WEBVTT - Are Australian workers underpaid?

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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<v Speaker 1>Bunjelung Calkotin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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<v Speaker 1>Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning, Ann, Welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 2>the second of November.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Sam, I'm Emma Gillespie. I'm the deputy editor here

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<v Speaker 3>at the Daily OS.

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<v Speaker 2>Nice to have you on m It feels like almost

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<v Speaker 2>every few weeks that a different underpayment story hits the headlines.

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<v Speaker 2>This week, a lawsuit was launched against supermarket chain Aldi

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<v Speaker 2>for allegedly underpaying workers up to one hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>million dollars. There's even the story this week about an

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<v Speaker 2>underpayment issue in the Federal Department of Employment and Workplace

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<v Speaker 2>Relations and they're the body responsible for ensuring payment conditions

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<v Speaker 2>are met in the public service. In today's deep dive,

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<v Speaker 2>Emma will sit down with the new Fair Work omitsman

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<v Speaker 2>and a booth and she's the person charged with monitoring,

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<v Speaker 2>investigating and enforcing Australia's workplace laws. And they're going to

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<v Speaker 2>discuss why under payments happen from small businesses but all

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<v Speaker 2>the way through to multinational giants. We're going to get

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<v Speaker 2>to that interview in just a second, but first, Emma,

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<v Speaker 2>what is making her lines this morning?

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<v Speaker 3>A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces has defended a

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<v Speaker 3>decision to strike the Jibalia refugee camp in Gaza, where

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<v Speaker 3>the spokesperson said a senior Hamas commander and dozens of

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<v Speaker 3>Hamas forces were hiding. The Hamas run Gaz and Health

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<v Speaker 3>Ministry says at least fifty people were killed in the

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<v Speaker 3>strike and that the total death toll in Gaza is

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<v Speaker 3>over eight thousand, five hundred. Meanwhile, US Secretary of State

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<v Speaker 3>Anthony Blinkoln will return to the region tomorrow to continue negotiations.

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<v Speaker 2>Australia's High Court has ruled that convicted terrorist Abdul na

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<v Speaker 2>Sir Ben Rica's citizenship should be restored. In a decision

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<v Speaker 2>handed down yesterday, six of the High Court's seven judges

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<v Speaker 2>ruled the Australian government was unable to strip Benbricker of

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<v Speaker 2>his citizenship. A move taken by then Home Affairs Minister

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Duddon. In twenty twenty PM Anthony Abernezi said his

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<v Speaker 2>government will consider the implications of the decision.

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<v Speaker 3>The International Monetary Fund says national inflation is still too

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<v Speaker 3>high and has recommended the Reserve Bank continue to lift

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<v Speaker 3>interest rates in Australia as well as introduce further government

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<v Speaker 3>measures to limit inflation. The RBA will meet next Tuesday

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<v Speaker 3>for its monthly cash rate meeting, with experts tipping a

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<v Speaker 3>rate rise to a twelve year high of four point

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<v Speaker 3>three five percent. Federal Treasurer Jim Chalmers said the independent

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<v Speaker 3>IMF report supports the government's strategy.

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<v Speaker 2>And today's good news. A recycling scheme offering a ten

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<v Speaker 2>cent refund for recycled drink containers has launched in Victoria.

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<v Speaker 2>Most aluminium, glass, plastic and liquid drink containers can be

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<v Speaker 2>returned to reverse vending machines and over the counter sites

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<v Speaker 2>under this new system, which is hoped to cut the

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<v Speaker 2>amount of LISSA in the States down by half.

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<v Speaker 3>If it feels like you're seeing underpayment stories in the

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<v Speaker 3>news every other week at the moment, you're not wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>The fair work onmbardsman says that in the last year

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<v Speaker 3>they found more than five hundred million dollars worth of underpayments.

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<v Speaker 3>The Fair Work Onbardsmen helps Australians with things like advice, assistants,

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<v Speaker 3>guidance for employers and employees to help us understand workplace laws.

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<v Speaker 3>Anna Booth is the Fair Work Onbardsman and I'm throwing

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<v Speaker 3>her on the deep end today. Anna has been in

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<v Speaker 3>the role as Ombardsman at Fair Work for nine weeks,

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<v Speaker 3>but she was willing to take on all of our questions.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome to the podcast. Let's start off with the role

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<v Speaker 3>of the Fair Work Ombardsman. It sounds very serious. What

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<v Speaker 3>is it that you do and how do you know

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<v Speaker 3>that you're doing a good job?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh that's two questions. So the Fairwork Combardsman is a

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<v Speaker 4>person myself and also an organization with a thousand people,

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<v Speaker 4>and we're the workplace regulator and we're responsible for making

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<v Speaker 4>sure that people get the terms and conditions that they're

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<v Speaker 4>entitled to in Australian workplaces, whether that comes from a

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<v Speaker 4>statute like the Fair Work Act, or whether it comes

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<v Speaker 4>from an award like the Hospitality Award, or whether it

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<v Speaker 4>comes from an enterprise agreement. We measure our success based

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<v Speaker 4>on the number of people who we give assistance to

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<v Speaker 4>and the amount of money we recover. But really our

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<v Speaker 4>purpose is to create harmonious, cooperative, and productive and compliant workplaces,

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<v Speaker 4>and honestly, it's a little hard to to know whether

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<v Speaker 4>we have created that in any one year, but we

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<v Speaker 4>hope that what we do goes towards creating workplaces where

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<v Speaker 4>people are kind to one another.

