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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Hello, it's doctor Justin Coulson with a conversation today that

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Speaker 3: I have been itching to have for months. So a

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Speaker 3: couple of months ago, Rebecca Sparrow, who has one of

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Speaker 3: the most interactive, engaging and uplifting Facebook pages on the Internet,

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Speaker 3: started a conversation about kids in year twelve, year eleven,

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Speaker 3: and year twelve around the country who are going through

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Speaker 3: so much pain and I'm going to use the word

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Speaker 3: trauma as it's associated with their schoolwork because of the

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Speaker 3: pressure to do well, to get into university, to get

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Speaker 3: the results, all of the pressure that's on these kids

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Speaker 3: and the curriculum demands.

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Speaker 2: That these kids are experiencing.

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Speaker 3: Well, Beck caught my attention, but she also reached out

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Speaker 3: to Madonna King, who is the author of the brand

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Speaker 3: new and wonderful book called l Platters. L Platers is

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Speaker 3: Madonna King's new book how to Support your teen daughter

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Speaker 3: on the Road to Adulthood. And Madonna and Beck have

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Speaker 3: started this big I don't know what I'd call it

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Speaker 3: a project, I guess to try to help us to

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Speaker 3: work out what's going on with the curriculum and how

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Speaker 3: we can better support our children at such a stressful

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Speaker 3: time of life. Madonna King, who has been an award

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Speaker 3: winning journalist who has written a bunch of books that

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Speaker 3: have been so so well received, including Being Fourteen and

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Speaker 3: now l Players and a couple of others as well,

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Speaker 3: has joined me for the conversation to day on the podcast. Madonna,

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for having this chat.

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Speaker 1: With me, Thanks for asking Justin, can we.

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Speaker 3: Talk about this evolution, this conversation that Beck started one

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Speaker 3: day because she was in a bit of a mood

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Speaker 3: on Facebook that has literally exploded with thousands and thousands

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Speaker 3: of people becoming involved and creating a whole lot of

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Speaker 3: input for you.

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Speaker 4: Isn't she gorgeous?

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Speaker 1: Like this just worried her because someone had sent an

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Speaker 1: email and she asked about it, and all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden she was just inundated, caught up for a cup

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Speaker 1: of coffee and thought, what can we do?

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Speaker 4: Because for people.

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Speaker 1: To actually put pen to paper or to get onto

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Speaker 1: that keyboard and explain with such rawness what their children

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Speaker 1: are going through is a pretty difficult thing. So we thought,

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Speaker 1: why don't we just set up a website and asked

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Speaker 1: people to upload without identification their story, and so we

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Speaker 1: did it. It's called testing times at school and at

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Speaker 1: spelt out and justin it was phenomenal, Like she mentioned

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Speaker 1: it on her Facebook page and it just went berserk

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Speaker 1: and there wasn't a day that I didn't cry reading them.

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Speaker 1: We've got more than a thousand, and they're the ones

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Speaker 1: we've uploaded. We've not uploaded any that identify as school,

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Speaker 1: a child, something that paints how someone may have taken

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Speaker 1: their life. We've been very, very careful in what we've uploaded,

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Speaker 1: but more than a thousand stories and what they do

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Speaker 1: is just parents, teachers, medicos and students say how this

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Speaker 1: curriculum is currently crueling their last year at school.

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Speaker 2: Talk to me more about that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this whole conversation came about as I recall

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Speaker 3: from somebody who said, what kids are expected to do

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Speaker 3: in grade eleven and twelve is at least at the

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Speaker 3: level of university in first or second year UNI.

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Speaker 2: Am I getting that right?

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Speaker 1: That's what people are saying. So the biggest jump is

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Speaker 1: now year ten to year eleven. That's what all my

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Speaker 1: research shows, and some educators are saying we need to

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Speaker 1: talk more to parents about that jump. We're demanding children

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Speaker 1: decide what subjects they choose in year nine, so they

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Speaker 1: get to the end of year twelve and think, I

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Speaker 1: didn't do biology, I can't be a nurse, or I

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Speaker 1: didn't do specialist maths, I can't do economics.

