1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Hello, it's Amantha here. It is a long weekend here 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: in Melbourne, so I've handpicked one of my favorite episodes 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: from this year to share with you. Okay, on with 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: today's best of episode, New Year, New Me? But does 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: it still count as a new year if it's already March. 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: If you set some lofty goals as part of your 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: resolutions for twenty twenty two, now's when they're truly tested. 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: The optimistic sheine of January one has started to wear 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: off and the new year can start to feel like 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: just another year. So how do you keep your progress 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: chagging along? And what if you don't want to wait 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: until January twenty twenty three to set new goals? Thankfully, 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: Katie Milkman wrote the book on How to Change. Literally, 14 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: How to Change is packed with science based tips and 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: tricks for how to pursue your goals and become the 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: person you want to be. It covers everything from getting 17 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: to the gym more often, to when you should and 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't give other people advice. And as a best selling author, 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: podcast host, and Warton professor, Katie is definitely the person 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: to listen to when it comes to chasing down and 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: achieving your goals. So if you're looking to create any 22 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: sort of a change in your life, I can guarantee 23 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: you that this chat with Katie will arm you with 24 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: a ton of practical ways to make change happen. My 25 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: name is doctor Amantha Imbach. I'm an organizational psychologist and 26 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is 27 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: how I work a show about how to help you 28 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: do your best work. Over the Christmas break, I read 29 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: a ton of books, but my favorite book by far 30 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: was Katie's book How to Change, which is why I 31 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: reached out Aha to come on this shart. And interestingly, 32 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: Katie started writing this book at the same time she 33 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: became homeowner. So was that timing just a happy coincidence 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: or was it something more deliberate. 35 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: I really really use fresh starts in my life to 36 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: motivate new things. And it's something I've studied, and I 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: studied it because I did it, and then I do 38 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: it more because. 39 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: I've studied it. 40 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: So fresh starts are these moments when we feel like 41 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: we're turning the page on a new chapter because something 42 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: momentous has happened, something that feels like it brackets time 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: for us. So it could be something like celebrating a 44 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: birthday or starting a new job. It could be the 45 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: celebration of a new year. Even the start of a 46 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: new week actually can be a fresh start or the 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: start of a new month. So these are dates in 48 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: our lives that they feel like they're offering us a 49 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: new beginning, and because of that, we tend to be 50 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: more motivated to pursue new goals at fresh start moments. 51 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: So we've shown this and data set after data set 52 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: from when people search for the term diet on Google 53 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: to when they visit the gym at the highest frequency, 54 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: to when they set goals about everything from their finances 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: to their health to their environment. So it's a really 56 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: wide ranging phenomenon, but for me, it's come up in 57 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: particular at moments in life that really feel like transition points. 58 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: They laid me to step back and think big picture. 59 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: And when I bought a new home and was thinking 60 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: about this big change that my family was about to 61 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: make moving from an apartment to our first physical house, 62 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: it felt like a good time to think about what 63 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: was the big new project I wanted to take on 64 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: with this move, and I decided I'd been thinking about 65 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: writing a book for years, I realized this was a 66 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 2: perfect moment to begin. 67 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: Now. I've heard that a goal that you've been working 68 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: on in twenty twenty two is to stay off your 69 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: phone or computer when you're with your six year old son. 70 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about that and how you 71 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: sort of pursuing that goal? 72 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. In fact, writing a book did not help 73 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: with this because so much, especially in the well, especially 74 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: in this era, right when I haven't been able to 75 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: do so many in person events. A lot of the 76 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: promotion for the book was in the digital world, from 77 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: going on podcasts to posting on social media, and that 78 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: I think became an even sort of bigger time sink 79 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 2: than it was before, and it built some bad habits 80 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: that I was definitely ready to get rid of with 81 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: the start of the new year, and that opportunity for 82 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: a little boost and motivation, and in particular, I should 83 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: be present when I'm around my son as opposed to 84 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: oggling whatever the latest meme is on social media. So 85 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: he gets home right around dinner time and we don't 86 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: have that much time together. We only have a couple 87 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: of hours before his bedtime, and mine year's resolution was 88 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 2: to spend that time without my phone, without my computer, 89 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: fully engaged with him, and it's been great. It's actually 90 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: going quite well, you know. I you know, I wouldn't 91 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: give myself an A plus. I'd probably give myself an 92 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: A minus. There's been a little. 