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Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so

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Speaker 1: much out of their day.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba.

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Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day.

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Speaker 2: Today's show is a best of.

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Speaker 1: Show because I'm taking a few weeks off How I

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Speaker 1: Work to recharge over summer, and so I've been going

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Speaker 1: through the last two and a half years of doing

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Speaker 1: How I.

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Speaker 2: Work and picking out some of my.

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Speaker 1: Favorite episodes to share. So on Today's show is one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite interviews that I've done over the last

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Speaker 1: couple of years, and that is with Cal Newport. Cal

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Speaker 1: is a computer science professor at Georgetown University. He is

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Speaker 1: the author of six books, including most recently the New

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Speaker 1: York Times bestseller Digital Minimalism, Choosing a focused Life in

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Speaker 1: a Noisy World. Cal's work has been published in over

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Speaker 1: twenty languages and has been featured in The New York Times,

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Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal, The New York Of, the Washington Post,

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Speaker 1: and The Economist. And his book Deep Work Deeply Impacted

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Speaker 1: How I Have chosen to change the way I work

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Speaker 1: over the last three years.

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Speaker 2: So look, it was probably.

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Speaker 1: An understatement to say I was excited for this chat

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Speaker 1: when I did it because I am a complete and

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Speaker 1: utter fangirl of Cals and his work has just had

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Speaker 1: such an enormous impact on how I work, and we

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Speaker 1: cover a bunch of different aspects of the way Cal

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Speaker 1: now approaches his.

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Speaker 2: Work in this interview.

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Speaker 1: Before I throw to Cal, just a shout out to

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Speaker 1: everyone that's been leaving reviews for how I work in

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Speaker 1: Apple podcasts and other places. It's so deeply appreciated. I'm

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Speaker 1: so grateful for everyone that has done that. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're enjoying how I work and maybe haven't had

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Speaker 1: the time to leave a review or think that it

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Speaker 1: will go unnoticed, trust me, it won't. I'm so, so

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Speaker 1: so grateful and it's a great way of helping other

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Speaker 1: pe will find the show. So on that note, let's

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Speaker 1: head to Cal to hear about how he works. Cal,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: It's my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: I want to start.

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Speaker 1: By talking about deep work because I've heard you talk

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Speaker 1: about the benefits of creating a deep work ritual, and

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Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could describe what your deep

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Speaker 1: work riteal currently looks like in your own life.

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Speaker 3: Well, so I differentiate between the types of deep work,

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Speaker 3: which is actually an innovation that came after my original

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Speaker 3: book came out. This is sort of an evolution of

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Speaker 3: some of the ideas from the book because I realized

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Speaker 3: there's different types of deep activities that benefit from different

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Speaker 3: types of rituals. So, for example, when I'm writing, I

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Speaker 3: have a ritual built around writing that's quite specific. I

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Speaker 3: actually have in my house. I had a custom library

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Speaker 3: table built that was reminiscent of the tables at the

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Speaker 3: university library where I used to work as an undergraduate,

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Speaker 3: with sort of brass library lamps next to the dark

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Speaker 3: wood bookcases. And I have a ritual for writing where

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Speaker 3: I clear off that whole desk and I just have

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Speaker 3: those bright lights shining right down on the custom desk.

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Speaker 3: It's just me and my computer. But that's very different,

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Speaker 3: for example, than when I'm trying to solve a theoretical

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Speaker 3: computer science proof, where the rituals I use almost always

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Speaker 3: involve various walking routes around my town. And so I

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Speaker 3: really differentiate now what the ritual is the best match

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Speaker 3: the character of the cognitive effort.

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Speaker 2: That's that's fascinating. How and I love the sound.

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Speaker 1: Of this custom made library table as well.

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Speaker 2: That's really cool.

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Speaker 1: How How did you like how did your deep work

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Speaker 1: routine evolve to that? In terms of getting to the

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Speaker 1: insight that you need different rituals for different types of

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Speaker 1: deep work.

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Speaker 3: I think what was bothering me at some point is

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Speaker 3: that I realized that the rituals I had built were

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Speaker 3: centered on only one type of deep work, and then

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Speaker 3: when I was getting to other types, I was feeling

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Speaker 3: either I wasn't really counting it as deep work, or

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Speaker 3: I was feeling frustrated. And so my memory was I

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Speaker 3: really had my deep work rituals built around solving proofs

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Speaker 3: because that was at the core of my job as

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Speaker 3: a professor, and so a lot of what I needed

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Speaker 3: to do, for example, for writing, like reading hard things

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Speaker 3: or taking notes or actually sitting down and writing chapters

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Speaker 3: wasn't being captured by the same rituals I would use

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Speaker 3: to solve proofs. And I was just getting really frustrated

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Speaker 3: and I would say, Wow, you know, I didn't do

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Speaker 3: any deep work this week, And I said, wait a second,

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Speaker 3: actually I did.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: I just was too narrow in my definition, and so

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Speaker 3: I think it was just reacting to that frustration in

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Speaker 3: my own life that I realized, oh, I have to

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Speaker 3: be more broad when thinking about what deep work means. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And how do you know if you're actually doing

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Speaker 1: deep work, like if the activity that you are working

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Speaker 1: on constitutes deep work? Like I've heard you have conversations

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Speaker 1: I think on other podcasts where you discuss the difference

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Speaker 1: between being in flow versus doing deep work, which has

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Speaker 1: had Is that something you're able to elaborate on.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's an important distinction. I think the right way

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Speaker 3: to think about it is under the category of different

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Speaker 3: types of deep work. Some of what's under that category

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Speaker 3: might induce a flow state, some of it might not,

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Speaker 3: so they're not the same thing, but they're also not

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Speaker 3: completely different. So the type of deep work that creates

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Speaker 3: a flow state tends to be where you're applying a

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Speaker 3: well honed skill to something cognically demanding. But you really

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Speaker 3: might get into a flow of you know, I'm writing

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Speaker 3: and I'm in a flow, or I'm sort of making

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking through a proof and I'm starting to make

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Speaker 3: progress on it. I just feel completely engaged. But another

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Speaker 3: type of important deep work is when you're trying to

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Speaker 3: learn something new or improve a skill, which requires a

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Speaker 3: deliberate practice where you're stretching yourself paste you're comfortable because

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Speaker 3: you're constraining really hardless stay to try to learn a

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Speaker 3: new idea that you've never known before, to learn a

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Speaker 3: new tool. That is by definition actually kind of the

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Speaker 3: opposite of a flow state, when you're in a state

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Speaker 3: of deliberate practice. The Anders ericson, who really helped innovate

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Speaker 3: the research and deliberate practice, is very clear that it's unpleasant.

