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Speaker 1: Now we know, as we've just spoken about with the

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister, Lea Finocchiaro, emergency measures have been implemented in

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Speaker 1: response to rapid and continuing surge in prison numbers. We

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Speaker 1: know that it's reached a record high those prisoner numbers

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Speaker 1: of twenty three hundred and seventy. On Friday, the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory Corrections commis Commissioner announcing six urgent actions to respond

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Speaker 1: to the crisis, as the department has statutory obligation to

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Speaker 1: receive prisoners committed or remanded into custody. Commissioner four Corrections

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Speaker 1: Matthew Varley joins me in the studio. Good morning to you, Commissioner.

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Speaker 1: Good o Katie Now, Commissioner. First off, where are things

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Speaker 1: ash in terms of the discussions with the union? Are

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Speaker 1: we expecting staff to take industrial action?

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Speaker 2: The short answer is, Katie, I don't know, and we've

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Speaker 2: been in close consultations with the union and Miss Early

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Speaker 2: since Thursday evening when I called her and wrote to her.

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Speaker 2: We held a three hour disultation meeting on Friday. I

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Speaker 2: wrote to the union every day over the weekend keeping

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Speaker 2: them updated, and then of course yesterday we had another

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Speaker 2: union meeting with both the UWU and the CPSU. They

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Speaker 2: are saying that they intend to survey their members to

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Speaker 2: take industrial action. But then about quarter past five yesterday,

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Speaker 2: I will serve papers in Fair Work Commission.

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Speaker 3: So I expect that.

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Speaker 2: To flow through the week and we'll work through that

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Speaker 2: as we get through the next couple of days. I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping that that's not what the union decides to do.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to see prison officers walk off the job.

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Speaker 2: I need them on the tools at work, and to

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Speaker 2: be honest, Katie, they've been doing a remarkable job over

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Speaker 2: the last few days under extreme pressure, and I thank

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Speaker 2: them for it. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: the union's doing their thing, I'm doing mine and I'm

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Speaker 2: just trying to make sure the prisons are safe.

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Speaker 1: So papers served to you yesterday afternoon at five point fifteen.

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Speaker 1: What exactly does that mean for the everyday person listening

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Speaker 1: this morning?

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Speaker 2: It means is the union have decided to take me

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Speaker 2: to the Fair Work Commission. Frankly, and I now have

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Speaker 2: to appear at an appropriate date That could be as early

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Speaker 2: as the next couple of days.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, and frustrating for you, like you're trying

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Speaker 1: to manage an emergency situation within our correctional facilities.

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Speaker 2: Well, the union is exercising it's I guess entitlements under

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Speaker 2: Fairwork legislation.

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Speaker 3: They've listed that.

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Speaker 2: Matter at Fair Work and I have to respond to it.

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Speaker 2: What they have said in their application is that I've

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Speaker 2: misinterpreted my powers and I've misapplied them to their enterprise agreement.

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Speaker 2: And look, that's a matter for Fair Work to decide.

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Speaker 2: I'll respond accordingly. I can't obviously debate that on radio,

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Speaker 2: but it means that the thread of industrial action is

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Speaker 2: pretty real. We know that the union is out there

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Speaker 2: surveying its members online as to whether they support a

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Speaker 2: walk off. Now again, I met with the unions yesterday

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Speaker 2: intensively with all of my senior team.

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Speaker 3: I don't want them to do that.

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Speaker 2: And my message to staff, and I was in the

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Speaker 2: prison at Darwin on the weekend. My message to staff

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Speaker 2: is stick on the tools, do what we need to do,

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Speaker 2: get through this. We can work together and solve the problem.

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Speaker 2: But the union is convinced that I've misapplied my powers,

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Speaker 2: and I guess I'll have to be accountable for that.

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Speaker 1: Commissioner, I mean, you've touched on it then, but look.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of the correctional officers listen to

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Speaker 1: the show. They're probably hearing you this morning. What is

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Speaker 1: your message to them today?

