior or at least what she's feeling 0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:39.120 and everything is consistent in the two years separating those 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:41.839 that correspondence. By looks of it, it doesn't seem out 0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:44.200 of the ordinary, that you know, with the way that 0:47:44.280 --> 0:47:44.840 she writes. 0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:50.600 Several months elapsed between the release of episode seventeen and eighteen, 0:47:51.120 --> 0:47:53.560 as we were in a holding pattern while we waited 0:47:53.560 --> 0:47:56.960 to hear whether an inquest would be held. The police 0:47:56.960 --> 0:48:00.919 were provided another two month extension to complique there brief 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:05.560 of evidence. And the COVID nineteen pandemic had engulfed the 0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:09.320 world and many cities and countries were in lockdown. 0:48:09.520 --> 0:48:13.200 But our super Sliss Journey was still making discoveries. She 0:48:13.400 --> 0:48:17.200 managed to acquire a copy of Marion's outgoing passenger card, 0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:20.359 the one that was filled out the day Marion first 0:48:20.440 --> 0:48:24.720 left Australia for her trip overseas. Here's what we learned 0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:32.360 back then. This card also came via an application to 0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:36.880 the National Archives of Australia. It is dated twenty second 0:48:36.880 --> 0:48:41.319 of June nineteen ninety seven. Her name is written as 0:48:41.400 --> 0:48:49.080 Florabella Natalia Marion remical under current marital status. The box 0:48:49.200 --> 0:48:55.240 divorced has been ticked. More interestingly, she's completed the section 0:48:55.360 --> 0:49:04.560 for a resident who plans to depart Australia permanently. It 0:49:04.680 --> 0:49:08.440 says she's been in Australia for fifty two years, even 0:49:08.480 --> 0:49:10.880 though she was three and a bit months shy of 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:15.600 her fifty second birthday. And where does it say she 0:49:15.719 --> 0:49:26.320 was moving to? Luxembourg spelled incorrectly as lux ian Berg 0:49:27.120 --> 0:49:33.120 after the word Europe has been crossed out. As for 0:49:33.200 --> 0:49:37.759 where she planned to disembark, she'd written England, but it's 0:49:37.880 --> 0:49:44.400 also crossed out and replaced with S Korea meaning South Korea. 0:49:45.000 --> 0:49:48.480 Presumably both lots of crossing out were done by a 0:49:48.560 --> 0:49:53.120 customs officer, as Luxembourg and South Korea appear to be 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:57.680 in the same handwriting and it's not consistent with Marion's. 0:50:00.480 --> 0:50:05.760 Without overreaching, we can conclude it was Marian on both 0:50:05.800 --> 0:50:09.400 the flight leaving Australia at the end of June nineteen 0:50:09.480 --> 0:50:14.040 ninety seven and returning at the beginning of August nineteen 0:50:14.120 --> 0:50:20.640 ninety seven. It was premeditated. Marian had planned in advance 0:50:20.960 --> 0:50:24.040 to go to Luxembourg to live. It was not a 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:29.600 snap decision made during her trip. Marian did not plan 0:50:29.880 --> 0:50:33.640 to return to Australia, and when she did five weeks later, 0:50:34.080 --> 0:50:38.680 it was only supposed to be temporary. You may recall 0:50:38.719 --> 0:50:44.040 from earlier episodes that Marian's passport never left Australia again, 0:50:44.480 --> 0:50:48.120 and as far as we know, it's never been located. 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:53.839 The last postcard we have from Marian was dated July 0:50:54.040 --> 0:50:58.200 seventh and it was sent from Hastings. There was another 0:50:58.280 --> 0:51:01.759 postcard Sally received from London, but she can't make out 0:51:01.800 --> 0:51:08.000 the postage stamp and whether it reads July fourth or fourteenth, regardless, 0:51:08.040 --> 0:51:11.640 it leaves about three weeks before Marion apparently headed back 0:51:11.680 --> 0:51:16.239 to Australia via Hong Kong. So what did she do 0:51:16.360 --> 0:51:17.080 in that time? 