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Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today on the pod,

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Speaker 1: it's a doctor's desk episode. A brand new research report

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Speaker 1: published just in the last few months asks can growth

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Speaker 1: mindset interventions improve academic achievement. It's a structured review of

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Speaker 1: the existing evidence. Big study, important study, really really useful

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Speaker 1: if you want your kids to do well. You know

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Speaker 1: that whole idea of a growth mindset, like if you

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Speaker 1: think you can, you can. If you think you can't,

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Speaker 1: you can't. You're probably right either way, that is increasingly

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Speaker 1: under scrutiny. It seems that the research evidence suggests that

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Speaker 1: the growth mindset data is not living up to the promise,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to unpack why that is. Next on

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, It's The Happy Family's podcast, Real

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Speaker 1: Parenting Solutions every Day, Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, where

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Speaker 1: Justin and Kylie Coulson. Every Thursday on the pod, we

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Speaker 1: dissect recent research. We have a look at what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the world of academia as it applies to

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Speaker 1: you as a parent. Today, a conversation about growth mindsets

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Speaker 1: and fixed mindsets. It seems that the science is far

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Speaker 1: from settled, so I'm going to assume that most people

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Speaker 1: have heard of a growth mindset.

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Speaker 2: It's been around for a really long time. But can

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Speaker 2: you dissect it a little bit? Can you help us

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Speaker 2: to understand what it actually is and why it became

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Speaker 2: so popular in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So, in two thousand and six, Carol Dwek, a

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Speaker 1: Stanford University psychologist with a resume that would make just

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Speaker 1: about any researcher on the planet jealous, published a best

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Speaker 1: selling popular book, it was not an academic book, called Mindset.

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Speaker 1: And the idea is really really simple, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's why it's caught on so well. If you've got

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Speaker 1: a fixed mindset, you believe that your intelligence is a

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Speaker 1: fixed quantity. You can't increase it. You're either smart or

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Speaker 1: you're dub or you're somewhere in between, maybe your average

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Speaker 1: or a bit above average, but that's kind of where

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Speaker 1: you are. If you have a fixed mindset, Therefore, you

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Speaker 1: try to do stuff, well, you don't try it. You

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Speaker 1: do stuff that you know you can do, and you

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Speaker 1: avoid stuff that you know that you can't because you're

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Speaker 1: not very smart, or you're not very this, or you're

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Speaker 1: not very that. And we have fixed mindsets about all

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Speaker 1: kinds of things. Maybe it's our physical ability, our capacity

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Speaker 1: to make friends. Some people say, oh, I'm an English person,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not a maths person. Right, So that fixed

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Speaker 1: mindset idea is I either can or I can't. There's

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Speaker 1: no in between. My brain doesn't work that way. Oh,

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Speaker 1: the cross country is coming up. We're going to leave

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Speaker 1: that to your friends to do the cross country. We're

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Speaker 1: not runners in our family where readers. It's that kind

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Speaker 1: of idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But then you've got people who know that they're

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Speaker 2: not good at something and they're not actually interested in improving,

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Speaker 2: but they're willing to give it a go.

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Speaker 1: Right, So where does that feed? We normally call that

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Speaker 1: a You normally call that a growth mindset. So a

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Speaker 1: growth mindset is no matter how intelligent you are, you

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Speaker 1: can continually improve your intelligence. You can build your intelligence,

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Speaker 1: you can become smarter. Your brain is like a muscle.

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Speaker 1: So if you go to the gym and you lift muscles,

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Speaker 1: your muscles get bigger and stronger, and your brain works

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Speaker 1: the same way. Fixed mindset says, no, you've either got

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Speaker 1: muscles or you don't. Growth mindset it.

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Speaker 2: Says you've either got brains or you don't.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, growth mindset says you might not have them now,

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Speaker 1: but you can learn the stuff and then you will

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Speaker 1: have them. So the idea behind growth mindset is really optimistic.

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Speaker 1: It's this concept that just because you can't write now

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean you never will. The most important word in

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Speaker 1: growth mindset research is yet, I can't do it yet.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So you're telling me that it's not true? Is

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Speaker 2: that what you're about to tell me that?

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Speaker 1: That's not what I'm telling you. Okay, all right, But

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Speaker 1: a brand new research paper has thrown some pretty cold

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Speaker 1: water on what has been a red hot topic for

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Speaker 1: the last twenty years. So there's no hope, that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: So what I'm saying, okay, all right, Well you've read

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Speaker 2: this new comprehensive review.

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Speaker 1: It is comprehensive.

