WEBVTT - 14: Do You Believe Me Now? 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:06.440 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:11.799 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:19.040 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:29.400 lifeline dot org dot AU. A twenty four year old 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:35.960 devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:45.240 bags pack car running her daughters strapped into the backseat. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:49.080 Mom told me that she needed to go back inside 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:49.880 to grab something. 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:50.680 Panic. 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.280 Amy is dead, Sir aim his dead? 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:57.080 Eight confusion about five minutes they sit not to suicide. 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.280 One hundred percent. This is emergency. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:05.360 What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy? 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:11.000 The Truth about Amy? 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:17.120 Episode fourteen. 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:21.400 I'm Liam Bartlett. 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:31.720 And I'm Alison Sandy. 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:38.240 Female fifteen, jud female Bustleton female thirty eight. 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.880 This is the place, gender, and age of people who 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:47.360 have died in Western Australia this year as a result 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:55.320 of domestic violence. As their details are called out, loved 0:01:55.320 --> 0:02:00.440 ones place a flour on a cardboard cutout, representing them 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:05.240 to be precise right where their heart would be. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:11.280 Every year in Perth, the Western Australian Center for Women's 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:14.639 Safety and well Being holds a Silent March. 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.880 Stop Them, Silence, Stop. 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.920 The violence, not only to honor those whose lives have 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.120 been lost at the hands of abuses, but to raise 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:31.960 awareness about how prevalent this is silence. So far this year, 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:37.760 there have been sixteen deaths in Wa alone, including Jennifer 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.320 and Gretel Patelchek Floris. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:47.280 Eighteen Florians. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:53.040 Fifteen as their details are called. Twenty seven year old 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:58.640 Ariel Bombara tearfully puts flowers to each of her friend's hearts. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:05.120 Jennifer was her mum's best friend, Gretel her daughter. They 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:09.840 were shot to death by Ariel's father, Mark Bombara at 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.280 the end of his search for them. Live from Perth 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:19.480 seven Yews with Rick Garden and Susannika Good Evening. 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.040 For the first time we've heard what life was really 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.520 like under the roof of double murderer Mark Bombara. His 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.480 daughter Today detailed the reign of terror he inflicted on 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.239 their family before he tried to hunt down his ex wife. 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:38.320 Sadly, Ariel can't help but blame herself for what happened, knowing. 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.760 Two lives were taken instead of my own and my 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.080 mom's because I was too good at hiding from him. 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.600 And hating myself for never considering that he would kill 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.840 other people if he couldn't find us. 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.680 In front of a crowd of hundreds, Ariel Bombara describes 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.960 the actions of a monster, a monster that was her father. 0:03:58.480 --> 0:03:59.280 My father was a. 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:03.480 Dictator, and his coercive and controlling behaviors were constant. I 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.520 remember being whipped with belts, tied to my chair until 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:08.920 I ate every piece of food on my plane. He 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.960 thought women were less than dogshit, and he made it 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:14.640 clear in front of his daughters. 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.560 Aril knew her father was dangerous, and she and her 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.400 mother told police they feared that he would kill. 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.720 After trying unsuccessfully to convince the police to take any 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:25.120 action to protect. 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.960 Us against him back in March, we had to disappear. 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:30.920 I knew the only way to make sure he couldn't 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.000 kill us was to make sure he couldn't find us. 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.440 Speaking at Today's March against Domestic and Family Violence, Bombara 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.760 recounted that horrific night in May when her father shot 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.320 dead her mother's best friend, Jennifer Ptelchek, and her eighteen 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.560 year old daughter in their flory at home before turning 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:51.760 the gun on himself. Police did not intervene sooner because 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.160 the insidious abuse that he inflicted leading up to the incident, 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:59.440 known as coercive control, is not illegal, and while the 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.719 government now agrees that it should be, it won't commit 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:04.200 to pushing through legislation. 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.280 Knowing that Jenny and Grettel lost their lives in our 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.880 places filled me with both devastation and an overwhelming sense 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:12.719 of duty to do everything. 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.960 In my power to prevent this from ever happening again. 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.279 Last year, after a state of murders, the government developed 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.480 the WA Family and Domestic Violence System Reform. 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.320 Plan, So now I'm asking what is being done to 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:25.960 implement it. 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.520 I believe in the reform of our systems so long 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.000 as there is a commitment to adequately fund it. I 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.440 believe that we as a collective have the power to 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.120 make a real difference. But to do so, we need 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.760 to believe in victims, survivors and their right. 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:42.080 To be heard and supported. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.279 We need to believe in the services and systems that 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.040 can help victims, and in the capacity for change in perpetrators. 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.240 I hope you'll join me in this fight, not just 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:53.880 for me, but for all of us. 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.799 Because violence against women and children is everyone's problem. 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.760 Coerce of control. Laws protecting domestic violence victims have been 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:06.000 introduced in New South Wales and Queensland, but not w 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:12.400 Way except here. The Seven Years Journalist pushes Prevention of 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:16.640 Family and Domestic Violence Minister Sabine Winton to commit to 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.520 a date to roll out a similar legislation. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:20.560 Coursive control. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.599 Legislation could have saved these two people that were killed 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:27.160 by this man. And you know that how I don't 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:29.840 know that, but I know that it's a real, tangible, 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:33.080 actual consequence for people like this man. And why then 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.960 will you not commit to a date when these laws 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:36.560 will be introduced. 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.799 Our government has permitted to criminalizing coersim control. 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.719 We will do it in a staged way. We will 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:45.440 do it in a way where we will. 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.000 Know, we will get results, asking why you commit to 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.320 a date and will also make sure that when we 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:54.880 introduce it that we don't further put at risk victims survivors. 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.560 The system doesn't protect us and puts the owners on 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:02.680 women to managements that behavior rather than holding perpetrators accountable. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:04.800 Natcy, can I ask your proper question? 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:08.080 Amy's mom, Nancy and her best friend Aaron Gower, were 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.880 also at this event and understand how frustrating it was 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:16.520 for arial bombards, and despite a new investigation into Amy's 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:20.760 death by Wa police, they remain fearful that police will 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.280 continue to ignore key evidence supporting homicide. 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.000 I know there were previous investigations, but more information has 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:32.120 come out now since the podcast has aired, that you know, 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.800 should have been found out while those other two investigations 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:35.200 were happening. 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:37.600 The investigation being mishandled by police. 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:39.520 How does that evenpact your family? 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.560 It's so hard, you know, we haven't been able to 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:48.600 grieve properly because we're fighting constantly. So it's just it's exhausting. 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:55.040 Really, I would love to hear the police commissioner apologize. 0:07:55.360 --> 0:08:00.640 I don't want no letter of regret. I want an 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.239 apology aim. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.160 His daughters, apology. 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.400 They disserve an apology for the big mess up then 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.239 I happened that night. We wouldn't be standing here if 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.400 it was conducted properly, but it wasn't. 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:22.720 With respect to coercive control, one single piece of legislation 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:23.640 will not solve this. 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.720 Police Minister Paul Papalia responds to a scrum of journalists 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.440 asking if enough is being done to address domestic violence. 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.679 I know that your officers know that they do all 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:36.880 this hard work and then it gets handed over to 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:42.160 the courts and then the magistrates slap these violent very signs. Right, 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.839 So we can do a community education campaign, But what. 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.600 Of the magistrates When I've seen the training that's delivered 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.000 to officers in the academy and how significantly that has changed. 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:55.920 I'm not sure that the courts. 0:08:55.559 --> 0:09:00.120 Are aware or have been provided the similar sort of training. 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.000 And I'll be encouraging the Attorney General to speak with 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.480 the heads of the different courts. 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.120 And the Chief Justice wasn't even here today. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.000 Chief Justice is dedicated to dealing with family and domestic guidance, 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:12.920 so there's probably a reason for him. 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.040 Not Then we will talk to the town generally have 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:15.800 about it. 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.040 I have taken before, but I would like to see 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.600 magistrates and judges be forwarded the opportunity to witness what 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.800 I witnessed at the academy, so they understand that police training, 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.440 police capability has moved and has changed, and then the 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.400 courts can reflect that knowledge. At the moment, I'm not 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.640 sure that they are aware of what is provided to 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.439 the police and then what is then presented to them 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:37.960 in the courts. 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.040 We'll have more on the WA Attorney General later in 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:42.480 this episode. 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:46.319 Thank you for welcoming me. Laura Richards, criminal behavioral analysts 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.640 and expert in domestic violence and coercive control and stalking 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:52.120 and domestic commicide. 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:56.040 Meanwhile, as promised, we caught up with internationally acclaimed criminal 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:00.400 behavioral analyst Laura Richards, who had a a lot to 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.120 say about domestic violence and the way it's being handled 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:05.040 by authorities. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.480 Well, firstly, I just want to mention, having reviewed and 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:14.440 analyzed thousands of murders committed by men killing women and children, 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.480 it's not a drugs related issue. And I do want 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.000 to make that very clear because I have heard people 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:25.600 continuously say, oh, it's this, it's alcohol, it's drugs, and 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.600 actually it's not. That plays a role when it aggravates things. 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:32.800 It's an aggravating factor, but it's not a causal factor. 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:36.680 The behavior is the causal factor, and it's things around 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:41.120 power and control, a male entitlement, and the lack of accountability. 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.520 So when they are abusive and violent, there's no accountability 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.439 through the criminal justice system. 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:48.560 And what that. 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.040 Basically says to the perpetrator is carry on, carry on, 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:54.480 because it's not important enough. And what that says to 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.319 the female victim is you're not important enough and you 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:00.240 don't matter. So you have victims who then don't want 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.240 to report, and you have male perpetrators in the main 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.440 who just feel that they're untouchable and can do what 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.640 they want, set within a culture of misogyny and male entitlement. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.560 So I do just want to make that clear, because 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.960 it's the same all across the world. There is nothing 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.760 new here other than the lack of accountability which has 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:25.839 been consistent and the misogynistic elements that create male entitlement 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.280 and green light these offenders. So I think it is 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.000 important that you look at the data and the facts 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.800 and the evidence, and that experts talk about domestic violence 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:40.960 and domestic homicide and femicide and given very clear indication 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.760 of what we see in these cases, rather than people 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:48.040 just speculating or quontificating because they had one case and 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.520 there was a drug element to it and therefore they 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.560 think it is drug related. It's an aggravating feature, but 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:55.360 it's not causal. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:12:01.480 Laura acknowledgers frontline emergency officers often to make snap decisions, 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.960 which is why their training is so integral. 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.319 Well, it's what I used to see when I trained detectives, 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.000 and I'd go up to detective training school and we'd 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.360 have one case, and a detective before me would talk 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.360 to the incoming detectives as if that one case would 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.440 repeat again and again and that was just one case. 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.440 You know, It's like a case of false allegation, where 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.040 you say, false allegations always look like this, and then 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.840 it becomes the norm where that's not the case at all. 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.480 You have to look at lots of cases together, which 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.920 I've spent my career doing looking at thousands of domestic 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.080 violence murders, and that's what I've spent my time at 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:40.559 New Scotland Yard doing of unraveling the psychological autopsy of 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.880 what's gone on so that we can get into intervention 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.880 and prevention, so that we do it through data, not 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:47.880 just through the prism of murder, but look at other 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.679 cases as well, so that we understand what the patterns 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.640 look like, so that we can get into early identification, 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.760 assessment and management. And I think sometimes people are just 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.440 overconfident in airing their one case or there are two 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.120 cases or a handful of cases, and thinks that that 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.720 just replicates and therefore you get these generalizations which really 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.840 aren't good. I've much rather the experts were spoken to 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.400 in this niche, and I think in Australia that's been 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.680 one of the problems of not listening to the experts 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.040 who do this day in day out, and they should 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:27.640 be advising on domestic homicides and so called suicides. They 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.600 should be the one the fatality reviews. And that was 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.120 a process I started at New Scotland Yard and then 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.000 it became a national process of domestic homicide review where 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.960 we made it very clear within the legislation experts should 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.720 be co opted to sit on those groups to give 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.960 that expertise because a lot of people still don't understand 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.400 co werse of control and stalking and it's really important 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.480 that we do have that expert voice that's victim led, 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.400 because obviously we do have it oftentimes the cases where 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.080 we get too focused on the perpetrators where we must 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.040 talk about the victim. And what I really like about 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.400 what you've been doing for Amy is giving her a 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.880 voice and a voice that she hasn't had, although she's 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:15.080 had relatives trying to bang the drama. Actually it needed 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.480 a much bigger platform to say, we'll hang on a minute, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.080 are we asking the right questions here? Is there a 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:24.960 critical thinking process and a critical lens that we need 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.160 to apply, And this is a case which really lends 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:32.120 itself well to having that critical lens and having experts 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.840 talk about what we see in these types of cases 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:37.760 and what were the questions that should have been asked 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:38.360 at the time. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.560 So I'm glad you've mentioned that because the other issue 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.480 that we have with this case is the feeling from 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.320 the family, and I think they've got a good reason 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.600 to feel this way that WI Police, given what happened 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.800 at the beginning, that they don't feel that they can 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:58.280 trust them to carry the case further, even to the 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.440 point now they're reinvestigating. I guess is that something that 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:05.160 you've come across a bit where you know that's distrust 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.000 are suppose of authorities. 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.520 Absolutely, and from everything I've seen in this case, there's 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:14.600 good reason to distrust the authorities, and it's one of 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:16.640 the reasons when I was at New Scotland Yard we 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.240 started independent advisory groups in the wake of Stephen Lawrence 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.960 being killed and the Metropolitan Police was found through a 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:28.200 public inquiry to be institutionally racist, and so the Racial 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.920 and Violent Crime Task Force was set up, and within 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.000 that the Adeputy Assistant Commissioner John Grieve had the foresight 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:38.320 to create critical friends, so people who would critically and 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:43.280 independently evaluate us and our decisions, both at the local 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.160 level and the strategic level. And I think that that's 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:50.600 really important to ensure that you don't become myopic and 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.280 you haven't got everybody in the room agreeing with you, 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.240 because ultimately, what I've seen in this case, in Amy's 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.880 case in particular, is you had two detectives who were 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:05.200 experienced attend the scene, and you had two junior officers 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.080 who were detectives who were in training six months in 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.400 and then you have a lead detective, Detective Kirkman, saying 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:16.640 one thing and then everyone agreeing with him. And that 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:22.440 happens a lot, and it's in their career future to agree, 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.400 particularly when we go back in the day, rather than 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.920 having a dissenting voice who might say we need to 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.400 question this, we actually do need to speak to other 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.000 members of the family and get a history here. We 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.040 should really do the toxicology, we should do the forensics, 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.239 we need to know in her bag, there was the passport. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.560 We need to think about the fact that she was 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.760 actually exiting the relationship with the children, and the bags 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.320 packed and gifts, and that she had future planned. We 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.080 need to question the crime scene. And actually, we can't 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:56.280 make this determination in fifteen minutes. Let's take our time. 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:01.040 Laura then refers to the Internal Affairs Unit report relating 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:06.160 to the conduct of detectives Kirkman and Wiederman in Amy's case. 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:11.280 You'll recall that investigation found that they both neglected their 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.080 duty in their handling of Amy's case and were referred 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:20.040 to the Integrity Review Panel for consideration of an Assistant 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.879 Commissioner's warning notes. Doesn't sound like much, does it. 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.840 There was a detective I think it was Detective Pover 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:32.280 who effectively said when he was interviewed by Internal Affairs 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:36.919 that he didn't remember anything because he didn't take notes 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.680 and he was six months in I probation. He said 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.040 he didn't speak to witnesses, he didn't go into the house, 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.359 he didn't assess the scene, but he did believe that 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:50.760 David and Gareth were telling the truth. But he can't 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.520 recall the reasons for the determination that it was a 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.760 non suspicious death. But he disagreed it was a premature 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.760 decision to say it was non suspicious and he had 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.840 very little recall, but he seems to remember vividly driving 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:09.440 away from the scene, happy the correct decision had been made. 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.080 That is confounding to me, because you know, I have 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.800 reviewed many, many cases and for him not to remember 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:19.600 so many things but remembered that it was the right decision. 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.800 And that's the problem when you've got everyone agreeing, but 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:28.080 you've got three uniformed officers saying differently and that their 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.120 voices weren't heard. So that's also why you have these 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.760 critical friends the advisory groups that New Scotland Yard started, 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.760 but also on the domestic homicide review panels, we have 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.560 independent advisors and family members who are also there to 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.400 give a very clear understanding of what was going on 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.520 because we know that victims were talked to them before 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.639 they talked to the police, and so it's really important 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.399 if you attend a scene where a young woman, a 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:01.840 mother as well, has suddenly and unexpectedly died in such 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:06.720 unusual circumstances, and yet further questions weren't asked of the 