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:21.520 For those of you who don't know the UK very well, 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:23.400 if you trace her steps all the way down to 0:51:23.480 --> 0:51:26.719 Brighton where we finished following where she'd had been, there's 0:51:26.760 --> 0:51:29.480 actually the tunnel just up at Hastings there and we 0:51:29.520 --> 0:51:32.360 do have a postcard from Hastings and the tunnel is 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:36.239 where you go across to Europe. So I've had plenty 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:37.800 of people tell us you can go in that tunnel 0:51:37.840 --> 0:51:41.440 without actually hating to go through customs or any border 0:51:41.440 --> 0:51:43.440 security or anything like that. So it would have been 0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:47.640 very simple for her to jump across to Luxembourg and 0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:50.719 go and do what she supposedly said she was doing 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:53.520 and getting married and living in Luxembourg. But that makes 0:51:53.560 --> 0:51:55.319 no sense to me that she'd be in Hong Kong 0:51:55.360 --> 0:51:57.560 flying back from Hong Kong two and a half weeks later. 0:51:58.200 --> 0:52:00.479 We know that she definitely went back to London because 0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:05.360 I have date stamp from there, but there's no definitive 0:52:05.960 --> 0:52:07.440 in that two and a half weeks. We don't know 0:52:07.480 --> 0:52:09.560 where she went, or what she was doing, or who 0:52:09.600 --> 0:52:10.160 she was with. 0:52:10.680 --> 0:52:15.360 For Sally, the discovery of the outgoing passenger card is bittersweet. 0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:19.440 I was showing my daughter and she instantly said, so 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:21.880 she wanted to go missing. She deliberately wanted to go 0:52:21.920 --> 0:52:24.360 missing because she said that she's leaving permanently to go 0:52:24.400 --> 0:52:27.640 and live in Luxembourg and changed her name. I said 0:52:27.680 --> 0:52:31.760 to her, that's an interesting instant take on your feelings 0:52:31.800 --> 0:52:35.239 looking at that, because it's my belief that the Nissoplast 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:39.520 police particularly have looked at that document and instantly gone, oh, well, 0:52:39.560 --> 0:52:41.080 she deliberately wanted to go missing. 0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:41.920 You know. 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:43.920 Even Brian said, you know, oh, she lied to you, 0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:46.680 and I said, well, she didn't lie to me really, 0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:49.360 because she did say to me when she was leaving 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:52.920 that she had her shipping container that she put all 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:55.520 her belongings into. And she had said to me quite clearly, 0:52:55.920 --> 0:52:59.040 if I decided to stay overseas and teach, I will 0:52:59.040 --> 0:53:01.080 get you to send over the shipping container to me. 0:53:01.480 --> 0:53:03.520 So there was always that thought process in the back 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:06.439 of my mind that she potentially could be moving over 0:53:06.440 --> 0:53:08.880 there permanently. And we didn't have a problem with that. 0:53:09.000 --> 0:53:11.640 I mean, I was already established, Owe was established, and 0:53:12.320 --> 0:53:14.600 you know we didn't. It wasn't like we were at 0:53:14.600 --> 0:53:17.640 school and needed our mum. She was an older lady 0:53:17.680 --> 0:53:20.320 and you know, self sufficient to do whatever she wanted 0:53:20.320 --> 0:53:22.800 to do in life, and we had to be accepting 0:53:22.840 --> 0:53:24.920 of that. In my opinion, you know, I would if 0:53:24.960 --> 0:53:26.160 I said to her I was going to leave over 0:53:26.200 --> 0:53:27.800 and go and live overseas, I'd hate for her to 0:53:27.840 --> 0:53:30.320 sit there and make me feel bad about not wanting 0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:33.120 to go and fulfill my dream, so there's no right 0:53:33.160 --> 0:53:34.759 for me to do the same thing to her just 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:38.640 because she's my mum. So there was always a take 0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:40.719 on that she might not come back, that she might 0:53:40.760 --> 0:53:43.719 stay there. But at the same time, I didn't know 0:53:44.400 --> 0:53:47.160 Luxembourg was in the