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Speaker 3: My life's over, which is patally false, right, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's so false.

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Speaker 2: So there's all this pressure.

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Speaker 3: On our fourteen and fifteen year olds to know what

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Speaker 3: they're going to do when they're in year twelve.

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Speaker 1: Or in university, and the stories that are come in

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Speaker 1: paint this picture where oh my.

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Speaker 4: Heart goes out to teachers.

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Speaker 1: Like one teacher just said with such emotion in a

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Speaker 1: note to us, that she dreads a student asking a

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Speaker 1: question out of curiosity because that may take her down

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Speaker 1: a path that she'd love to venture down, but it

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Speaker 1: means she can't get through the content to the curriculum.

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Speaker 1: So she pleads with kids just to let's get through

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Speaker 1: the content. Let's get through the content that's wrong.

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Speaker 3: That's astonishing. I've got a book on my shelf. It's

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Speaker 3: one of my favorite books of all time. It's called

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Speaker 3: The Hungry Mind by Professor Susan Engel, and it's about

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Speaker 3: how our education system has I think you used the

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Speaker 3: word crueled, that the education system has effectively stymied curiosity

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Speaker 3: in kids because we're telling them what they've got to learn,

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Speaker 3: when they've got.

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Speaker 2: To learn it, how they've got to learn it, and

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Speaker 2: why they should have learned it this way or not

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Speaker 2: that way.

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Speaker 3: And she found that kids in primary school they only

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Speaker 3: ask one to two questions per hour other than can

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Speaker 3: I go to the toilet or like? In terms of curiosity,

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Speaker 3: it's just not there, And isn't it the purpose of learning?

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Speaker 1: Isn't the job of the education system to teach our

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Speaker 1: children how to learn life? Learn learning off quotes for

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Speaker 1: an English exam when once you graduate, you look up

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Speaker 1: the quotes. If you can't work this out in a

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Speaker 1: team environment at work, you ask someone. But those skills

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Speaker 1: of teamwork and an inquiring mind, curiosity, listening, critical thinking

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Speaker 1: are not taught or tested. And so we are developing

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Speaker 1: a graduates that may be academically bright in terms of

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Speaker 1: the words they can use or the two thousand word

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Speaker 1: essays they can write.

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Speaker 4: But I do think that sense of what else can

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Speaker 4: I learn?

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Speaker 1: What else can I ask? Where? Might this lead questions

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Speaker 1: that's being really hammered out of them before they actually

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Speaker 1: even graduate.

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Speaker 3: I have two points on this, Madonna. The first is

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Speaker 3: I used to be a university lecturer. I lectured from

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Speaker 3: first year psychology through to master's level psychology. And I

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Speaker 3: can tell you as somebody who has had a lot

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Speaker 3: of time spent in that university context lecturing. My first

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Speaker 3: three daughters have all studied psychology in grades eleven and twelve.

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Speaker 3: Two of them actually dropped out because they hated it

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Speaker 3: so much. But as I've looked at the content that

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Speaker 3: they've been expected to be assessed on, I've watched my

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Speaker 3: year eleven daughters being assessed on content that I was

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Speaker 3: often asking second year university students to develop. And it's

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Speaker 3: astounding to me at two levels. First of all, it's

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Speaker 3: astounding from the point of view that why are we

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Speaker 3: asking our sixteen year olds to know what a second

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Speaker 3: year university student might know? But secondly, school teachers. Are

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Speaker 3: we honestly expecting school teachers to be assessing psychology content

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Speaker 3: at a second year university level when they're not psychologically trained?

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Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: This is crazy?

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Speaker 1: Well? And what underpins that is if we had the

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Speaker 1: best education system in the world, if our students were

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Speaker 1: graduating ahead of those in Asia or Europe, you would say, alright.

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Speaker 4: Well it must be worth it, and that's the opportunity cost.