93 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: Little bit just there always is, but. 94 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: Mostly I'm using what I'd call a commitment device, which 95 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: is that I leave my phone upstairs and in my office, 96 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 2: and so when I'm downstairs with him, I don't I 97 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 2: have to, you know, literally physically get up go up 98 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: the stairs to find it, to track it down. And 99 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 2: that makes it hard enough. There's enough of a barrier 100 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: between me and the temptation that I don't mindlessly pick 101 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: it up and engage when I should be fully focused 102 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: on him. And it's been really nice to have dinners 103 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: that have no interruptions and to have our family time 104 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: without me, you know, wondering about what's the latest work 105 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: email I need to attend to. 106 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: And can you explain exactly what a commitment device is 107 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: and how you landed on keeping your phone in a 108 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: completely separate area of the house as the one that 109 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: was going to help you change your behavior? Yeah? Absolutely so. 110 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 2: Commitment devices are sort of counterintuitive. They're tools that constrain 111 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: our future behavior so we won't fall prey to temptation. 112 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: And we're really used to other people imposing these kinds 113 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 2: of rules or sanctions on us for bad behavior. 114 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: Right. 115 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: Think about the thread of a speeding ticket. If you 116 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: go too fast, you might be tempted to speed, but 117 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: you know you might get fined, or a restriction on 118 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,119 Speaker 2: some recreational drug that you might be tempted to use 119 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: if it weren't illegal and you weren't worried that you 120 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 2: could get in huge trouble. So those are the kinds 121 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 2: of restrictions and finds that we're used to. We're used 122 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: to other people imposing them on us. What's funny about 123 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 2: a commitment device is it's you imposing those kinds of 124 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: restrictions on yourself in service of a higher level goal 125 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 2: and with an acknowledgment that if you don't take some 126 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: action to restrict yourself, you might end up making decisions 127 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: you'll later regret. So an example of a commitment device 128 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: that I just I would be leaving my phone upstairs. 129 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: Now I've imposed a cost on myself. It's not a 130 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: cost like a speeding ticket. It's a cost of you know, 131 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: walking up the stairs. It's a little bit of a 132 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: hassle factor in order to actually access my temptation, So 133 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: it's a very minor commitment device. More extreme ones involve 134 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: things like putting money on the line that you'll have 135 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: to forfeit if you fail to achieve a goal, like 136 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: you know, a twenty dollars fine every week if you 137 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: eat more than one meal that involves French fries or 138 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: something along these lines. Then you can define a reverree 139 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: who will hold you accountable to this, And there's websites 140 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: that will literally take your money if you fail to 141 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: achieve these kinds of goals, So you can set them 142 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: up in all different ways, and research has shown they're 143 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: actually very effective tools for helping us achieve more because 144 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: they prevent us from giving into temptation as easily. They 145 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: make it more costly in the moment to give into 146 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: those tugs. 147 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: And how that At work? Are there any behaviors that 148 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: you've tried to change with you've used commitment devices like 149 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: in the less fuse? 150 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I use commitment devices constantly at work, and 151 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: we all do. Actually we just probably wouldn't realize that 152 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: they were commitment devices. So every time you promise a 153 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: colleague something by a deadline, you're creating a commitment device. 154 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: Right If there wasn't literally a deadline beforehand, and you 155 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: say I'm going to get that to you by Friday, 156 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: that is a commitment device, because now this person's going 157 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: to be disappointed in you if you don't actually follow through. 158 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: By giving yourself a deadline, you have made it harder 159 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: to procrastinate on this task, and you've made it so 160 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 2: someone's going to hold you accountable for executing, and you'll 161 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: feel a little shame if you don't actually get it 162 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 2: in by Friday. So every deadline we set that isn't required, 163 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: those deadlines are commitment devices. Every time that we set 164 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 2: aside a block of time to work on something, right, 165 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: you put something on your calendar that isn't just a 166 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 2: phone call or some other kind of meeting. You block 167 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: time on your calendar and say you know this is 168 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: tected time for purpose X. That's also a commitment device, 169 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: because now you're going to feel a little paying of 170 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: shame if you don't accomplish whatever task it is you 171 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: set out to accomplish for yourself in that time. You've 172 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: created boundaries around it. And you've created a sense of 173 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: stronger commitment to it. These are a weak examples of 174 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: commitment device right there. They pay in comparison to putting 175 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: thousands of dollars on the line, for instance, if you 176 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: fail to achieve some specific goal. But they can be 177 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: very useful and I use them frequently. I'm frequently block time. 178 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: I always promise people things by a certain deadline in 179 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: order to make sure that I have a clear goal, 180 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 2: even if it's a task that I could put off, 181 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 2: and definitely if it's something that I want to prioritize 182 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: and get done, I choose a date by which I 183 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: promise it to a person. 184 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: That's funny. I've recently started saying to my team, who 185 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: were occasionally saying, Amantha, I'm still whiting fore you to 186 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: respond to that email that I said several weeks ago. 187 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, just give me a deadline, Just give me 188 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: a Fike deadline, and then I will get it done. 189 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: Sorry out exactly. Yeah, it just it's so effective. Now. 190 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: There are so many different strategies in how to change 191 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: and I'd love to know when you're writing the book 192 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: which of the strategies impacted the way you work the most. 193 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: Or do you find the most powerful Let's see. 194 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: I think probably the most important in terms of the 195 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: way I work is the research that's been done on 196 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: social norms and conformity, or how the people around us 197 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: shape our productivity, our happiness, and our behavior more generally. 