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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 3: I'm the founder of Happy Families dot com dot au

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Speaker 3: and the author of six books about how to make

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Speaker 3: your family happier. Really excited to have a return visitor

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Speaker 3: to the podcast today. Rachel Tomlinson, psychologist from WA and

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Speaker 3: the author of one of a book called Teaching Kids

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Speaker 3: to Be Kind, which added with her. Just a handful

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Speaker 3: of weeks ago, we were talking about how we can

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Speaker 3: help ocks be kind to themselves, to us as parents,

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Speaker 3: and to their siblings. Today a different kind of conversation.

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Speaker 3: Rachel has just recently, just in the last few weeks,

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Speaker 3: released a book called A Blue Kind of Day. It's

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Speaker 3: a kid's book about depression and feeling sad, and Rachel

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Speaker 3: joins me today, really nice to be with you again, Rachel,

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Speaker 3: thanks for coming back on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me back to be here.

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Speaker 2: Tell me a bit about A Blue Kind of Day.

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Speaker 2: What's the book really.

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Speaker 3: About and why did you decide that we needed to

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Speaker 3: have a book about depression for kids.

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Speaker 1: I'll start with that question first. It goes all the

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Speaker 1: way back to when I was working in play therapy

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Speaker 1: and I had parents asking me for resources for their kids.

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Speaker 1: And the publishing landscape has changed since then. There are

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Speaker 1: definitely more things out there now, but back when I

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Speaker 1: was working with parents and families, there really wasn't a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of resources. They wanted to be able to,

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Speaker 1: you know, bread to their kids or share stories. There's

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Speaker 1: a few stories out there about like grief and loss,

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Speaker 1: and they're sort of a bit more popular and you know,

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Speaker 1: in the publishing space, and I just couldn't find anything

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Speaker 1: that was really connected. And I really felt for these

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Speaker 1: children because they couldn't see themselves and their lived experience

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Speaker 1: reflected in literature. They would see these happy, go lucky

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Speaker 1: stories of kids that are having, you know, very small

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Speaker 1: kind of problems and not to you know, not to

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Speaker 1: undermine that. You know that a small problem is any less,

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Speaker 1: but they couldn't see themselves. And so what I ended

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Speaker 1: up doing was, as part of the therapy, would we

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Speaker 1: would write up a little story about a character who

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Speaker 1: was very similar, who lived or had similar lived experiences,

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Speaker 1: and we've built coping that they've been learning and play

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Speaker 1: therapy into this book. And it wasn't a resolution like

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Speaker 1: a Everything's fixed, Everything's great. But it was a story

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Speaker 1: that they could see themselves in and they would illustrate it,

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Speaker 1: and they would take it home and their parents would

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Speaker 1: read it to them. And I had a colleague who

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Speaker 1: was like, you should, you should publish a book. And

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Speaker 1: this is actually a book that I wrote way before

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Speaker 1: I even did Teaching Kids to Be Kind. It's just

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Speaker 1: taken a long time to make its way out into

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Speaker 1: the world. And so the story is a very gentle,

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Speaker 1: quiet story about a young boy experiencing and sadness. Those

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Speaker 1: words are never used in the book. It's very much

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Speaker 1: based on how children have described depression to me in

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Speaker 1: their bodies. So kids talk about what depression feels like.

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Speaker 1: They don't say, hey, Mum or Dad, I'm depressed. They

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Speaker 1: don't really do that. And so there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: metaphor and use of language or descriptions of sensations in

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Speaker 1: the body so that children can connect to that and

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Speaker 1: can understand it and make sense of it. And it's

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Speaker 1: also a very gentle story about not rushing feelings about

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Speaker 1: you know, families wanting to fix it and make it better,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes it's just the space where they can hold

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Speaker 1: their young person then allow them to have those sad

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Speaker 1: feelings and support them by being present and being connected.