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Speaker 1: But some will think it's worth it right, But we

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Speaker 1: are not.

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Speaker 4: We're going down.

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Speaker 1: So at every level I think something is wrong. And

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Speaker 1: you know I mentioned the website that Beck and I

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Speaker 1: set up. You know, I just before we got on randomly,

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Speaker 1: randomly with my eyes closed, picked one note. Let me

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Speaker 1: read it to you. I work in an emergency department

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Speaker 1: in a new South Wales hospital. I see people under

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Speaker 1: twenty five coming in with mental health concerns. The amount

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Speaker 1: of young people coming to ed with suicidal thoughts, actual

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Speaker 1: self harm and attempted suicide that report the stress of

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Speaker 1: year eleven and twelve is the reason they want to

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Speaker 1: die is outstanding. I see a lot of students at

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Speaker 1: the start of year eleven when they first realize the

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Speaker 1: expectations and workload and then increase in term three of

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Speaker 1: year twelve. These students say things like, I can't keep

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Speaker 1: up with the work, I'll never get into UNI. What's

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Speaker 1: the point in living if I can't pass school? I'm dumb,

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Speaker 1: I'm stupid, I'm a disappointment. I'll never be able to

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Speaker 1: get a DCT. John. That's just a mental health professional

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Speaker 1: in New South Wales.

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Speaker 4: Who is talking about a public school?

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Speaker 1: One out of a thousand, and yet we don't even

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Speaker 1: have someone with a mental health background or someone like

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Speaker 1: you sitting on our curriculum review boards.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm wiping my hand around. I'll do it. I'd

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Speaker 2: love to be in there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but surely if we are looking out for the

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Speaker 1: mental health of our children. And I get emotional talking.

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Speaker 4: About this, because some children will fly through, but many

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Speaker 4: many won't.

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Speaker 1: Our teaching and bless our teachers, they can't. They can't

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Speaker 1: teach individually. So are they teaching to the top of

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Speaker 1: the class, the bottom of the class, the middle of

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Speaker 1: the class. Certainly in independent private schools they're kind of

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Speaker 1: trying to lift everyone so that they appear in these

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Speaker 1: league tables.

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Speaker 4: Because that is what is required of them.

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Speaker 1: But what is happening at a very private level is

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Speaker 1: children are thinking they're not worth it, and their giving up,

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Speaker 1: and we as adults and educators and just people with

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Speaker 1: a heart and a head, have to sit down and think, well,

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Speaker 1: how can we not decrease the academic merit of what

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Speaker 1: we do. You know not, but we need to deliver it,

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Speaker 1: perhaps in a different way, or do it in a

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Speaker 1: way that recognizes a A in physics is not the

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Speaker 1: road to.

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Speaker 2: Be Prime Minister Madona.

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Speaker 3: After the break, let's talk about your meeting with the

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Speaker 3: curriculum body, you and Rebecca how to sit down face

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Speaker 3: to face with them.

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Speaker 2: And we'll also talk about some solutions for parents.

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Speaker 3: Who are hoping and praying that a curriculum change might

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Speaker 3: come along, but at the moment there's only so much

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Speaker 3: you can do.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about what we can do.

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Speaker 3: As parents to help our kids through this troubling time.

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Speaker 3: That's right after this on the Happy Families podcast, Get Curious,

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Speaker 3: Not Furious, be where your feeder mistakes lead to mar

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Speaker 3: high emotions, low intelligence. Have you ever heard these or

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Speaker 3: any of the other principles I share and thought I

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Speaker 3: need to stick that on my wall?

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Speaker 2: Well now you can.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Family team has pulled out the best justinisms

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Speaker 3: for a five mini posters, perfect for your home or

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Speaker 3: even the classroom, and easy to grab at happy families

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Speaker 3: dot com dot a you. It's the Happy Families Podcast,

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Speaker 3: the podcast for the time, poor parent who just wants

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Speaker 3: answers now Today are very sobering conversation with Madonna King,

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Speaker 3: the author of the fabulous book L Platers L Platers

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Speaker 3: How to Support your teen daughter on the Road to Adulthood.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is the age that we're talking about,

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Speaker 2: isn't it, Madonna?