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Speaker 2: My message is, we're under pressure, we're working hard. You're

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Speaker 2: doing an awesome job. I was in the prison on

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Speaker 2: the weekend. I was at the airport when the plane

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Speaker 2: took off. I visited both Palmerston and Darwin watchhouses and

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Speaker 2: spoke to the staff there and they've got lots of

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Speaker 2: questions about what our plans are. But you know what, Katie,

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Speaker 2: they're out there every day doing it tough under significant pressure.

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Speaker 3: We know that.

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Speaker 2: But they're doing an amazing job and I thank them

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Speaker 2: for it. My message is, tough it out, let's get

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Speaker 2: through this together, let's work hard on it. We've got

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Speaker 2: a plan, but we can't control the prison numbers that

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Speaker 2: come to us, and that's really what precipitated this act.

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Speaker 2: Police are out there doing their thing, and by the

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Speaker 2: end of Friday we'd hit twenty three seventy prisoners. I

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Speaker 2: started the week about twenty three, I don't know twenty something,

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Speaker 2: So we spiked about fifty prisoners in watchhouses in the

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Speaker 2: space of five days.

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Speaker 1: And so you don't attribute that to the legislative changes

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Speaker 1: that have come into place, like over the last week.

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Speaker 1: That is more so the police are out there. They

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Speaker 1: are arresting people that are breaking the law.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: The legislation has been passed through Parliament, but I think,

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Speaker 2: as the government has said, it doesn't take effect just yet.

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Speaker 2: This is the cops out there doing what the cops do.

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Speaker 2: And you know, as we've said before, I don't get

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Speaker 2: to decide who comes to jail. But what we know

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Speaker 2: is by Thursday evening when I wrote to the union,

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Speaker 2: and then by Friday, we were up over I think

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Speaker 2: two three hundred and seventy odd prisoners and there were

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Speaker 2: twenty something in Catherine that I couldn't bring to Darwin

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Speaker 2: because there was no room at Palmeston and Palmerston Watchhouse.

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Speaker 2: I had ninety one I think prisoners in our custody.

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Speaker 2: That's not what police are dealing with in their fresh charges.

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Speaker 2: So not only do I have to make sure we

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Speaker 2: manage the prisoners that have been remanded to us by

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Speaker 2: the courts, but I've got to keep an eye down

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Speaker 2: the track a couple of days because the police are

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Speaker 2: going to keep coming.

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Speaker 3: That's the thing.

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Speaker 1: People are still continuing to break the law unfortunately. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess can you assure listeners as well, because for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people listening this morning, they get that

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Speaker 1: it's a juggle, and they get that you guys are

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Speaker 1: absolutely bursting at the seams. But what they also want

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Speaker 1: to be sure of is that we're not going to

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Speaker 1: wind up in a situation where people are back out

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Speaker 1: on the street who shouldn't be, you know, because the

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Speaker 1: jail is full.

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Speaker 2: Well that's the point, Katie, is if the court issues

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Speaker 2: me a warrant to say, you know, Bob's coming to jail,

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Speaker 2: then I don't have a lawful power to refuse that warrant.

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Speaker 3: It's my job to take them into custody.

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Speaker 2: The warrants addressed to me on the top of the

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Speaker 2: other document from the court, right, so I don't get

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Speaker 2: to decide how many I have to keep. My job

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Speaker 2: is to keep them, and that's what we've been doing

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Speaker 2: over the last few days. And that's why I made

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Speaker 2: those decisions on Friday, and frankly, I've stopped worrying about

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Speaker 2: why they're coming to jail. My job is to respond

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Speaker 2: to that operational absolutely, and that's what we did on

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Speaker 2: the weekend, Katie, and I think the point I'd make

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Speaker 2: to your listeners is when corrections does what it does best,

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Speaker 2: which is sole problems. We moved some of the largest

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Speaker 2: prisoner movements over those two days Saturday Sunday, I think

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Speaker 2: in history, and not just the aircraft I'm talking probably

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Speaker 2: we moved in Alice Springs one hundred and twenty odd

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Speaker 2: prisoners around in blocks to make that work. So our

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Speaker 2: troops are out there behind the scenes every day, cracking

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Speaker 2: on with the job and we've just got to get

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Speaker 2: through this.

