WEBVTT - Cold Justice 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.080 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:08.480 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.119 It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:12.480 absolutely really paman. 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.160 Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged a top. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:16.680 On a shallow mud bank and it fits. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:16.960 Through a river. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.119 Basically, I think most of the people are used to 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:20.600 me are good people. 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.280 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.360 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:29.880 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.440 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.240 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.600 Amy Maguire and. 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.120 I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:46.480 Support Service. And a warning. This series contains the names 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.839 of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:52.160 some listeners. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.960 In nineteen eighty eight, seventeen year old Aboriginal teenager Mark 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:00.640 Haynes was found dead on train tracks in Tamil Worthy. 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.280 Do not believe me and went out there and laid down. 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.039 Rumors of corruption, racism and murder have swirled around the case. 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.440 Something happened that he got hurt. 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.240 The most basic police in word had not been done. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:19.319 He BuzzFeed News and NTV special investigation Cold Justice, starts 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:21.919 Tuesday nine point thirty pm on NATV. 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:28.400 That was the voice of Aboriginal journalist Alan Clark. Welcome 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.760 to this week's episode of Curtin the Podcast. This week, 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.760 Amy and I sat down with Alan to speak to 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:41.039 him about his three part documentary series called Cold Justice. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.360 It's about the death of an Aboriginal teenager in rural Australia, 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:51.200 Mark Haines, and his family's battle for the truth. Mark 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.680 died in nineteen eighty eight, just a few years before 0:01:55.760 --> 0:02:01.440 Linda was tragically killed in Rockhampton. Sadly, so many of 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.640 the issues we've raised in this podcast are raised again 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:13.200 in Alan's documentary series, police incompetence, family trauma, and a 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:20.079 distinct and clear lack of care and respect for Indigenous lives. Now, 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.200 before we play the interview, here's a grab from the 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:30.679 documentary series with Alan speaking to Mark's uncle, Don Craigie. 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.960 So the inference is that you know, an Aboriginal boy 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:36.680 is likely to do something like that. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:45.280 Well, this is the way any Aboriginal person is treated, 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.080 whether it's within the law or outside of the law. 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.119 Is you know, we feel like we're we're third, if 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:56.079 not fourth class citizens in our own land. From the 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.600 OU said, this is right out a character from Mark, 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.720 and no, we believe he's met with foul play. We 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.040 do not believe he has went out there and laid 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:14.040 down and of his own volition and was hit by 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:18.720 the train by some misadventure. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.959 It's impossible to talk about Mark's murder without talking about 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.920 his uncle John Craigie, known to everyone as Duck. 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.760 He was killed all instantaneously. 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.280 Don is an unstoppable force when it comes to the case. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.360 With my last breath, you know, I will still be 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.160 looking to find out what has happened. 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.120 I truly believe if it wasn't for Don, Mark's case 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.400 would have faded into the past and he would have 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.440 become another statistic. 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.440 If anything any read percussions. As I said to my 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.560 younger brothers, I said, I take full responsibility for it. 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:03.200 From the very beginning, he has doggedly been asking questions, 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.760 lobbying politicians, and demanding answers from the local police. How 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.080 did the police immediately kind of treat the family In 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.320 the following months, afterwards. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:14.600 You know when you get something stuck on the bottom 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.359 of your shoe, Yeah, you know, and you try to 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:18.920 scrape it off or whatever. 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:20.120 It's just like. 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:23.840 They just didn't want to have a bar of us. 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.640 You know, We've got all we need, you know, as 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:30.880 far as we're concerned. The cases closed, so words of 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:31.880 that effect. 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.480 And at the inquest, how did they treat you badly? 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.880 Nothing happened. I kept going back to the police station. 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:47.800 I kept running into the superintendent. He keep saying, well done. 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.880 You never know what a seventeen year old boy would do. 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.160 You never know what a seventeen year old Aboriginal boy 0:04:55.200 --> 0:05:00.599 would do. They just weren't interested in investigating the any further. 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.120 Oh, I was just worrying sort of a remember journalistic perspective, 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.160 What was it about this story that made you just 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:09.800 want to. 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:10.440 Keep following it? 