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Speaker 1: For recent weeks there has been a lot of discussion

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Speaker 1: about the pay freeze which is impacting frontline government workers.

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Speaker 1: It was a point of contention in the recent Police

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Speaker 1: Association survey and today the police associations amping up their

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Speaker 1: calls for change when it comes to the freeze for officers.

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Speaker 1: The calls follow a pay deal being struck in Queensland

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Speaker 1: which sees the police set to receive an eleven percent

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Speaker 1: pay rise over three years, plus a payment of up

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Speaker 1: to three percent per year if CPI exceeds annual wage increases.

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Speaker 1: Now in Queensland as well, superannuations also going to be

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Speaker 1: paid on shift allowances for the first time under agreements

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Speaker 1: for both non commissioned and commissioned officers. They'll also receive

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Speaker 1: an extra week off for officers working about half of

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Speaker 1: the week weekend days in a year, and the agreement

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Speaker 1: is also going to allow officers to choose their district

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Speaker 1: after they've completed a hard to fill rural placement for

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Speaker 1: the Queensland Police Service. Now, there's no doubt that it's

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Speaker 1: a massive deal in Queensland. It is expected to cost

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Speaker 1: more than one hundred and forty million.

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Speaker 2: Dollars a year.

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Speaker 1: So where are things at when it comes to those

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Speaker 1: negotiations here in the Northern Territory. Well, joining me in

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Speaker 1: the studio right now is Paul mchue, the president of

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Police Association.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Paul, Good morning Katie, Thanks so

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Speaker 2: much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Now, Paul, obviously this issue of pay is becoming a

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Speaker 1: concern across the board for the Northern Territory Government. What's

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Speaker 1: the situation from the Northern Territory Police perspective.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look sadly nothing along the lines of what Queensland

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Speaker 3: have come up with. Sadly, but you know, we're still

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Speaker 3: working really hard on behalf of our members to make

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Speaker 3: the very clear message that what's being put on the

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Speaker 3: table by government at the moment is simply not good enough.

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Speaker 3: In fact, it's probably the most insulting offer I've ever

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Speaker 3: seen put on the table for our members of the

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Speaker 3: Northern Territory Police. So you're talking many, many years of

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Speaker 3: pay deals and this is a pay freeze extraordinary in

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Speaker 3: the current climate we're in.

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Speaker 1: So, Paul, what exactly are the Northern Territory Police after here.

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Speaker 3: We've made it clear from the start that we are

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Speaker 3: after a salary rise in real terms.

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Speaker 4: Now, when you have a look.

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Speaker 3: At what's the economic climate we're in right now, We're

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Speaker 3: inflation is at two decade highs, We've got interest rates

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Speaker 3: going through the roof, We've got cost of living pressures

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Speaker 3: all over the place. Now this applies equally to our

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Speaker 3: police as any other member of the community. Now, on

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Speaker 3: top of that, we've got a police force that's losing

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Speaker 3: ten percent of their ranks each and every year. We're

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Speaker 3: talking one hundred and sixty plus officers leaving the force.

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Speaker 3: So there's an enormous incentive issue in keeping our police

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Speaker 3: here in the northerner.

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Speaker 1: And then how do you think that incentive issue changes

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Speaker 1: when you look at what Queensland's just done for example.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know that it's not that easy.

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Speaker 1: I don't think to just switch across and go from

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Speaker 1: working in the territory to go and work in another stace.

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Speaker 2: But what kind of impact do you reckon that's going

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Speaker 2: to have.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it will certainly impact particularly our young officers.

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Speaker 3: I would think when you're young, you've got no real

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Speaker 3: commitments here, you're not locked into anything here in the

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Speaker 3: Northern Territory, and you suddenly see that pay deal in

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Speaker 3: some of the areas you can work over there in Queensland.

