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Speaker 1: As we have been reporting, the Northern Territory Police Commissioner

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Speaker 1: Michael Murphy has publicly apologized to Indigenous Territorians for harms

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Speaker 1: and injustices caused by the force over the past one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty four years of policing. The Commissioner delivered

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Speaker 1: the apology at the Garma Festival on Saturday, and as

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Speaker 1: we heard on the show yesterday, there's been mixed reactions

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Speaker 1: to that apology and the timing behind it. The Police

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Speaker 1: Minister yesterday confirmed that he was aware that the commissioners

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Speaker 1: of the Police Commissioner's plans about a week ago, but

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Speaker 1: denied any political interference. The Northern Territory Police Commissioner Michael

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Speaker 1: Murphy joins me in the studio. Good morning to your commissioner, Good.

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Speaker 2: Morning Katie, Good morning to all your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time this morning. I appreciate

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Speaker 1: you joining us in the studio. Now, why did you

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Speaker 1: decide to make this apology at the Garma Festival on Saturday?

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Speaker 2: I had to acknowledge the past. This has been really

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Speaker 2: a discussion that's come to light since twenty nineteen, since

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Speaker 2: the death of Commenji Walk. But it's been on my

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Speaker 2: mind since we created the one hundred and fifty year

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Speaker 2: Book for policing too, when you look back at the

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Speaker 2: history and can I just start by saying that police

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Speaker 2: do an incredibly hard job and we have tremendous officers

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Speaker 2: around the territory, men and women every day who work

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Speaker 2: incredibly hard to serve and protect the territory. That's acknowledged,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not taking away or diminishing any of the

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Speaker 2: good work they do. What we do need to acknowledge

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Speaker 2: is we have a history. We have a history where

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Speaker 2: there's been massacres. We've implemented policies on behalf of governments

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Speaker 2: that have been half full, the Stolen Generation, the intervention

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Speaker 2: that caused hir incarceration rates. That's reflected in Closing the

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Speaker 2: Gap as well about that work. So this is an

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Speaker 2: incredibly important part in time to acknowledge the past and

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Speaker 2: move forward. And we've got thirty one percent Indigenous Australians

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Speaker 2: Aboriginal territories across the territory who represent a large proportion

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Speaker 2: of crime and over ninety percent of mens incarceration rates

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Speaker 2: in the jail, so we have to do something differently.

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Speaker 2: This is the right thing to do. It's about changing thinking.

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Speaker 2: I acknowledge, is it struck disruptive? When is the right

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Speaker 2: time to do this?

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess many would argue the right time isn't

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Speaker 1: three weeks out from an election, when the government's gone

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Speaker 1: into caretaker mode. And that is why people are questioning

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Speaker 1: whether this was political. Was there any discussions with the

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Speaker 1: Police Minister or with the Chief Minister about when this

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Speaker 1: was going to happen.

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Speaker 2: So the government is in caretaker mode, the Commissioner of

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Speaker 2: Police is not. I've got a job to do. I

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Speaker 2: need to be progressive. Garma was a really good place

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Speaker 2: to do that around an audience. It was impactful, it

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Speaker 2: was a wide reach. We considered nadok. I didn't think already,

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Speaker 2: you know, I've got to It's really uncomfortable because when

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Speaker 2: is when? Am I ready? But what we've got to

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Speaker 2: do is the important work and this is the start

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Speaker 2: of a journey. And I need the police officers, I

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Speaker 2: need the community, and I need Aboriginal leaders to come

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Speaker 2: within me to make a difference. I'm not the solution.

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Speaker 2: The Northern Territory Police isn't the solution about making the

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Speaker 2: community safer, and that's the long term goal and it's

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Speaker 2: all about Sorry, Katie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was just going to ask you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of discussions that have been had

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Speaker 1: with the with the Police Minister. He'd confirmed on the

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Speaker 1: show yesterday that you guys had had a discussion about

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Speaker 1: a week ago.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I've told the Police Minister that I intended

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Speaker 2: to do a speech.

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Speaker 3: So it wasn't a should I do it, It was

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Speaker 3: a I am doing it.