198 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: And I think recognizing that and recognizing that I could 199 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: be thoughtful about how I constructed the teams that I 200 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: work with and how I learned from the people who 201 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 2: are around me has been one of the most important 202 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: things to my work as an academic. It's an unusual 203 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 2: profession that you have the opportunity to create your own 204 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: team every time you start a project. So in most 205 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: signes of work there's some more constraints, but in academia, 206 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: you essentially it's like a little startup company. Every time 207 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 2: you have a hypothesis, you want to go out and 208 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: test and you get to decide who am I going 209 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: to recruit to work on this startup project with me? 210 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: And so I have been very thoughtful and careful about 211 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 2: the people who I invite to collaborate with me, with 212 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: a recognition of what they would bring to not only 213 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 2: in terms of ideas and background and knowledge that they 214 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: would bring to a collaboration, but what they would help 215 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: me accomplish as a person with developmental goals. And I 216 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: try to work with other people who stretch me and 217 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: who teach me new skills and who I love being around, 218 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 2: because I know that fun is really important to productivity, 219 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: and if you enjoy the work you're doing, it turns 220 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 2: out that you can be much more effective and you'll 221 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 2: persist much longer on difficult goals. So I found that 222 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: the fund can be social and that working with people 223 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: who I really enjoy makes me love my work and 224 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: persist longer. And I also use this tool that Angela Duckworth, 225 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 2: who's one of the most fun people to work with, 226 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: a best selling author of Grit and a frequent collaborator 227 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: of mine, who maybe sort of best personifies this sort 228 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: of part of my life and choosing her as a 229 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: frequent collaborator has been a wonderful experience. But she and 230 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: I wrote about something we call copy and paste, which 231 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: we have both done with each other's lives, which is, 232 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: there's someone who you are spending time with who is 233 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: pushing towards a similar goal, and often we're not very 234 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: deliberate about trying to figure out what are the things 235 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 2: that they're doing that are working that we could emulate. 236 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: But when we gave people in one research study a 237 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: little nudge to go find someone with a shared goal 238 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: who was actually doing better at achieving it and ask 239 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: them what are they you know, what are some of 240 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: their strategies, and then choose one to copy, people ended 241 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: up doing a lot better than when we just said, 242 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: you know, go make a plan, go try to figure 243 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 2: out a way to get better. Or when we them 244 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 2: lists of hacks that other people had generated, it was 245 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: better to go find someone in your social network, someone 246 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: who was close to you, who you could emulate, than 247 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: to get sort of arbitrarily collected hacks or to just 248 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: try to make a plan in isolation. Because other people 249 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: know so much that's context relevant for you. Write someone 250 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 2: else who's in your zip code, in your social network, 251 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: who's also trying to run a marathon or write a book. 252 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: They have a lot of the same pressures constraints, and 253 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: once you start deliberately trying to learn from them, you 254 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: can get a lot farther. 255 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: So tell me, what what is some things that you've 256 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: copied and pasted from Angela and Hashei Wicks. 257 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, one of my favorites, and it's sort of 258 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 2: embarrassing that I hadn't figured this out sooner. But Angela 259 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: and I both live in downtown Philadelphia, and we commute 260 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: on foot to the university where we work, and you know, 261 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 2: we neither of us even had cars, I think when 262 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 2: we first started working together, all of our and there's 263 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: lots of time spent walking across campus to meetings. And 264 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: what Angela had figured out in life, which somehow I hadn't, 265 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 2: is that every one of those commutes, every one of 266 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: those fifteen twenty thirty minute walks, is actually an opportunity 267 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: to take a meeting by phone that would otherwise occupy 268 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: time when you could be writing a manuscript or doing 269 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: something else productive at your desk. So she always combined 270 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: her commutes with those kinds of phone conversations somebody a 271 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: reporter who wanted to ask some questions, a student who 272 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 2: wanted some advice, and it didn't need to be a 273 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: face to face conversation. So she never wasted those walks. 274 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: Whereas you know, and it's not that it's wasted, right, 275 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: because you might be having thoughts and so on, But 276 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: there was a lot of time in my day that 277 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 2: involved commuting, since I walked to and from the campus 278 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: and back and forth across it, and some of that 279 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: getting consuming it with these kinds of calls so valuable. 280 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 2: So I started doing that immediately after I noticed her 281 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: doing it. One day, she had actually taken a call 282 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: on a commute to meet with me, and she was explaining, oh, yeah, 283 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 2: I always do this, and I was like. 284 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: That is so smart. 