picture. I had no idea about that. 0:53:47.600 --> 0:53:49.520 I had no idea that she had changed her name. 0:53:50.440 --> 0:53:52.960 And we've done some more research on the name as well. 0:53:53.080 --> 0:53:57.759 And if you actually are married in Luxembourg, the law 0:53:57.880 --> 0:54:00.480 states that you keep your maiden name. So she had 0:54:00.560 --> 0:54:04.080 married a ramchurl over in Luxembourg and had gone over 0:54:04.120 --> 0:54:07.200 as Marian Barter, she would have still been Barter when 0:54:07.239 --> 0:54:09.880 she was over there after she got married. So we 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:12.560 sort of worked that out after looking and researching the 0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:15.479 laws in Luxembourg, and thought maybe it was the case 0:54:15.480 --> 0:54:17.640 that she wanted to change her name. She wanted to 0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:20.600 be associated with her partner, her new partner, so therefore 0:54:20.600 --> 0:54:24.080 she changed her name before she left. But what doesn't 0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:26.919 make any sense to me at all is the fact 0:54:27.000 --> 0:54:30.000 that she took all her luggage with her. You hear 0:54:30.080 --> 0:54:33.000 Leslie saying one of her best friends who put her 0:54:33.040 --> 0:54:34.640 on the bus and was the last known person to 0:54:34.680 --> 0:54:37.080 see her. How much luggage she had and how they 0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:39.280 were laughing about how much luggage she had. She writes 0:54:39.320 --> 0:54:42.000 in her postcards and her letters to us about how 0:54:42.040 --> 0:54:44.040 stupid it was for her to take so much luggage, 0:54:44.080 --> 0:54:46.400 and how she had store luggage at Heathrow Airport and 0:54:46.440 --> 0:54:48.880 she couldn't fit it in the car that she'd hired 0:54:48.960 --> 0:54:52.600 to travel around Sussex area and Kent while she was 0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:56.319 exploring the UK. So to me, it doesn't make any 0:54:56.360 --> 0:54:58.759 sense that someone would take all of that luggage with 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:02.759 them and then come back within five weeks after you've 0:55:02.800 --> 0:55:05.160 just ticked that you're permanently leaving and you're not coming 0:55:05.160 --> 0:55:08.920 back and you're living in Luxembourg. And it also doesn't 0:55:08.920 --> 0:55:11.799 make any sense to me that she went on a 0:55:11.920 --> 0:55:15.200 Korean Air flight, which is this is all new information 0:55:15.320 --> 0:55:17.800 for us that we were able to get through Geeper 0:55:18.320 --> 0:55:22.520 and then through confirmed on the outgoing card. So she 0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:24.760 flew out on a Korean Air flight on the twenty 0:55:24.760 --> 0:55:27.200 second of June nine to ninety seven. She then had 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:29.440 to get off in Korea. She then had to get 0:55:29.480 --> 0:55:33.560 on another flight, which we're not familiar with because once 0:55:34.520 --> 0:55:37.359 the understanding that I have and I've been told with 0:55:37.440 --> 0:55:40.360 Interpol is that they only keep records for your bound 0:55:40.400 --> 0:55:43.319 flight and your incoming flight. Anything happens outside of that 0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:46.320 realm falls under Interpol, and they only hold their records 0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:49.440 for seven years. So it's unlikely that we will know 0:55:49.880 --> 0:55:53.560 what dates she left Japan to go to the UK 0:55:53.840 --> 0:55:56.160 and how she got to Hong Kong, because that is 0:55:56.200 --> 0:55:58.600 all a bit of a mystery for us, unless Interpol 0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:01.279 miraculously have that information, which I'm sure that oh I 0:56:01.360 --> 0:56:03.560 see will be all over. But it is interesting to 0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:07.200 me that my mum wasn't short of money, so I 0:56:07.239 --> 0:56:10.840 don't understand. And in my conversations with Korean Air, I 0:56:10.880 --> 0:56:12.640 rang them and asked them the question. I had the 0:56:12.640 --> 0:56:14.640 flight number, and he said that's still a current flight 0:56:14.719 --> 0:56:17.600 number today. It's been operating for a long time, over 0:56:17.640 --> 0:56:21.200 twenty years. And he said it's a really popular option 0:56:21.280 --> 0:56:23.960 for people to get to Japan because they bounce over 0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:26.080 to South Korea and then they get on a different 0:56:26.120 --> 0:56:29.600 flight and it's only an hour transit to Japan from there. 