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Speaker 2: What does it actually share with us? What did you

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Speaker 2: find out?

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Speaker 1: Okay? So first off, let's just get the details right.

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Speaker 1: This was a paper that was published by Carolina Gazmuri

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Speaker 1: from Durham University in the UK. It was published in

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Speaker 1: the Review of Education late in twenty twenty five, and

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Speaker 1: this is a really comprehensive review. She's gone through a

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Speaker 1: very very rigorous search, screening and evaluation process. Looking at

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Speaker 1: the evidence from growth mindset interventions, she found twenty four studies.

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Speaker 1: All of them were randomized control trials, which is the

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Speaker 1: gold standard that we're looking for focused on growth mindset

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Speaker 1: of intelligent interventions for school aged children, and those RCTs,

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Speaker 1: those randomized control trials had to include output measures for

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Speaker 1: academic performance. And here's the headline, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: bury the lead. Their findings showed that the strongest studies,

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Speaker 1: the ones with the largest sample sizes, the ones with

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Speaker 1: the least missing data, the ones with the highest data quality,

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Speaker 1: showed either null or very small effect sizes. Those effect

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Speaker 1: sizes ranged from a Cohen's d of negative point zero

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Speaker 1: one to positive point zero six'. Five there were some

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Speaker 1: concerns around conflict of interest Biased there were some negative

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Speaker 1: and null results that might still be. Unpublished there were

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Speaker 1: four evaluations with a high degree of trustworthiness and no

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Speaker 1: conflict of interest In among, those two studies showed no

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Speaker 1: discernible impact of growth mindset interventions and another two showed

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Speaker 1: a very small. Impact that's the science speak of what

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Speaker 1: the research report.

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Speaker 2: Showed, okay So i've got two responses to. That the

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Speaker 2: first one IS i THINK i. CAN i THINK i.

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Speaker 2: Can IF i THINK i, CAN i, try, right. Yes

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Speaker 2: SO i don't understand how there was such little variance

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Speaker 2: in the, outcomes because IF i don't, like IF i

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Speaker 2: don't BELIEVE i, can classic, EXAMPLE i really struggled with,

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Speaker 2: maths AND i still. Do it's not a strong point of.

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Speaker 2: Mine AND i actually had a teacher in grade ten

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Speaker 2: who just looked us all in the eye and he,

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Speaker 2: said it doesn't matter who you, are where you've come.

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Speaker 2: From if you want to do well at, mass he,

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Speaker 2: said you can get AN a in my co, YEP

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Speaker 2: i still got A c minus or what.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, Right and then there's that, argument, well if

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Speaker 1: you if you just did the, work then you would

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Speaker 1: have got the Eighty and some people are, like, No

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Speaker 1: i'm doing the. Work it's it's not working for.

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Speaker 2: Me, Yeah so that's my first. Response So i'm really

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Speaker 2: struggling with the fact that there was such little. Variants

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Speaker 2: but you kind of mentioned this Whole COHEN'S d of

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Speaker 2: zero point zero six.' five what does that actually mean

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Speaker 2: in the? Real, world like what are you?

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Speaker 1: Talking about very very, science speaking So BASICALLY. COHEN'S d

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Speaker 1: a Guy Called jacob cohen invented this Thing called cohen's

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Speaker 1: d and it theoretically ranges from negative infinity to. Positive

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Speaker 1: infinity but, in practice in educational research and in, psychological

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Speaker 1: research you typically see values from minus one to. Plus

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Speaker 1: one so and most of those values will fall between

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Speaker 1: point five and negative. Point five i'm going to keep

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Speaker 1: you awake here with just one. MORE thing a small

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Speaker 1: effect size is, point two a medium effect is, point

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Speaker 1: five a large effect is. Point, eight right so if

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Speaker 1: you're getting a CO and cd of, point two you're

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Speaker 1: going to, be, like, OH yeah i guess this is making,

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Speaker 1: some difference but it's not really a. Big deal the

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Speaker 1: growth mindset Review that i've just talked about was from

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Speaker 1: point zero one to point zero. Six' five to put,

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Speaker 1: that in perspective point zero six' five is about One

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Speaker 1: third of what coen set is, A small effect size

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Speaker 1: so this is a third of small negative point zero one,

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Speaker 1: means there's no, effect there's no impact there's. No nothing

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Speaker 1: at all.

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Speaker 2: So, researchers obviously recognized this and yet they published it

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Speaker 2: and have taken the world by storm by it in

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Speaker 2: spite of the fact that there's actually zero. RESEARCH to,

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Speaker 2: support them i mean. Is, this not controversial.