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Speaker 2: I was doing it, and I made that really clear

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Speaker 2: to the minister. There is absolutely no political interference, you know,

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Speaker 2: out of just basic courtesy. I've let the Police Minister

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Speaker 2: know I think it's really important, Like I prefer to

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Speaker 2: tell the Police Minister then him read it on the

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Speaker 2: front page of the paper.

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Speaker 1: Did you think to yourself or this might be seen

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Speaker 1: as being political because we are now in caretaking.

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Speaker 2: Mite, not really like I'm just I'm getting on with

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Speaker 2: the job. You know. I'm alive to the fact there

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Speaker 2: are are caretake there's an election coming up, but I

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Speaker 2: can't stop policing or of being the Commissioner of Police

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Speaker 2: for four weeks leading into election. I'm still got a

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Speaker 2: responsibility as CEO and the Commissioner to keep doing police

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Speaker 2: work and do everything we can to protect territorians and

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Speaker 2: keep the community safe and that you know, I've got

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Speaker 2: to be strategic as well. So this is about we're

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Speaker 2: trying to recruit Aboriginal territories into the ranks. We will

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Speaker 2: see that make a difference. We're currently sitting at twelve

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Speaker 2: percent Indigenous representation in the ranks. We need to get

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Speaker 2: to thirty percent. That's only the basic we're representing the

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Speaker 2: community and that's a basis of policing. When people look

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Speaker 2: at the uniform and the police officers, they need to

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Speaker 2: see themselves and that's about trust, confidence and legitimacy, and

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Speaker 2: that's where we need to get to.

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Speaker 3: Look.

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Speaker 1: Many people contacted as yesterday and questioned why you felt

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Speaker 1: the need to make the apology after publicly saying that

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Speaker 1: you do not believe that there is systemic racism within

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Speaker 1: the force.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the racism and this is part of

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Speaker 2: the work that needs to be done. So I don't

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Speaker 2: think everyone has a real good grasp about what racism

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Speaker 2: looks like. You know, I'm on a learning curve too.

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Speaker 2: It's about individual racism. It could be personal, it could

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Speaker 2: be organizational as systemic. There are systems, there are policies

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Speaker 2: and the more we look and the more I speak

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Speaker 2: to people, and the more I'm learning about it, I

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Speaker 2: think we have room for improvement, a lot of room

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Speaker 2: for improvement and change. Talking to the Aboriginal Social Justice Commissioner,

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Speaker 2: talking to the Human Rights Commissioner, I mean that is

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Speaker 2: their bread and butter, and hearing their insights and the

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Speaker 2: way we can adjust, and it needs to be progressive,

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Speaker 2: but it needs to be bringing the workforce with us

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Speaker 2: as well. It can't be. You know, this speech is

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Speaker 2: the beginning of a journey and there will be many

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Speaker 2: things coming about education in the college, across our commissioner cohort,

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Speaker 2: letting the Anti discrimination Commissioner come and look at positive

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Speaker 2: duty in our workplace where actually legislative we're obliged to

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Speaker 2: deliver that. Having the Aboriginal Justice Agreement, I've written to

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Speaker 2: them say the doors open, come and help us and look.

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Speaker 1: I think a large body of that work is incredibly

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Speaker 1: important work. I would never I'm certainly not trying to

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Speaker 1: distract from that in any way, shape or form. I

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Speaker 1: guess the main concerns that have been raised with us

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Speaker 1: is really around that timing and some of the reasoning

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Speaker 1: behind it. We know it was also revealed in the

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Speaker 1: coronial inquest that those awards had been raised with you,

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Speaker 1: and you didn't investigate that.

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Speaker 3: At the time that a former officer had raised it.

