1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: In the world of business and startups, how do you 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: turn hard manual effort into effortless momentum. Nathan Barry, the 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: founder and CEO of convert Kit, has found a way, 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: and it all comes down to a concept from physics 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: called a flywheel. So what on earth is a flywheel 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: and how did Nathan use the concept to revolutionize convert 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: Kit's sales process and tobocharge his company's growth. Welcome to 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: On today's quick Win episode, we go back to an 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: interview from the past and I pick out a quick 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: win that you can apply today. In today's show, I 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: speak with Nathan Barry about how he applied flywheels to 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: grow convert Kit. 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so a flywheel is a concert than physics really 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: of taking manual effort and then transferring it into something 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 2: that like either storing the energy or carrying it forward. 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 2: So the first time that I encountered a flywheel was 19 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight and I was in Lisutu, 20 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: which is the landlocked country inside of South Africa, and 21 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 2: we were working at an orphanage and we had drilled 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: a well and we were going to put a pump 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: on top of the well. And Masera, the capital city 24 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 2: where we were at, had electricity, but in the two 25 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 2: weeks we were there, I think it went out like 26 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: eight times. So we didn't really want to put in 27 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: an electric pump on this well, and so I was 28 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: thinking like, okay, we're adding a hand pump, and Jason, 29 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: one of the guys leading our trip, was like, no, no, no, 30 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 2: We're gonna put a flywheel on it. So instead of 31 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: the hand pump, which would be this long handle, you 32 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: go and pump your water and this the handle gives 33 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: you leverage, but there's a direct tie between the effort 34 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: that you put in and the impact or the results 35 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: that you get back. And at the moment you stopped pumping, 36 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: you immediately stopped getting water. And so instead of that, 37 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: the flywheel is this large metal wheel that sits up 38 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: on top of the pump. It's hard to get going initially, 39 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 2: but instead of this linear up and down movement, it 40 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: carries that momentum forward and it builds momentum over time. 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: It still needed input, but I could basically with one 42 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 2: or two fingers, just keep this thing spinning. And so 43 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: that's a metaphor. Obviously, like we get to apply it 44 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: to all these other areas of life and business, and 45 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: like we talked about health and fitness. That's a flywheel. 46 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 2: It is incredibly difficult to get going if you're starting 47 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: with really small changes. You're just saying, oh, I'm gonna 48 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: eat a piece of fruit every day. You can build 49 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 2: on from there. So I really came to three laws 50 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 2: that define a flywheel, especially in the business case. The 51 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: first is every step in a flywheel should flow smoothly 52 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 2: from one into the next. The second law is that 53 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: it should get easier with each rotation, and then the 54 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: third laws it should deliver more with every rotation. So 55 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 2: that's flywheels at a high level. But and we can 56 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: go wherever you'd like from there. 57 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: I would love to get an example from within convert 58 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: Kit in the sales process, because I think everyone listening 59 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: will have some kind of a sales process in their business, 60 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: maybe that are directly involved in sales. How have you 61 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: gone about applying the flywheel concept to driving sales at 62 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: convert Kit. 63 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: One of the biggest things that I did is I 64 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: started direct sales being a content marketer. I was thinking, 65 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to grow through content, right, that is how 66 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: this business is going to grow. Turns out it's really 67 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: really hard to sell software through content, especially software that's 68 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: not very good yet because it's new, and so the 69 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 2: pivot to direct sales really let me grow the company 70 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: and get traction early on, especially because what happens when 71 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: selling through content is if you and I are having 72 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: a conversation. We're sitting across from each other at a 73 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 2: coffee shop and I'm saying, would you like to buy 74 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: convert it become a customer. If you were to like 75 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: look at me and then like push back your chair 76 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: and without saying anything, just get up and leave, that 77 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: would be socially unacceptable on so many levels. Right. If 78 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: I say, hey, will you buy this thing? You were 79 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: obligated by the rules of our society to give me 80 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: a response. It might be like maybe I'll think about 81 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: it or no, but you have to give me a response. 