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Speaker 1: And so the story doesn't end with who Ray is

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Speaker 1: depression is gone. It kind of ends on a message

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Speaker 1: of you know, hope. And then at the very end

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Speaker 1: of the book, it's got some tips for what parents

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Speaker 1: can look out for, what kind of behaviors and things

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Speaker 1: they might notice, and also a couple of strategies around

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Speaker 1: sort of emotional intelligence giving them the words to describe

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Speaker 1: their feelings.

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Speaker 3: So interesting listening to you talk about that, Rachel, because

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Speaker 3: when I think of the way we are with our

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Speaker 3: children and their emotions. So if I'm running a workshop

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Speaker 3: for parents, I'll say to them, what emotions in your

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Speaker 3: children are okay?

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Speaker 2: Actually, let's change that. I'll do it intentionally.

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Speaker 3: I asked the question that I go, hang on a second,

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Speaker 3: what emotions are not okay? What emotions are not okay?

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Speaker 3: And usually some parents will put up the hand and say, well,

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Speaker 3: I don't think anger. Oh, And as they're even answering,

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Speaker 3: I can hear that hesitation, I don't know about anger.

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Speaker 2: Maybe anger is oic. Don't about saying oh, yeah, it's okay.

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Speaker 3: And eventually every parent in the room will say, our

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Speaker 3: children's emotions are okay. Every emotion is okay. Every emotion

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Speaker 3: is part of that whole and lived human experience. And

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Speaker 3: then my next question is, so what do we do

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Speaker 3: when our children are having a ocetions that we feel

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Speaker 3: discomfort around, whether it's depression, or whether it's anger, or

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Speaker 3: even when they're stupidly happy and they're bouncing off the

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Speaker 3: walls and off the beds and off the matter, and.

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Speaker 2: What do we do as parents? We try to stop.

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Speaker 3: The emotion because we find it inconvenient or we find

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Speaker 3: it uncomfortable. And I love the way you've described in

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Speaker 3: the book We've got Little Cohen who's having a really

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Speaker 3: if I can paraphrase another book that's one of my

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Speaker 3: favorites around this idea, who's having a terrible, horrible, no good,

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Speaker 3: very bad day, probably having a terrible, horrible, no good,

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Speaker 3: very bad week or or month or life. And instead

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Speaker 3: of saying, as a parent, my job is to fix

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Speaker 3: this and fix you and make you better, what you're

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Speaker 3: saying is these parents have gently stepped into the stepped

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Speaker 3: into the scene and said, wow, this is tough. We're

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Speaker 3: going to be here with you while you feel this.

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Speaker 3: So you feel supported even when things aren't right. That's

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Speaker 3: my sense of what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. They try, they try it at first,

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Speaker 1: you know, they pull out grit teddy, they tell a joke,

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Speaker 1: you know, they.

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Speaker 3: Go, come on, you get up.

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Speaker 1: You know you'll be fine. The worst thing you can

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Speaker 1: tell someone with depression is just like just you know,

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Speaker 1: get over it, or just you know, just cheer up.

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Speaker 1: If that truly works, you know, I'd be out of

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Speaker 1: a job. It doesn't work that way. It is about

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Speaker 1: you know, patience and time. Like emotions come and they

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Speaker 1: go when we don't always have control over them. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: they come for a long time and they stick around.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like short and sharp and over and very

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Speaker 1: intense and then they're done. But what the story really

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Speaker 1: wants to sort of like what I really want to

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Speaker 1: get out in the story is about you know, patients

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Speaker 1: and waiting and being okay to not be okay beautiful.

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Speaker 3: Right off the break, we're going to talk about the

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Speaker 3: way that depression does show up in kids, the words

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Speaker 3: that they use, and also how old they are. When

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Speaker 3: we start to see signs of depression and other mental

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Speaker 3: illness in our little ones, tweens, Teens and Screens is

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Speaker 3: the webinar you need if you're struggling with screen time

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Speaker 3: at home. Join me as I unpack the simplest methods

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Speaker 3: to deal with the screen scene and eliminate the drama

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Speaker 3: without having to ban all devices.