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Speaker 3: That we've got these kids who are leaving high school,

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Speaker 3: they're emerging into adulthood.

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Speaker 2: They need our support.

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Speaker 3: All of this excessive and unnecessary demand is being placed

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Speaker 3: on them academically, sometimes by us as parents because we

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Speaker 3: just want our kids to do well in life, sometimes

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Speaker 3: by teachers because they want the kids to do well,

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Speaker 3: or a cynic might say because the school needs to

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Speaker 3: have some high results because it's good for their marketing,

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Speaker 3: and sometimes on themselves.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's not even an adult that's involved in this.

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Speaker 3: It's just the kids putting this pressure on themselves.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the big one. I think parents are

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Speaker 1: recognizing the need for their child to be happy. They're

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Speaker 1: wondering why they're so sad and feeling isolated and not connected,

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Speaker 1: And I think schools do everything they can within it's

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Speaker 1: a systemic problem. It's not an individual school protr I think,

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Speaker 1: But what we are seeing, and I'm seeing in my

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Speaker 1: research is girls quite young, look around, take on.

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Speaker 4: The messages of those delivered by a social media.

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Speaker 1: Or in their friendship group, and they see their friends

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Speaker 1: getting eight out of ten at maths, they're getting six,

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Speaker 1: and instead of thinking it's like learning to ice skate,

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Speaker 1: I've got a practice, they think I'm dumb. I'm never

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Speaker 1: going to be good at maths, and therefore they decide

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Speaker 1: as young as ten, eleven and twelve that they won't

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Speaker 1: take that stream. And so I think very much it's

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Speaker 1: girls particularly, and that's my specialty than boys putting pressure

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Speaker 1: on themselves and then judging themselves brutally when you don't

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Speaker 1: measure up and almost giving up, justin almost giving up,

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Speaker 1: rather than thinking, all right, this is a challenge, and

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Speaker 1: how do I actually develop a confidence and an independence

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Speaker 1: in actually nailing this.

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Speaker 3: It reminds me of two different bits of research that

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Speaker 3: have really struck me. The one is around perfectionism. So

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Speaker 3: research shows that perfectionists do extremely well in school because

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Speaker 3: you've got this fixed way.

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Speaker 2: Of doing things.

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Speaker 3: You're in very clearly defined parameters, and then there's a

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Speaker 3: clear pathway to perfectionism or something close to it to

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Speaker 3: an excellent outcome. But the research show also shows that

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Speaker 3: once they get out of high school, perfectionists fall and

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Speaker 3: fail badly. It's a really it's a recipe for disaster

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Speaker 3: once we get out of the very clear structures of school.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that your conversation reminds me of is

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Speaker 3: a psychological reality called self other knowledge asymmetry, which basically

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Speaker 3: means I can see what's happening inside my head and

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Speaker 3: I'm falling apart. I'm one hot mess. You you're getting a's,

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Speaker 3: you're killing it. You're on the stage getting merrit awards,

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Speaker 3: and you're this, and you're that, You're amazing. And so

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Speaker 3: I've got all this self knowledge about my own pathetic failings,

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Speaker 3: and my only knowledge of you as a other.

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Speaker 2: Is that you're the star of the show.

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Speaker 3: Therefore, I assess that I must be deficient and dysfunctional

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Speaker 3: as a human, and you are perfect and know how

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Speaker 3: to do it. What we don't know is the mess

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Speaker 3: that's happening inside the head of the person who we're watching.

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Speaker 3: That there's an asymmetry between our knowledge of what's going

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Speaker 3: on between self and other.

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Speaker 1: And I think our kids are really bright for our players.

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Speaker 1: I sought the council of a thousand girls age sixteen, seventeen,

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Speaker 1: and eighteen, and some of them picked.