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Speaker 3: You don't lose track of time when you're trying to

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Speaker 3: learn something new. You actually are quite aware of every

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Speaker 3: minute because it's hard. But that's also deep work, and

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Speaker 3: so it's just a broad umbrella. Some deep work you

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Speaker 3: feel great, you lose track of time. Some you're white

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Speaker 3: knuckling it because it's really hard. But the fulfillment you're

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Speaker 3: going to get is afterwards, when you're knowing that you

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Speaker 3: did something, you did something difficult.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask when I read deep Work a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago, I remember being struck by the

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Speaker 1: insight that I had somehow let shallow work take over

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Speaker 1: my life. And I simply tried to fit in bits

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Speaker 1: of deep work in amongst it. I'm sure I'm not

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Speaker 1: alone in reaching that insight, and I've since completely transformed

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Speaker 1: the way I work and get so much more out

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Speaker 1: of my days. And I want to know for you,

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Speaker 1: have you always been a naturally deep worker or was

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Speaker 1: this something you had to build or create into the

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Speaker 1: way you work.

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Speaker 3: I had always been a natural deep worker, in part

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Speaker 3: because of the field in which I worked, and so

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Speaker 3: training as a theoretical computer scientist, my world was a

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Speaker 3: world in which concentration was just openly considered to be

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Speaker 3: the most important skill. This is what you were judged on,

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Speaker 3: this is what you were rewarded for. No one could

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Speaker 3: care less about busyness. Busyness was actually probably a sign

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Speaker 3: that you weren't a very good theoretician. People had pride

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Speaker 3: in the number of hours they could spend staring at

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Speaker 3: a whiteboard, and so in this sort of esoteric field

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Speaker 3: I was in, deep work was at the core of it,

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Speaker 3: and so I really understood it. The insight that really

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Speaker 3: surprised me, however, is when I discovered that deep work

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Speaker 3: is just as important in almost every other knowledge field

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Speaker 3: as well, and So for me, the process of coming

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Speaker 3: to write that book Deep Work Work was sparked by

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Speaker 3: the process of saying, Okay, well, for me, concentration is

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Speaker 3: really important, but what's important in other fields? And keep

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Speaker 3: coming up with the same answer, the sort of discovery

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Speaker 3: that this thing that I thought was pretty narrow that

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Speaker 3: applied to only a small number of rarefied jobs, turned

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Speaker 3: out to be core to almost everything in the knowledge economy.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about the idea that's interesting for you that

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Speaker 1: you have always been a deep worker, and I would

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Speaker 1: imagine that a lot of people that have read Deep

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Speaker 1: Work probably we're probably stuck in a similar work routine

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Speaker 1: to where I was, where the majority of my day

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Speaker 1: was shallow work, even though I am a knowledge worker.

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Speaker 2: What have you seen to be the most effective.

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Speaker 1: Ways for people to break the shallow work cabit.

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Speaker 3: Well, the first step is just a vocabulary. So if

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Speaker 3: you don't differentiate between what is deep work and what

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Speaker 3: is shallow work, it's very very easy to just get

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Speaker 3: into a world of busyness. Right. If you don't differentiate

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Speaker 3: between these two activities, then the only metric you have

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Speaker 3: is am I working harder? Am I not? And this

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Speaker 3: is the trap that a lot of people fell into

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Speaker 3: in the last ten or fifteen year in this age

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Speaker 3: of sort of very low friction communication and internet accessibility,

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Speaker 3: is that it just work is work, and either you're

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Speaker 3: working a lot or not. It was very easy to

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Speaker 3: be very busy and think that that was good. But

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Speaker 3: once you have the terminology of deep work and shallow

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Speaker 3: work and realize that in most jobs, at most levels,

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Speaker 3: deep work is what moves the needle right. Deep work

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Speaker 3: is what gets you promoted. Deep work is what gets

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Speaker 3: you more revenue as a company. Deep work is what

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Speaker 3: actually produces value in the knowledge context, and shallow work

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Speaker 3: just supports them. Once you make that distinction, then suddenly

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Speaker 3: you become incredibly uncomfortable if you notice that you're doing

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Speaker 3: almost no deep work, because in knowledge work, the main

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Speaker 3: manufacturing process is mine's concentrating to produce information with more value.

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Speaker 3: If you are not doing that, there's something probably problematic.

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Speaker 3: You're not producing value. You just talked about producing value,

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Speaker 3: doing logistics about producing value. You're planning about producing value.

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Speaker 3: So step one is getting the vocabulary right. Once you

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Speaker 3: have the vocabulary right, people get a hunger for well,

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Speaker 3: I want to do the deep work and so something

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Speaker 3: as simple as just well, let me keep track of

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Speaker 3: how much I'm doing can be incredibly powerful because if

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Speaker 3: deep work is the main activity that actually creates new

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Speaker 3: value in almost any position, at almost any level, and

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Speaker 3: you see that you're doing two hours of a week,

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Speaker 3: then suddenly, instead of thinking, Wow, aren't I great, I'm

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Speaker 3: really hustling, you look at this and say, what in

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Speaker 3: the world is going on? This is sort of a

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Speaker 3: degenerate setup I've ended up in. I'm spending almost no

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Speaker 3: time actually trying to produce things that are valuable and

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Speaker 3: that can give you the big spark you need to

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Speaker 3: make big changes because it's not easy. It's not easy

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Speaker 3: to push back against the cold the business. So you

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Speaker 3: need something like that to really help break you up.

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Speaker 1: Have you found that just that inside alone is enough

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Speaker 1: to spark behavior change.

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Speaker 3: Well, it sparks the hunger I've then at that point

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Speaker 3: it's helpful. It's helpful to have some meals to serve

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Speaker 3: to associate that hunger. And let me mention two things

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Speaker 3: real quick that in the aftermath of deep work coming out,

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Speaker 3: readers have reported to be very important for you know,

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Speaker 3: are at least very useful in practice for satiating a

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Speaker 3: new hunger for deep work. One is scheduling deep work

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Speaker 3: in advance on your calendar, treating it and protecting it

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Speaker 3: like any other meeting or appointment. So once it's on there,

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Speaker 3: that time is taken up you have to plan around it.

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Speaker 3: If someone tries to schedule something during that time, you say,

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Speaker 3: already have a thing. People are used to the social conventions,

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Speaker 3: run meetings, and appointments. If someone tries to get in

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Speaker 3: touch with you during one of these blocks and they're

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Speaker 3: upset because hey, why don't you get back to me,

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Speaker 3: you can say, well, I had a thing from twelve

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Speaker 3: to two, like you really do. Treat it like you're

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Speaker 3: going to the dentist or in a meeting right where

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Speaker 3: you can't be reached. That's really helpful. So then in

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Speaker 3: advance people can start putting this time and locking it

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Speaker 3: in and then forcing themselves to work around the anchor

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Speaker 3: time to try to fit in the other shallow work.

