1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now. This is 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: the podcast of the time for parent who just wants 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: answers now. Today it's all about reading and your kids, 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: whether they're little kids who are just sounding out their 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: first words or big kids who have decided that the 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: telephone and screen is more exciting than anything they can 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: read in a book. Today, it's a podcast that you 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: want to hear because reading is so foundational for every 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: success that our kids have in life. I say this 11 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: all the time on the podcast. Readers are leaders and 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: leaders are readers. My guest on the podcast today is 13 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: the Australian Children's Laureate. If you're not sure what a 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: laureate is, and if you didn't know that Australia had 15 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: a Children's Laureate, we'll talk about that in a second, 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: but please may I introduce you to Sally Rippons. Sally 17 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: is the eighth Australian Children's Laureate. She is Australia's highest 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: selling female author, with wait for it, over ten million 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: that's million, ten million books in print around the globe, 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: more than one hundred books for children and young people 21 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 1: to her name, including the wildly popular Billy b. Brown 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: and Hey Jack series, as well A School of Monsters 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: and Polly and Buster. Sally writes stories with heart and 24 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers are light 25 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: and Sally, we're here to talk about reading. So glad 26 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: that you're with me on the Happy Families podcast. Thank 27 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: you for chatting, Thank you for having me. 28 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be here too. Justin. 29 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what a laureate is, because this is 30 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: a fancy word that most of us don't use every day. 31 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: It's true, so lauriates exist all around the world. The 32 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,639 Speaker 2: Australian Children's Laureate has only been around, probably for about 33 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: sixteen years. I think our first ones were Alison Lester 34 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: and bury Monty Pryor. And basically we are chosen by 35 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 2: our peers and a board and a committee. And what 36 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: a lauriate does is represent the body of children's authors 37 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: and illustrators in Australia. So say, for example, Justin, you 38 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: want to know something about kids books. You think, okay, 39 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: I'll call the Laureate and I'm here for you. 40 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: That's so good of you. So a children's lauriate means 41 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: that you're focused primarily on getting books into kids hands. 42 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: You're interested in helping authors to write books that kids 43 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: want to read, your interest in helping teachers and parents 44 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: to get those books read by the kids. Can we 45 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: just take a step back and talk a bit about 46 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: the research. Why for people who don't really think that 47 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: reading is a big deal, maybe don't have too many 48 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: books on the shelf, and you're pretty happy for the 49 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: kids to get outside and play or stare at their screen. 50 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: Why do we need to emphasize and elevate reading. 51 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: Well, as you said in your introduction, Justin is that 52 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: everything requires reading. So the reason why I'm particularly passionate 53 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: about this and my mission is all kids can be readers, 54 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: is because there will always be children who fall through 55 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: the gap. And this was the case with my youngest son. 56 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 2: I learned to read before I started school. My two 57 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: older boys were the same. But my youngest son plateaued 58 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 2: in grade three and we had him assessed and he's dyslexic. 59 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: So this was about, oh, it must be twelve years ago, 60 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 2: and that's when I started to write the Billy B. 61 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: Brown and Hate Jack series for kids who struggled to read. 62 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: But I've since learned that there are many more things 63 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: that we can do to support kids that struggle to read, 64 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 2: because the first three years really we're focused on kids 65 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: learning to read, and from after grade three we're expecting 66 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: them to read to learn. So if they missed those 67 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: really vital years, they'll always be playing catch up. And 68 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 2: as I found with my son once he started high school, 69 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: it wasn't just about engaging fantastic stories, which is of 70 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: course important as it is, but every subject requires reading. 71 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: The way you express yourself, the way you can show 72 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: what you've learned, and all the knowledge that your story 73 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: is all through language and literacy. So he really his 74 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: self esteem plummeted, his mental health really went down, and 75 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: I recognized how important reading is not just for engaging 76 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: great books, but for everything we do in life. 77 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: Sally, I love the emphasis on everyone being reader that 78 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: you've highlighted. You've mentioned your son's dyslexia. There are plenty 79 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: of parents who are listen to this podcast who is 80 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: kids neurodivergent ADHD autism, And what we again find is 81 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: when competence is low, when kids are struggling with something, 82 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: they tend to be less motivated to do it. They 83 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: just don't want to be there. You couple that with 84 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: the reality that there are some pretty enticing alternative activities 85 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: outside of books, and it makes for a really complicated 86 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: and challenging scenario for parents who desperately want that eight 87 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: year old ADHD kid, or that six year old dyslexic kid, 88 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: or just that wonderful child who won't pick up a book? 89 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: What do we do to get books into their hands 90 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: and help them to find I mean, I'm a reader. 