0:56:30.000 --> 0:56:32.280 But for the fact that she had so much luggage 0:56:32.280 --> 0:56:33.600 and she would have had to pull all that off 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:36.879 the flight, go through baggage, go through customs, get onto 0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:40.200 a different flight wasn't like a connecting flight, so that 0:56:40.239 --> 0:56:42.080 would have been a real struggle for her. I would 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:44.000 have thought so to go to Japan for a couple 0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:48.040 of days and then go back into the UK. And 0:56:48.080 --> 0:56:49.880 the reason we know she was in Japan is because 0:56:50.320 --> 0:56:54.239 you might remember, I have a letter that's on the 0:56:54.280 --> 0:56:58.080 hotel notepad and an envelope from the hotel from where 0:56:58.080 --> 0:57:02.160 she was staying in Japan in Narita, So I kind 0:57:02.160 --> 0:57:04.000 of wonder about that sort of thing as well, Like 0:57:04.120 --> 0:57:07.440 is at her leaving little stones for us to track 0:57:07.520 --> 0:57:10.759 her and go I was here, I was here, This 0:57:10.800 --> 0:57:13.080 is where I was. I went to Sally's Craft in 0:57:13.280 --> 0:57:15.759 Alfreston and we were able to go there. We went 0:57:15.800 --> 0:57:18.680 to the cat shop in Brighton. So it's like she's 0:57:18.800 --> 0:57:21.320 left a little trail for us and we've done heaps 0:57:21.320 --> 0:57:23.640 of work in trying to work all of that out 0:57:23.640 --> 0:57:25.680 as well and work out where she was and what 0:57:25.800 --> 0:57:28.600 dates she's from the postcards that we have. Lucky that 0:57:28.640 --> 0:57:31.600 I've kept some, you know, sad that others haven't kept theirs, 0:57:31.640 --> 0:57:34.320 because that would have been amazing information to have. 0:57:34.920 --> 0:57:38.200 In episode nineteen, we could finally reveal the news we've 0:57:38.280 --> 0:57:45.720 all been hoping for Here's how we announced it. It's 0:57:46.000 --> 0:57:51.680 happening more than twenty three years since she hopped on 0:57:51.720 --> 0:57:55.240 a plane for the trip of a lifetime and vanished. 0:57:59.160 --> 0:58:02.200 More than half a lifetime since daughter Sally last heard 0:58:02.240 --> 0:58:05.720 her mother's voice on the phone. 0:58:05.880 --> 0:58:09.440 We are pleased and relieved to announce that a coronial 0:58:09.480 --> 0:58:13.360 inquiry slash inquest will be held into the nineteen ninety 0:58:13.360 --> 0:58:19.120 seven disappearance of Marion Barter. On August sixth, twenty twenty, 0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:22.480 the New South Wales Crown Solicitor's Office sent the following 0:58:22.520 --> 0:58:24.240 email to Sally Laden. 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:29.400 Dear miss Leyden in Quest into the disappearance of Marian Barter, 0:58:30.080 --> 0:58:34.400 also known as Florabella Remacle. I'm writing to advise you 0:58:34.440 --> 0:58:37.520 that the State Coroner has confirmed that an inquest into 0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:40.840 the disappearance of your mother Marian will be held, and 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:44.240 that the State Coroner will preside over the hearing. At 0:58:44.240 --> 0:58:46.880 this stage, I anticipate that the hearing will take place 0:58:47.000 --> 0:58:50.160 in the second half of twenty twenty one. However, no 0:58:50.360 --> 0:58:54.200 formal listing arrangements have yet been made. I also confirm 0:58:54.280 --> 0:58:57.640 that this information may be made public. I understand that 0:58:57.680 --> 0:58:59.600 you would like a copy of the brief evidence as 0:58:59.600 --> 0:59:02.360 soon as possible, and every effort will be made to 0:59:02.360 --> 0:59:06.840 make this available to you at the earliest opportunity. Yours, faithfully, 0:59:06.960 --> 0:59:10.480 Sarah Nija, Solicitor the Crown Solicitor. 0:59:12.120 --> 0:59:16.080 For Sally. The announcement of an inquest is validation for 0:59:16.120 --> 0:59:18.280 never giving up on her Mum. 0:59:18.920 --> 0:59:21.040 I've been told a few times, and we've spoken about 0:59:21.040 --> 0:59:23.640 that a few times, that it is going to inquest. 