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Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily This is the Daily

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Speaker 1: ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Daily os. I'm emma.

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Speaker 1: During this summer break, we're taking you on a stroll

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Speaker 1: down memory lane with a rotation of our best and

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Speaker 1: most interesting deep dives from twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: How on earth did we pick just a few?

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Speaker 1: We've somehow managed from tax to online bots and everything

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Speaker 1: in between. We've got you sorted for your summer road trip,

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Speaker 1: whatever else you might be doing over the break.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to tda's summer series. This year, we got some.

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Speaker 1: New data on loneliness and in particular young Australians and

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Speaker 1: loneliness as.

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Speaker 2: It relates to them.

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Speaker 1: According to the latest Household Income and Labor Dynamics in

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Speaker 1: Australia report, the HILDA Report, young Ozzies are more likely

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Speaker 1: to experience loneliness and psychological distress than any other age group. Now,

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Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of this data, we chatted

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Speaker 1: to one of the experts who's been working on the

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Speaker 1: Hilda project for years and who can help us understand

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Speaker 1: more about what's causing this loneliness epidemic. This was a

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Speaker 1: really insightful chat. I think we hear a lot about

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Speaker 1: loneliness in the media, particularly in a post COVID world,

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Speaker 1: but it was so so fascinating to speak to a professor,

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Speaker 1: Professor Roger Wilkins, at the heart of this data gathering

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Speaker 1: to understand the trends, his learnings, and what it might

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Speaker 1: mean about the future. Here's my chat with Professor Roger Wilkins.

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Speaker 1: We're talking today about the Hilda Survey. But to start

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Speaker 1: off with, for those of us maybe less familiar with

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Speaker 1: the survey and what it's all about, can you give

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Speaker 1: me a sense of how it works, because it's quite

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Speaker 1: a remarkable scope, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So HILDA stands for the Household Income and Labor Dynamics

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Speaker 4: in Australia study. So we started back in two thousand

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Speaker 4: and one and randomly selected thirteen thousand people from around

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Speaker 4: the country and interviewed them and then we've been going

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Speaker 4: back to them every year ever since, so the last

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Speaker 4: we're in our twenty fourth year of doing this now

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Speaker 4: and asking them about all aspects of life in Australia,

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Speaker 4: really their household and family life, their health and well being,

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Speaker 4: their employment, their incomes, their wealth. The other thing though

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Speaker 4: we do is that we follow the children of the

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Speaker 4: original response. If they have any children, we start following them,

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Speaker 4: and then we'll follow their children. So you really get

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Speaker 4: the Hilda gene when you're selected into our sample, and

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Speaker 4: you pass it on to your kids, and hopefully if

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Speaker 4: Hilda is still going in one hundred years time, we'll

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Speaker 4: have this extraordinarily rich intergenerational history for Australia.

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Speaker 1: What's the ask of that sample size? How much do

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Speaker 1: they have to communicate? How in depth is the survey

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Speaker 1: we have?

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Speaker 4: We've call a household questionnaire where that's usually around about

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Speaker 4: ten minutes. It's asked of one how member, and then

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Speaker 4: everyone over fifteen years of age is interviewed for about

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Speaker 4: thirty five forty minutes, and then they have a what

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Speaker 4: we call a self completion QUESTIONNARE, which can be either

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Speaker 4: pen and paper or they can do that online and

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Speaker 4: that usually takes at least half an hour as well,

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Speaker 4: and so that's an annual event. It's a bit like

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Speaker 4: doing your taxes. It just comes around every year. And

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of people they recognize the importance

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Speaker 4: of the study and that each of them represent twelve

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Speaker 4: hundred other people living in Australia. And I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of people just do it out of a sense

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Speaker 4: of a civic duty.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to think it's probably a lot less arduous

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Speaker 1: than tax time. I think you're cutting yourself short of

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Speaker 1: it there. In terms of the latest findings, we've had

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Speaker 1: a report out this month. What were the big standouts

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Speaker 1: from the latest survey?