285 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: I cannot believe I haven't been combining these things. And 286 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: it opened up a huge amount of time on my 287 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: calendar for doing deeper work at my desk. 288 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: What else have you copy and pasted from Angela? Let's see. 289 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: Another example of something that I think I've copied and 290 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: pasted from Angela is that whenever she is working on 291 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: a new project, she actually goes to the sort of 292 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 2: world expert and tries to just have a conversation. So 293 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: there's a lot of conversation copying. I used to just 294 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: you know, try to read all the papers and ingest 295 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: all the information and hope that I would be able 296 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: to develop the expertise. I still do that, but she's 297 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: so wise to reach out because the person who's the 298 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 2: expert on this, you know, it's flattering to hear from 299 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 2: someone else that they want to learn from you and 300 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: make sure they're getting the science right and share a 301 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: hypothesis and pick your brain for fifteen minutes, and they 302 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: can combine it with a walk across campus, so they're 303 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: normally delighted to say yes. And you can get such 304 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: deep insight from someone who's truly the expert on a 305 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: topic when you're a newbie. That's better than what you'd 306 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: get if you just tried to read everything they've written, 307 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: because there's some subtlety that they'll pick up on and 308 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: whatever it is you're up to. So she really taught 309 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 2: me to pick up the phone or make that ask 310 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,479 Speaker 2: to have more conversations with people who have the expertise 311 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: that's necessary than I was before. So I do that 312 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: a lot more now in my work now. 313 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: I loved the forward that Angela wrote in How to Change, 314 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: And I must say I was excited to read How 315 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: to Change before I got the book, because I felt 316 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: like it I'd heard quite a few people talk about it. 317 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: But then I read the forward that she wrote, and 318 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm even more excited to 319 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: read the book now. And one of the things she 320 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: wrote about you is She said that you're really good 321 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: at quickly learning how to do things more efficiently, and 322 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: I'd love to know some examples of things that you've 323 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: made more or efficient and how you did it well. 324 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: One thing both Angela and I love is efficiency, So 325 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 2: there there's no surprise maybe that you know, we both 326 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 2: copied and pasted things that the other was doing more 327 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 2: efficiently than we were, and I think we've gotten more 328 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: efficient in the process. One thing that I think has 329 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 2: served me really well is an obsession with templates, like 330 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: never write the same email twice if you're going to 331 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: say the same thing, for instance. So I have a 332 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: huge document filled with template responses, which isn't to say 333 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 2: that they wouldn't be personalized, but to the kinds of 334 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: emails I get a lot. Right, A student looking for 335 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: advice on companies where they could work if they're interested 336 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: in behavioral science. Oh, I have a template for that 337 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: student wanting research assistant options. Someone reaching out and interested 338 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 2: in you know, whether or not I'm taking PhD students 339 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,719 Speaker 2: next year. Someone would like to be a guest on 340 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: my podcast. Someone who's enthusiastic about book and looking for 341 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: more places to find advice. So there are all sorts 342 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: of emails that as a professor you get at a 343 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: high frequency, and once you start to recognize what those 344 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,959 Speaker 2: are and see patterns, you can instead of creating something 345 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: new from scratch, you can start from a template. I 346 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 2: sort of think of a lot of what we do 347 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: in life as filling in mad libs, and I think 348 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 2: once you see things that way, you can do less 349 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 2: busy work and more deep thoughtful work because you can 350 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: simplify a lot of these processes. Recommendation letters are a 351 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 2: little bit like that. For me, I have a template 352 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: for writing a student recommendation letter. Of course, lots of 353 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: tailoring is required, but there's sort of a structure that 354 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 2: can be reused time and again, and that simplifies so 355 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: much in life that you know, really doesn't require deep 356 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: thought and all the time that it would take if 357 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: you recreated the wheel from scratch. 358 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: So do you think you bring like you personally bring 359 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: a different level of consciousness to what you're doing, and 360 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: particularly when you're doing something that is repetitive, like you 361 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: aware of that in the way that you work. 362 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: That's interesting. So when you say repetitive, you mean you 363 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 2: know something that I've done four times before that. I yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. 364 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: Once I noticed that, oh I've I've gotten this kind 365 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 2: of request or had to respond to this kind of 366 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: ask previously, I'm immediately going to sort of how can 367 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: I how can I not waste bandwidth thinking the same 368 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 2: thought over and over again, but rather like make this 369 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 2: more efficient? So the fifth time that I have this 370 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 2: conversation or get this ask, there's a document to go to. 371 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, I do think that's a huge opportunity for 372 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 2: time saving for many of us, because many of us 373 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: are doing things that resemble I mean, that's how you 374 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: build expertise, right, It's like you you do the same 375 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: kind of thing over and over again. That's part of expertise. 