0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:26.520 But for me, in my heart, I wasn't satisfied until 0:59:26.560 --> 0:59:29.240 I got it in writing that the coroner was going 0:59:29.280 --> 0:59:30.240 to take it to in quest. 0:59:30.760 --> 0:59:32.800 It is also a bittersweet. 0:59:33.080 --> 0:59:35.760 I feel like it's a double edged swords. I don't 0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:38.480 know anybody that I've met who's happy or excited about 0:59:38.520 --> 0:59:41.000 going to in quest into the death of their loved 0:59:41.080 --> 0:59:43.200 one or potential murder. 0:59:43.760 --> 0:59:48.120 However, knowing an inquest is now definite does strengthen her resolve. 0:59:48.680 --> 0:59:51.680 This is my chance that someone is actually recognizing that 0:59:51.760 --> 0:59:54.480 my mum is actually missing. And when you've been dealing 0:59:54.480 --> 0:59:57.320 with what I've been dealing with, I've had Mum's family 0:59:57.440 --> 1:00:01.120 who have told me relentlessly that she's not missing and 1:00:01.160 --> 1:00:03.600 just leave it alone and let it lie. And you know, 1:00:03.720 --> 1:00:06.480 she wanted to start her own life. I've had the 1:00:06.480 --> 1:00:09.600 police and the detectives tell me she changed her name. 1:00:09.680 --> 1:00:12.360 She wanted to go missing. You know, she's missing on 1:00:12.400 --> 1:00:15.040 her own account. Yet no one can find her, and 1:00:15.040 --> 1:00:17.400 no one can verify any of their claims. You know, 1:00:17.840 --> 1:00:20.200 only three years ago, I was pretty much knocking my 1:00:20.240 --> 1:00:23.000 head against the wall, thinking this is ridiculous. I actually 1:00:23.000 --> 1:00:26.120 don't know what to do because no one was taking 1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:29.160 me seriously and no one was listening to me. When 1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:31.200 I was saying that she's a missing person. I was 1:00:31.720 --> 1:00:35.160 just getting doors shut in my face constantly, and everyone 1:00:35.240 --> 1:00:37.120 was putting it in the two hard basket. 1:00:37.560 --> 1:00:40.560 She's hoping this will bring me answers she's been seeking 1:00:40.800 --> 1:00:44.400 for so long, not just for herself but her family. 1:00:44.760 --> 1:00:47.160 I feel if we go to a coronial in quest 1:00:47.200 --> 1:00:49.320 and they do everything in their power to try and 1:00:49.360 --> 1:00:52.320 find the answers and they still can't do that, I 1:00:52.360 --> 1:00:55.880 can rest myself and go I've done everything I possibly 1:00:55.920 --> 1:00:57.439 could have done to find her. 1:00:57.880 --> 1:01:01.480 In episode nineteen, we shared the news of the inquest 1:01:01.720 --> 1:01:05.440 with lots of Sally supporters, including the Levison family. Think 1:01:05.640 --> 1:01:08.160 I wanted to let you know that we finally have 1:01:08.240 --> 1:01:08.760 the inquest. 1:01:09.400 --> 1:01:12.720 I can't express my delight how happy in police Land 1:01:12.720 --> 1:01:16.400 for Sally and the family that they achieved. That that's 1:01:16.440 --> 1:01:18.760 been a tremendous acknowledgment of all the work they're put 1:01:18.840 --> 1:01:21.680 in and what it would mean now that the inquest 1:01:22.040 --> 1:01:27.840 unlike a court trial, the inquest is inquisitorial and not 1:01:28.080 --> 1:01:31.640 adversarial like a trial. And the big distinction is that 1:01:31.720 --> 1:01:34.840 the inquest is a fact on the exercise. The coroner 1:01:35.960 --> 1:01:38.760 is now tasked. We're finding if there was a death, 1:01:39.560 --> 1:01:42.800 the manner and cause of death. And important as well 1:01:42.960 --> 1:01:45.919 is that the in the South Wales the Evidence Act 1:01:46.040 --> 1:01:50.240 doesn't apply, which means that unlike in the criminal trial, 1:01:50.840 --> 1:01:53.880 I'll use that as an example. You know, we lost 1:01:53.920 --> 1:01:58.160 a good quarter the time with the things arguing what 1:01:58.320 --> 1:02:00.640 evidence would bemitted to be heard of the jury and 1:02:00.640 --> 1:02:03.880 what wouldn't and that wastes so much time to list 1:02:03.960 --> 1:02:07.480 here with everything, it's open sight everything. 1:02:08.920 --> 1:02:12.080 We also informed Rebecca CONTs, who used to work on 1:02:12.160 --> 1:02:15.480 missing persons cases with the Australian Federal Police. 1:02:15.800 --> 1:02:17.800 Hey, there's one thing I didn't tell the other day 1:02:17.960 --> 1:02:20.480 because I wanted to let you know I am recording now, 1:02:20.560 --> 1:02:24.160 so I wanted to get your action without you already knowing. 