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Speaker 3: It is definitely going to impact here in the territory,

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Speaker 3: which is really disappointing. Great for Queensland, not so good

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Speaker 3: for the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I guess even looking at what they're

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Speaker 1: doing in Queensland, I'm assuming that there's a larger number

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Speaker 1: of police officers in Queensland, but it is expected to

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Speaker 1: cost them over one hundred and forty million.

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Speaker 2: Dollars a year.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's no doubt that any increase in pay

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Speaker 1: for Northern Territory police is going it's going to hit

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Speaker 1: the budget, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: It's no doubt. I mean, obviously you want people here,

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Speaker 3: you've got to pay them. It's as simple as that. Well,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about here are sixteen hundred plus members of

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Speaker 3: the Northern Territory Police Force. We know exactly what's going

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Speaker 3: on in our community at the moment. We've got crime

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Speaker 3: issues across the board. I've got youth crime issues, alcohol

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Speaker 3: related harm everywhere, domestic and family violence and it's the

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Speaker 3: police that carries the burden of that community issue. So

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Speaker 3: if you're not going to recognize that work and particularly

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Speaker 3: that work they've done over the last few.

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Speaker 4: Years for this community.

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Speaker 3: Then that sends a very clear message we don't want

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Speaker 3: you to stay, and that's the problem we've got here.

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Speaker 2: Well, have you met with the Minister responsible?

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Speaker 3: We've asked to meet with Minister Paul Kirby's Minister for

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Speaker 3: Public Employment. He has not reached out to speak with

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Speaker 3: us at all since we started these negotiations.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't be more disappointed with that.

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Speaker 3: Now he's the Minister Responsible and he's handbled that responsibility

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Speaker 3: to the Commissioner for Public Employment and Commissioner for Police,

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Speaker 3: yet we are still not being afforded the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: meet with him.

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Speaker 1: The Northern Territory government have been at pains to say

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Speaker 1: that they're very much negotiating with all of the frontline

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Speaker 1: workers that are obviously involved in this paid dispute. So

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Speaker 1: what you're saying to me is that you've not even

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Speaker 1: been able to get.

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Speaker 2: A meeting with the minister.

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Speaker 4: No, that's correct, extraordinary, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: It is quite extraor I mean, so, how are you

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Speaker 2: meant to negotiate here?

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Speaker 3: Well, we meet with the Commissioner for Public Employments, representatives

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Speaker 3: and the Commissioner for police representatives. But when you're talking

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Speaker 3: about a pay deal that has never been put before

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Speaker 3: our officers that I can recall in terms of a

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Speaker 3: pay freeze, and the Minister Responsible sends back a three

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Speaker 3: sentence letter. Since February of this year, we've only once

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Speaker 3: had that and it simply says you can keep negotiating

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Speaker 3: good faith with my representatives. I'm not, clearly not interested

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Speaker 3: in talking to you now.

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Speaker 1: I'm keen to know is does the Northern Territory Police

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Speaker 1: Commissioner support this pay freeze.

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Speaker 3: He has signed the letter with the Commissioner for Public

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Speaker 3: Employment for the pay frees so that's his position.

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Speaker 2: So yes, clearly.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, how is that sort of how do

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Speaker 1: you think that comes into play given that recent survey.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've obviously got a situation where eighty seven

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Speaker 1: point nine percent as I understand it, of Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: police respondents said that they were dissatisfied with the pay

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Speaker 1: for But then you've also got seventy nine point seven

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Speaker 1: who said that they didn't have confidence in the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territories Police Commissioner.

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Speaker 4: It's an extraordinary position to take.

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Speaker 3: Now, obviously there is a pay pay freeze policy in

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Speaker 3: place by government what the government are saying and by default,

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Speaker 3: the commissioner by signing those letters is saying that that's

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Speaker 3: what we're offering you.

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Speaker 4: That is in no way an incentive to.

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Speaker 3: Keep our police here and a very extraordinary position for

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Speaker 3: the commissioner to take.