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Speaker 3: That's useful. The other thing that's useful I've been hearing

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Speaker 3: from readers is having a conversation with your supervisor, or

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Speaker 3: if you work for yourself, sort of have this conversation

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Speaker 3: with yourself where you say this is what deep work is.

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Speaker 3: This is what shallow work is. Both are important for

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Speaker 3: the organization. What's the ratio I should be shooting for

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Speaker 3: in a typical forty hour work week? How many of

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Speaker 3: those hours should be deep work for shallow work? And

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Speaker 3: the answer will be different for different jobs, right, But

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Speaker 3: you get an answer, and then you work backwards and say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: what changes might we have to make so that we

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Speaker 3: can accomplish this goal that we decided together was going

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Speaker 3: to optimize the value I produce for the company. So

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Speaker 3: it's a way of approaching deep work with the people

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Speaker 3: you work with that is positive, saying how can we

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Speaker 3: use this idea and agree on how to do it

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Speaker 3: together to make more value, as opposed to what most

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Speaker 3: people do, which is negative, which is stop bothering me,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to answer an email. Stop scheduling me

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Speaker 3: in meetings, right, which just tends to make people defensive.

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Speaker 3: So those two things scheduling deep work like meetings and appointments,

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Speaker 3: and two agreeing on a deep to shallow work ratio

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Speaker 3: are things I've been hearing from readers to be really

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Speaker 3: effective for getting more of this into your life.

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Speaker 2: That's great. I love that question. To ask your boss.

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Speaker 1: And I must say I personally have had great success

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Speaker 1: with just blocking out deep work in the diary. Generally,

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Speaker 1: almost every morning in my diary just has a do

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Speaker 1: not book sign over it, which I've personally found very

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Speaker 1: effective and funnily enough, the thing that I found hardest

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Speaker 1: to apply from deep work was you write a bit

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Speaker 1: about having a ritual to end your day and shut

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Speaker 1: down your work day, and I've never been able to

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Speaker 1: make that stick. But I'm wondering if you could describe

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Speaker 1: how your workday ends, because I've found that quite fascinating

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure if it's changed since writing the book.

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Speaker 3: No, it's more or less still the same. So the

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Speaker 3: idea of a work shutdown ritual is that when you're

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Speaker 3: done with work, you want to go through the potential

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Speaker 3: open loops, right, So make sure that anything that is

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Speaker 3: on your mind but not actually in a system where

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Speaker 3: it's going to be dealt with and scheduled, gets into

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Speaker 3: a system where it's going to be dealt with scheduled.

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Speaker 3: Get everything out of your mind. I used to, depending

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Speaker 3: on what's going on in the week, I'll often at

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Speaker 3: this point check my calendar, check my task, check my plan.

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Speaker 3: Make sure that Okay, I'm on track. I've got a

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Speaker 3: plan for the week. I know what I'm doing. I'm

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Speaker 3: on track to get things done. I'm not missing anything.

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Speaker 3: So that there's no open loops, no concern. Make your

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Speaker 3: last look at the inbox. There's nothing lurking there that's

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Speaker 3: an emergency, right, and then you shut it down. So

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Speaker 3: you and I recommend having at first a phrase. You

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Speaker 3: say whatever you want it to be. The idea being

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Speaker 3: that once you've done the shutdown and you've said whatever

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Speaker 3: the phrase is, if later in the evening your mind

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Speaker 3: starts to bother you right and say, you know, like

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Speaker 3: maybe we're missing something. Maybe we should go back and

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Speaker 3: think some more about this, you can say, you know

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Speaker 3: what I said the phrase. I wouldn't have said the

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Speaker 3: phrase if I hadn't checked on everything and made sure

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Speaker 3: that I trusted our plan. So there must be a plan.

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Speaker 3: I trust. I don't have to think about it anymore.

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Speaker 3: And what people experience is when they do this shutdown routine,

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Speaker 3: and that kind of pushback on the ruminations. After a

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Speaker 3: couple of weeks that urge to ruminate and think about

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Speaker 3: work after work is over starts to really diminish which

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Speaker 3: allow to have a much more sort of present and

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Speaker 3: relaxed evening.

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Speaker 2: It's so true, It's so true. It's funny.

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Speaker 1: In my own life, I just I can't seem to

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Speaker 1: crack that. I always am struggling to resist the temptation

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Speaker 1: to hop back onto my computer after my daughter's in bed.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask, like, did becoming a parent,

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Speaker 1: which obviously happened for you quite a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: did that change the way that you approach your work

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Speaker 1: in particularly deep work habits.

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Speaker 3: Well, in some sense, my deep work habits made it

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Speaker 3: easier to make the transition to being a parent because

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Speaker 3: the way I used to work, you know, I trained

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Speaker 3: myself that I have work hours, and I want to

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Speaker 3: get the most of those work hours, and I'm going

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Speaker 3: to structure the day. It's going to be intense, depth,

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Speaker 3: really organized, shallow, have a shutdown when it comes time

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Speaker 3: to be the shutdown period. For whatever reason that that

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Speaker 3: was really appealing to me. I used to plan as

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Speaker 3: a grad student. I'd planned my day around my wife's

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Speaker 3: work schedule, so I was like, I want to use

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Speaker 3: every minute that she's at work to get as much done.

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Speaker 3: But then I don't want to be one of the

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Speaker 3: grad students who sort of was lazy during the day

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Speaker 3: and then has to be on campus all night. I

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Speaker 3: want to be home with her and doing other sort

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Speaker 3: of things. So I have this tight schedule. When I'm working,

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Speaker 3: work really hard. When I'm done, be done. So then

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Speaker 3: once we had kids, that kind of worked really well.

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Speaker 3: So I was like, Okay, when I'm at the office,

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Speaker 3: I'll work really hard. But then I was already used

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Speaker 3: to the idea that when I'm done, I can shut

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Speaker 3: down completely. And now shutting down completely wasn't just well,

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Speaker 3: it's just kind of relaxing when I'm home doing what

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Speaker 3: I want to do. Of course, now it's kind of,

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Speaker 3: you know, it keeps things off my mind when I'm

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Speaker 3: home running around doing childcare. But it fits really well.

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Speaker 3: And so this notion if I want to work deeply,

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Speaker 3: really intensely, keep the shallow work incredibly organized and contained,

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Speaker 3: and when I'm done, when I'm done, incredibly compatible with

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Speaker 3: being a parent.