1:02:24.200 --> 1:02:27.320 But we have a bit of good news. I don't 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:30.040 know whether sales told you yet. 1:02:29.920 --> 1:02:32.080 But I has been that on the back of my neck. 1:02:32.200 --> 1:02:33.120 Tell me you found it. 1:02:33.640 --> 1:02:37.960 Oh God, I wish, I wish, but it's not that 1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:41.280 good it is, but it is still really good news. 1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:43.080 We are getting an inquest. 1:02:44.120 --> 1:02:46.000 Oh well, that's the next best thing. 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:48.360 Okay, awesome New South Wales. 1:02:48.080 --> 1:02:49.760 Or Queensland in New South Wales. 1:02:49.880 --> 1:02:50.880 Yeah, okay, good. 1:02:51.120 --> 1:02:53.960 There are so many outcomes well, things that have come 1:02:53.960 --> 1:02:56.960 out of inquests. There's been further investigations and everything. So 1:02:57.440 --> 1:03:00.000 it's a very exciting time. And as someone who's been 1:03:00.120 --> 1:03:04.640 a big supporter right from the very beginning back, you know, 1:03:04.720 --> 1:03:08.760 I'm sure as you know that everything will be laid 1:03:08.760 --> 1:03:09.560 out to bear. 1:03:10.120 --> 1:03:13.800 Absolutely, and I can tell you now I've shared the 1:03:13.920 --> 1:03:16.400 posts as far and wise as I can every time 1:03:16.440 --> 1:03:20.320 there's been a new episode released and things like that, 1:03:20.520 --> 1:03:26.800 and I've seen the interest in the podcast and the 1:03:27.200 --> 1:03:29.919 amount of people that have logged on and had looked 1:03:29.920 --> 1:03:33.800 at and heard it grow expidentially, I've had people coming 1:03:33.800 --> 1:03:36.400 out of the woodworks that have heard me on it, 1:03:36.600 --> 1:03:40.760 that know me from previous lives and it's blown me 1:03:40.760 --> 1:03:43.240 away how far it's reached all across the world. So 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:43.800 it's great. 1:03:44.320 --> 1:03:48.320 Great And thirteen years after being removed as the face 1:03:48.360 --> 1:03:52.240 of Missing Persons Week, Sally Layden was invited to front 1:03:52.280 --> 1:03:56.320 the campaign for Missing Person's Week in Australia in twenty twenty. 1:03:56.920 --> 1:03:59.960 I look when I got the phone call to say 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:03.960 that Sally was or her mother's case was the highlighted 1:04:04.000 --> 1:04:07.120 profile for Missing Persons Week this year for twenty twenty. 1:04:07.240 --> 1:04:11.240 I nobody was more elated about it than me because 1:04:11.280 --> 1:04:12.959 it was well over due by at. 1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:17.160 At least ten years, thirteen years, thirteen years. Two thousand 1:04:17.160 --> 1:04:18.560 and seven was your one, wasn't it? 1:04:18.600 --> 1:04:20.120 So twenty twenty it. 1:04:20.080 --> 1:04:23.560 Was unfortunately for me not be with the AFP and 1:04:23.640 --> 1:04:26.360 actually being away from Camber myself. I would have done 1:04:26.400 --> 1:04:28.760 easy to have been there just to morally support her. 1:04:29.280 --> 1:04:30.760 But I was so glad that I knew it and 1:04:30.920 --> 1:04:34.520 they were send her a message of support. Our profiles 1:04:34.880 --> 1:04:40.320 when I say out the Austrangeentil Police campaigns reached a 1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:44.760 massive audience now with social media, and you know that's 1:04:45.440 --> 1:04:49.560 profile of Marian and the information around her case will 1:04:49.600 --> 1:04:51.840 go far and wide across the world as well as 1:04:51.880 --> 1:04:56.560 just domestically here in Australia. So thank goodness, although thirteen 1:04:56.640 --> 1:04:59.919 years too late, it was great to still get that folk. 1:05:00.040 --> 1:05:01.000 It's on the cave. 1:05:01.600 --> 1:05:04.560 Eight four hundred and forty two days ago, and this 1:05:04.680 --> 1:05:07.400 time she got to have her say on behalf of 1:05:07.440 --> 1:05:11.280 all of the families searching for missing loved ones. This 1:05:11.400 --> 1:05:12.360 is part of the speech. 