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Speaker 1: Well on that, where are things that since that survey

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Speaker 1: was released showing that the majority of police don't have

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Speaker 1: confidence in the commissioner?

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Speaker 2: Are you meeting with him regularly?

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Speaker 4: Yes, we are every week.

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Speaker 3: I made that commitment of conference this year when he

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Speaker 3: attended a panel session with the deputy commissioners was clear

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Speaker 3: and no on certain terms how they representatives felt, and

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Speaker 3: since that time we have been meeting weekly, which has

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Speaker 3: been a positive and in fact we're meeting with him

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Speaker 3: this morning as well to continue those discussions. So you know,

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Speaker 3: all those issues that we're raised in that survey have

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Speaker 3: been provided to him directly.

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Speaker 1: Well, and what's the message going to be not only

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Speaker 1: for the Police Commissioner but also for the Minister responsible

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Speaker 1: obviously with these negotiations with the pays.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's quite clear.

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Speaker 3: I mean, when you're looking at a deals around a

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Speaker 3: country and it's not just queens, then We've got New

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Speaker 3: South Wales Western Australia as well that have increased their

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Speaker 3: offers to their police officers, including a cost of living

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Speaker 3: cash bonus. You know, it's quite clear that we are,

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Speaker 3: I guess, the laughing stock of the country when it

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Speaker 3: comes to recognizing, you know, what police are doing for

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Speaker 3: this community and putting something to them that makes them

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Speaker 3: want to stay.

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Speaker 1: So all right, well, so we're going to have to

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Speaker 1: wait and see. I guess where these scends like. The

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Speaker 1: government seems to have some real issues on their hands

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Speaker 1: right now when you talk about all of our frontline

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Speaker 1: workers wanting to negotiate these you know, their pays and there.

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Speaker 2: Being no real movement.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think that they're going to be able

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Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, to remain the way that

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Speaker 1: they are with this freeze in place.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's fine to say we don't have

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Speaker 3: a lot of money in the budget, but when you've

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Speaker 3: got cost of living pressures that we have at the moment,

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Speaker 3: coupled with an attrition rate that is in double figures,

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Speaker 3: you've got to come to the table with a reasonable offer,

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Speaker 3: and they have not done that to this point in time.

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Speaker 3: We will continue to lobby hard on behalf of our members.

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Speaker 3: They deserve it. They've given a lot for this community

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Speaker 3: in the last three to four years and we want

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Speaker 3: to see recognition for that, such as the offer that's

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Speaker 3: Queensland has.

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Speaker 4: Been put to Paul.

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Speaker 1: I do want to speak to you about some of

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Speaker 1: the other issues that we're experiencing right around the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory at the moment, and you did touch on it.

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Speaker 2: Just a few moments ago.

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Speaker 1: That issue of crime now in Central Australia. It's been

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Speaker 1: raging for quite some time, but you'd have to say

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Speaker 1: that it's reached fever, Pitch. I think over the last

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Speaker 1: week or so. There's even some photos on the Action

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Speaker 1: for Alis page today of what looks as though it's

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Speaker 1: been a ram raid at a takeaway outlet or at

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Speaker 1: a you know, at.

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Speaker 2: An outlet there in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 1: Now, we also spoke too to Tourism Central Australia who

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Speaker 1: have said they need urgent action from a police perspective.

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Speaker 2: How are things going in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 4: Look, it's tough.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, for a long time Central Australia

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Speaker 3: has suffered from ol cohorelated harm at youth crime issues

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Speaker 3: as well as many other factors. I was there last

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Speaker 3: week and a business had been broken into yet again,

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Speaker 3: I think for the fortieth time in three years, thirty

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Speaker 3: five thousand dollars worth of damage. And this seems to

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Speaker 3: be a common occurrence obviously, every single day. And what

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Speaker 3: we're seeing down there is our police doing an incredible

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Speaker 3: job with what they've got, but they simply can't do

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Speaker 3: it all.

