1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Whether you're pitching to your close knit project team over zoom, 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: presenting as a keynote speaker to a packed conference hall, 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: or writing an entire book. Great stories are at the 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: heart of any effective communication, and no modern nonfiction author 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: spins a better yarn than Dan Pink, the man behind 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: bestsellers like Drive When and more recently, The Power of Regret. 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: The Psychology of Regret and its many incarnations might sound 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: like Danser reading, but Dan proves that doesn't have to be. 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: Some of the first person case studies in the Power 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: of Regret are as moving and thought provoking as any 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: great fiction tale, which makes the underlying science much much 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: easier to remember and understand. Dan really is a master storyteller, 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: But how does he know which stories are the best 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: ones to use to get his points across? My name 15 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: is doctor amanthe Immer. I'm an organizational psychologist and the 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: I work a show about how to help you do 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: your best work. On today's my Favorite Tip episode, will 19 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: you go back to an interview from the past and 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: I pick out my favorite tip from the interview. In 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: today's show, I speak with Dan Pink, and this extract 22 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: starts with me asking Dan where he finds all the 23 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: great stories that go into his books. 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: So for this book, The Power of Regret, I relied 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: on three legs of a research stool. The first leg 26 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: was looking at some existing science on this emotion of regret, 27 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: in particularly social psychology, developmental psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, to 28 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: try to say, what is science, existing science tell us 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: about this emotion. The second leg was something that I 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: called the American Regret Project, which was a piece of 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: quantitative research, numbers based research, where I did a very 32 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: large public opinion survey of the US population, the largest 33 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: survey of US attitudes about regret ever conducted, and tried 34 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: to find some insights there. And then the third and 35 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: this is going to get to your question, is I 36 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 2: also set up something called the World Regret Survey, which 37 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: was a giant collection tool where I invited people from 38 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: around the world to submit a regret and to my astonishment, 39 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 2: we got fifteen thousand, you know, very very quickly, and 40 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 2: we're now over nineteen thousand regrets from people in one 41 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 2: hundred and five one hundred and nine countries right now. 42 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: And on that what I did so. 43 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: First of all, on that one, I read through at 44 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: least the first fifteen thousand regrets and started separating out 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: the ones that I found super compelling. What's more is 46 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: that I gave people who filled out the survey the 47 00:02:59,040 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: option of. 48 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 3: Including their email. 49 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: It was anonymous, but they could include their email address 50 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: if they wanted to have a follow up interview, and 51 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: so and so I read through the regrets I found 52 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 2: I found certain ones that were compelling. If there are 53 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: ones that were compelling and the person was willing to 54 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: talk to me, I would reach out to them by 55 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: email and do interviews. So I did hundreds of interviews 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: to try to find the very best, most compelling stories. 57 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: And how do you know when a story is going 58 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: to be effective enough to get your point across? 59 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 2: It's a good question. I don't know if you know, 60 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: and I don't have a way to do that. I mean, 61 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: some of it is a some of it is a 62 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: gut some of it is a gut instinct. What I 63 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: tend to do is I tend to tell the story 64 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: to somebody else and see whether they lean in or their. 65 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 3: Eyes glazed over. That's to me sometimes a good test. 66 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: And also the other thing about it is is that 67 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: the stories you use. 68 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 3: Are not equally weighted. 69 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: That is, sometimes a story can be brilliant for three sentences, 70 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, and it doesn't deserve much 71 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: more of that. Sometimes the story needs three pages. And 72 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: so I think that knowing how much weight the story 73 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: deserves is really important as well. And one of the 74 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: things that I think that that less experienced writers do 75 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: is that they don't wait the stories properly. That is, 76 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 2: they think, well, I found out all this information about 77 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: this person, therefore I need to report it. And that's 78 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: often that's often a mistake, and knowing like, oh my gosh, 79 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: I've done three interviews with this person and it's taken 80 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 2: me three and a half hours of my life. 81 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 3: But you know what, I just need a sentence. You 82 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 3: got to be good. 83 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: With that, and that's really important. 