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Speaker 1: Yeah IT is Controversial and i mean i've got a

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Speaker 1: conflict of, interest HERE as well because i TRAVEL the

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Speaker 1: country and i give talks on this very topic and

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Speaker 1: teach teachers aut, how GROWTH mindset works and i teach

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Speaker 1: them about everything that they don't know that they don't

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Speaker 1: know about growth mindset because everyone thinks they know, a

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Speaker 1: lot about it. But they actually don't and so it's

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Speaker 1: really tricky to stand up in front of a bunch

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Speaker 1: of teachers and talk about this when. The Research is

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Speaker 1: questionable now i've got. Some theories about it we'll talk about.

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Speaker 1: That in a sec but that's. That's the main thing

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Speaker 1: the other point that you raised is? But what ABOUT

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Speaker 1: yet WHAT about? I think i can what about the?

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Speaker 1: Little engine that could i'm a, huge believer in it

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Speaker 1: whether or not the Science is picking up and this.

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Speaker 1: Is the critical thing is the science sensitive enough? To

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Speaker 1: pick up movement are we? Using the right measures are

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Speaker 1: we doing? THIS the right way i Just know that

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Speaker 1: when i've got somebody who's STANDING beside me saying, I

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Speaker 1: think you can, I think You can or if I'M

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Speaker 1: saying TO myself, I think I can, I think i

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Speaker 1: can i usually go. Further, And do more Yeah i'm.

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Speaker 2: Thinking if i'm On the bike and i'm On my

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Speaker 2: own and i'm going up some stink and, hill AND

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Speaker 2: it's hard and I literally feel like i'm. About to

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Speaker 2: fall OFF the only way i get OVER that hill

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Speaker 2: is i literally scream, at, myself and say kyl. You

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Speaker 2: can do this. I've done this before. Get over THE hill,

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Speaker 2: but if i DON'T then it's Literally i. Honestly think

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Speaker 2: i'd fall like.

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Speaker 1: The belief that, if you do stuff if, you keep on.

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Speaker 1: Trying you'll get better that's got, to, count for something,

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Speaker 1: right it has TO and so therefore i think that

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Speaker 1: there but how? Do they measure that, so after the

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Speaker 1: break let's talk a bit more about this study and

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Speaker 1: what it really means if you're a teacher or if

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Speaker 1: you're a parent and you want your kids to have

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Speaker 1: a growth mindset for this evidences calling. It all into

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Speaker 1: question stay With us Where Back it's The happy families

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Speaker 1: Podcast today a doctor's desk episode about whether or not

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Speaker 1: the research evidence is, going, to be useful supportive or

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Speaker 1: worth doing. Anything about it all when it comes to

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Speaker 1: this growth mindset stuff that everybody seems to love but

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to work when you look at the data.

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Speaker 2: We've already shared that you go into. Schools and teach

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Speaker 2: this so this is a really tricky. And problem quite

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Speaker 2: controversial but, because mindset is everywhere especially, In our education

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Speaker 2: systems so what should schools do differently. Based on this.

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Speaker 1: RESEARCH here's the way i see it the mindset concept

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Speaker 1: when you run it as a whole school, intervention and

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Speaker 1: you say we are going to sit down and explicitly,

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Speaker 1: teach kids this stuff and then we're going to have

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Speaker 1: a control group that. Doesn't get taught it we're going

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Speaker 1: to have a look at what. Happens with the grades

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Speaker 1: there could be any number of things that. Are going

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Speaker 1: on here school in and of itself, is a controlling

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Speaker 1: environment and what happens in school classrooms in terms of the. Way,

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Speaker 1: feedback is given like one of the critical things in

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Speaker 1: this area is the, way, We Give praise right carol

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Speaker 1: tweck makes a, big deal about saying make, sure it's process.

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Speaker 1: Praise not person praise focus on the, effort they're putting

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Speaker 1: in not. The outcome they're providing but if you look at,

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Speaker 1: the broader praise research it says. DON'T praise at all

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Speaker 1: i mean it's really really clear that praise is not

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Speaker 1: a helpful thing when it comes to. Children and They're

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Speaker 1: achieved So what i'm WHAT i'm thinking when i look

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Speaker 1: at this is they're doing these randomized CONTROLLED trials in

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Speaker 1: the UK and in the. Us and they're not and

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Speaker 1: this is not the first research paper, to call into

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Speaker 1: question but, the school context matters and the socioeconomic variables,

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Speaker 1: in the school matter and the achievement standards. Of the

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Speaker 1: students matter there are, so many variables.