376 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 2: But trying to be really deliberate about cutting out unnecessary 377 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: work that could just be based on templates is really important. 378 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: I think we will be back with Katie very soon 379 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: hearing about why she started a no club. Now you 380 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: have a no group. Could you tell me about this 381 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: no group? 382 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I love my no club. Yes, it 383 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: is life saving and for so many reasons. Yes, So 384 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: I have a group of it's three of us, three 385 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: women at you know, research intensive business schools, all of 386 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: whom care a lot about doing science, who care a 387 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: lot about communicating about science and being good teachers and 388 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: good citizens. We really have very aligned and similar goals. 389 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: And we learned about this research that had been done 390 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 2: by a team of economists led by Linda Babcock at 391 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: Carnegie Mellon University showing that women really struggle to say 392 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: no when asked to do what she calls non promotable tasks. 393 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 2: So these are things like organizing the office party, taking 394 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 2: notes at work, giving a talk at an event, or 395 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: sitting on a committee that won't be rewarded in any 396 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: way other than sort of appreciated because it's good citizenship. 397 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: And men and women both get these kinds of asks 398 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 2: a lot. It's part of being in any organization, and 399 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: women have a lot more trouble saying no than men. 400 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 2: They spend a lot of time on these kinds of tasks, 401 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,959 Speaker 2: and it can take away from doing things that are 402 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 2: more valued by their organizations and may prevent them from 403 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: rising to the highest levels. So we learned about this work, 404 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: and we learned that Linda and her collaborators had formed 405 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: a no club of women who would basically reach out 406 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: to each other for second opinions whenever they got an 407 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: ask that fit into this category of something that's not 408 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: part of your job description that they knew wouldn't strictly 409 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: be rewarded by the organization, but that might be worth 410 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: doing because you want to be a good citizen, you 411 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 2: want to do the right things. We thought, this is 412 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: such a great idea to have this no club, because 413 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: it turns out when we're in an outsider mode, when 414 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: we're evaluating these kinds of asks to someone else, it's 415 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: much easier and clearer for us to say objectively, oh no, 416 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 2: that's a bad use of time. And when it's insider mode, 417 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 2: you're thinking about the feelings you might hurt and the 418 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: how are you going to handle everything? So we have 419 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: this no club. We reach out to each other whenever 420 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: we get these kinds of asks, and it has been 421 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: absolutely incredible over the last oh I think it's going 422 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 2: seven years and strong now for a bunch of reasons, 423 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: but actually not all reasons I anticipated. So I know 424 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: it would be great to have these incredible women on 425 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 2: my side sort of offering consulting services and to offer 426 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 2: my own on these kinds of challenges. And then I 427 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: might free up a lot of time and help me 428 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 2: prioritize better. What I didn't fully appreciate when we created 429 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 2: this is what an amazing community it would build. Right 430 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: where these women were already friends, but they've become closer 431 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: because we see each other's struggles, were in touch regularly, 432 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: and it's become more like a support group. We actually 433 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: recently added joy Club to No Club so that we 434 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: can celebrate each other's successes, which I love so like 435 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: emails go out, they used to just have a tag 436 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 2: in front No Club and then people would respond right away. 437 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 2: But we added joy Club so we could share good 438 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 2: news with each other and celebrate it. A third thing 439 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 2: that I didn't anticipate but that I've researched and now 440 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: appreciate more thanks to that is that when we give 441 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: advice to each other, it actually ends up helping us too. 442 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 2: So I thought that would just be you know, it's reciprocity, right. 443 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: They give me advice, I give them advice. That's just 444 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: sort of the price you pay for joining this club, 445 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 2: But it's not a price. It turns out to be 446 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 2: really valuable to me. Every time I see a challenge 447 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 2: they're struggling with because first of all, I'm likely to 448 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 2: face some similar challenge and thinking through in an advance, 449 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: seeing it with that outsider perspective, I learn and I 450 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 2: build my own confidence because it's easy for me to see, oh, 451 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 2: this is the right way to think about it when 452 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: it's someone else's problem. And then when I face the 453 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: same challenge myself, I feel confident that I can tackle 454 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: it because I've seen it before. So that's Actually there's 455 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 2: research showing that advice giving improves your own confidence and competence, 456 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: which I got to be a part of, and that 457 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 2: sort of opened my eyes to the power of the 458 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 2: advice club, not only as a social support group, not 459 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: only as a way to tap into the wisdom of others, 460 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 2: but actually to build your own confidence and competence as well. 461 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: Now, when I think about you, Katie, and after reading 462 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: your book, I'm like, oh, my gosh, is she just 463 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: like this fountain of motivation? And I'm imagining, of course 464 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: you're not. You are human. So I want to know 465 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: what do you do when you're feeling flat or unmotivated? 