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.320 Were you've been doing it for about four years? 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.200 What was it about this story specifically that really spoke 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:15.440 to you. 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.479 Yeah, there were several things that I guess you could 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:22.359 say dru In. 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.080 In the beginning. First of all, I had no. 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:31.080 Sort of preconceived idea of what the how did the 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:31.960 story would go? 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:33.479 When I first assigned it. 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.640 I was actually working out living in black when it 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:41.400 was under SPS, that's how long ago. And they sent 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.840 me up there because it was the anniversary of Mark's 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:48.359 death and the family were appealing to the partlet for 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:49.040 an information. 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.760 So it was a very sort of routine story, I guess. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.760 When I arrived in Hamworth and met Don Craigie, who 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:02.159 is Mark's uncle, this is really amazing Gomorroy elder there, 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:08.640 he immediately his his grief, his anger, all of these emotions, 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.400 his heightened emotions sort of role is his one big 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.919 ball and all stemmed from not being able to have 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:21.000 the justices and listen to the family. That that immediately 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:27.440 kind of really grabbed me, you know, not only as 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.760 an as a journalist, but also as an aboriginal person 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:37.040 as a quarry. And for me, Mark's family where exactly 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.080 like my family. We're both from regional New south West. 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.920 In fact, I'm worried that I'm gone Roy as well, 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.880 and Mark was Mark was Gomroy as well. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:48.640 I'm related to. 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:53.920 Don's wife's family through our connections out west here. 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:56.800 So there are many things, and I think. 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.480 The story itself as a journal was a good story. 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.920 In one I really wanted to tell. But secondly, I 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:07.320 also wanted to get justice of the family as an 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:13.040 Aboriginal person myself, and you know, it's hard not to 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:17.520 think of when you're covering story like that, Well, if 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.080 that was me found on dead on train tracks like Mark, 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.840 would my family have to go through all of this 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.000 and endure all of this just to get some basic 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:31.040 answers from the police. And that thought spurred me on, 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.040 I guess for the last four years. 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:39.000 For regular listeners of Curtin obviously would know that Amy 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.760 has a particular connection to rock Hampton, and we've just 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.640 heard that Alan has a particular connection to this case 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.400 as well. Alan, I'm just wondering, what was the first 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:55.000 incident or piece of evidence or information that made you 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.840 think the official version of events just don't stack up. 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:01.920 Well. 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:04.920 So the first time I went there, first of all, 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.600 there was a family that was obviously breathing and morning 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:14.080 Mark's death, and that immediately as a journalists you kind 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:19.240 of say, okay, that's understandable. But when you start to 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.920 then see the documents, and for me, it was the 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:26.080 first thing that I saw was the inquest transcript and 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.640 I remember very clearly sitting in my motel. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.400 Room at night, late at night, reading that in. 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.280 Quest transcript and just shaking my head, just getting really frustrated. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.079 Was like watching you know, it was like watching a 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.800 movie and you know, sort of saying, don't do that, 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.120 don't do that, don't do it, you know, and it's. 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:51.160 Just funny, unbelievable. Basically, the interview, sorry, the inquest. 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:57.200 Transcript highlighted just how how little the Oxley Local Area Command, 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:02.120 which the local Timworth Police are apart of, actually did 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:06.200 when it came to the Mark's death, despite all of 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.720 these suspicious things at the scene of the body decided 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:15.240 for the body, uh, like crucial what I would think 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:19.199 was crucial evidence that the police failed to do. That 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.920 kind of in my mind that thements basic police woke 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.280 and you could see that very clearly in that in 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.760 quest transcript. I think that was my jumping off point. 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:29.559 And then of. 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:34.600 Course after that the search was to find witness statements, 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.880 find actual witnesses from the time who would talk. 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.080 And then you know, you go further and further down 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:42.400 that rabit a hole. 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.880 But essentially it was that in quest transcript and very 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:47.840 clearly in black and white you can read, you know, 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.439 the the police that the police take the stand and 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:59.880 you know, kind of incredul incredibiously sort of dismiss their actions. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.120 So one of the things is there was there was 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:05.520 a towel found underneath Mark's. 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.920 Head, really bizarre. Mark was lying on training tracks. 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.560 There was a towel. Everybody who went to the scene 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:12.559 is that a training driver? 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:15.120 Who who drove the train that went over Mark? 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.600 The ambulance people that the police, and the police themselves 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.959 said the towel was really odd and very strange and 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.400 it looked like it had been put under the Mark's head. 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.319 But when they were asked did they did they take it? 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:32.040 They said no, and then they admitted. 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:33.840 That it was lost. They had no idea where it was. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.200 That was for me kind of that that was the. 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.040 Moment of going, oh my god, like, you. 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.160 Know, you should have taken that towel. And then there 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:45.000 was a stolen car that was found nearby, and that 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.520 car would never feeding it printed and it was never 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.960 to take Well, it sat out there for at least 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:56.600 six weeks, the family claims, and any inquest, the officer says, yeah, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.360 they didn't bother it feeding it printed because it had 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.960 rained the night before. He thought it would be useless, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.000 and even when he asked, but what about any started 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.120 the carrier that I don't know whether it was drying 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.040 or not, So things like that you kind of go 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:14.000 outrageous really in my mind, and knowing the backstory, the 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:16.040 knowing that Mark couldn't drive. 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.520 In fact, everyone knew it and thought it was hilarious. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:23.840 Because in Tamworth, you know, a seventeen year old boy 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.199 is normally obsessed with the cars, but Mark just couldn't. 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.479 And yet there was a stolen carting. 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.440 Buy, it was odd towel under his head and that 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.160 was just the stuff of the anomalies. But yeah, it 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.119 was all in the black and white, all publicly accessible 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.480 in any question transcripts, So at that point anyone could 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.200 have seen that and started strowing the dots. 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.959 But yeah, that was my jumping off point. 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.800 It's really interesting when you talk about how you actually 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.160 got into the story and seeing all of the inconsistencies 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.560 police testimonally, because it really parallels a lot about our 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:59.080 own investigations. It couldn't And the thing I found really 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.920 interesting about the first part of your documentary was you 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.959 talked it all over the background of police sitting and 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.440 newf Well at the time, and so I died an 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.160 a eight in ninety nine, nine ninety one of the 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.319 Barribles children went nursing and were found murdered. And for 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.319 the time that happened to Linda in Rock Camp and 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.480 happened to nine ninety one, what was it about that time? 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.200 Do you tell to me how police were actually treating 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.119 Aboriginal people in New Stuff. 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:24.560 At that time? 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.080 Yeah, I mean that's really interesting and I think for 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.800 me as as an Aboriginal reporter, it's a context is 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.280 key when I'm talking about Mark's case, because it was 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.040 a very different police force in the late eighties nineties 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:41.240 in New South. 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:42.640 Wales and all around Australia. 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:48.480 And you know, I didn't want to say Anne indigenous 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.320 audience or people out there to say, oh, you know, 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.480 just typical black follows and bit a chip on their shoulder, 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:55.880 like you know, there are. 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.599 White victims too. I really wanted to ram home the 0:12:58.600 --> 0:12:59.320 fact that there. 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:03.079 Was institute visualized racism at that time. You know, don't 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.600 ask me, don't ask for the community. Go on and 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:09.120 look at the Royal Commission Average Custody and read you 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:10.320 know what they were. 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.440 Uncovering at that time. You know, they passed. 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.160 Through Regional and all the New South Wales, and there 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.000 are some horrific stories about the treatment of communities by 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.280 the police at that time. So you know, all Aboriginal 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.280 people were dying in custody. 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.800 And so why were we at the police force at that 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:30.160 time and. 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:34.560 Then fully commit their resources to their Aboriginal boy. You know, 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.559 it's just you know, so with a quot for me 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.840 explaining that context. The Wood Royal Commission also from that 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:48.120 period uncovering police corruption in South Wales, really widespread police corruption. 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:54.640 Timworth is mentioned several times in that in that Royal Commission. However, 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.800 we don't the Wood Royal Commissions full documents have not 0:13:58.840 --> 0:13:59.760 been released yet. 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:01.960 Happened, and I guess in the next decade. 