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Speaker 1: So those those that's very much awards, you know that

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Speaker 1: everybody everybody is now aware of. Now, I guess some

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Speaker 1: this morning you're going to be asking if they can

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Speaker 1: trust the apology when you didn't follow up on those concerns.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I have to own that. You know, I

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Speaker 2: didn't do what I was supposed to do, and I

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Speaker 2: should have reported at the earliest opportunity, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: left my mind. I've given testimony before her honor in

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Speaker 2: the coronial process. I'm alive for that too. So I

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Speaker 2: probably won't go too much into that because that coronial

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Speaker 2: inquest is still open and it's you know, scheduled for

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Speaker 2: more hearings later this year. But I have to acknowledge that.

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Speaker 2: I'm not trying to not say I didn't do that. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it was a mistake and error and I've learned from that.

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Speaker 2: But what's really important and what's come to light since

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Speaker 2: then through the awards and other evidence given by officers

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Speaker 2: and other events across the Northern Territory Police force is

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Speaker 2: I have to do something. You know, when you look

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Speaker 2: and when we can look at the last seven months,

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Speaker 2: eight months, we can look at the last one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty four years, we have to change our thinking

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Speaker 2: to future proof of the police force. And we've got

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Speaker 2: a really big opportunity to do that with a five

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy million dollar investment from government to actually

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Speaker 2: reform a lot of our work.

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Speaker 1: And you obviously feel that this apology is pivotal in

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Speaker 1: terms of being able to move forward and deal with

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Speaker 1: the issues that we've got with crime and some of

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Speaker 1: the indigenous issues that we've got in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely instrumental. I've had that many messages from corporate sector,

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Speaker 2: from industry, from Aborginal leaders throughout Australia about you know,

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Speaker 2: taking the next step and this is about I go

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Speaker 2: keep going back to the hearts and mind stuff. The

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Speaker 2: police force needs the trust of the community. It needs

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Speaker 2: the confidence of the community police by consent. This is

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Speaker 2: this is a step and you know, mentioning my speech,

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Speaker 2: it's the ability to be open to criticism and this

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Speaker 2: is a good discussion and it's a narrative and it's

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Speaker 2: one that we need to have.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it is absolutely a discussion that needs to

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Speaker 1: be had, and I appreciate that you're having it with

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Speaker 1: me this morning. But I guess there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: police officers that listen to this show. And I know

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Speaker 1: that the Northern Territory Police Association issued their statement obviously

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Speaker 1: over the weekend saying that they acknowledge the apology speech

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Speaker 1: delivered by yourself. But the acting president, Lisa Bayless, had

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Speaker 1: said that it is important to confront, acknowledge and learn

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Speaker 1: from the past without letting it define the Northern Territory Police.

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Speaker 1: She said, it's disappointing that the Commissioner did not communicate

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Speaker 1: the content the intent directly with the membership well in

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Speaker 1: advance of his speech. In fact, the speech in its

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Speaker 1: entirety was sent to the media before the membership. She said,

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Speaker 1: it's also not the role of police to assess the

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Speaker 1: success or otherwise of federal government directed policies of closing

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Speaker 1: the gap the stolen generation and the interview as the

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Speaker 1: Commissioner is done, Now, what did you make of that

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Speaker 1: statement from the Police Association?

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Speaker 2: So, just to step through a couple of things that

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Speaker 2: was communicated throughout the day, I've sent a message to

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Speaker 2: the president and the previous day a letter went out

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Speaker 2: in the morning on the Saturday to the acting President.

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Speaker 2: There were copies sent out to media and out on

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Speaker 2: the ground there and that's not uncommon practice to send

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Speaker 2: things out and embargo them. And then the message was

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Speaker 2: sent out to the workforce that afternoon.

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Speaker 3: So you're saying you did communicate.

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Speaker 2: That with them, Well, my corporate manager for Comms did, yes,

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Speaker 2: but it was agreed to that they'd go out and embargoed.

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Speaker 2: So I think that there was a couple of points

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Speaker 2: you made there about the speech going out. Then the

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Speaker 2: next part was the second part.

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Speaker 1: Of the question they came so she'd had I was

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Speaker 1: just reading the statement where she'd said, you know that

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Speaker 1: it's not actually the job of the police commissioner.