466 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: But you have to be working towards something like how 467 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: do you pick yourself back up? 468 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Well, so first of all, I should say, Uh, 469 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: your vision of me is not very accurate. I don't 470 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 2: think I am a found of motivation. In fact, it's 471 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 2: funny I joke with lots of people that the work 472 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: I do is not so much research as it is mesearch, 473 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: because I struggle with all these challenges and it's really 474 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 2: only through you know, applying these tools from behavioral science 475 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 2: to my own life that I've been able to sort 476 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: of duct tape it all together and get things done. 477 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 2: I would not I would not be where I am 478 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 2: if it weren't for all these tools. And there's sort 479 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 2: of like two kinds of people, I think who study 480 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: motivation and behavior change and goals. I think there's one 481 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: camp who looks around the world at all the people 482 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 2: who are struggling and says, like, what's wrong? Why is 483 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: this so hard for them? This is so straightforward, that's 484 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: weird to understand, my fellow humans, I need to study 485 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 2: this topic. And then there's this other camp which I 486 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 2: fall into, which is people who have all the challenges 487 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: that like, everything feels like an uphill battle, and who realize, 488 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 2: you know, if I don't figure out some solutions, I'll 489 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 2: get nowhere. And so then we start studying this as 490 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 2: like a self help tool. So I'm definitely in that category. 491 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: I think, you know, when I'm low on motivation, I 492 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: will say I'm big on task variety and tasks switching. 493 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 2: And that's been a way I've managed my portfolio of 494 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: work really since the beginning, and I always have a 495 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: lot of different projects in different areas. I've studied everything 496 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 2: from what articles go viral on the New York Times 497 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: website to how can we improve diversity and inclusion outcomes 498 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: and organizations? To how do we get ourselves to exercise more, 499 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 2: how do we motivate vaccination, how do we help students 500 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 2: study more? So really wide range of topics I teach. 501 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: I have a podcast, I wrote a book, I have 502 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: a newsletter that I put out monthly. And that diversity 503 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: of projects makes it easy for me when I'm really 504 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: feeling low motivation on one thing to get a bit 505 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: of a fresh in a clean slate by switching and 506 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: doing something else, even for an hour, just to get 507 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 2: my excitement back. And I find I get a lot 508 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: of value from just taking a little bit of distance 509 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 2: from something that I'm struggling with that I'm not enjoying, 510 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 2: giving myself a break to be productive on something else briefly, 511 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,479 Speaker 2: and then coming back to it. Often I can find 512 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 2: my old enthusiasm. And of course sometimes you can't take 513 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 2: a break and you just have to grind right through, 514 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: and you know, deadlines and commitments to others. You know, 515 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 2: I promised it by this time, knowing that there's a 516 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: real cost if I don't come through, tends to loom 517 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 2: large enough that I'll get things done when I have 518 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: to get them done. But the variety helps me a lot. 519 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that interesting that you think about the 520 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: task switching as almost like a medi fresh start, Like 521 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: I've never thought about that before in that context. But 522 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: I know with my own work I try to block out. 523 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: It's of about two or three sixty to ninety minutes 524 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: sprints for deep work the morning, and they will never 525 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: be on the same thing. Like I'm just at the 526 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: tail end of the writing a book process and it's 527 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: being released in July. But when I was congratulations, thank you, 528 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: it's very excited, and just got the proofs in the 529 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: mail yesterday. Well that is exciting, very exciting, feels real. 530 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: But I remember when I was writing it, I like, 531 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: there's no way I could do three sprints in a 532 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: row on the book, because it would just I would 533 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: have lost motivation. So yeah, I'm really I'm encouraged to 534 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: hear that this is like a way to kind of 535 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: pick yourself up when you are lacking in motivation or 536 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: need a bit of a spark when you're working. What 537 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: about failure? How do you deal with failure and setbacks? 538 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. 539 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: You know. 540 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 2: I've been really influenced and inspired by Carol dwax amusing 541 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: research on the importance of having a growth mindset, and 542 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: I do feel that that is something I've really adopted 543 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: throughout my career, throughout my life. So a growth mindset 544 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: is the idea that we aren't fixed in our capability, 545 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 2: whether it's our intelligence or you know, our skills as 546 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: a parent or as a teacher, or whatever it is 547 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 2: you're trying to excel in almost everything, there's an element 548 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 2: of effort and growth that's possible through that effort. That 549 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 2: so if you have that mindset, when you experience a failure, 550 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: you can interpret it as an opportunity to learn and grow. 551 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: So there's another mindset that a lot of us walk 552 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 2: around with, which is a fixed mindset where you say 553 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: you know, anything that goes wrong, it's diagnostic. It tells 554 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: me what I'm capable of, and I have this fixed ability, 555 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: and if something goes wrong, it's just telling me, yep, 556 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: I'm not that capable. I'm not going to be able 557 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 2: to do this. I think having a growth mindset and 558 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: being really deliberate about that in the things you do 559 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 2: and saying what does this failure teach me? How can 560 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 2: I grow and learn from it, as opposed to just 561 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: letting it feel terrible and thank god, I'm just not 562 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: good enough. The more you can deliberately adopt a growth mindset, 563 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 2: the better. And you know, this is a big part 564 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: of being an academic. We get a ton of critical feedback. 