91 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: I read probably fifty forty to fifty books a year. 92 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: For me, this is a thing, right, I just care 93 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: so much about it, and I know what a different 94 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: owned books just open up worlds. What do we do 95 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: to get these kids that are just saying not for me, 96 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: not competent, doesn't feel good? How do we get them reading? 97 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: So there's a few things I'm not sure if you saw. 98 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: A few weeks ago justin the grata and report came 99 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: at and identified that a third of our children are 100 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: getting through primary school without having required reading skills to 101 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: really perform well in life. So those are just really 102 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 2: basic skills, not even just being able to enjoy good stories, 103 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: and we know reading stories other people's stories are important 104 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 2: for developing empathy, they develop your vocabulary, they'll help you 105 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: make connections with stories and how other people might live 106 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: in the world. And so of course we want our 107 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: children to be readers, and so we really need to 108 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: get intervention and identification happening really early on, so pretty 109 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: much as soon as a child starts school, if a teacher, 110 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: as you say, has identified there might be some neurological 111 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: differences there. My son later was identified as also having 112 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: ADHD and so obviously had some challenges reading, not just 113 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: through dyslexia, but also paying attention. And so those kids 114 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 2: are just going to need some extra support, and we 115 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 2: want to build a team around these kids, with the teachers, 116 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: potentially with support outside of the school. But always there 117 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 2: will be kids who just find reading a real struggle. 118 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 2: And that's where I would say, don't be snobby about 119 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: what they read. I really really was, you know, because 120 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: like you, I was a reader. I wanted my child 121 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: to read Charlotte's Web and love it like I had. 122 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: I read it aloud to him justin and this is 123 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: just there's you an example of his focus at the 124 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: end of the book, when I was crying and I 125 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: was like, oh, and Charlotte died. And he turned to 126 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: me and he said, who's Charlotte again? All right, this 127 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: is a kid that hasn't engaged with stories in the 128 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 2: same way as me. So look for other things. Your 129 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: child likes cooking, read cookbooks with them. Your child loves 130 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: cars read Carmeny was with the graphic novels, comics, the 131 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: fantastic ways to get kids to engage with stories. And 132 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: my son, who's now twenty, reads subtitles on anime on movies, 133 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: So you know, he has found a reason to really 134 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 2: want to build up his reading skills because he's found 135 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: something that he can connect with. 136 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: This bear of mind like subtitles just drives me crazy. 137 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: And yet I have to pause and think that they 138 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: are reading. I know that they're reading and listening, but 139 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: they're reading. And just recently, I was watching a show 140 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: that was in Spanish, and I'm learning Spanish, and while 141 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: I'm learning Spanish and watching this show, I'm thinking, oh 142 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: my goodness, all of it started to click and I 143 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: suddenly had this new appreciation for subtitles. You said, don't 144 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: be a reading snob, And for me this has been 145 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: a big thing because I care so much about great 146 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: literature and great books and great learning. Our youngest really, 147 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: we just couldn't get her reading, could not get her 148 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: to pick up a book no matter what. And I'm 149 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: talking about all the best ones that I've sat and 150 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,119 Speaker 1: like Bridge to terror Bithia. I've sat there and cried 151 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: with my older kids as I've read it to them, 152 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: and The Princess Bride and Nania, all of all these classics, 153 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: and she just wouldn't touch anything. And then one day 154 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: we found her. She'd borrowed a book from the library. 