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Speaker 2: Paul, what are they saying? What are the police saying?

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Speaker 1: Because you know their frontline, we know that we're hearing

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Speaker 1: a lot of talk about people sort of wanting to

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Speaker 1: see a greater police presence walking through the streets and

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Speaker 1: through the mall.

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Speaker 2: So what are officers saying to you?

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Speaker 3: Look, they feeling very frustrated at the moment. Obviously, they

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Speaker 3: want to do everything they can. They want to be

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Speaker 3: out there proactively policing. They want to be seen day

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Speaker 3: and night for the community. But quite frankly, their requirements

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Speaker 3: of the job these days are so tough, you know,

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Speaker 3: and there's so much going on, you know, not just

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Speaker 3: in our springs but across the board that they're just

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Speaker 3: feeling like their hands are tight at the moment, and

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Speaker 3: you know, they just want to they just want to

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Speaker 3: see more boots on the ground. But of course at

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Speaker 3: the moment they've only got what they've got.

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Speaker 1: Now, what about this Stronger Future legislation? In your opinion,

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Speaker 1: hasn't had an impact. I mean, obviously we've still got

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming Pali's on those bottle shops, don't we.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, look we do.

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Speaker 3: We've got an issue in terms of retention of those

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Speaker 3: officers please liquor inspectors. As you could imagine, Katie, it's

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Speaker 3: probably not the most desirable job going around out there.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I think we're down to about fifteen when

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Speaker 3: we should have forty one there in Ourae Springs. So

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Speaker 3: obviously the shortfall is therefore picked up by constables and

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Speaker 3: therefore taking more officers off the beat. But what we've

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Speaker 3: seen since Stronger Futures is some pretty alarming statistics. Really,

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Speaker 3: I've got a stat here for you. The seventy days

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Speaker 3: since Stronger Futures ceased, we've seen around two hundred and

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Speaker 3: seventeen refusals per day, or fifteen thousand in that period.

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Speaker 3: The similar period prior to that, just forty eight per day,

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Speaker 3: or three thousand, eight hundred and ninety five percent of

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Speaker 3: those refusals are for intoxication. So wow, that's an enormous

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Speaker 3: amount of impact to that community and of course the

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Speaker 3: safety of our members.

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Speaker 1: And so then when you look at that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: two hundred and seventeen refusals per day, say, yeah, that's unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: We've only got about nine outlets down there in our springs,

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Speaker 3: So those statistics are alarming, and particularly when you take

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Speaker 3: into account what alcohol related harm does to our community.

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Speaker 3: So whilst there might be a choice now for some

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Speaker 3: individuals in our community, the flow on effects have been devastating.

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Speaker 1: And then though, Paul, do you think that what you're seeing,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you've got two hundred and seventeen refusals

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Speaker 1: per day, do you think that then that is why

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Speaker 1: you're seeing a bit of an increase in like those

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Speaker 1: takeaway outlets and places like that being targeted in terms

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Speaker 1: of theft.

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Speaker 3: There's no doubt obviously those smaller, you know, liquor outlets

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Speaker 3: down there in Alice Springs have seen a dramatic increase

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Speaker 3: in refusals and approaches by intoxicated people to purchase alcohol.

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Speaker 3: But of course, you know, the more alcohol in the community,

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Speaker 3: the more risk there is for crime. To increase as well,

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Speaker 3: and of course the safety of our community is at risk.

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Speaker 1: Can I just go back to those other numbers of

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Speaker 1: the palis, So you said that there's fifteen of those

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Speaker 1: palis on the bottle shops at the moment there's usually

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Speaker 1: forty five.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: They were funded in Alice Springs for around forty one or.

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Speaker 4: Forty two parlies.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but they've always had issues retaining them, and of

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Speaker 3: course that then flows onto the constables to pick up

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Speaker 3: the slave.