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Speaker 1: It all sounds very logical. Work when you work and

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Speaker 1: don't work when you're not at work. Something I want

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Speaker 1: to shift on to, which you write about in digital minimalism,

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Speaker 1: is the value of solitude and bottom, I guess which

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Speaker 1: you know? Again, like when I was reflecting, when I

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Speaker 1: was reading the book and reflecting on my own life,

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Speaker 1: it's quite scary to think about how infrequently I was

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Speaker 1: feeling bored and how infrequently I would imagine a lot

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Speaker 1: of people experience boredom because there's just constant inputs, and I'm.

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Speaker 2: Curious to know how.

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Speaker 1: And you write a bit about this in the book.

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Speaker 1: How do you experience solitude and boredom? How do you

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Speaker 1: create those states in your own world?

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Speaker 3: Well, so, just to provide a little bit of background,

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Speaker 3: some context on the shift from Deep Work to digital

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Speaker 3: minimalism before getting to the specific question. Basically, Deep Work

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Speaker 3: was this book that was about focus in the workplace

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Speaker 3: and how technologies had unintentionally made that more difficult. And

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Speaker 3: so one of the big reactions I got the Deep

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Speaker 3: Work was, Okay, maybe this is true, Like what you're

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Speaker 3: saying about tech and what it's doing in the workplace, Well,

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Speaker 3: what about tech in our life outside of work? Because

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Speaker 3: people in the last couple of years particular, were really

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Speaker 3: beginning to feel that their life outside of work was

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Speaker 3: being taken over by screens in a way that was

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Speaker 3: making them uneasy. Right, And it wasn't that, Okay, I

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Speaker 3: hate what I'm doing when I look at the screen.

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Speaker 3: It was the fact that they were looking at the

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Speaker 3: screen so much. It was almost like they were losing

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Speaker 3: their autonomy, that their whole life was getting eaten up

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Speaker 3: by just glance after glance after glance at the screens

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Speaker 3: was making them anxious, making them unhappy. I was keeping

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Speaker 3: away from friends and family, and so digital minimalism was about, Okay,

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Speaker 3: what's going on with this unease in our personal relationship

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Speaker 3: with tech, so outside of work, outside of things like

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Speaker 3: email and slack, and what can we do about it?

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Speaker 3: And so getting back to your question. So that's one

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Speaker 3: of the ideas I talked about in digital minimalism is

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Speaker 3: that when you kill every moment that you could potentially

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Speaker 3: be alone with your thoughts by looking at a screen.

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Speaker 3: So every time you're in line, every time you're waiting

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Speaker 3: for the subway, when you know someone gets up at

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Speaker 3: dinner and goes to your bathroom and you're waiting for

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Speaker 3: them to come back. If at every single moment like

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Speaker 3: that you look at a screen, what you do is

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Speaker 3: you put yourself into a state calls solitude deprivation, where

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Speaker 3: you're never alone with your own thoughts. And we know

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Speaker 3: that this is actually really unhealthy and it's probably going

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Speaker 3: to make you anxious. It's also probably going to retard

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Speaker 3: your ability to have sort of self development or professional

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Speaker 3: insights or breakthroughs. We really do need regular time spent

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Speaker 3: alone with our thoughts, which is why I recommend that

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Speaker 3: you get that in your life. And so what's the

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Speaker 3: easiest way to do that is my suggestion is most days,

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Speaker 3: do at least one or two things without your phone.

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Speaker 3: And that simple thing I go on one errand and

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Speaker 3: I do whatever one thing around the house each day

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Speaker 3: where there's no earbuds and no phone. Something as simple

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Speaker 3: as that can have a major impact on your cognitive health,

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Speaker 3: anxiety levels, and happiness.

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Speaker 1: What does that look like in your life in terms

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Speaker 1: of incorporating, you know, moments of solitude and space to

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Speaker 1: be bored.

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Speaker 3: Well, I reject this idea, which is actually quite recent,

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Speaker 3: that you need to have a phone with you all

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Speaker 3: the time. You know, this notion that the phone's always there,

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Speaker 3: you're always looking at it. We're used to it, but

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Speaker 3: it's quite arbitrary, it's quite contrived, and it's quite recent,

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Speaker 3: And so I spend large parts of my day without

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Speaker 3: a phone handy, so I do locks exercise. When I'm

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Speaker 3: at home, I typically my phone will be in my

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Speaker 3: bag somewhere, So I don't accept this premise that I'm

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Speaker 3: like in an emergency room doctor that needs to be

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Speaker 3: accessible at all times on a communication device. And so

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Speaker 3: once you change your mindset to one where it's I

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Speaker 3: use my phone to do various things, but it's not

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Speaker 3: something I always have with me, you just naturally get

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Speaker 3: lots of solitude. So throughout my day there's just lots

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Speaker 3: of times with just me alone with my thoughts because

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Speaker 3: I don't have easy distraction nearby. And so something as

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Speaker 3: simple as that, I think if the phone as a

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Speaker 3: tool you occasionally use, not a constant companion, can really

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Speaker 3: make a big difference in terms of getting more solitude.

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Speaker 1: It's such an interesting idea leaving your phone at home

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Speaker 1: or in the glove books. And I must say, like

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Speaker 1: during the month of match my husband and I, but

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Speaker 1: it's right digital minimalism before the month started, and we

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Speaker 1: use that month as digital declutter month, And something that

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Speaker 1: we both consume a lot of is podcasts. And I

437
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: really became aware of this habit where in any moment

438
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 1: where I could have been experiencing solitude, Like I generally

439
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: spend the hours of six to seven am either walking

440
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: or at the gym or exercising or moving in some way.

441
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 1: Podcasts and my AirPods would be glued in my ears.

442
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: But one of the changes I made in the last

443
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 1: month is actually going, well, what if I just spent

444
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: that hour in silence and it just made things completely different.

445
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: I found that some of my best ideas were coming

446
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: to me at that point where I was previously just

447
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 1: consuming stimulus.

448
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 2: How do you delineate.

449
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: Between these moments where there's no input going in other

450
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 1: than your own thoughts versus feeling like it's okay to

451
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: have some stimulus going in, Like I'm not sure if

452
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: you're a podcast list or I know that you're a

453
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: big reader, But how do you kind of delineate that time?

454
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean it's a good question, because I do

455
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 3: like podcasts. I am a big reader. I try to

456
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 3: get rid of the idea that it's a default activity.