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Speaker 2: Here, IT'S so complicated well i think you've, in your

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Speaker 2: family dynamics.

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Speaker 1: Like the messages that. You're, Getting at HOME yeah so.

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Speaker 2: If i go back to that, mass scenario for ME

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Speaker 2: my teacher believed I, could GET an a BUT i never.

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Speaker 1: Believed i could precisely and so no matter how, MANY

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Speaker 1: times somebody says, I believe in you you've got the capacity.

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Speaker 1: You can do this if you're sitting, there going yeah,

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Speaker 1: right you're just saying, ex you're the testion you get,

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Speaker 1: paid to do it then you're not going to change

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Speaker 1: your mindset teaching. SOMEBODY the, mindset concepts i mean we

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Speaker 1: do this in Our living room every, sunday with our

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Speaker 1: kids whether it's mindset or and any number of the

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Speaker 1: other things we try to teach, our children, about motivation

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Speaker 1: well being, living a, great life, being kind being helpful all.

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Speaker 1: That sort of stuff doesn't mean that they believe. It

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Speaker 1: or do it it takes of offer. It to sink

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Speaker 1: in so you asked the question? What should schools do this.

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Speaker 1: Is the critical thing no study has shown that there's any.

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Speaker 1: DETRIMENTAL effects to take i was, about, to say that

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Speaker 1: so like if you look, at screens in schools there's

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of studies that show that there are

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Speaker 1: detrimental impacts from relying, Too heavily on technology but there

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Speaker 1: are no studies, that are really, showing oh my goodness

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Speaker 1: this is making. A huge positive difference, with the mindset

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Speaker 1: research there are no studies showing. That there are negatives

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Speaker 1: there are some studies showing positives and some saying it's.

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Speaker 1: NOT really doing anything i would rather take my chances

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Speaker 1: with something that has pretty much no. Downside but potentially

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Speaker 1: UPSIDE and that's how. I look at this if you're,

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Speaker 1: in a school environment, if you're, a, parent, you're going oh.

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Speaker 1: So what's the point what's. This whole conversation about it's

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Speaker 1: as follows there's no downside to. Teach in growth mindset there's.

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Speaker 1: No downside, AT all the research i have never found a,

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Speaker 1: single paper that said not only, does this not. Work

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Speaker 1: but it's harmful. I've Never found that all i've ever found, are,

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Speaker 1: papers that say well the upside might not be as

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Speaker 1: up as everyone. Says that it is it looks like

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Speaker 1: there might be a neutral effect at. Best in some

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Speaker 1: cases but it certainly. Doesn't drop, below, NEUTRAL so, therefore yeah,

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Speaker 1: i mean, long answer long answer but.

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Speaker 2: Don't stop doing it so if the, evidence was so

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Speaker 2: weak why do you think that growth? Mindset became so popular.

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Speaker 1: Because it's so catchy it's so easy to. Get your head,

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Speaker 1: around it's. That simple REALLY totally because if, i say

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Speaker 1: to you if you believe that, you can do it

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Speaker 1: you're going to try harder than if you don't believe.

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Speaker 1: You can do it that's a really easy concept to

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Speaker 1: catch people understand the. IDEA of PERSISTENCE resilience i think

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Speaker 1: i can the. Little engine that could this is taking

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Speaker 1: something that's old and putting a, form so it's familiar

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Speaker 1: but putting a fresh spin on it and putting. Some

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Speaker 1: science around it it's caught on. Because people instinctively understand it's.

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Speaker 2: Just it makes sense so some people are going to

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Speaker 2: hear this and they're, going to literally say but growth

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Speaker 2: mindset's made all the difference.

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Speaker 1: In my kids, Classroom that's my point like that. Is

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Speaker 1: literally my point the research evidence may not tell us

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Speaker 1: that there are going to be positive effects in all

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Speaker 1: these gold, standard randomized controlled trials but when you talk

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Speaker 1: to people, who are doing it PEOPLE like you and i,

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Speaker 1: with our own kids classroom teachers, all over, the COUNTRY

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Speaker 1: they'll say when i change THE language and when i

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Speaker 1: focus on helping kids to just give, it one more go.

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Speaker 1: They make more progress they have, More light bulb moments

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Speaker 1: they have GREATER success, than if i, SAY you know

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Speaker 1: what i don't think you were Really. CUT out for

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Speaker 1: english i don't think that you should. Do the cross country.

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Speaker 1: It's just not you you're not that kind of kid

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Speaker 1: that doesn't. Lead to positive outcomes so the.