1:05:12.640 --> 1:05:15.640 The thirty eight thousand individuals that are reported missing to 1:05:15.680 --> 1:05:18.400 police on Australia each year, there are only twenty six 1:05:18.760 --> 1:05:21.480 one hundred that remain who are regarded as long term missing, 1:05:21.920 --> 1:05:25.080 meaning longer than three months. A smaller number falls into 1:05:25.120 --> 1:05:28.360 yet another category, which is that of plus fifteen years 1:05:28.480 --> 1:05:31.720 missing without a trace. These cases make up more than 1:05:31.760 --> 1:05:35.160 sixty percent of the current long term registered missing persons 1:05:35.160 --> 1:05:37.800 here in Australia. Many people tell me how they pray 1:05:38.240 --> 1:05:41.360 and hope that I will one day have closure. Closure 1:05:41.440 --> 1:05:43.320 to those of us in the missing world is not 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:47.400 always our reality. Rather, it's best described as ambiguous loss, 1:05:48.400 --> 1:05:52.440 a loss that occurs without closure or clear understanding. This 1:05:52.560 --> 1:05:54.600 is the kind of loss leaves a person searching for 1:05:54.640 --> 1:05:58.080 answers and thus complicates the delays the process of grieving 1:05:58.640 --> 1:06:01.800 and resulting in unre sol grief. Have you ever done 1:06:01.800 --> 1:06:04.920 a puzzle. It may have taken you days, even weeks 1:06:04.960 --> 1:06:07.680 to finish, but you get to the end and you're 1:06:07.680 --> 1:06:12.400 missing that last piece. Frustration kicks in, then anger, before 1:06:12.400 --> 1:06:15.160 sadness or the realization that all your hard work you 1:06:15.200 --> 1:06:19.080 cannot complete your puzzle. You have failed. That is what 1:06:19.120 --> 1:06:21.880 my life feels like. You come up with a new theory, 1:06:22.160 --> 1:06:26.200 you spend hours, days, weeks, months, even years putting the 1:06:26.240 --> 1:06:29.200 puzzle pieces together, but more often than not, you're simply 1:06:29.280 --> 1:06:34.160 left with the missing piece of that puzzle, countless hours 1:06:34.200 --> 1:06:37.000 mulling over every finer detail that could be the missing 1:06:37.040 --> 1:06:40.960 piece to what has been your biggest puzzle you've ever undertaken. 1:06:40.960 --> 1:06:44.160 Under tight COVID nineteen restrictions. At the beginning of August, 1:06:44.560 --> 1:06:47.800 Sally and her nineteen year old daughter Ella traveled south 1:06:47.880 --> 1:06:49.240 to Canberra for the event. 1:06:49.520 --> 1:06:51.840 Because it's quite daunting walking into a room and you've 1:06:51.880 --> 1:06:56.360 got ministers and commissioners of Police and Federal Police and 1:06:56.760 --> 1:07:00.160 Federal Plasee everywhere in uniform. But I will say that 1:07:00.320 --> 1:07:03.960 all the people down there were absolutely beautiful. I've thanked 1:07:04.000 --> 1:07:07.200 Trish Halligan from the head of the coordination down there 1:07:07.400 --> 1:07:12.400 for inviting us to come down, and her staff like amazing, 1:07:12.640 --> 1:07:15.840 just such beautiful people, So it made us feel so welcome, 1:07:16.040 --> 1:07:19.840 and I was really quite honored to be asked to 1:07:19.840 --> 1:07:22.120 come down and be the face of long term missing 1:07:22.200 --> 1:07:27.720 persons because for me, as much as my story is 1:07:27.760 --> 1:07:31.080 what I've been telling as it's rolled on, I feel 1:07:31.120 --> 1:07:33.120 I can be a bit of a voice for other 1:07:33.160 --> 1:07:36.600 people and if we can push harder, we will get answers. 1:07:36.680 --> 1:07:38.800 And for those people who don't have a voice, I'm 1:07:38.840 --> 1:07:42.080 trying my hardest to make that voice, not just for me, 1:07:42.160 --> 1:07:44.200 but for everybody who's in the same situation. 1:07:48.160 --> 1:07:51.760 At the event, the Australian Federal Police Commissioner rhes Kershaw 1:07:52.080 --> 1:07:55.720 announced a three point six million dollar program to DNA 1:07:55.880 --> 1:07:59.120 test human bones in a bid to solve long term 1:07:59.120 --> 1:08:02.600 missing person's can These are bones that have been found 1:08:02.640 --> 1:08:06.640 fifteen or more years ago in various places all around Australia, 1:08:06.840 --> 1:08:14.640 but never identified bones which could possibly include Marion's. So 1:08:14.880 --> 1:08:18.040 with bones being tested and a brief of evidence coming 1:08:18.040 --> 1:08:22.000 her way, Sally feels like she is finally making solid progress. 1:08:22.560 --> 1:08:23.879 She's even sent a letter. 1:08:23.680 --> 1:08:26.599 To the new South Wales Police Minister seeking a two 1:08:26.720 --> 1:08:30.160 hundred and fifty thousand dollar reward for information leading to 1:08:30.200 --> 1:08:31.360 the whereabouts of her mother. 1:08:33.560 --> 1:08:36.160 When I first met you, if you'd ask me what 1:08:36.240 --> 1:08:38.720 my end goal was, it would have been to get 1:08:38.760 --> 1:08:41.040 to a coronial in quest and have the best of 1:08:41.080 --> 1:08:45.480 the best looking at it and researching it and investigating 1:08:45.520 --> 1:08:46.040 it properly. 