457
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 3: It's something I guess I think of as I look

458
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 3: forward to our schedule, right, So instead of being a

459
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 3: default activity, I guess I'm more active about putting aside

460
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 3: when am I going to get input? What input is

461
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 3: it going to be? So if I know, for example,

462
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 3: I have a lot of yard work to do, you know,

463
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,479
Speaker 3: maybe I'll say, great, I'm going to listen to this

464
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,880
Speaker 3: particular podcast and it's gonna be good. On the other hand,

465
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 3: I say, oh, I have a walk coming up, and say,

466
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 3: you know, I'm walking my kid to school and I'm

467
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 3: going to walk home alone. I usually won't listen to

468
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 3: a podcast. Then I've just become used to. I really

469
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,199
Speaker 3: like that solitude. And so it's not that there's a

470
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 3: hard and fast rule, but I plan when I'm going

471
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 3: to do stimuli, and you know, I have to think

472
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 3: about it right and say do I want to listen

473
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 3: to something or not? Do I want the silence or

474
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 3: is there something I think this might be a good

475
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 3: chance to listen to something. Same thing with my commutes

476
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 3: when I come to campus. Probably about half the time

477
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 3: I think, the other half the time I listen. And

478
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 3: you know, I don't have a precise heuristic that says

479
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 3: this is when I do this and this is when

480
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 3: I do the other. But I just keep in mind

481
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 3: that both are possibilities and that it's worth thinking about

482
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 3: in any given moment, which one I want to do.

483
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's nice being delivered about it.

484
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 1: I feel like for so many people it's just a

485
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: habit to put in earphones and just start listening when

486
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 1: there's no other stimulus that could be coming their way.

487
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: And on the topic of habits, I think this was

488
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: a blog maybe that you wrote a few months ago

489
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: around habits versus workflows, which I found really interesting because

490
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,959
Speaker 1: I think in the productivity space there's such an emphasis

491
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: on different hacks and quick fixes, whereas you write about

492
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: the importance of actually reviewing your workflow, and I was

493
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: wondering if you could like expand a bit on what

494
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: you meant by that concept and maybe gives some examples

495
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: of what are the different workflows that you have in

496
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 1: your own working life.

497
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 3: I think this is a key distinction and to understand

498
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: some of the issues we have in workplace productivity and

499
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 3: how we might eventually solve them. So to me, a

500
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 3: habit is something you put in place for how you

501
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 3: interact with your work. So maybe when you check your email,

502
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 3: or your methods you use for organizing your email, or

503
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: maybe your personal planning like how you plan out your

504
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 3: day or keep track of what you need to get done,

505
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 3: whereas workflow is the underlying either explicit or implicit system

506
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 3: that specifies how work gets done, so how obligations are assigned,

507
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 3: executed and tracked. A lot of times we think about habits,

508
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 3: but it's actually the underlying workflow that's causing the problem.

509
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 3: So the key place, I think, the key example where

510
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 3: this distinction comes up is when it comes to email overload.

511
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 3: So to me, the big problem with email is this

512
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 3: underlying workflow that says the way that we work in

513
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 3: our organization is that we maintain this sort of ad hoc,

514
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 3: ongoing unstructure conversation using email inboxes, and it's very flexible,

515
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 3: it's very convenient if we all just kind of keep hey,

516
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 3: you get that what's going on over here, and that

517
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 3: this is how we're going to work. Is how we're

518
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 3: going to pass tasks off to each other, how we're

519
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: going to follow up on things. It's how we're going

520
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 3: to communicate with people. It's just we're going to have

521
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 3: this ongoing, unstructured conversation. Now, you can have a lot

522
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 3: of habits on top of that workflow to try to tainment,

523
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 3: So maybe you don't check email all the time. And

524
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 3: maybe you have some nice folder system for organizing emails

525
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 3: moving to a to do list, But until you change

526
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: that underlying workflow, there's nothing just going to solve the

527
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 3: need in such an environment to check email a lot,

528
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: spend a lot of time doing email. And so, like

529
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 3: when I'm out there talking about the problem of email overload,

530
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 3: people really want to just focus on the habits. They think, well,

531
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 3: we could just change some norms about how often we

532
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 3: check email, or you know, batch it, or let people

533
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 3: know that we're not going to respond right away, that

534
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 3: we can we can solve all the problems we're having.

535
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 3: But often the underline issue is that there's this workflow

536
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 3: that depends on ongoing email communication you get anything done,

537
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 3: and so if you want really systemic change, you have

538
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 3: to replace that with something better. And so I think

539
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 3: organizations have to think about this, and I think individuals

540
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 3: can think about this in their own life as well.

541
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 3: To what extent are you rearranging the deck chairs on

542
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 3: the sinking Titanic when you're building more complicated systems for

543
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 3: an underlying workflow that's just inevitably going to keep you

544
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 3: overwhelmed or not doing what's important And so I like

545
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: that distinction. There's the underlying decisions about how tasks and

546
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 3: obligations are identified as sign tracked, and executed, and then

547
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 3: there's what you do on top of that to help

548
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 3: sort of interact with those workflows. And those are two

549
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 3: different things.

550
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: And what are some workflows that are true for your

551
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,479
Speaker 1: own working life.

552
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting question because often when I'm talking

553
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 3: about workflows and habits, it's relevant primarily at the level

554
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 3: of organizations, right, And so this is the difference between

555
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: two software development teams, one that just people are on

556
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: slack all day and the other where they use an

557
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: agile methodology like scrum. It's really explicit about here's who's

558
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 3: working on what. We put it on this board, we

559
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 3: can see its status. We have synchronous meetings. We do

560
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 3: them twice a day. This is how you know, we

561
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 3: assign things. They have a really structured workflow. Because of

562
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 3: that structured workflow, they don't need to be on slack

563
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 3: all day. But without that structured workflow, they need to

564
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: be on slack because how else are tasked going to

565
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 3: get passed around or things checked on? In terms of

566
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 3: like in your individual life, I mean, one way to

567
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 3: think about it, I suppose is in terms of processes

568
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 3: or systems that you use for identifying tasks and making

569
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 3: sure they get done or assigning them. And so sometimes

570
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 3: these can be pretty subtle, but a concrete example is

571
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: like on my book tour which I'm on now for

572
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 3: digital minimalism, there's a lot of bookings that have to happen,

573
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 3: and so I thought about the underlying workflow of well,

574
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: what's the what's the right way to actually sort of

575
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: get things identified and scheduled and information to me? And

576
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 3: we built a system with the publicity team where I

577
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: could identify time when I'm available. They then had access

578
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 3: to those parts of my calendar. They could then book

579
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: things directly on the calendar with all the information I

580
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 3: need I could if I book something else, that time

581
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 3: would get blocked off. And we rebuilt the workflow that

582
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 3: minimized back and forth communication required to accomplish the goal

583
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 3: of getting the proper things like this interview scheduled, for example.

584
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: And so that might be an example of working on

585
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 3: the underlying workflow as opposed to just the upper level

586
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 3: habits of like how often do I check my emails

587
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 3: about when things are being scheduled?

588
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 1: And do you have I guess on top of your workflows,

589
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: what are some of the most useful habits or productivity

590
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: systems or weekly rituals that you do to keep your

591
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: weak organized and flowing.