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Speaker 2: That's about it. Absolutely is my job to comment on

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Speaker 2: matters impacting the police force and operations. So the stolen generation,

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Speaker 2: the intervention absolutely impacted upon the police force. We've seen

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Speaker 2: the disadvantage, the disempowerment, the disenfranchised community that we see

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Speaker 2: come into our domestic violence, youth crime, road crashes. It

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Speaker 2: absolutely impacts policing. We have, sadly breaking new records every

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Speaker 2: week in the jails because we're locking people up. That's

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Speaker 2: not the answer. So you know, policy decisions from two

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Speaker 2: thousand and seven have definitely impacted upon policing.

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Speaker 1: So why did you consult with the Police Minister but

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Speaker 1: not speak to the association? I guess is the big

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Speaker 1: question here.

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Speaker 2: So I didn't consult with the police Minister. I informed

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Speaker 2: him I was doing a speech and the basis of it,

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Speaker 2: and he obviously was aware of it. I haven't emailed

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Speaker 2: him the speech, so I mean, it's just a basic courtesy,

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Speaker 2: Like I.

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Speaker 1: Said, So, why did you resign from the Police Association?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I was incredibly disappointed by the reaction

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Speaker 2: of the swift reaction without probably considering the bigger picture

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Speaker 2: and the importance of where we need to go. I

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Speaker 2: think it wasn't progressive. I don't agree with the values.

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Speaker 1: So part of it, I suppose were you most concerned

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Speaker 1: about what, like what part of the statement that you

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Speaker 1: know that they issued were you most worried about?

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Speaker 2: I think that you know, everyone I spoke to, we're

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Speaker 2: welcoming the acknowledgment and where we need to go to.

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Speaker 2: I just don't think an appropriate appreciation. You know, they

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Speaker 2: represent nine A per cent of the police force. But

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Speaker 2: you know, like the people I've spoken to, no one's

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Speaker 2: come up to me and I've asked them, you know,

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Speaker 2: how do you feel about this? You know, everyone's pretty

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Speaker 2: good with it, you know that is but it is disruptive.

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Speaker 2: I acknowledge that it's a big step.

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Speaker 1: How do you like, how are you now going to

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Speaker 1: take the force on the journey with you? If you've

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Speaker 1: got the association. They've sent this statement out. You know,

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Speaker 1: they'd said that one of their concerns is that Indigenous.

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Speaker 3: Like that, you know that we've got a situation.

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Speaker 1: They say, where where the Indigenous members of the FOCE.

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Speaker 1: Essentially if they are an AGPO, that they're not able

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Speaker 1: to progress through the ranks. You know, they can only

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Speaker 1: progress to senior ag pos. So they've raised that concern

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Speaker 1: that there's not a clear pathway for Indigenous people. So

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Speaker 1: I guess the point that they're also making in that

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Speaker 1: statement is that, you know, to apologize and to make

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Speaker 1: a grand statement is very different to providing opportunity to

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Speaker 1: some of those Indigenous members.

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Speaker 2: So the statement I made and I've highlighted isn't going

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Speaker 2: to be broken promises or shallow words from a white

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Speaker 2: police officer. It's about tangil outcomes and about measuring that.

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Speaker 2: I bought Miss lean Littled in to help me with

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Speaker 2: the reform work. She's an incredibly respected Central arunder woman

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Speaker 2: who's a previous police officer in South Australia, a lawyer

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Speaker 2: and Australia of the Year, incredibly networked and she's going

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Speaker 2: to help me reform some of the thinking. But we

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Speaker 2: have to bring the agency with us now. There's a

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Speaker 2: number of steps we'll undertake. So about the recruitment, We've

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Speaker 2: got to challenge how we recruit people and what barriers

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Speaker 2: we have in place as far as language and the like.