84 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 3: The same thing is true with research. 85 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: You have to be able to explain the research thoroughly enough, 86 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 2: but in a way that serves the reader rather than 87 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 2: validates your decisions to do the research. So let me 88 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: be specific there. So there's in the book I wrote 89 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: about I looked at some of the research on when 90 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: children developed the capacity for regret so a lot of 91 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: developmental psychology, lots and lots of experiments of giving say, 92 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: five year old scenarios and then seven year old scenarios 93 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: and then nine year old scenarios and seeing whether they 94 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,679 Speaker 2: comprehend the idea of regret. 95 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: There I probably read. 96 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: I probably spent a month reading these papers and looking 97 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: at some textbooks and things. Probably ended up reading I 98 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: don't know, fifty to fifty five studies on this question. 99 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: And when I got to writing it, I realized I could. 100 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 3: Explain it all in like a paragraph. 101 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: Wow, that must take a lot of restraint. 102 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 3: It does, believe me, it does. But here's the thing. 103 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 3: Here's the way I look at it. 104 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: It's like the only thing worse than saying, oh crap, 105 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: I just took a month of work and only got 106 00:05:58,480 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: a paragraph out of it. 107 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 3: I don't like that. Believe me. 108 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: That's not a happy day in the Pink householder, in 109 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 2: the in Pinking World headquarters here, that. 110 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 3: Is not a happy day. 111 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 2: However, what is an even worse day is torturing readers. 112 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: Is giving readers something that they don't need that really 113 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: bugs That bugs me even more so. It's a question 114 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: of as as is often the case in life in general, 115 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: in my life in particular, which variety and intensity of 116 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: discontent do you prefer? 117 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: And how do you know that you are going to 118 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: be torturing readers? I guess that's the key question, like 119 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: how do you know that they don't want to hold 120 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: chapter around kids and regrets? 121 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,679 Speaker 2: I have a I that I think is easier because 122 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: if it bores me, you know, it's like, Okay, I 123 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: don't want to read this. I think I think that's 124 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: I mean, that's I think that's a lot. I think 125 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 2: that's a lot easier. And again, you know, what you 126 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: want to do, is you want to my I mean, 127 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: this is my own bias, but I think I've always 128 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: I think that most nonfiction books, and I've gotten in 129 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: trouble for saying this, but I think that most nonfiction 130 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: books are too long. I think that most books would 131 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 2: be many of many books would be twice as good 132 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: if they were half as long, because I think that 133 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: they the authors aren't concise enough, there's too much fluff 134 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: in them, and that many of these books probably don't 135 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: deserve to be full fledged books. And so I try 136 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: to be pretty relentless about what I put in there, 137 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: and and more important, what I leave out the high 138 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: I mean, my favorite compliment in this book was I 139 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: was in the UK two weeks ago and I did 140 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: an interview, a radio interview, and the producer said, you 141 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: know this book is this book is really good, like 142 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: there's no fluff, and I'm like, yeah, exactly, there's no fluff. 143 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: I love the hand's taste of telling people's stories he's 144 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: thinking of including in his books and seeing if they 145 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: lean in or if their eyes glaze over. It's something 146 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: that I've started to adopt myself for when I'm hunting 147 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: for stories to share in my keynotes and in my 148 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: writing as well, and I've found it infinitely useful. If 149 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way that 150 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: you work. I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains 151 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: three cool things that I've discovered that helped me work better, 152 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving through to 153 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: interesting research findings. You can sign up for that at 154 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: Howiwork dot com. That's how I Work dot co. How 155 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: I Work is produced by Inventium with production support from 156 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: Dead Set Studios, and thank you to Matt Nimba, who 157 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: does the audio mix for every episode and makes everything 158 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: sound so much better than it would have otherwise. See 159 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: you next time.