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Speaker 2: Even in some of the trickiest situations.

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Speaker 3: Screens can work in your family's favor, even if you

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Speaker 3: have tweens and teens. Check out Tweens, Teens and Screens

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Speaker 3: at happy families dot com dot au. It's the Happy

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Speaker 3: Families podcast, the podcast for the time poor parent who

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Speaker 3: just wants answers. Now, this is doctor Justin Colson. Today

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Speaker 3: I'm having a chat with Rachel Tomlinson, the author of

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Speaker 3: a book for kids called A Blue Kind Of Day.

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Speaker 3: It's a picture book to help kids who are having

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Speaker 3: a rough time with their big and challenging let's call

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Speaker 3: them negative emotions. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the use

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Speaker 3: of the word negative because sometimes those negative emotions are

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Speaker 3: pretty dune helpful and positive. But in this case, we're

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Speaker 3: talking about this challenge. Rachel Tomlinson is the author. She's

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Speaker 3: a WA psychologist, and we've got to understand a bit

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Speaker 3: more about depression in kids. Rachel I mean, historically, most

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Speaker 3: of the research that was current when I was going

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Speaker 3: through my university experience suggested that diagnosis of depression in

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Speaker 3: kids would be pretty unusual. We don't really start to

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Speaker 3: diagnose depressioning kids until they're well into their tween years

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Speaker 3: and often their teen years. Much more likely to see

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Speaker 3: anxiety with kids, although the two are related. What are

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Speaker 3: you seeing nowadays? What's the research saying about when depression

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Speaker 3: can show up at its earliest and when it shows

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Speaker 3: up on average?

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Speaker 1: I still don't think that when necessarily any closer to

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Speaker 1: pinpointing an age because it's all about being able to

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Speaker 1: describe internal experiences and our children are notoriously not so

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Speaker 1: great at that. And all of the I guess testing

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Speaker 1: materials or sort of questionnaires that you might run with

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Speaker 1: someone to try and to turn or do they have

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Speaker 1: these symptoms of depression children? First of all, they haven't

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Speaker 1: really done a lot of research into using those with

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Speaker 1: younger age groups, so they're not as reliable. So things

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Speaker 1: like the depression anxiety Stress Scale han't you isn't really

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Speaker 1: typically used for children under twelve, So it comes down

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Speaker 1: to children not being able to sort of express that

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Speaker 1: internal stuff to be able to pinpoint that they are

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Speaker 1: describing or that they are experiencing symptoms of depression. It

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Speaker 1: can be very complicated. It's not to say that they're

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Speaker 1: not experiencing it, which is why we need to sort

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Speaker 1: of look at some of the behaviors that maybe the

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Speaker 1: child would talk about and how they would make sense

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Speaker 1: of those experiences. So children often describe a heaviness in

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Speaker 1: their body. So what they're referring to is psychomotor retardation,

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Speaker 1: which sounds like a big fan word, but it's like

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Speaker 1: the slowing down of the body. And so they might

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Speaker 1: have trouble getting out of bed, they might sleep too much,

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Speaker 1: or they might have sleep disturbed. It's hard to get

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Speaker 1: to sleep or stay asleep, feeling exhausted instead of having

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Speaker 1: to drag themselves through the day.

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Speaker 2: Kind of sounds like every parent I know, rachel or parents.

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Speaker 1: Of teenagers, they might notice that. I mean, that's one thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, A full diagnosis of depression is a combination

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Speaker 1: of many different symptoms, and it's not just they experienced

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Speaker 1: it for you know, one day out of the week.

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Speaker 1: Everybody is going to experience some symptoms across their lifetime.