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Speaker 4: Probably the most concerning thing to come out of the

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Speaker 4: study is the rise in a measure of what we

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Speaker 4: call psychological distress, where you are feeling hopeless.

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Speaker 3: Or worthless or depressed, those sorts of things.

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Speaker 4: And on this measure we've seen a real substantial rise

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Speaker 4: since around about twenty eleven, and it's been particularly concentrated

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Speaker 4: amongst teenagers and people in their early twenties, where we've

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Speaker 4: had more than a doubling of the prevalence. We've now

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Speaker 4: got about forty percent of people in the fifteen to

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Speaker 4: twenty four age range that are in psychological distress. All

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Speaker 4: this rise has happened since twenty eleven. It did accelerate

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Speaker 4: a bit during COVID, which is perhaps unsurprising. Wasn't a

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Speaker 4: great time to be a young person in Australia During

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Speaker 4: the first couple of years of lockdowns and restrictions on

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Speaker 4: travel and the like. But it's a longer running trend

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Speaker 4: than that, and we don't exactly know why it's growing.

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Speaker 4: But I think you'd have to say social media would

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Speaker 4: be pretty strongly implicated because it's the rise in social

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Speaker 4: media use really correlates very closely with this rise in

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Speaker 4: psychological distress. And we also see that the groups who

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Speaker 4: have the biggest increases in psychological distress prevalence are also

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Speaker 4: the ones that had the biggest increase in social media use.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about another prevalent issue for

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Speaker 1: young people, loneliness. It's a conversation we've been having more

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Speaker 1: and more, especially on the other side of COVID. What

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Speaker 1: did the survey learn about young people and loneliness most recently.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, traditionally he would have had shown that it

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Speaker 4: was older people who were tended to be more lonely,

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Speaker 4: and that's sort of consistent with particularly single older people

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Speaker 4: who are maybe their partner has died, they're a widow

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Speaker 4: or widower. And what we've actually seen over the last

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Speaker 4: twenty plus years is decline in loneliness amongst older people

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Speaker 4: in the community, which is obviously a heartening development, but

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Speaker 4: again encountering.

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Speaker 3: That is, we've actually seen it going up amongst young people.

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Speaker 4: It was only edging up slowly up until COVID hit,

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Speaker 4: but then in the first two years of the pandemic

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Speaker 4: it shot up dramatically fifteen to twenty four year old

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Speaker 4: and not really much for other age groups.

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Speaker 3: I think that speaks a lot to the fact.

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Speaker 4: That the pandemic and the restrictions that a company have

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Speaker 4: had a lot more adverse impacts on young people than

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Speaker 4: they did on older people. I think that's because their

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Speaker 4: social interaction is much more outside of the home than

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Speaker 4: it is for other people. Particularly if you're living with

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Speaker 4: a partner. Much of your social interaction is with your partner,

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Speaker 4: and so lockdowns and restrictions on travel and so on

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Speaker 4: didn't interfere with that, whereas for people in their late

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Speaker 4: teens and early twenties, the restrictions were much more punitive.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that younger group hasn't been able

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Speaker 1: to bounce back in this area, perhaps as other age

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Speaker 1: groups have on the other side of COVID.

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Speaker 4: It is a concern that they may not have rebounded

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Speaker 4: as quickly, and I guess because those formative links social

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Speaker 4: networks perhaps got broken during COVID, you know, they got

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Speaker 4: severn or they didn't form during COVID, and that could

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Speaker 4: have permanent, sort of scarring type effects on the social

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Speaker 4: lives of many young people. Obviously not all young people,

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Speaker 4: but perhaps a significant number of them, and that would

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Speaker 4: be the fear. I suppose that you could get this

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Speaker 4: long tail of adverse effects.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of young people and newer phenomenons, we had vaping data,

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Speaker 1: I think for the first time in this Hilda report.