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.000 Or so, but it'd be really interesting to find out 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.760 the specifics of that at that time because it falls 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.800 right around when Mark died and I'm habitating against that 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:13.360 there must that it wouldn't have. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:14.439 Been quite widespread. 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.600 But yeah, I thought it was important to really said 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.560 that tone and and getting people an understanding, and also 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:26.080 that the Bison henry was happening at that time. People 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.720 were celebrating in the streets like Mark's body was literally 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.560 I was celebrating and also at the time with the 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.200 country music first of all, at time when was no 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:35.840 one for this country music what's. 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:40.040 Happening as well? So like like his uncle said, is 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.720 the last thing anyone cared about it was a dead 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:47.240 Aboriginal boy. And sadly for that time, definitely true. 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.000 And I think the problem in this case is that 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.400 the more I look for, the more easily solvable is. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.600 But the more time goes on, the more complicated it 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.720 gets to actually solve it. So you know, even if 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.520 you had to detect it, who who really wanted to 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.680 solve it? I mean, things have been messed up so 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.000 much from the part that it's very hard for someone 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:11.480 to do it without the resources. 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.680 So and I have spoken with detectives over the years who. 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.880 Taken on the case and really, you know, part of 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.640 the new police force, you say, who. 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:22.400 Wanted to do the right thing. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.040 But they they've told me that they just weren't give 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:27.680 allocated time to work on it. 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.920 So sadly it just sits on the shelves. 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.440 Regular listeners to Curtin will also be shocked at some 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:41.120 of the similarities in the evidence between Curtain's case and 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.040 Mark's case, there's the issue of mud that both of 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.880 them should have had on them and didn't. There's the 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.960 issue of a car nearby that was never forensically checked, 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:58.080 issues of missing evidence that contained blood. Alan, I'm wondering, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.760 what do the police who were there at the time, 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:05.440 who was supposed to have investigated this say about why 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.560 they didn't do a proper forensic investigation. 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:16.080 Well, you're right, I mean, shockingly, it's a very basic explanation. 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.800 So the detective sergeant who was in charge of who 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:25.400 was working as a physical evidence you know at time 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.640 worth at the time, whose job was to actually, you know, 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.320 forensic look at things, says very clearly, well, I didn't 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.080 think it printed because I had been raining heavily the 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.440 night before. And then he's asked, well, you know, even 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.520 the inside he said, well he could have been. I 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.080 mean it could have. He just admitted that he didn't 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.520 know because they did in check. And then when I 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.840 asked him, in your opinion, would there be anything there 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.680 worth printing, and he just said, well, no, they're in 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.520 my opinion there wasn't worth thinking of a printing. And that, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:03.880 I think that just shows you that adds you at 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.280 the time, and no one pursues that, I mean, this 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.639 is the thinking about the inquest. No one sort of 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:15.600 really goes hard on the police and keeps questioning them about. 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.520 These basic flaws in the investigation. But essentially that was 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:20.760 his reasoning. 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.000 That well, he just thought the white mother and he 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:27.320 said that, you know, the thinking of a print brushes 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:31.680 are expensive and water damages them, so if they try 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:33.920 to do it, it would have damaged some of these 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:39.680 expensive thinning of the print brushes. So outrageous, the family 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.280 were going back and forth to the scene in the 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.960 weeks afterwards, and that cast out there in the elements 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:45.280 for at. 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:46.080 Least six weeks. 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.240 The family of themselves, even prior to the boot open, 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.080 took the mat from the boots to the police stations 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.280 that had looking and we think there's blood on this. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:56.600 They were dismissed about that. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.399 They even took other evidence, could tantial evidence from the scene. 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:06.720 One was a cigarette lighter and a pocket home. They 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:08.920 took about it into the police station and then the 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.000 police took about into evidence, and then the inquest said 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.520 that they had taken it. And when they were sort 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.840 of caught out or not caught out, I generally think 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.440 they just didn't remember it when they were reminded that 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:23.720 the family bought and they said, oh well, and it 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.200 might have fell out of the evidence bag at the time, 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.120 and then the found just kind of along and picked 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:28.440 it up. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:30.000 So things like that. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:37.040 It just shows you really just really no comment into 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.080 a duty of care at all. From the beginning. They 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:41.440 pursued the theory of that. 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.840 Market, sold in that car and crashed it, decided to walk. 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.640 In the opposite direction from town at in the middle 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.240 of the night in the following rain, and then somehow 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.840 lie down on training tracks, and. 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:55.760 Yeah, it is that. 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.040 It's really outrageous. 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:04.760 I mean at the time, then when the coroner returned 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:10.920 open findings, you know, the police still kind of didn't. 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.920 Really think it was it was suspicious because the open 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:15.879 binding is kind of they get away there because it's like, 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.560 could be suicide, but it could be I don't know, so. 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.200 Yeah, and I think the coroner that might have had 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:30.240 a different outcome. If we've a thousand medical issues in 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.960 marks a copy. He had an injury, it's not only 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.560 consistent with assault, but that injury wasn't brought up at 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.520 the inquest. And I often think, well, if the doctor 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.600 was after or if the doctor talked about that injury, 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:44.800 I think the outcome of the inquests might have been 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.800 very different and it might have leant towards suspicious death. 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.600 It's really interesting when you were talking about him. When 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.160 I saw the documentary about the family actually gathering evidence, 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.240 in the family having to do everything just to get 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.040 police to even try to take it seriously, it reminds 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:03.200 me of the case up in. 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.919 Darwin that I did just around a lot of. 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:09.119 Time as a young boy who was killed in a 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.560 borolula and then the family actually had to go and 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.040 find tracks, they actually helped find evidence. It was just this, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.600 you know, would any other victim of his family have 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:19.199 to do this? 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:19.600 Alan? 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.119 Why does this continually happen to Aboriginal people? 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.040 And I remember that case very well, and I think 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:29.040 I remember that the police shirking. 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:30.760 It off, saying that these kids are also. 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.720 Almost continueing they go and walk it out or something 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.600 like that, all gone off and play as if Abaginal 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.360 kids just disit here all the time, saying in Barroville, 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.119 you know, you get the police dismissing as not for. 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.480 Alarm, and then a family knowing something was wrong. 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:50.200 I think, and particularly in you know, yeah, this would 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.320 have never happened with the non indigenous victims. 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.840 Or I should also say, you know a lot of 0:20:56.080 --> 0:21:01.280 also very say poor white people who who don't get 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.520 the carriage they deserve either when they can't all investigations, 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:05.080 they deserve it. 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:10.160 But what's in cities though original victims is that often 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.720 an a elicit less sympathy or empathy from the public. 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.600 And part of the theory explores and my. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:22.480 Investigation is speaking with literas of the barons about this issue. Yaba, 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:26.040 how instead of learning at university technology did a study 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:29.960 about me when it came to the barrel of murder 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:34.359 victims and found that you know, overwhelmingly there was just 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.639 very little empathy for dead original children, which is just 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:43.719 horrific indictment I think on our society. But you know, 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.879 you would never like it would be it would be 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.840 everywhere if say William Tyrell family had to go out 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:54.400 and collect evidence and bring it to the to the police, 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:57.439 you know, very famous and just look back at all 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:02.240 our very famous murder cases, visit in person cases. I 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.000 mean if they were a non indigenous family who had 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.439 to go out do their own investigations, that it just 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:10.720 wouldn't fly there would be outraged. 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:12.560 I mean, people would be protesting at the front of 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:13.440 police stations. 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:20.359 But sadly, I think, you know, aberdaging victims just seemed 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.800 to not really matter to the to the er Australian public, 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:31.160 and the same in Don's family. Duct Yeah, Don has 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:35.680 had to him and his brothers went out initially and. 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:37.680 They walked to the scene. They did all of the things 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:39.640 that the police should have done. They walked from the. 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:43.280