592
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: Well.

593
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: Well, I'm a big believer in both weekly and daily planning.

594
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 3: I think you need to spend time to understand the

595
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 3: contours of your week. What's happening on each day, what

596
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: day is really crowded, what days have open space, so

597
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 3: that you can start moving things around at that scale

598
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: and recognize, hey, Monday is pretty open, that's probably gonna

599
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 3: be a good time to make a lot of progress

600
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 3: on this hard thing, even though that hard thing's not

601
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 3: due till Friday. But you're seeing on the calendar that

602
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 3: Wednesday and Thursday have a lot of meetings, right, And

603
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: so looking at the whole week and trying to plan

604
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: out what's going to happen when I think that's important.

605
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: Believer in time blocking on a particular day. Give your

606
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: time a job. Here's the hours I have available. What

607
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: am I doing with this hour? What am I doing

608
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 3: with this thirty minutes? What am I doing with this

609
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 3: three hour block? Give your time a job, as opposed

610
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 3: to just approaching your day with a generic to do list,

611
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,479
Speaker 3: You're much more effective at getting things out of your

612
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: day if again, you look at the free hours of

613
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: the day and reconfigure them, move them around, and figure

614
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 3: out how can I get the most out of this?

615
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 3: And then I often am a believer in ad hoc

616
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 3: systems and rituals that match what's going on at the time.

617
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 3: And so if you have, let's say, a big event

618
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: coming up, do you have to do a lot of

619
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 3: planning for you might just say here's I'm doing. It's

620
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: thirty minutes after launch every single day, thirty minutes every

621
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: single day just checking in, moving things, seeing what's going

622
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: on or whatever. Right, But this idea of having temporary

623
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: systems that you put into place to help you make

624
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 3: a lot of progress on important, non permanent things in

625
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 3: a way that doesn't have you just completely an ad

626
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 3: hoc looking at a tasklic type mode. So if you

627
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: do weekly planning, daily time blocking, build temporary systems and

628
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: rituals as needed for temporary but large obligations, that usually

629
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 3: combines to help you get a pretty effective use of

630
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 3: the time available.

631
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: And can I ask with time blocking because it's something

632
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: I've experimented with myself, and I feel like the cognitive

633
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: biases that either cause you to overestimate or underestimate how

634
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: long something takes, I've found can be my downfall with

635
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: time blocking. Where let's just say I've completely overestimated how

636
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: long something will take, but I've set aside three hours.

637
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: I finished it in an hour and a half, and

638
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: then like, what, like, how does that work.

639
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 2: In your world?

640
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: Right?

641
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I should say at the bigger point

642
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 3: is that one of the nice things about time blocking

643
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: is that it's practiced to make you better at estimating

644
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 3: how long things take because there is some pain to

645
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: when you get it wrong. It requires some extra effort,

646
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 3: and so you have to try to get it right,

647
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: and you get a lot of feedback. So you see,

648
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 3: consistently not giving myself enough time for this type of activity,

649
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 3: you get that feedback or I'm always giving myself too

650
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 3: much time, So that gets better. But then what do

651
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 3: you do in the moment? Well, if you don't give

652
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: yourself enough time, then you know if you keep going

653
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: till you finish what needs to get done, and then

654
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: you just adjust your schedule for the rest of the day,

655
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: which is fine. And one of the ways that people

656
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 3: get time blocking wrong is they think that it's a

657
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 3: game where you win the gold medal if you never

658
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 3: have to change your schedule. But there's actually no prize

659
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: you get for getting your schedule exactly right and never

660
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 3: having to change it. You probably might have to change

661
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 3: it three, four or five times. The goal is not

662
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 3: to have a perfect schedule. It's to always have some

663
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 3: intention about what you're doing with the time that remains

664
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 3: of the day. Same thing if you underschedule, so you

665
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: have a couple options here. You could add something new,

666
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 3: or you could take advantage of that time just to relax,

667
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 3: or to do something that's going to dogative rest like

668
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: that's actually kind of a nice scenario. But the point

669
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 3: I always make about time blocking is that, regardless of

670
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 3: what you do, having a good understanding of how long

671
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 3: things take is crucial because if you don't, regardless you're

672
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: time blocking or not, you're just going to keep getting

673
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 3: yourself in the trouble and you're going to keep having

674
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 3: colliding deadlines, You're going to keep having late nights, you're

675
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 3: going to keep having these sort of stressful moments when

676
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: you realize, ah, a lot still needs to get done

677
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 3: and I'm not there, And time blocking trains you to

678
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 3: better appreciate how long things take and then otherwise just

679
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 3: be comfortable with the fact that you might have to

680
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 3: change your schedule several times throughout the day and that

681
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 3: that's not negative, that's actually how the system works.

682
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like the idea of actually taking a break.

683
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: And I've heard you talk about the concept of deep breaks,

684
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: because I feel like people don't really think that much

685
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: about what constitutes a break, what they do in a break,

686
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: how long a break goes for. So can you describe

687
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: this concept of deep breaks and what they involve.

688
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 3: So, if you're doing a deep work and you're taking

689
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 3: a break and you're going to return the deep work,

690
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,239
Speaker 3: you should be careful about the break. And so you

691
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: want to avoid, for example, in a break, exposing yourself

692
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 3: to other but similar type of work, because now you're

693
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 3: going to contact shift and so you want to be

694
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: really careful. If you're writing an article, you don't want

695
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 3: to during a break maybe read or think about a

696
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 3: related article. It's just too close and now you're kind

697
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: of context shifting to that other article and it's going

698
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 3: to be hard to come back. You also want to

699
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: avoid open loops, exposing yourself the loops that you can't

700
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 3: close during the break. And so this is what's dangerous

701
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: about looking at email. For example, in a fifteen minute break,

702
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: you're going to see a lot of things that you

703
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: can't get to, a lot of emails you can't quite answer.

704
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 3: Open loops really eat at our attention and reduce our

705
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 3: cognitive capacity going forward. So a deep break, you want

706
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 3: to void looking at similar type of work or open loops.

707
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 3: And so you can look at stuff, for example, that's

708
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 3: completely unrelated to work. You know, you can read an

709
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 3: article about your local sports team is probably not gonna

710
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 3: be a big deal. You can go for a walk,

711
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: you can read a book, a chapter from a book,

712
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 3: or a magazine article that's completely unrelated to your work.

713
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 3: These type of things are fine. You can talk to

714
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 3: people you know, non work related conversations. All that's fine.

715
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: Those would be deep breaks, But you don't want to

716
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 3: do something similar. You don't want to expose yourself to

717
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 3: open loops.

718
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: I find that really helpful because I feel like email

719
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: is the thing that often fills spare time because it

720
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 1: can take as long or as little as you want.