1:08:47.280 --> 1:08:51.679 Someone out there knows something that's going to be able 1:08:51.760 --> 1:08:55.559 to finish every missing person's case. It doesn't matter how 1:08:55.640 --> 1:08:58.400 much time goes by or what happens. I want out 1:08:58.400 --> 1:09:01.560 there somewhere in those the key piece of information that 1:09:01.640 --> 1:09:04.360 set in to Silvy for these cases. 1:09:15.600 --> 1:09:18.200 And that brings our catch up series to a conclusion. 1:09:18.479 --> 1:09:22.400 From episode twenty we began our Inquest coverage, which is 1:09:22.640 --> 1:09:26.120 very in depth. Episodes twenty to twenty five covered the 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:30.000 first two weeks of Inquest in June July twenty twenty one. 1:09:30.640 --> 1:09:32.800 To be honest, a lot of the evidence from these 1:09:32.840 --> 1:09:35.680 early sessions we already knew, and a lot of the 1:09:35.720 --> 1:09:40.040 witnesses we'd already spoken to. However, there was the announcement 1:09:40.080 --> 1:09:42.720 of a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar reward the 1:09:42.760 --> 1:09:47.160 information leading to a conviction over Marian's disappearance and six 1:09:47.200 --> 1:09:50.560 months later, that reward sum was doubled. 1:09:52.920 --> 1:09:56.639 And then the inquest was set down for an extra 1:09:56.720 --> 1:10:01.160 week in February twenty twenty two, which became two weeks, 1:10:01.200 --> 1:10:04.519 and then even more days were added in April, and 1:10:04.560 --> 1:10:08.000 that's when things really got interesting and all of the 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:09.840 dots started connecting. 1:10:12.640 --> 1:10:16.360 Police had tracked down a man named Rick Blum, a 1:10:16.439 --> 1:10:19.479 man who lived in northern New South Wales, not too 1:10:19.560 --> 1:10:22.080 far from where Marion lived on the Gold Coast. 1:10:22.800 --> 1:10:27.240 A man originally from Belgium who'd previously lived in Luxembourg 1:10:27.400 --> 1:10:28.639 and southern England. 1:10:28.920 --> 1:10:32.960 A man with more than thirty one aliases, including the 1:10:33.080 --> 1:10:36.440 nand Remarkale, who he knew of when he lived in Luxembourg. 1:10:36.840 --> 1:10:41.160 In fact, he'd had a relationship with mister Remarkle's former wife, 1:10:41.400 --> 1:10:43.160 Manique Cornelius. 1:10:43.720 --> 1:10:47.000 A man who admitted placing a lonely heartsad in the 1:10:47.000 --> 1:10:51.640 French Lucurier, Australian newspaper in nineteen ninety four by a 1:10:51.720 --> 1:10:55.440 man seeking a woman for a long term relationship or marriage. 1:10:56.360 --> 1:10:59.400 A man who had a history of charming other women 1:10:59.600 --> 1:11:02.760 with access to large sums of money, A man who 1:11:02.840 --> 1:11:06.120 promised them a new life in Europe, and even took 1:11:06.200 --> 1:11:10.200 one to England, only to leave her behind, a man. 1:11:10.040 --> 1:11:13.240 Who admits to having a relationship with Marion Barter in 1:11:13.320 --> 1:11:16.439 the weeks before she suddenly decided to quit her job, 1:11:16.880 --> 1:11:19.200 sell her house, and take a trip overseas. 1:11:22.320 --> 1:11:25.680 The evidence from this Rick Blum and the other witnesses 1:11:25.680 --> 1:11:29.880 connected with him is compelling and incredible and far too 1:11:29.960 --> 1:11:34.920 detailed to sum up here. Episodes twenty six and beyond 1:11:35.280 --> 1:11:39.160 will reveal exactly what the police have discovered. 1:11:39.400 --> 1:11:42.240 And it won't be long before we're back. We're counting 1:11:42.280 --> 1:12:01.920 the days until the inquest findings are handed down. If 1:12:01.920 --> 1:12:04.960 you knew Marion or have any information about her or 1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:08.160 her whereabouts, we'd love to hear from you. Our website 1:12:08.200 --> 1:12:12.360 is sevennews dot com that au forward slash news Forward 1:12:12.360 --> 1:12:15.479 slash the Lady Vanishers, and you can also message us 1:12:15.520 --> 1:12:19.639 here or anonymously at the Lady Vanishers dot org. 1:12:22.960 --> 1:12:24.520 If you like what you're hearing. 1:12:24.320 --> 1:12:27.639 Don't forget to subscribe, Please rate and review our series. 1:12:27.720 --> 1:12:29.400 It helps new listeners to find us. 1:12:34.640 --> 1:12:39.479 Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist 1:12:39.600 --> 1:12:44.439 Brian Seymour, Producer and writer Sally Eels, Sound design Mark 1:12:44.479 --> 1:12:51.040 Wright transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins and Alie Sinclair. Graphics Jason Blandford. 1:12:56.439 --> 1:12:58.599 This is a seven News production.