565 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: The process of publishing a scientific article is basically designed 566 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 2: to torture your soul because you send a paper, you know, 567 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: something that you've worked on for years that reflects all 568 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 2: your effort and energy towards understanding this specific hypothesis and 569 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: what's true about and what's not. You send it out 570 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: to a journal. Two or three peers read it and 571 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 2: basically try to rip it apart. They send back a 572 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 2: list of all the things that are wrong with it. 573 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 2: Very rarely do they offer any praise. It's almost exclusively 574 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 2: this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Most 575 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,719 Speaker 2: of the time your paper is rejected. Occasionally it's not rejected, 576 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 2: but it's not accepted. They say it's They never say 577 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 2: it's good enough. They say, well, there are all these flaws. 578 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: If you could. 579 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: Address all of them, maybe that will actually publish it. 580 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: So it was such a daunting, miserable experience the first 581 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: time that happened. But I realized if I sort of 582 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: changed my mindset and tried to adopt a growth mindset 583 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: and see all the ways that this criticism could help 584 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 2: me grow and become better, so the next time I 585 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: wrote a research article, I wouldn't make these mistakes and 586 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 2: so that this article could have a bigger impact and 587 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: be better. That would be more fun, highly functional. And 588 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 2: it's true because I really am learning every time I 589 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: get that criticism, and I can grow and get better, 590 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: and that helps me so much in dealing with all 591 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: of life's failures. Is trying to adopt that attitude, and 592 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 2: it's made me a much better scientist. 593 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: Something I was interested in the context of goal setting 594 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: because often goals like we talk about how they need 595 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: to be concrete and measurable, And I was wondering, how 596 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: do you approach that when it's about a soft skill 597 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: like being a better communicata or getting better like improving 598 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: your presentation skills? How do you set goals for those 599 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: softer kind of things that how to measure? 600 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, even when it's a soft skill, I think that 601 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 2: it can be really clear once you sit down and 602 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 2: make a plan that you're going to have a series 603 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 2: of action steps you need to take to achieve that 604 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: long run goal. So I'll give you an example. I 605 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 2: had a student who was a non native English speaker 606 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 2: who really wanted to improve so she could be a 607 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 2: fantastic presenter, a fantastic communicator, which is important as a 608 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: scientist in our area in particular. And you know, we 609 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: talked a lot and this was these were her goals, 610 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 2: but we talked a lot about how is she going 611 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 2: to do that? And she didn't just decide I'm going 612 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 2: to try harder. We came up with a series of 613 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: things that we thought would be useful inputs to that. 614 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: They included things like going to toast Masters weekly, watching 615 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: American TV shows that covered topics that were actually related 616 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: to her research, So she was interested in medical decision making. 617 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 2: Gray's Anatomy went on the nightly watch list. She was 618 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: going to sign up to teach a class over the summer. 619 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: So it was a list of action steps that would 620 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: get to that goal of a soft skill. And then 621 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 2: she had the weekly goals. You know, is she watching 622 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: Gray's Anatomy every night and a half an hour? No, 623 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 2: poor thing? Is she attending her weekly toastmasters? Is she 624 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: presenting it as many conferences for instance, as possible? What 625 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 2: is she submitted to this month? Is she preparing for 626 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: her summer teaching? So I think even with soft skills, 627 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: it's really it's important to break down. Okay, that's your 628 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: long term goal, but what are the action steps that 629 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 2: take you closer to it? And what's the weekly or 630 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: daily action you can commit to pursuing in order to 631 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 2: make some progress on that big overarching goal. 632 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: Now, health and fitness is an area where I feel 633 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: like so many people set goals and give you some 634 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: interesting tactics in your own life. To those girls, can 635 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: you can you tell me sort of like, what have 636 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: been the most effective strategies you've used there? Yeah? 637 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 2: My number one has a lot to do with what 638 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: we've been talking about on how important it is to 639 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 2: make things that might feel like an uphill battle more fun. 640 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 2: And so I used a tool that I've since studied 641 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 2: that I call temptation bundling to get myself to exercise regularly. 642 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: When I was a graduate student, and my problem specifically 643 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: was I would come home from a long day of 644 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: classes totally exhausted, and all I wanted to do was, 645 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 2: you know, binge, watch low brow TV, or curl up 646 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 2: on the couch with a juicy page churner novel. I 647 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: wanted indulgent entertainment. I didn't want to do my problem sets, 648 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: and I really didn't want to go to the gym, 649 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 2: which I knew I should do because exercise was really 650 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: important for my health and well being and productivity frankly, 651 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 2: but it felt like a chore at the end of 652 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: a long day. So I have this idea, which was, 653 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 2: what if I only let myself indulge in this sort 654 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 2: of lowbrow entertainment while I'm at the gym. Could I 655 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 2: create that rule for myself and motivate myself that way 656 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 2: to get up off the couch and head to the 657 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 2: gym before I hit the books again And get my 658 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: homework done, and I found that I was able to 659 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: motivate myself that way, so I called it temptation bundling. 