721
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 1: And how what does email look like in your life,

722
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: like how how frequently do you check it?

723
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: How long do you spend in there?

724
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: What would like your I guess your email system look

725
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 1: like in a typical way.

726
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 3: Well, there's two elements to it. So one is controlling

727
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: what comes in. And so if you look at, for example,

728
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: my author website and you go to the contact page,

729
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 3: I don't give people a general purpose email address. I

730
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 3: don't just say hey, i'd love to hear from you.

731
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: Here's my email address. Instead, there's very specific addresses for

732
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: very particular purposes, and then I give expectations around them,

733
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 3: like okay, if you're interested in speaking, well, you can

734
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 3: you can talk to my speaking age. And thus the

735
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: address publicity, here's like a publicist you can talk to.

736
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 3: If you want to send me links or articles which

737
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 3: I really like, you can send them to this address.

738
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: But I don't answer. A look at it, but I

739
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: don't answer, and I don't give an option, for example,

740
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 3: for and if you just have like questions for me,

741
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 3: or want to talk to me or ask me to

742
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: get involved in a business or whatever, there's just no

743
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 3: option for that. Now you would worry that that might

744
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 3: make readers upset because you're sort of cutting off accessibility,

745
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 3: but I found that didn't happen. People are okay with clarity.

746
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 3: They don't really need accessibility as long as it's clear.

747
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 3: So if they know for a fact, like, okay, there's

748
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 3: no way for me to really reach you about this,

749
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: and they're okay with it, that's better than them just

750
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 3: having a generic email address and sending their business pitch

751
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 3: to you with some expect that you might answer, and

752
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 3: then being upset that you don't. And so I try

753
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: to cut down on what comes in or expectations on reply.

754
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 3: And then in terms of dealing with the email that

755
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 3: I do get, you know, I schedule when I look

756
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 3: at it, and how often that is just depends on

757
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 3: what's going on, and so it's not maybe I go

758
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 3: a day or so without having to without being able

759
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 3: to look at it, and over time people get mad

760
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 3: at me a lot. But people have learned that I

761
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 3: don't use email like an ongoing, constant communication or chat service.

762
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 3: It's just not something you can use to grab my

763
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: attention real quickly, even if it's really convenient for you.

764
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 3: That's just not the way I use email. It might

765
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 3: be a day or two till I see it, and

766
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: so I always tell my students that when we begin class,

767
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: my colleagues have learned it, my family has sort of

768
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: learned about it, and people adjust. And so for me,

769
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,439
Speaker 3: some days I don't look at it, other days I do,

770
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 3: and when I do, I try to take care of

771
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 3: it in basically one session.

772
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: I do like the idea of just being clear and

773
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: setting expectations, and ironically that will lead to less disappointment.

774
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:58,479
Speaker 2: I want to come back.

775
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: To emails toward the end of about chat in a

776
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: few minutes, but first I did want to ask you

777
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: something that my company, Inventium is working on at the

778
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: moment with the University of New South Wales, is actually

779
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: looking at strategies like introducing deep work into an organization

780
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: along with other different strategies for working better and trying

781
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: to assess the impact on productivity and other variables. And

782
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: so I guess a couple of questions there, because I've

783
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: heard you talk about it's actually quite hard to land

784
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: on a definition of productivity, like if an organization introduces

785
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: a workflow that is more around prioritizing deep work when

786
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: we're talking about knowledge workers over shallow work, like how

787
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 1: do we actually measure the impact of that on productivity,

788
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: and then what are the other variables that we would

789
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: expect it to change, like you know, ranging from job

790
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: satisfaction to health and well being and stress levels. But

791
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: I guess, in the context of this study, how would

792
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: you be measuring productivity when it comes to the impact

793
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: that deep work would have.

794
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 3: So I would go back to the economic metric of

795
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 3: productivity actual value produced per hour that you're paying salary,

796
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: which I sometimes call true productivity in the book because

797
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 3: what we've done in knowledge work because knowledge work is

798
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 3: a little bit more ambiguous we don't have widgets to

799
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: count coming off of an assembly line, is that we

800
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 3: began to use busyness as a proxy for productivity. So

801
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 3: are you there early in the morning, are you around

802
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 3: a lot? Are you answering emails very quickly? Just in general,

803
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 3: if you're doing something, at least we know you're not

804
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 3: being lazy or taking advantage. And that's the sort of

805
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 3: metric we put into place. But what really matters is

806
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 3: is the activity producing concrete value for the organization, such

807
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 3: as dollars coming in in a for profit organization. And

808
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 3: it's there that I think that we're finding that we

809
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 3: should be a little bit concerned. Like if you look

810
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 3: at the US, for example, our labor department tracks this

811
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 3: productivity right, revenue per sort of employment hour, and they

812
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 3: break it out for the non industrial sector, so particularly

813
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 3: for they call it non industrial productivity metrics, so not

814
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 3: counting manufacturing, but mainly just knowledge work. That metric has

815
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 3: been stagnant for a long time. I mean throughout this

816
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 3: last decade period where we invested billions to make communication

817
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 3: as fast and flexible and easy as possible. It's never

818
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 3: been easier for you to get information or to contact

819
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 3: someone and get a quick response ever before in the

820
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 3: history of work. It doesn't show up at all in

821
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 3: the economic metrics, and I think that's something they should

822
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 3: have us really worried, right, And I think in large

823
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 3: part of it is because it turns out that all

824
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 3: this communication information gathering has an impact on our brains functioning.

825
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 3: It makes it hard for the brain to do the

826
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 3: actual job of thinking and producing value. And so if

827
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 3: I was measuring productivity, you know, from a study perspective,

828
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 3: I want to know about how much dollars are we

829
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 3: paying in salary, what are we getting back in terms

830
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 3: of revenue coming in, Like sort of these these baseline numbers.

831
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 3: And just as an aside, there's this really interesting study

832
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 3: from the nine We're an economist from Georgia Tech was

833
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: watching personal computers enter the desk like the workforce, like

834
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 3: the front office workforce in fortune five hundred companies in

835
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,959
Speaker 3: the US. Right, So what happened when you got these

836
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 3: productivity enhancing computers on everyone's desk? And he measured the

837
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 3: numbers very carefully in the way I'm talking about. His

838
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 3: name was Peter G. Sassone, and what he found. I

839
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 3: think this is really interesting is that the organization said, hey, look,

840
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 3: this is great. These computers make certain things that we

841
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: used to have dedicated support staff do, like typing and

842
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 3: sending letters or whatever. Right, it makes some of these

843
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: things easy enough that we no longer have to hire

844
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: dedicated people just to do these administrative tasks. Is the

845
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 3: higher level they called the managers in this study, but

846
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: sort of the higher trained employees can now do it themselves.