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Speaker 4: Up on that and even said, I am jealous of

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Speaker 4: such and such because she's happy, or I want to

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Speaker 4: feel contented like such and such. I thought that was

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Speaker 4: really clever.

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Speaker 1: Because they're understanding that all of this war paper that

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Speaker 1: dominates their lives is not delivering that happiness that they

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Speaker 1: that they deserve in their final year of school. And

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Speaker 1: I think they've got to start listening to that little

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Speaker 1: voice inside of them, not the voice outside of them.

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Speaker 1: They've got a nurture that voice inside of them and

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Speaker 1: grow that. And I think from a parent's perspective, we've

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Speaker 1: got to let them fail, you know. And I say

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Speaker 1: that and people think, well, well, you don't want your

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Speaker 1: kids fall, and of course you don't, but you know,

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Speaker 1: just in my own family, I have a daughter who

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Speaker 1: is quite bright. She works hard, but I'll still remember

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Speaker 1: this science paper that she did in year ten and

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Speaker 1: she finished it.

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Speaker 4: Handed it in, and as she handed it in, she

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Speaker 4: turned it.

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Speaker 1: Over and realized there was a mark ten marks on

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Speaker 1: the back that she didn't see. Well, the crying lasted

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Speaker 1: for a long, long, long.

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Speaker 4: Time, but you know what, and I felt.

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Speaker 1: So sorry for it, And she ended up getting quite

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Speaker 1: a good mark in any case. But now in your

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Speaker 1: lef and twelve and she's about to go into externals,

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Speaker 1: in You're eleven and twelve, the first thing she does

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Speaker 1: when she gets an exam paper is turns over and

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Speaker 1: sees the back. She failed, and she learned a lesson.

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Speaker 1: And I only say that because the more we let

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Speaker 1: our children fail, even in little things, the more they

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Speaker 1: learn to independently make a decision. And I think there's

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Speaker 1: been this correlation where we don't want them to fail.

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Speaker 1: We're having less and less children, and we've more and

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Speaker 1: more invested, and COVID's made us want to deliver to

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Speaker 1: them what we can. But as a result of that,

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Speaker 1: I think we're almost setting them up for failure. The

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Speaker 1: moment all those structures, school structures disappear, there's not a

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Speaker 1: teacher saying, look, do forty minutes on homework on this,

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Speaker 1: or here's a practice paper or a hand in your draft,

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Speaker 1: or you know, go home and do the Oh you

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Speaker 1: don't look well done, and are you okay? Did you

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Speaker 1: break up with your boyfriend? All of that disappears in

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Speaker 1: November of year twelve, and that's where, like a big balloon,

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Speaker 1: so many children just deflate and they don't know how

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Speaker 1: to get that energy that airback.

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Speaker 3: I want to wrap it up there, but I feel

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Speaker 3: like there's a couple of other things that I want

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Speaker 3: to throw in as well, Ma Donna, and I'd love

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Speaker 3: to get your feedback on it based on what you've read.

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Speaker 3: So one thing that I think we need to do

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Speaker 3: is let kids know that the atar actually doesn't matter

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Speaker 3: that much at all. We've got universities accepting early entry.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I think that it's recently to say university

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Speaker 3: isn't the be all and end all either. There are

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Speaker 3: so many people who do so many things that don't

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Speaker 3: require a university degree that make valuable contributions and help

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Speaker 3: them to lead meaningful lives, and they raise great families,

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Speaker 3: and they're like this idea that university matters so much

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Speaker 3: we place this premium on the value of a university education. Now,

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Speaker 3: I believe in getting all the education you can get.

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Speaker 3: But I look at my dad, who runs a furniture

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Speaker 3: moving company, and I think to myself, I love that man,

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Speaker 3: and I don't really care that he.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't have a university degree.