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Speaker 1: But what it's talking about is that those experiences continue

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Speaker 1: for most of the day, and that that occurs most

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Speaker 1: days of the week, and then again that it's occurred

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Speaker 1: for an extended period of time, so not just that

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Speaker 1: sporadic kind of here and there. And that's when we

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Speaker 1: sort of start to put together a bit of a

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Speaker 1: picture that maybe this is something that we need to

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Speaker 1: look a bit more into. And it can be even

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Speaker 1: things like the children. You've got a primary and a

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Speaker 1: secondary emotions of the emotion underneath, but it appears in

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Speaker 1: different ways. Particularly when I was working with boys, feelings

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Speaker 1: of sadness were often expressed as feelings of agitation or

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Speaker 1: anger because I felt very uncomfortable being sad. It was

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Speaker 1: very vulnerable feeling for them, which is why the character

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Speaker 1: in this book is a male, because they find it

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Speaker 1: a little bit harder. With the clients I've worked with

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Speaker 1: have found it a little bit harder to connect to

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Speaker 1: that feeling of sadness, so describing sort of like feeling

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Speaker 1: like tight and body coiled up, feeling, you know, uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: and confused, finding it hard to put their thoughts together

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Speaker 1: and express their thoughts. There are many different ways that

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Speaker 1: a child would describe depression than what we would as adults,

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Speaker 1: be you to articulate.

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Speaker 3: So, Rachel, as we move towards a completion of this

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Speaker 3: conversation about your book, if parents are worried that the

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Speaker 3: kids may be depressed, what would the what would the

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Speaker 3: central message be from you to help them to identify

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Speaker 3: the next best thing that they can do to support

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Speaker 3: their child.

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Speaker 1: I think it's very important to open up the conversation.

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Speaker 1: First of all, we want to hear from our kids

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Speaker 1: how they're feeling, what they're feeling, not rushing them through

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Speaker 1: the feeling. So if you're asking the question, allowing them

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Speaker 1: to speak it, to say it out loud, reflecting back

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Speaker 1: what you hear. To help your child make sense of

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Speaker 1: that internal world, give them words for emotions so that

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Speaker 1: it's a bit like cat. You know, cats and dogs

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Speaker 1: when you break it down, them very very similar. And

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Speaker 1: our children only learn that a cat is a cat

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Speaker 1: because we say it a million times when they pointed

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Speaker 1: the cat and say dog. When we correct them and say,

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Speaker 1: oh no, that's not a dog, that's a cat, eventually

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Speaker 1: they learn it over time. We have to give our

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Speaker 1: children the words for their feelings as well, so that

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Speaker 1: they can describe them and we can help them make

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Speaker 1: sense of that. But it's also about if they are

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Speaker 1: feeling low and flat, trying to find ways that they

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Speaker 1: can cope with that. So things like sensory regulation, you know,

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Speaker 1: finding some ways to self soothe or look after themselves

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Speaker 1: via their senses, so different like smells, you know, different

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Speaker 1: things to like touch and squish like Plato, or you know,

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Speaker 1: songs that make them feel happy. Giving them a sense

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Speaker 1: of control over their emotions by giving them some strategies

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Speaker 1: to cope is a really great place to start. But

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Speaker 1: as I always say, you as a parent are the

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Speaker 1: expert of yourself and of your children, but you're not

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Speaker 1: necessarily a professional. So being really aware of where you're

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Speaker 1: where your capacity, like, where your limits are, where you

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Speaker 1: feel comfortable supporting your child, and at what point like

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Speaker 1: they need to reach out and get some professional support

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: Great advice.

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Speaker 3: Rachel Tomlinson the author of A Blue Kind of Day,

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Speaker 3: a new children's book about feeling sad or even depressed.

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Speaker 3: We will link to the book in the show notes.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us in the conversation today, Rachel, really

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Speaker 3: valuable stuff.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: If you're wonderful, The.

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Speaker 3: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media,

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Speaker 3: and we appreciate our executive producer Craig Bruce for his

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Speaker 3: great work on the podcast as well. If you'd like

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Speaker 3: more info about making your family happier, please visit us

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Speaker 3: at Happyfamilies dot com dot au