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Speaker 2: Whole concept believing that you can, improve right through effort?

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Speaker 1: Is?

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Speaker 2: IT fundamentally wrong.

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Speaker 1: No i mean. How can it be look at everything

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Speaker 1: that we, do in our lives the reason that, we

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Speaker 1: learn a language the reason that we, start a health

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Speaker 1: program the reason, that we read books the reason that

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Speaker 1: we do all those things is because we know that

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Speaker 1: those things with intention can help.

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Speaker 2: Us to be better so is it the formal interventions

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Speaker 2: that Are, NOT working.

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Speaker 1: For yeah i think that there, are too many, variables

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Speaker 1: it's too complicated and therefore this is a really. Tricky

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Speaker 1: area to research i'm not actually the world's biggest believer

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Speaker 1: that this is going to change. THE world for everybody i.

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Speaker 1: Truly DON'T think that but i do believe that it

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Speaker 1: will change the. World for some kids HERE'S the way that, i,

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Speaker 1: look at it right fixed minds that says you either.

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Speaker 1: CAN or you can't i don't want to be the

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Speaker 1: adult that looks at one of, my kids and, Says

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Speaker 1: you know what you're just not. Cut out for. THIS

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Speaker 1: don't bother totally i.

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Speaker 2: Look AT the days when i go to the gym

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Speaker 2: with like. A defeated belief system those days, the, gym

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Speaker 2: is hard right DON'T even achieve what. I, achieved last

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Speaker 2: time RIGHT the days that I go in and I

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Speaker 2: feel palmed And i'm, READY and i'm energized i often,

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Speaker 2: will Do personal bests like i'll push myself IN a

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Speaker 2: way that i would never HAVE pushed myself if i

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Speaker 2: didn't believe.

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Speaker 1: THAT it was possible i want my kids to find

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Speaker 1: their limits and then to discover if. They can exceed

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Speaker 1: them that's really, what you're talking about and the growth

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Speaker 1: mindset concept. Is about doing that it's not up for

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Speaker 1: up to us as parents, or teachers to, say YOU

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Speaker 1: know what could i but you're. Just not very bright.

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Speaker 1: That's not our job our, job is to. Say YOU

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Speaker 1: know what what i really want to see you do

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Speaker 1: is give this a crack and see how. Far you

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Speaker 1: can go and then once you've gone as, far as

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Speaker 1: you can let's have a chat about it and see

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Speaker 1: what we, can do from there see what some extra

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Speaker 1: support can do to get, you to go further and

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Speaker 1: let the kids.

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Speaker 2: Find their own limits so what's your message to educators

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Speaker 2: who've invested a lot into this whole growth. Mindset in

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Speaker 2: their classrooms they might be feeling defensive or. Disappointed about

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Speaker 2: this research what would?

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Speaker 1: YOU say to them i guess it's just a summary,

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Speaker 1: of everything we've discussed and that is that the language

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Speaker 1: that we use will have an impact on the motivation and,

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Speaker 1: the effort that, many though not all. Students will put

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Speaker 1: in it's. The, same at home therefore it's like there

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Speaker 1: is no. Triumph without the trial. You can't do it

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Speaker 1: yet that which we persist in doing becomes easier, For

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Speaker 1: us to do not that the nature of the, thing

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Speaker 1: itself has changed but that our power. To do has increased,

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Speaker 1: those kinds of slogans quotes ideas they count resilience doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel resilient, when you're in it and as we foster

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Speaker 1: that attitude being, in the learning zone being uncomfortable and recognizing,

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Speaker 1: that because you're uncomfortable the longer, you can stay that

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Speaker 1: the more you'll learn and grow that will. Lead to

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Speaker 1: better outcomes this. Should not be disputed this should. Not

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Speaker 1: be in question it's just that some kids come from

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Speaker 1: backgrounds where, it's not showing up and some schools aren't

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Speaker 1: getting the. Results in the studies the RCTs aren't always

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Speaker 1: showing it doesn't. Mean it doesn't work it just means

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Speaker 1: right now that the. Evidence is needing refining so That's

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Speaker 1: It for our. Doctor's desk episode today i'll link to

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Speaker 1: it in the show notes for those who would like

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Speaker 1: to get into the nitty. Gritty of the research thanks.

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Speaker 1: So much for listening we're back tomorrow With More on.

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Speaker 1: The happy families podcast Which Is produced By Justin. Ruland

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00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,960
Speaker 1: from bridge medium imhammonds provides research and admin support and

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00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 1: for more info to make your family happier visitors at,

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Speaker 1: happy families dot com dot a y