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Speaker 1: So now I guess, presumably rather than our constables, you know,

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Speaker 1: doing those visual patrols in the streets of Alice Springs,

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Speaker 1: they're having to stand outside bottle shops.

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Speaker 3: They are, and I think it's probably time, since this

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Speaker 3: legislation has been amended or been removed, to have a

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Speaker 3: look at that model.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: That model for liquor inspectors to be at the bottle

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Speaker 3: shops came in after the Riley Review was taken place

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Speaker 3: in around twenty seventeen. Of course, with the legislation changing,

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Speaker 3: it's almost you know, there's no point essentially having our

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Speaker 3: police warned police officers standing there. Now they could be

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Speaker 3: out there doing other work. We could convert those pari

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Speaker 3: positions to constable positions, and how about we put the

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Speaker 3: onus back on the actual business owners who are selling

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Speaker 3: the alcohol into our communities to actually pick up the slack,

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Speaker 3: get some extra security and do their bit.

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Speaker 1: Hey, I want to move along just very quickly, because

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Speaker 1: we also know that the issue of youth crime has

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Speaker 1: been a major concern right around the Northern territory. What

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Speaker 1: impact do police officers who are speaking to you through

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Speaker 1: the union obviously, what are they saying that the impact

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Speaker 1: is having with youths across the territory right now?

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Speaker 4: Look, it's a major problem.

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Speaker 3: I mean, obviously we don't want to see kids in custody,

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Speaker 3: We don't want to see children destined for a life

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Speaker 3: of crime. But police need options, you know, and it

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Speaker 3: shouldn't just be for the police officers to pick up

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Speaker 3: these pieces. We've got to have other agencies and non

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Speaker 3: government organizations doing their bit, and otherwise it'll be a

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Speaker 3: case of what are the police stopped doing? If you

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Speaker 3: want us to keep doing all of this, then what

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Speaker 3: else are we going to stop?

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Speaker 1: What's going to happen though, Paul as well, you know,

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Speaker 1: there are obviously concerns about raising the age of criminal responsibility.

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Speaker 1: Now we've got a situation very regularly, so it's not

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Speaker 1: even occasionally that we're hearing about sort of ten year

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Speaker 1: olds or eleven year olds engaged in pretty serious issues

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Speaker 1: of crime. And what do you think is going to

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Speaker 1: happen if they do indeed raise the age of criminal responsibility?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, this is obviously a national push and obviously

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Speaker 3: some of our most serious crimes are being committed by

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Speaker 3: you know, nine, ten eleven year old children. You know,

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Speaker 3: what we don't want to see is the victims, you know,

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Speaker 3: rights be set aside, and effectively there will be nothing

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Speaker 3: in place to deal with those young offenders. And it's

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Speaker 3: generally a small cohort of really serious young offenders that

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Speaker 3: we need to to deal with. And if we come

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Speaker 3: into vene and divert those children to other options because

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Speaker 3: the age of criminal responsibility has risen, that's not good

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Speaker 3: for our community and not good for the children.

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Speaker 1: So where from your perspective, where are things at at

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Speaker 1: the moment with this push to raise the age of

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Speaker 1: criminal responsibility? I mean, the government's given no firm date,

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Speaker 1: but they have said in the past under Michael Gunner

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Speaker 1: that it was going to happen before the next election.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's edging closer and closer it is.

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Speaker 3: Look, I've got no doubt based on our conversations that

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Speaker 3: it's certainly something high on the agenda for government.

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Speaker 4: I have no doubt it's going to be coming in

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Speaker 4: sooner rather than later.

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Speaker 1: I think that's going to be quite a concern to

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Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners this morning. Paul Mchughe, president

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Speaker 1: of the Police Association, we better leave it. They're always

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Speaker 1: good to catch up. Thank you so much for your

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Speaker 1: time this morning.

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Speaker 4: Good on you. Thanks Caattie.