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Speaker 3: He's a great dad, he's got six fantastic kids, and

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Speaker 3: I just I so appreciate him. I look at the

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Speaker 3: guy who came and fixed my head either the other day,

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Speaker 3: or the bloke that's supplying me with gas at my house,

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Speaker 3: or the person who keeps my lawns green or whatever

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Speaker 3: it is, or all that sort of stuff, and I

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Speaker 3: just think university degrees are important and we definitely need them,

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Speaker 3: but not everyone has to have one, and putting pressure

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Speaker 3: on our kids to go to university, especially when they

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Speaker 3: don't know what they want to do. I mean again,

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Speaker 3: as a university lecturer, formally, I don't believe the kids

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Speaker 3: should be at university full stop, end of story. University

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Speaker 3: is a place for adults, not kids. And when I

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Speaker 3: look at those first years that came through my lecture

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Speaker 3: theaters and my tutorial groups, I reckon ten percent of

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Speaker 3: them were ready for university. The other ninety percent wasting

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Speaker 3: their time, wasting money.

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Speaker 2: Ridiculous.

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Speaker 4: So two things I.

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Speaker 1: Think our schools need to explain to parents and to

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Speaker 1: children that only up to fifty percent of children do

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Speaker 1: not sit for a natar many of them go on

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Speaker 1: to university but we keep hearing, particularly in private independent schools,

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Speaker 1: that one hundred percent of kids get a NATAR, and

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Speaker 1: many schools encourage that when you don't need a NATAR

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Speaker 1: how to go to university, there are other parts.

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Speaker 4: You don't need an ATA to get a good job.

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Speaker 4: I think that's really important.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing I would say is just to

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Speaker 1: back you about that adults and university.

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Speaker 4: COVID has had more impact on.

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Speaker 1: This generation and this cohort of kids than any other.

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Speaker 1: You know. Mark mccriindle, the demographer, says, from a health perspective,

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Speaker 1: it was the elderly, but from a social and economic perspective,

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Speaker 1: it's the kids we're talking about. And I think it

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Speaker 1: is really really important for us to understand that they

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Speaker 1: have missed the experiences that you and I had, that

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Speaker 1: they're big sisters and brothers, had to make judgments, to

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Speaker 1: take calculated risks, to make decisions and regret them. And

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Speaker 1: what we are seeing now in first year university students

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Speaker 1: is children more like fifteen than eighteen. And as parents,

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Speaker 1: I think we need to gift back those experiences and

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Speaker 1: be aware that our children are graduating without that competence,

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Speaker 1: confidence and independence that pre COVID was so easy to

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Speaker 1: get them.

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Speaker 2: Gosh, I feel like we could talk about this for days.

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Speaker 3: We've gone well, well well over time, and yet we've

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Speaker 3: barely scratched the surface. The work that you and Beck

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Speaker 3: have done on this, I'm going to call it a project.

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Speaker 3: I know it's informal and it's just kind of evolving,

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Speaker 3: but the work that you've done in this project is important.

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Speaker 3: It's created a conversation that matters, and I love what

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Speaker 3: you're doing. If people want to find out more about

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Speaker 3: it and get their stories on your website, whereabouts should

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Speaker 3: they go?

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Speaker 1: Follow Beck on Facebook Rebecca Sparrow or go to www

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Speaker 1: dot Testing Times at school at is spelt out and

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Speaker 1: you will read what other parents, teaches, students, academics and

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Speaker 1: medicos are saying. Add yours, but please don't identify the

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Speaker 1: school or your child. And the more we get, the

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Speaker 1: more we can present to.

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Speaker 2: Government and just congratulations on great work.

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Speaker 3: Additionally, if you would like more information about what Madonna

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Speaker 3: has to offer for your late teen daughters from age

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Speaker 3: sixteen up, check out her book l Players, How to

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Speaker 3: Support Your teen Daughter on the Road to Adulthood. Madonna

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Speaker 3: such a pleasure to talk to you. I wish we

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Speaker 3: had more time.

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Speaker 2: This has been great you too, Thanks Justin.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulan from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media, with Craig Bruce as our executive producer. If

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Speaker 3: you'd like morefo about making your family happier, visit happyfamilies

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Speaker 3: dot com dot a you