155 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: It was a graphic novel, like literally, a comic book 156 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: about dragons, Wings of Fire. I'm sure you know the 157 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: wings are fire books. And I just I robbed my eyes. 158 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: I looked down my nose so much disdain, and I'm like, oh, 159 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: my goodness, I've got I've got a seven year old 160 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: girl reading a comic book about dragons. And I don't 161 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: really like the tone of the book. There's a lot 162 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: that I don't like about it. And then I pause 163 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: and thought, oh no, this is this is my opportunity 164 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: to practice what I preach. And so I took a 165 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: deep breath and I said, to you like it? And 166 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: she said yes, and I said, would you like to 167 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: get the next one when you finished that? And she 168 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: looked at me, Sally, with the widest eyes and just 169 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: said really, So I said yeah. And in the end, 170 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: I think we probably have twenty or twenty five Wings 171 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: of Fire books and our bookshelf now. But the Wings 172 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: of Fire led to she wanted to watch Harry Potter, 173 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: and we said, well, read the book first. She's now 174 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: read four or five of the Harry Potter books, which 175 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: also led to her wanting to watch pet Percy Jackson, 176 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: and we've said, well before you watch it, read the book. 177 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: So now she's reading book four or book five of 178 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: Percy Jackson. And this kid who three or four years 179 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: ago would not pick up a book is reading fantastic stuff. 180 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: She's like, I can't get a turn off the light 181 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: and go to bed at night. She won't stop reading. 182 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: The idea that you shared around just getting them into books, 183 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: and the other thing that you said about being involved 184 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:14,119 Speaker 1: reading with them, these things just resonate so so much. 185 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: So important. And also she gets to see her parents reading, 186 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 2: which is exactly what you're doing. And I'm always saying 187 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: to Dad's if you want to get your boys reading. 188 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: Let them see you reading. You know, if we're sending 189 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: them off into their room to read their school reader, 190 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: that feels like a punishment. Let reading be a joyous 191 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: thing that the family does, read with your child. And 192 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: audiobooks amazing. So there will always be kids who struggle 193 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 2: to read. They may be dyslexic, they may be vision impaired, 194 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 2: but you can access all of these wonderful stories through audiobooks. 195 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: So another thing I really want to champion is not 196 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 2: only do we want to allow kids to choose their 197 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: own reading material and how they access stories, but let's 198 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 2: not be a snob about it. You know, I think 199 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 2: it's really important. If I was to joke with you 200 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: justin about how bad I am at maths, you wouldn't 201 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: judge my intelligence. But if I tell you that I'm 202 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: bad at reading or writing straight away, people make assumptions 203 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 2: about our intelligence. So another thing I'm really passionate about 204 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 2: doing is the children's laureate as I travel the country 205 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: is to remember that there will be kids that will 206 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 2: always struggle to read and ensure that they find other 207 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: ways to access stories, whether it's through audiobooks, whether it's 208 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: through oral storytelling or reading aloud to them, don't really 209 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: write them up so quickly, because stories are available to 210 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,239 Speaker 2: everybody in many different formats. 211 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: Sally Rippin is the eighth Australian Children's Laureate, the highest 212 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: selling female author Australia has ever produced, and Sally is 213 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: on a mission to help everyone know that all kids 214 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: can be readers. This is going to sound like a 215 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: strange thing to say, Sally, but based on what you've 216 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: just mentioned, this idea that if our kids are falling behind, 217 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: like there's that issue around if you don't read well, 218 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: people actually assess your intelligence differently versus if you don't 219 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: maths well. Everyone laughs, Math's whatever, but reading is a 220 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: big deal. I'm presently writing a book about bringing up boys, 221 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: and I'm writing some education chapters. At every level, it 222 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: seems that our boys are lagging girls when it comes 223 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: to academic outcomes. They're lagging in terms of year twelve completion, 224 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: they're lagging in terms of going to university. They're absolutely 225 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: lagging in terms of graduating from university. And this matter 226 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: is in a couple of really important ways. First of all, 227 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: we know that the better you do educationally, the more 228 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: likely is that you go to earn more, so you'll 229 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: be financially more stable. But something else thought I was 230 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: really fascinated by as I was doing this research is 231 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: and this is a sort of a thorny place to go, 232 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: but I want to go there anyway, because the data 233 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: really points here. There's a dating and mating problem that's 234 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: associated with education. So studies show that while men are 235 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: happy to date and marry at an education and an 236 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: economic level that's either up, down, or level with their 237 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: own accomplishments, women feel differently, and data points to women 238 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: marrying at either the same level educationally and