847
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,959
Speaker 3: And so we're going to save all this money by

848
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 3: firing all the typists, and we don't need everyone to

849
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 3: have secretaries anymore because you can send emails and do

850
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 3: word processing. What ended up happening, however, is that that

851
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 3: he calls us the diminishment of intellectual specialization. Now you

852
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: take the people who were actually producing the things to

853
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: brought value into the organizations, and all this administrative work

854
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 3: fell onto their plate. It then took more of those

855
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 3: people to produce the same amount of work, but their

856
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 3: salaries are much higher than the support staff that they fired.

857
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 3: And what with sasone crunched all the numbers, he figured

858
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 3: out that you were actually about twenty percent less effective

859
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: in the sense that you could cut your payroll by

860
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 3: twenty percent to produce the same amount of work by

861
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 3: bringing back support staff and allowing people just to focus

862
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 3: at the higher level on just their work, and you

863
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 3: wouldn't need as many of these expensive high level employees.

864
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 3: That's the type of study I think we need to

865
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 3: have in mind who are thinking about productivity when you

866
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: get to the dollars and cents bottom line, I think

867
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: a lot of what we're doing with this constant communication,

868
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 3: hyper convenient business is having a huge economic impact. So

869
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 3: that's a long answer to a short question, but it's

870
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 3: something that I feel really strongly about, and I'm glad

871
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: that the University of South Wales is thinking about some

872
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 3: studies along these lines.

873
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: That is absolutely fascinating what you described.

874
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: I'm also curious, like, what are the variables outside of

875
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: productivity would you expect, like actually dedicating more time to

876
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: deep work to have Like, for example, in my own life,

877
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: I just get so much more fulfillment from my work

878
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: because I'm creating more meaningful output into the world. So

879
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: I'm curious what other variables you would expect a deep

880
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: work routine to impact.

881
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 3: Well. You should expect more psychological satisfaction and more satisfaction

882
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 3: with work, especially if you pair increased focus on deep

883
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 3: work with decreased communication responsibilities. So it's true that deep

884
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 3: work itself is very fulfilling. We like the focus on

885
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 3: one thing and produce something valuable that's very fulfilling, and

886
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 3: so that makes us happier. The flip side of that

887
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 3: is also really negative. So if you're constantly trying to

888
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 3: deal with tons of communication, each of which is someone

889
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 3: who needs something from you, and you can't keep up

890
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 3: with it because you have hundreds of messages and it's

891
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 3: always piling up and you're always behind. That collides with

892
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 3: the sort of ancient paleolithic social wiring in our brain

893
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 3: in a very unnatural way. That makes us very unhappy

894
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: and very stressed and very anxious. It's really just in

895
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: the way that eating junk food hits our paleolithic you know,

896
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 3: food processing system in a bad way. It makes us

897
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 3: really overweight. Our body isn't meant for it. Our paleolithic

898
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 3: social brain is not meant for an inbox that's always

899
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 3: failing and we can't keep up with because it doesn't

900
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: know the difference between that email is not that important

901
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 3: and what it was evolved for, which is, if someone

902
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 3: around the tribal fire is trying to get your attention,

903
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 3: you better listen to them because there's a lot at

904
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 3: stake if you snub them, right, I mean, social dynamics

905
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: is something we're incredibly cue to, and things like email

906
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 3: completely mess around with these finely tuned social dynamics, which

907
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 3: is why we just feel compulsively like we have to

908
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 3: check it. We feel if a text message comes in

909
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: and we're driving, we still check it, even though I

910
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 3: put in our kids' lives in danger, because to us,

911
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 3: it's the same as like if someone's tapping your shoulder

912
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: at the tribal fire and you ignore them, like you

913
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 3: might get a spear in the back, right like, we

914
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 3: take that really, really seriously. And so the more time

915
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 3: you spend trying to keep up with never ending communication,

916
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 3: the more unhappy you get. The more time you spend

917
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 3: focusing deeply to try to produce valuable things, the happier

918
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: we get. So if you can increase the ladder and

919
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 3: decrease the former, people are going to have a much

920
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 3: more healthy relationship with their work. Your employees are going

921
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 3: to be much more protected against burnout, and the positions

922
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 3: are going to be much more sustainable.

923
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great, And look in the kind of just

924
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: about out of time, but just in maybe one or

925
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: two minutes, I would just love to I guess you know,

926
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 1: that's a nice segue into the topic of your next book,

927
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: which I believe is about email free organizations.

928
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 2: Is that correct?

929
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, the new book, which should say very much in

930
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 3: the early stages, but as of now it's vely titled

931
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 3: A World Without Email. It gets into a lot of

932
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: these ideas. I mean, I basically argue that we don't

933
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 3: have a good theory right now about how to get

934
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 3: a lot of value sustainably out of human brains, and

935
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 3: the way we're working is a really terrible way to work.

936
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: And we've told ourselves this story that there's no other

937
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 3: way to work in a modern world than to just

938
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 3: send messages all the time. I can make the case

939
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 3: so that's actually quite arbitrary, and that there's this growing

940
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 3: movement of organizations who are much more careful about thinking.

941
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 3: We have these brains, we want these brains to produce value.

942
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 3: We don't want these brains to burn out. We're getting

943
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 3: incredibly innovative in answering the question of what's the right

944
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 3: way to work in a digital world.

945
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: I cannot wait to read that.

946
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 1: And my final final question, if people want to consume

947
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: more of your work, you're thinking, you're writing cal what's

948
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: the best way for people to do that?

949
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 3: So, from a book perspective, if you're interested in sort

950
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 3: of technology and work and the problems, Deep Work is

951
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 3: a good book. If you're interested in the impact of

952
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 3: technology in your personal life, you're looking at your phone

953
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 3: too much, you feel uneasy, feel like a loss of autonomy.

954
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 3: Digital minimalism is good for you. Online. I don't use

955
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 3: social media. I'm not easy to reach, but I do

956
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 3: have a blog at calneport dot com that I've been

957
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 3: blogging at for over a decade. And so that's a

958
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: pretty quick way to sort of dive in and see

959
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 3: in more detail some of my ideas.

960
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 1: Awesome, Cal, it has been an absolute joy talking to you.

961
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time.

962
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 3: Oh it's my pleasure. Thank you.

963
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: That is it for today's show.

964
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this chat with Cal and know someone

965
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: else that you think would also find it interesting or useful,

966
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 1: why not share the episode with them. All you need

967
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: to do is click on the little icon that's like

968
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: a little box with an arrow pointing out of it.

969
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: That is what the share icon looks like mostly, and

970
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: to share it with them, and hopefully whoever you share it,

971
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: we will enjoy it too. So that is good for

972
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: today's show, and I will see you next time.