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Speaker 1: What did you learn about the use of vapes?

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Speaker 3: Unsurprisingly that vape use is quite highly prevalent in the community,

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Speaker 3: at least.

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Speaker 4: Prior to the beginning of this year the government moved

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Speaker 4: to ban vapes other than via a medical prescription. This

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Speaker 4: data relates to the period before that legislation was passed.

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Speaker 4: It's mostly an activity associated with young people, so I

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Speaker 4: think we're sort of around a third of young people

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Speaker 4: have at least tried vaping. It sort of suggests that

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Speaker 4: perhaps the progress we thought we'd made on reducing nicotine

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Speaker 4: to pair and that's in the form of smoking, has

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Speaker 4: been a little bit undone by the rise of vaping.

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Speaker 3: Cost has probably been a big factor.

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Speaker 4: I think it's a lot cheaper or at least it

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Speaker 4: was a lot cheaper to vape than it was to smoke,

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Speaker 4: and it's.

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Speaker 3: Not as smelly as either, so that might also be

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Speaker 3: an attractive feature for many people.

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Speaker 1: What about financial stability security?

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Speaker 2: What did this latest.

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Speaker 1: Report tell us about money and young people? You know,

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Speaker 1: we're hearing over and over again about the growing pressures

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Speaker 1: of cost of living, everyone's feeling it. What did we

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Speaker 1: learn this time around.

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Speaker 4: We've seen I guess there's something of a continuation of

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Speaker 4: a trend where more and more young adults are staying

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Speaker 4: living with the parents, and I think that is very

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Speaker 4: much driven by cost of living consideration that a particularly

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Speaker 4: difficulty in getting into the housing market. But also it

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Speaker 4: is taking longer to get established in your career. So

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Speaker 4: many people eventually get into full time work and get

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Speaker 4: on the career ladder, taking longer. They're spending more time

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Speaker 4: working casual jobs or jumping from fixed term contract to

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Speaker 4: fixed term contract and so on. So that causing people

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Speaker 4: to I think, stay in the family home longer.

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Speaker 3: So it's a little bit gloomy for young people and.

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Speaker 2: That we're used to it.

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Speaker 3: That's taken longer. But there is a positive dimension to

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Speaker 3: this as well.

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Speaker 4: And that to some extent there maybe isn't the same

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Speaker 4: pressure to get on with it as quickly as it

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Speaker 4: once was. That young people are saying.

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Speaker 3: Well, we've got you know. Our life expectancy is longer

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Speaker 3: than ever. People are retiring later than ever.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I'll just enjoy my younger years a bit more

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Speaker 4: before I get down to the serious business of adulting,

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Speaker 4: forming a family and buying a home and getting full

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Speaker 4: time work.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people will feel probably reassured

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Speaker 1: by this notion that there is an increase in young

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Speaker 1: people living at home for longer. I think since COVID,

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Speaker 1: people have maybe carried a bit of shit aim around

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Speaker 1: something like that. So I suppose talking about it, or

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Speaker 1: seeing that reflected in these numbers will probably ease a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that might be feeling maybe a little

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Speaker 1: insecure about admitting to their friends that they've gone back

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Speaker 1: to mom and dads.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 4: I think that can really help with people's ability to

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Speaker 4: cope with the adversity that they've been through, just to

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Speaker 4: know that others are in the same boat.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 1: One last question I wanted to ask you, Roger, is

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Speaker 1: about decline in marriages, but an increase in de facto relationships.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? What is a de facto relationship?

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Speaker 1: And what do we know about the rate of marriage?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I mean often it's called de facto marriage.

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Speaker 4: What it means is that you're living together with a partner,

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Speaker 4: but you're not legally married.

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Speaker 3: In the eyes of the law, you're basically treated as

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Speaker 3: equivalent to legally married.