economically or up. 239 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: So women are less likely to date and marry at 240 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: the same level or down. They seem to go up, 241 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: which means that with fewer men achieving or exceeding the 242 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: same status that women attain when it comes to education 243 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: and economic outcomes, the dating and mating pool is an 244 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: increasingly challenging place for both men and women. When I 245 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: look at stats like that, I think this conversation becomes 246 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: even more important because from a statistical perspective, our boys 247 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: don't read like girls read, and therefore our boys aren't 248 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: having the same educational outcomes. This is not just about 249 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: doing well at school. This is something that affects our 250 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: entire lives, our companionships, our relationships, our finances obviously, but 251 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: the way that we interact with people throughout the rest 252 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: of our lives. I wonder if you have any comments 253 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: on that. 254 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think if you even look at the 255 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: education environment starting from when kids are very young, and 256 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: you may be covering this in your book, but it's 257 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: very female dominated. Most primary school teachers are female. You 258 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: usually the person who interacts with your child's teacher is 259 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 2: the mother, and often it's mothers that are taking kids 260 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: to bookstores to buy books and reading with them. So 261 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: little boys are growing up thinking not only is reading 262 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: not a masculine thing to do, but even education is 263 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 2: very female dominated. Studies also show that boys can often 264 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: develop behind girls as well, and so they're often going 265 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 2: to feel on the back foot, so they're in an 266 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: environment where they're told to be very quiet, to sit 267 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 2: very still, and we know also their developmental motor skills 268 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: can be behind girls. So even sitting at a desk 269 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: and writing can be too much to ask of an 270 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 2: active young boy. So we really do need to look 271 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: at how our schools can be more boyfriendly in a way, 272 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: but also the way that we judge accomplishments and achievements. 273 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: I really had to reassess that with my youngest son 274 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: because while he was in great when he was in 275 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: year ten, he was teaching himself university level calculus, but 276 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: because he couldn't write an essay on Shakespeare, he wasn't 277 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: able to pass school. So even the fact that we 278 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 2: only judge intelligence in a particular way, we'll always put 279 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: boys were often sorry, put boys on the back foot. 280 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: And I think we really need to break down these 281 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 2: stereotypes of how we measure intelligence, what intelligence looks like, 282 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: and the opportunity is available for neurodivergent people once they 283 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 2: leave school. 284 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: This is really fascinating. One more question on this, how 285 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: do we help boys to love reading? Like, how do 286 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: we make reading more masculine? Because reading doesn't feel like 287 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: kicking a footy, it's not as tactile. It does require 288 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: sitting still and concentrating and staring at words on a page. 289 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't see reading as being feminine or masculine. 290 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: It's just something that I love to do. But I 291 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: guess the question on my mind based on this tangent 292 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: of a conversation is how do we get the kids, 293 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: how do we get the boys, especially into books so 294 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: that they're more likely to have these positive outcomes. 295 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: I think the number one thing is for them to 296 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: see men reading, and I think not just their dads, 297 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: but let's have a whole campaign where we're seeing footballers read, 298 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: and we're seeing all kinds of sports stars reading, so 299 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: that boys see it's a really cool masculine thing to do. 300 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: And many of my my friends who are children's authors 301 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: are often thinking of boys as they're writing their books. 302 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 2: And so, you know, let boys choose the kind of 303 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 2: books they're interested in. It may not be Charlotte's where 304 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: it might be something else, but really engaged with the 305 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: material that they're drawn to. Rather than wanting them to 306 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: be more like we think there should be, let's listen 307 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: to them a little bit more and see what they're 308 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: interested in and connect with them that way. 309 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: Let me ask you an incendiry question here, something that 310 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: could be explosive. There's a really big push in publishing 311 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: at the moment to increase diversity and to reduce the 312 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: number of male characters and to reduce the number of 313 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: just male protagonism is at the very core of what 314 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: has been writing for such a very long time. Is 315 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: that a good or bad thing? Especially when we're looking 316 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: at the issue that boys are struggling to get into books. 317 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: Do they need more not less of their own representation? 