660 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 2: I got into audiobooks, though I know lots of people 661 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 2: do it with TV and find that useful. Is a 662 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 2: little too much sensory input for me, But I would 663 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: listen to lowbrow audio books like the Alex Cross series 664 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 2: or the Twilight books, and Harry Potter was the highbrow 665 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 2: on my list, and I, you know, I couldn't wait 666 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 2: to hear what happened next to Voldemort or you know, 667 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 2: whatever characters were involved in this. It would pull me 668 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 2: to the gym at the end of a long day. 669 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 2: I looked forward to those workouts. The time would fly 670 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 2: by while I was there because I'm so engrossed in 671 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 2: the story. And then afterwards I felt great. I came home, 672 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 2: I was rejuvenated, I'd had my rest from you know, 673 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 2: doing math, and I was ready to sit down and 674 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 2: focus on the work I needed to do that evening. 675 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 2: So for me, it was this totally magical experience of 676 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 2: combining and indulgence with what felt like a chore and 677 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 2: changing the nature of the chore into something that was 678 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 2: a source of pleasure in my life, and I've since 679 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: studied temptation buddling and show that it's not just for me, 680 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 2: it helps other people when you link these sources of pleasure, 681 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 2: these sources of temptation and only let yourself do it 682 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 2: when you're say, at the gym. You can do it 683 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 2: in other parts of life too, right, only letting yourself 684 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,959 Speaker 2: listen to a favorite podcast with household chores, or open 685 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 2: a favorite bottle of wine when you're cooking a fresh 686 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 2: meal for your family. I even had a student who 687 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 2: told me she only let herself burn her favorite scented 688 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 2: candles when she was working on her dissertation, so she 689 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 2: had something that made it really fun. So and you know, 690 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 2: I don't know if that would have worked for me, frankly, 691 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: but if you're into the sense, maybe that can be 692 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 2: for you. 693 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love temptation bundling, and like you, I've been 694 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: doing it for years. I'm exactly the same with exercise, 695 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: where I'm not a huge amount of reality TV, but 696 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: I love The Bachelor, the US Bachelor specifically. It is 697 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: just the most trashiest fun ever and I feel so 698 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: guilty watching it if I am like just on the 699 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: couch so so how I get through seasons very slowly 700 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: is when I'm on the exercise bike, and the same 701 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: for my gym workouts. Like, there's one podcast that I 702 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: love is Mama Mia out Loud, but it has nothing 703 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: to do with my work. I'm not really learning something 704 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: that I'm going to be able to apply in my career, 705 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: so I feel slightly guilty listening to it, but then 706 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: I don't. It just brings pure joy when I'm doing 707 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: weight training, and I just I love that strategy so much. 708 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: Now for people that want to connect with you, and 709 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 1: obviously everyone needs to just go out and buy How 710 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: to Change because it is such a brilliant, brilliant book. 711 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: What are otherwise that people can connect with you, Katie? 712 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Well, I have a podcast called Choiceology that 713 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 2: listeners might find fun. It's on a very different topic 714 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 2: than this, but we talk about behavioral biases that can 715 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 2: lead you to make bad decisions and you're with your 716 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 2: finances or actually in any part of your life, and 717 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: so people might enjoy listening to that. And then I 718 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: have a website which is Katiemilkman dot com. So Katie 719 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 2: with a why like Katie Perry, if that helps. Grateful 720 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 2: to her for popularizing the spelling and confusing fewer people. 721 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 2: And you can find you know, my research papers there. 722 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 2: You can sign up for my newsletter, Milkman Delivers, and 723 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 2: I'm on Twitter and Instagram and LinkedIn as Katie Milkman's 724 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 2: you can follow me on any of those channels too. 725 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: I'll put links to all that in the show notes. Katie. 726 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: It's just made an absolute privilege to spend the last 727 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: hour with you, so thank you so much for your 728 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: time and all the work that you're putting out into 729 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: the world. 730 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: Oh, likewise, thank you so much for having me. This 731 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 2: was a real treat. I really appreciate you helping me 732 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 2: spread the word about science that can help us be 733 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: more productive and a chief our calls. 734 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed my chat with Katie and are 735 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: feeling inspired to go and create some change in your life. 736 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: I know for me, I'm going to double down on 737 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: temptation bundling, which is something that I do with exercise, 738 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: but I'm now thinking, hm, how can I do that 739 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: in other aspects of my life? And if you're enjoying 740 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: how I work, maybe you might want to leave a 741 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,359 Speaker 1: review for the show you can do that if you're 742 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: listening in Apple podcasts, just by clicking on the stars 743 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: or writing a comment. How I Work is produced by 744 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The producer 745 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: for this episode was Liam Ridan, and thank you to 746 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: Martin Nimba who does the audio mix for every episode 747 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: and makes it all sound so much better than it 748 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: would have otherwise. See you next time.