82 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: And whatever response you give me, I can learn from 83 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: that when you think about content marketing. That socially unacceptable 84 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: interaction happens all the time. I can just hit the 85 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 2: back button. I've completely rejected you. You get no feedback, 86 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: and that's what happens on the web. So I love 87 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: it when people will go into direct sales because it 88 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: gets them all of the feedback. So my flywheel for 89 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 2: convertant direct sales like it worked, and then now years later, 90 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: I'm like, why did that work? I'm like, that was 91 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: a flywheel and I didn't even realize it. So I 92 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: started just identifying potential customers. I looked at who was 93 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 2: successful and convert it, and I was like, okay, let 94 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: me find people like them that got me, Like lists 95 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: of men's fashion bloggers in New York Paley Arrecipe blog, 96 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 2: try to get as specific as possible. Then I'd reach 97 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,559 Speaker 2: out with a personal message and I would ask about 98 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: what was frustrating So specifically I'd see that they're using 99 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: mail jump and I'd say, hey, I was wondering whether 100 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: what's your biggest frustration with using mailchip. The reason I 101 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 2: ask is I'm working building a tool called convert it 102 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: and it's used by and I would drop my the 103 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: only two relevant names that I had that was a 104 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: customer or someone else, and I just love to get 105 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: your feedback, right, So I'd start with that it had 106 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: a pretty good reply right, and people would say, oh, 107 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: I'm really frustrated with it's hard to tag and organize 108 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: my audience, it's hard to set up automations that are 109 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: relevant to my subscribers, things like that, which very conveniently. 110 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: I'd built the product because I use mail Chip, but 111 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: I was frustrated by these exact same things, and so 112 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 2: I'd say like, oh, here's how we're solving. I'd love 113 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 2: to get on a call and show that to you. 114 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 2: And that worked really well, and at some point I'd 115 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 2: ask for the sale and they would usually say no 116 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: now thankfully because we're on a call, they had to 117 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: tell me why. And the reason they said why was 118 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: usually it's too much work to migrate. We've been using 119 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: this other tool for three years, five years, and we're 120 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 2: deeply embedded, until finally, like, out of desperation, like it's 121 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: not that much work, blah blah blah, I'll do it 122 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: for you for free. And that's where our concierge migration 123 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: was born. And I would pull up their mail Chip 124 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: account and their can Work account here and another like copy 125 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: and paste over their emails and then edit all their 126 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 2: forms and switch those over. And what that did is 127 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 2: That's how I landed the customer, and then I would 128 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 2: get a testimonial and the recommendation, Hey, who else should 129 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 2: I get on? Convert it? That recommendation to other people 130 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: completed the loop right. It brings my flywheel background to 131 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: the beginning, because then now I've identified new customers. And 132 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: so if we go through our three laws for this 133 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: direct sales flywheel first is every step moves smoothly one 134 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: into the next. Right, migration goes to testimonial, which leads 135 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: to new customers or new referrals that I can then 136 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: talk to next. It gets easier with every rotation because 137 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: my prospecting got more dialed in my cold email, I 138 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 2: knew what worked. My sales calls got a lot better, 139 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: the product got better, and then it also drove more 140 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: results with every rotation because I could reach more and 141 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: more people. Word of mouth started to kick in a 142 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: little bit, and so I just noticed that that flywheel 143 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: was so hard to turn it first, but it got 144 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: just a tiny bit easier with every rotation up until 145 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: the point that we've just had a huge amount of 146 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: momentum in word of mouth. 147 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: That's such a great story, such a great example. I 148 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: love that I hope you enjoying today's Quick Win episode. 149 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: If you would like to hear the full chat with Nathan, 150 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: you can find a link to that in the show notes. 151 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 152 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: you work, can Live. I write a short weekly newsletter 153 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. 154 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. 155 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: That's Amantha dot com. If you like today's show, make 156 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: sure you hit follow on your podcast app to be 157 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded 158 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part of 159 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: the Coulan Nation. A big thank you to my editor 160 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,119 Speaker 1: Rowena Murray and Martin Nimber for doing the sound mix.