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Speaker 2: The fact that I'm really invested in our people and

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Speaker 2: their leadership and their pathways. We're seeing attrition drop to

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Speaker 2: lower levels, back to two thousand and nine and about

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Speaker 2: nine percent, which is really pleasing. We've got an incredibly

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Speaker 2: aggressive recruitment campaign thanks to the five hundred and seventy million,

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Speaker 2: but we have to bring people in. We need to

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Speaker 2: invest in people's leadership across the police force and that's

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Speaker 2: basically setting the steps up. We're working on our corporate plan,

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Speaker 2: We're working on the anti racism strategy that'll be communicated

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Speaker 2: more broadly, and I keep saying it's going to be

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Speaker 2: co designed and co owned to the workforce. We're going

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Speaker 2: to have a traveling party across the territory looking at

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Speaker 2: the plan and looking at the review team and how

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Speaker 2: they're involved in it, and what the recruitment space looks like.

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Speaker 2: So it's about the communication, the engagement. And can I

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Speaker 2: just say that even though I've resigned my position from

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territory Police Association, I'll continue to work incredibly

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Speaker 2: hard with them with the best interests of our membership

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Speaker 2: in mind, and continue to support their operations and functions.

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Speaker 1: So how come you sort of decided to resign? You

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Speaker 1: were obviously disapported with that statement, But you know, like,

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Speaker 1: are you going to be able to work quite as

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Speaker 1: closely with them as what you have following on from that?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think you know this is this is big.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of important work the Northern Territory of

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Speaker 2: Police Association does. There are times and you know, whilst

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Speaker 2: you know it's been reported that maybe we don't disagree

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Speaker 2: as much as we should, we actually do have robust discussions,

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Speaker 2: will continue a good relationship and do everything we can

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Speaker 2: for the best interest in our officers. That is an

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Speaker 2: undertaking I gave when I became Nikeshna.

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Speaker 1: And what do you say to those officers who are

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Speaker 1: listening this morning, who are you know who who are

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Speaker 1: feeling as though this is maybe a grand statement.

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Speaker 3: But it's.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's words rather than their meaningful action.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll translate that into action. I have to. I'm

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Speaker 2: accountable and it will be put measures in place. And

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Speaker 2: you know, Katie, one of my positives is unaccessible any

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Speaker 2: of our officers who would like to talk to me.

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Speaker 2: Most people have got my phone number, send me an email.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to talk to you. I'm happy to take

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Speaker 2: the time to travel to you and talk to you.

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Speaker 2: It's really hard, you know. That's where I rely really

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Speaker 2: heavily on my executive and that's been newly formed and established.

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Speaker 2: We've got a new renewed team. But the spanner control

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Speaker 2: on access and messaging to our workforce is incredibly important.

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Speaker 2: And that's another undertaking we need to do is make

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Speaker 2: sure that people know what's going on and they piloted

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Speaker 2: as well. So but if anyone that's you know, that

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Speaker 2: upset about it, please, you know, be courageous, make an

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Speaker 2: effort and.

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Speaker 1: Ring me, Commissioner, just a couple of quick ones before

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Speaker 1: I let you go.

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Speaker 3: I'm mindful of time.

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Speaker 1: But in all of the coverage over the weekend, there

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Speaker 1: was a line from that speech which had listeners contact

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Speaker 1: me over the weekend after reading it in the article.

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Speaker 3: Online on the ABC.

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Speaker 1: And it's the part where you say, one police are

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Speaker 1: routinely tasked with enforcing policies, laws, and regular relations both

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Speaker 1: federal and here in the Northern Territory that are often

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Speaker 1: influenced by media coverage of crime, victims and community safety,

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Speaker 1: regardless of data, evidence and expert advice. Now it's a

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Speaker 1: victim of crime who's been in contact with me about

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Speaker 1: that and said, I don't understand what he's trying to

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Speaker 1: say there. We've been told that you know that the

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Speaker 1: rates of crime are going up. I mean we can

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Speaker 1: all like, we can all see that, and why wouldn't

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Speaker 1: victims be part of you know, the way in which

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Speaker 1: decisions are made.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, absolutely, I think what I was trying to

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Speaker 2: point to there is we've had such a changing environment

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Speaker 2: in the media space, and when you have a hazard

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Speaker 2: and the outrage, the outrage doesn't dissipate that hazard. May,

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Speaker 2: I'm in no way trying to victim blame here. I

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Speaker 2: have a lot of empathy for victims and what they're

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Speaker 2: going through. And yes, we have really high crime rates.