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Speaker 1: So Commissioner, it seems to me, and we had this

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Speaker 1: discussion with the Chief Minister just a short time ago,

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Speaker 1: it's a bit of a moving beast at the moment.

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Speaker 1: We know that the new youth detention yep.

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Speaker 2: So my plan is to have the young people transitioning

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Speaker 2: to out of don Dale, I should say, two Holts

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Speaker 2: later this week. I expect that facility at Holts to

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Speaker 2: be operational with that first batch, well, sorry, the batch

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Speaker 2: of kids from Darwin yep, Monday, the fourth of November.

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Speaker 1: Monday, the fourth of November next week is when it's

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Speaker 1: going to be operational. What about the young people from

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Speaker 1: Alice Springs?

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Speaker 3: So We're not going to move them straight away.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, We're going to hold those whilst we settle down

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Speaker 2: the operations of the new center, make sure the thing works,

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Speaker 2: make sure the staff have got the plan place running well.

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Speaker 2: Obviously we want to make sure the kids out of

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Speaker 2: don Dale adapt to that new environment. So there's a

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Speaker 2: clever science that our youth justice folks do around making

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Speaker 2: sure that the temperature is right. Then we'll go and

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Speaker 2: we already have started consulting with the kids in Alice

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Speaker 2: Springs and eventually we'll feed those up. But I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to do it all at one hit, because I

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Speaker 2: want to make sure that center is safe.

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Speaker 1: But so once it becomes operational, then you've got a

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Speaker 1: situation where the female prisoners, as I understand it, can

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Speaker 1: move to Alice Springs, or some of them can move

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Speaker 1: to Alice Springs. You've then got greater capacity up here

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Speaker 1: in Darwin in the sense that the old don Dale

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Speaker 1: or Berrama prison is going to become operational again. How

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Speaker 1: quickly are you expecting all of these pieces to come

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Speaker 1: into place.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a series of really quick pieces, Katie, and

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Speaker 2: some of those I actually advanced on the weekend and

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Speaker 2: I'll explain that in a moment. But then there's the

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Speaker 2: longer term piece, as the government has said with the

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Speaker 2: master plan. So you're right, fourth and November, kids into

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Speaker 2: the new Holt Center and then will be hell for

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Speaker 2: leather in the Behrama Center for men by doing the

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Speaker 2: security and the upgrade works. The trades and the work

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Speaker 2: parties are already in there.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: We're fixing electrical, we're fixing interocoms, we're fixing alarms and radios.

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Speaker 2: I expect we'll have the first batch of male prisoners

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Speaker 2: in there by early December.

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Speaker 3: That's my target, early December, yep.

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Speaker 2: And then i'd say, right is my original plan obviously

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Speaker 2: was to relocate the young people from the Ala Springs

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Speaker 2: Center up to Holts, move the women temporarily to Darwin

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Speaker 2: Correctional Center. Because I had twenty one spare female beds

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Speaker 2: and I had thirty six prisoners female prisoners in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 2: So twenty one of those female beds in Holts I

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Speaker 2: filled up and then I put what's that another fifteen

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Speaker 2: or so on mattresses on the floor whilst I sought

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Speaker 2: out the youth center in Alice Springs for a few weeks.

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Speaker 2: Why do I do that because as of today, Katie,

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Speaker 2: I've got twenty five male prisoners in the women's sector

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Speaker 2: that we vacated on Saturday Sunday. They're in there now,

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Speaker 2: So I've brought that for twenty five prisoners were moved

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Speaker 2: in there, I think yesterday, which meant I could get

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Speaker 2: the Alice Springs Watchhouse down from about forty prisoners which

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Speaker 2: we were on the weekend.

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Speaker 3: Since this morning there's eight.