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.640 men who were at the scene at the time, and 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:14.119 a detective who doesn't interview them determines that there witnesses 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.879 are not suspects. That is a very confusing thing to me, 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.360 because you would want to get as much information as 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.800 possible in order to make an informed decision and write 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.600 up your decision log I mean, we're talking about twenty fourteen, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.359 We're not talking about the nineteen seventies, the nineteen eighties, 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.240 whereas the uniform officers who were first on the scene 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:43.680 were very uncomfortable with what they saw, given that the 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.960 engine was running, the children were in the car, everything 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.800 was packed up. There were signs of a violent struggle, 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.000 not necessarily in the bedroom, but there was glass smashed. 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.160 One of the men gave an account that Amy tried 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:01.640 to head butt David Simmons. And you've got a door 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:06.520 knob missing, and you've got a young mother who, for 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.760 all intense purposes, police are being told, had packed the 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.480 car up but went back into the house and then 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.720 shot herself in the face, which is again highly unusual 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:20.360 for that to happen. That's not something I always look 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.080 for the one percent of cases, and they are out there. 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.840 But for me, this was all the things that I 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.119 found out initially, which is what led me to post 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:34.000 on social media was that she died suddenly and unexpectedly, 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:38.919 and two men's narrative were believed and they were treated 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:39.719 as witnesses. 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.120 Yeah, it is a standing. And of course the one 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.520 officer who did stand his ground and keep saying to 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.440 this day that he believes that suicide, he's gone. He's 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.520 no longer in the police force. So obviously it's not 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:52.880 good to go against a grain. 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:55.399 It's not It can be very career limiting, and I 0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:00.320 know that from having worked in it. The institutionalization is 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:05.880 profound and severe and if you have a dissenting voice, 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.160 you do tend to be shut down. And that's highly 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.760 problematic when you're talking about people's lives, and more in 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.399 particular women's lives, because I do think that there is 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.440 a huge issue and a poor trap record of responding 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.720 to women, and WA police have that same trap record, 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.960 And anyone can just do a Google search and find 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:31.439 three cases immediately where Lynn Cannon who was threatened by 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.359 her ex partner threatened by him with a knife, a 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:39.159 call to police was made, they didn't respond, and now 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.119 it's just been announced that an inquest is underway. Could 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.720 WA police have done more then? Another case, the legal 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.920 reason she hasn't been named, but a domestic violence call 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.520 out and yet the police didn't respond and she was 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.199 killed by Warwick Walker Bear in twenty twenty one, and 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.399 more recently the Ariel Bombara case who alerted police that 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.400 her father was a threat and she had called three times, 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.240 was concerned, and he ended up killing a mother and 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:10.640 a daughter, Jenny and Gretel who was eighteen, who were 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:15.080 trying to protect her mother. And the trap record of 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:20.120 not believing women and not responding everyone sees it. And 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.600 that's the point when people say, well, why didn't she 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.240 call if there was domestic violence, no cause to police? 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:30.760 Oh okay, no history. So it is complex, but when 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.280 snap decisions are made at a scene within fifteen minutes, 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:37.480 you're going to catch a cold on that. Ultimately, with 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:41.480 these cases without a decision log clearly written up, and 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.800 you're missing the very unusual circumstances of a car running 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.360 with children in it, with future plans being laid down 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:54.520 to exit, separation and finality being high risk factors and 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:58.960 coerci of control to femicide, and women are much more 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:02.480 likely to be killed. Six percent of murders happen on separation, 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:07.199 and yet they made a very quick judgment that this 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:11.199 was a suicide without knowing any of the history, and 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:13.240 that is extremely concerning. 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:17.399 Okay, so how can the situation be redeemed? I mean, 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:21.080 I guess the point I say here is they're reinvestigating. 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:24.720 There was evidence that was misterior ignored, which is what 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:27.520 we've highlighted in the podcast, as well as new evidence. 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:32.280 But there still seems to be this reluctance to debate 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:36.119 from the suicide theory. And in this case, it comes 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:40.160 down to ultimately one man who will determine whether this 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:43.800 can proceed, and he's the Director of Public Prosecutions. The 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.879 police will, as I say, they'll prefer an update, a brief, 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.160 he will consider it. They have a little coverletter giving 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:53.080 their thoughts and then yay or nay, and they generally 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.000