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Speaker 2: They haven't abated. I acknowledge that we've got to work

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Speaker 2: incredibly hard to address the crime rates. So domestic vice,

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Speaker 2: the house break ins, what people getting their second most

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Speaker 2: valuable asset they're castolen, and the inconvenience attached to it.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're working really hard our offices every day.

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Speaker 2: You just have to look at the court system and

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Speaker 2: the correctional facilities. But you know, we've got a lot

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Speaker 2: of work to do because this is the point. We

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Speaker 2: can't keep doing the same thing because we're not getting

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Speaker 2: different results.

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Speaker 1: So what do you say to victims of crime who

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Speaker 1: are listening this morning, who feel as though you've minimized

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Speaker 1: their concerns with that line in that speech.

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Speaker 2: I'm not trying to minimize how victims of crime feel.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely I'm not, and that's not my intent, And I'm

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Speaker 2: sorry you're a victim of crime and old work with

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Speaker 2: my team incredibly hard to ensure you don't become a

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Speaker 2: further victim of crime.

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Speaker 1: Now, look, final question this morning, what do you say

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Speaker 1: to anyone listening this morning who maybe feels that you're

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Speaker 1: more interested in a grand gesture rather than really sorting

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Speaker 1: the issues with not only racism but also with crime

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Speaker 1: and morale in the force.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd have to say morale has actually improved a lot.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit of a myth about our morale is

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Speaker 2: so bad. It's actually really good, and we've got really

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Speaker 2: good officers working incredibly hard. But the problem is they

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Speaker 2: are working hard, and they're working tirelessly and long hours

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Speaker 2: and they're exhausted. So we need to flip it and

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Speaker 2: instead of being reactive and responsive, we need to be

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Speaker 2: proactive and engaging. And that's that community policing model. So

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Speaker 2: I think that please. I know there's a lot of uncertainty,

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Speaker 2: it's ambiguous. It's a big move, but it's going to

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Speaker 2: be a really important move, and hopefully we can see

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Speaker 2: the change over coming years because this is going to

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Speaker 2: be you know, it's not just a policing issue. This

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Speaker 2: is a whole of government, this is non government agencies,

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Speaker 2: this is the community. And I need Aboriginal territory and

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Speaker 2: showing leadership to stop what is that this stuff we're

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Speaker 2: seeing in our community is not normal and we cannot

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Speaker 2: con can no longer accept it.

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Speaker 3: No, it's truly not.

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Speaker 1: I mean even this morning, driving into work, I was

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Speaker 1: near the the Stuart Park shops there and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that people would have called the police because there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of cars around, but there was a man

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Speaker 1: dragging a woman onto the road and you know, like

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Speaker 1: it was clearly a domestic violence incident. And unfortunately, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been at that same intersection about three times where

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Speaker 1: I've seen similar incidents in the last few months. You know,

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Speaker 1: some of what we're seeing around the Northern Territory right now,

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Speaker 1: it's sad, it's unacceptable, and you know the incidents that

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Speaker 1: we're seeing as well are incredibly violent in some cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, it's some really deep issues here about homelessness,

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Speaker 2: vulnerable people who are sleeping rough who have come into town.

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Speaker 2: And that's the incredible work that the Territory Safety Coordination

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Speaker 2: Center's doing with patrollers as well on Laroche a Nation

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Speaker 2: in Darwin to see what the problem profile looks like

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Speaker 2: and accommodate people back home or put them in places

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Speaker 2: of safety. And that's where fundamentally the discussions are around

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Speaker 2: the important stuff is that will stop least seeing people

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Speaker 2: these types of offenses. You see, it's about education, it's

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Speaker 2: about housing, it's about health, and it's about jobs. It's

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Speaker 2: about having a purpose so people don't make poor choices

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Speaker 2: and end up incarcerated and addicted to substances.

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Speaker 1: Well, Police Commissioner Michael Murphy, we are going to have

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Speaker 1: to leave it there. Appreciate your time this morning. Thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for joining us on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Katie, thank you.