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Speaker 2: So what we've been doing is moving the checkerboards around,

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Speaker 2: working with the general managers and their staff to make

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Speaker 2: this work. And we're responding to that crisis and that emergency.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's what territories expect me to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is as well. I think that

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Speaker 1: they do expect you to have to, you know, to

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Speaker 1: actually have to move things around and make sure that

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Speaker 1: you know that you're able to deal with potential potentially

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Speaker 1: more prisoners coming in as well. Commissioner, I guess you know.

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Speaker 1: The other really important part here though, is do we

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Speaker 1: have enough staff to deal with all of what is

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Speaker 1: going on? And one of the things that erin early

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Speaker 1: had said yesterday is that they would like to see

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Speaker 1: some of the middle management potentially step away from their

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Speaker 1: desks and you know, boots on the ground helping out

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Speaker 1: the correctional staff around those facilities. Is that something that's

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Speaker 1: going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say that, firstly, all of your senior

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Speaker 2: executive team was in the prison or weekend. The escort

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Speaker 2: plane from Darwin to Alice Springs and back again was

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Speaker 2: commanded by a deputy superintendent. I was in the prison

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Speaker 2: on Sunday and I saw chief correctional officers doing their thing,

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Speaker 2: managing that reception of those thirty six women. Let's remember

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Speaker 2: that some of these chief correctional officers and the deputy

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Speaker 2: superintendents also have a day job, which is running the place.

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Speaker 2: I can tell you down in Alice Springs a large

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Speaker 2: chunk of the leadership team was working over the weekend too,

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Speaker 2: because I talked to them. So I understand erin as criticism,

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Speaker 2: I don't agree with it. I think there's more that

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Speaker 2: we all need to lean in together as a team,

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Speaker 2: and to be frank, I don't think it helps taking

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Speaker 2: potshots at each other.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: Just lastly, I mean, when you look at the situation

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Speaker 1: that's currently you know that is currently underway, you look

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Speaker 1: at the fact that you know, it does seem as

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Speaker 1: though we do need extra staff. We needned that you're

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Speaker 1: able to go, that you're going to be able to

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Speaker 1: keep things safe, avoid any kind of you know, right,

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Speaker 1: bad behavior within those prisons.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Well, firstly, I would say that the safety of my

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Speaker 2: people and my staff.

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Speaker 3: Is my top of mind. That's what keeps me awake

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Speaker 3: at night.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the prisons are overcrowded, but I want to be

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Speaker 2: really clear about some things, and that is we need

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Speaker 2: to remember that prisoners watch the news, they have televisions,

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Speaker 2: they talk to their families and friends over the phone.

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Speaker 2: So let's not get into this alarmist, you know, just

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Speaker 2: the sky is falling in thing about riots. I want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that the prisoners don't get any ideas

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Speaker 2: in their heads, right. My job is to make sure

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Speaker 2: we manage the temperature and the security climate of that prison,

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Speaker 2: and raising rhetoric around riots doesn't help.

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Speaker 3: I just make that point. However, Yes, we're short staffed.

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Speaker 2: We've got more correctional offices than ever before, but we're

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Speaker 2: also manning more posts than ever before. That's why we're

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Speaker 2: juggling these balls. I recruited, I think, I sorry, I

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Speaker 2: swore in fourteen new correction offices last Friday, KT after

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Speaker 2: we met last week. There's another fifteen in training. We're

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Speaker 2: still recruiting. I hear the unions concerned. What I'm saying

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Speaker 2: to the union, but more importantly, what I'm saying to

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Speaker 2: my correction officers on the ground is stick with me.

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Speaker 2: Judge me on my leadership, Judge me on the results.

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Speaker 2: We're going to deliver together, and we're going to get

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Speaker 2: this job done.

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Speaker 1: Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley, really appreciate your time. I know

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Speaker 1: that you are incredibly busy. I think that everybody can

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Speaker 1: hear that this morning. Appreciate you taking the time, though

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Speaker 1: to come in and speak with us. We'll talk to

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Speaker 1: you again, hopefully not too soon.

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Speaker 3: Great. Thanks Katie, thank you,