318 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: I think this is a problem that you identified that 319 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: certainly was being identified when I first started writing about 320 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: twenty years ago, and we kind of swung in that 321 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: direction of really putting so many strong boy characters in books. 322 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: And apparently the rumor goes that the reason why JK. 323 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: Rowling didn't call herself by her full name and used 324 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: to her initials, and so boys wouldn't see that it 325 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: was a girl who'd written the book. And so I 326 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: think we also need to break down stereotypes of what 327 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: we think boys are and what they're attracted to. And 328 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: so I also, once I'd written the Billy B. Brown 329 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: series about a strong female character, I wanted to create 330 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: a series for sensitive boys. I know my three boys 331 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: as they were growing up were very sensitive and have 332 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: big feelings that they didn't know how to express. So 333 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 2: all of the stories that I wrote about Jack were 334 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: about him expressing his feelings and his emotions and recognizing 335 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: that these aren't girly things to do that these are 336 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: actually important life skills that you'll need when, like you say, 337 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: when you're meeting partners, I'm sure they'd be so much 338 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: more impressed that you can have emotional intelligence rather than 339 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: the books you read. I mean, obviously books are really 340 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 2: really important that so often how we gain emotional intelligence. 341 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: But rather than belittling the materials that we give our boys, 342 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: you know, there's this some that they'll only want to 343 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: read action books, or that they'll only want to read comedy. 344 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: These are important things, but I know with my little 345 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: boys often, rather than talking about their emotions, they'd make 346 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: a joke to laugh it off. And I think let's 347 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: really not undermine how we want our boys to express 348 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: themselves and help them to talk about their emotions, and 349 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: books are a great way to do this. Let them 350 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: see their dads read and their dads ask them questions 351 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: about how did that story make you feel? Not just 352 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: what happened in that book. 353 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: Sally, as we're at this, if there was a take 354 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: home message, if there was one thing that you want 355 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: parents to walk away from the podcast and say, Okay, 356 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: this is what I need to do today, this is 357 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: what the focus needs to be this week. What do 358 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: you want people to really carry home from this conversation. 359 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: I think the number one thing is to if your 360 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 2: child is very young, then to really look at how 361 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: they may just need that extra intervention if they're not 362 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: hitting those milestones getting quickly, if they've missed that gap, 363 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: then make sure that they can still access great stories. 364 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 2: Let them see you reading, put on audio books in 365 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: the car, and make sure reading and books and storytelling 366 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: is a joyous activity. 367 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: Sally Rippon, the eighth Australian Children's Laureate and the author 368 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: of a bunch of books that I have on my 369 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: bookshelf because my kids loved the Billy B. Brown series 370 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: ten million books. Can I ask you a quick personal question, 371 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: how does it feel to know that you've sold more 372 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: books than any other female author in this country? On 373 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: that this might be just must be amazing. 374 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 2: It's such a thrill justin But I think it's more 375 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 2: the fact that when I go into shopping centers to 376 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 2: do book signings or school's kids know my work, and 377 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 2: sometimes this can even happen with older kids. I remember 378 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 2: doing a book signing in a shopping center and a 379 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: group of teenage girls walk past and they saw me 380 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 2: signings of billy books for some little girls and they 381 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: called it. 382 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: Oh, I remember those books. 383 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: I used to read them when I was little. And 384 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 2: I think if I can be at the start of 385 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 2: a child's reading journey, like you're explaining your daughter had 386 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 2: to go through this journey to read more sophisticated books, 387 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 2: I think that is a true honor that if I 388 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: can turn kids onto reading, then that that's the biggest 389 00:18:59,040 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: thrill of all. 390 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: Thank so much for the conversation, Sally Cleasure, good to 391 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: meet you. The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin 392 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: Rowland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. 393 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: For more information about making your family happy, a visit 394 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 1: happyfamilies dot com dot au and if you'd like to 395 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: know more about Sally, we will link to a bunch 396 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: of her books and series in the show notes and 397 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: give you some more information about the Australian Children's Laureate.