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Speaker 4: And yes, as you said, we've had the last twenty

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Speaker 4: plus years, we've had a decline in the proportion of

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Speaker 4: adults who are legally married. It's gone down from about

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Speaker 4: fifty six percent or about fifty percent over twenty years.

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Speaker 4: Marriage is still really popular, but that's still an appreciable decline.

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Speaker 4: But it doesn't mean we're partnering less or living with

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Speaker 4: partners any less. It's just that we've had this rise

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Speaker 4: in de facto couples. And I think there's a few

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Speaker 4: things that work there. I think, firstly, just going to

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Speaker 4: what I was saying before about doing things later, there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of people in their twenties now in de

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Speaker 4: facto relationships who twenty years ago would have been legally married.

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Speaker 4: And a lot of those people in those de facto

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Speaker 4: couples will eventually get married I'll just do it later,

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Speaker 4: they'll do it.

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Speaker 3: In their thirties.

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Speaker 4: But we are seeing a rise in de facto couples

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Speaker 4: at all ages. So I think there's also a social

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Speaker 4: change here. That it used to be socially unacceptable in

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Speaker 4: many circles, at least to be living with a partner

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Speaker 4: out of wedlock, and certainly to have children out of

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Speaker 4: wedlock was frowned upon, and I think that we've got

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Speaker 4: past that to a considerable extent. There's often a lot

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Speaker 4: of expense in getting married. There's a lot of pressure

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Speaker 4: if you're going to get married, to have a big wedding,

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Speaker 4: and people might say, well, we don't really need that

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Speaker 4: piece of paper, And I think we could do something

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Speaker 4: better with that money than pour it into a wedding,

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Speaker 4: like help get a depositor on a house, for example.

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Speaker 3: In this age of.

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Speaker 4: Instagram and so on, there's possibly even greater pressure to

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Speaker 4: do a wedding in style, which makes it instagrammable, and

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Speaker 4: that then increases the expense of it and makes it

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Speaker 4: even less an attractive proposition.

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Speaker 3: So I think all those sorts of things are going on.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how much to attribute to each of

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Speaker 4: those factors, but I think they're all playing a role.

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Speaker 1: It hazard to guess that there may even be a

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Speaker 1: fair chunk of traumatized children of divorce who are taking

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Speaker 1: their time in that department.

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Speaker 4: Yes. Yeah, although the big rise in divorce was actually

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Speaker 4: in the seventies, you know, following the introduction of no

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Speaker 4: fault divorce, we're actually seeing that once people do get married,

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Speaker 4: the rate of divorce is declining amongst them, and even

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Speaker 4: in de facto couples, we've seen a decline in the

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Speaker 4: breakdown of those relationships over the last twenty years. So yes,

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Speaker 4: people maybe being a bit more cautious in the relationships

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Speaker 4: they get into that is having the benefit of those

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Speaker 4: relationship're tending to be more stable.

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Speaker 1: Now, Roger, casting your mind forward based on the trends

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Speaker 1: that you've seen this year, do you have any hot

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Speaker 1: predictions for us for next year.

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Speaker 2: Anything that you're keeping an eye on.

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Speaker 1: What are the data lovers saying?

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Speaker 4: Look, I think we're all hanging out to see just

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Speaker 4: how much this cost of living crisis, how it's playing out,

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Speaker 4: and how people have responded and dealt with that.

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Speaker 3: You know, we don't really have the data in yet.

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Speaker 4: For the full impacts of the the rise in rents,

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Speaker 4: rise in the cost of just about everything.

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Speaker 3: I think that's the thing that I'm most keen to unpeel.

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Speaker 4: How has that been played out in all different families

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Speaker 4: across Australia.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. That was fascinating.

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Speaker 3: Nice to be with you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for.

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Speaker 1: Listening to TVA's summer series. We will be back with

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Speaker 1: another best of Deep Dive tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: Until then, have a good one.

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Speaker 4: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 4: Bunelung calcotton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 4: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 4: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest

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Speaker 4: Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 4: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.