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<v Speaker 3>We've seen underpayment stories in the news for years now,

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<v Speaker 3>but as recently as this week, why do these stories

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<v Speaker 3>keep appearing in our news cycle? Why does this keep happening?

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<v Speaker 4>That's a very big question, one of the big drivers.

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<v Speaker 4>I guess on two sides, So you've got an employer

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<v Speaker 4>with obligations to provide terms and conditions, and the one

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<v Speaker 4>that we're most used to hearing about is pay. And

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<v Speaker 4>then you've got employees who are entitled to receive those

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<v Speaker 4>terms and conditions, and if you like, you know that's

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<v Speaker 4>the essence of the work wage bargain. On the worker side,

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<v Speaker 4>there are lots of workers who are quite vulnerable. Young

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<v Speaker 4>workers are particularly vulnerable, particularly young workers who are either

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<v Speaker 4>still studying or coming into their first job, and that's

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<v Speaker 4>because they may not know what their rights are, or

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<v Speaker 4>they might be afraid to speak up even if they

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<v Speaker 4>do know what their rights are and they feel they're

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<v Speaker 4>not getting them. On the employer's side, there are lots

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<v Speaker 4>of different drivers for underpayment. Sometimes it's just a mistake

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<v Speaker 4>that's happened within payroll. Sometimes it's because they don't have

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<v Speaker 4>the proper payroll systems that capture all the work that

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<v Speaker 4>people do and the correct pay that they should be

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<v Speaker 4>being paid. And sometimes it's because they are deliberately underpaying

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<v Speaker 4>so that they can either earn more profit or they

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<v Speaker 4>can stay in business.

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<v Speaker 3>You've said before that it's directors and CEOs that should

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<v Speaker 3>ultimately be the ones responsible for breaches when these companies

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<v Speaker 3>are found to have underpaid their stuff. What does that

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<v Speaker 3>responsibility look like?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so, I mean that's the fundamental emma that you know,

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<v Speaker 4>if you set up a business, even if it's a

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<v Speaker 4>tiny little business, you have a lot of inputs, and

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<v Speaker 4>one of those inputs is people. You've got to responsibility

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<v Speaker 4>to know what the right rate of pay in terms

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<v Speaker 4>and conditions are for your employee or employees, and then

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<v Speaker 4>have the administrative systems, whether they're automatic or whether they're manual.

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<v Speaker 4>You still just have to have the routines to make

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<v Speaker 4>sure that when someone comes to work, you pay them,

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<v Speaker 4>and you pay them correctly.

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<v Speaker 3>In the last financial year, your team uncovered over five

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<v Speaker 3>hundred million dollars worth of unpaid wages. That sounds like

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of money. Is that a figure that is

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<v Speaker 3>particularly bad worse than previous years? Where are we at

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<v Speaker 3>in terms of progress on this issue?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So what's really interesting is I've only been in

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<v Speaker 4>this job. This is the kind of the middle of

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<v Speaker 4>my ninth week on the job, and I didn't realize

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<v Speaker 4>that the last two years, where we have recovered a

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<v Speaker 4>billion dollars each year half a billion for workers, that

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<v Speaker 4>that was more in the last two years than in

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<v Speaker 4>the previous twelve years put together. And it seems like

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<v Speaker 4>the big contributor to that is very large companies discovering

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<v Speaker 4>that they're not paying people correctly. And that's surprising because

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<v Speaker 4>those companies do have the capital and the reserves to

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<v Speaker 4>invest properly in systems, but apparently some of them haven't been.

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<v Speaker 3>I know it hasn't been very long into the new gig,

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<v Speaker 3>a couple of months, but with your background in fair

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<v Speaker 3>work and given what you've seen in the last nine weeks.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you confident that fair Work is catching all of

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<v Speaker 3>the breaches?

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<v Speaker 4>I am actually not confident that we are seeing everything

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<v Speaker 4>there is to see. That's for sure. We are recovering

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<v Speaker 4>a lot, but I think there probably is more to recover.

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<v Speaker 4>And of course our prize is compliance that companies are

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<v Speaker 4>putting the systems in place that they can find out

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<v Speaker 4>if there are any mistakes being made. One of the

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<v Speaker 4>biggest investments that the Farewell comferenceman makes is in education

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<v Speaker 4>and advice. We enter into enforceable undertakings with large companies.

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<v Speaker 4>We put a lot of public money into verifying exactly

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<v Speaker 4>what the underpayment has been in that particular entity, and

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<v Speaker 4>quite often we find out that there's actually more money

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<v Speaker 4>that needs to be paid back than the company has identified.

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<v Speaker 4>So there's a lot of different aspects to it, but

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<v Speaker 4>the real prize is in people not making mistakes.

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<v Speaker 3>The Employment Minister Tony Burke has suggested himself that most

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<v Speaker 3>underpayments are a mistake by employers. Do you agree with that?

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<v Speaker 4>A piece of work done by an academic called Stephen

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<v Speaker 4>Kliborn at the University of Sydney, where he interviewed a

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<v Speaker 4>large number of employers that particular piece of work found

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<v Speaker 4>of the employers interviewed that most of them were aware

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<v Speaker 4>they were under paying. But he might have also been

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<v Speaker 4>interviewing a particular cohort in a particular sector. So I

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<v Speaker 4>don't want to contradict my minister. But equally I don't

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<v Speaker 4>want to make something up. I don't know. I can

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<v Speaker 4>only tell you what's Stephen clever and found in his research.

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<v Speaker 4>But in the future, if the recent legislation becomes law,

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<v Speaker 4>we will have to find a way of forming a

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<v Speaker 4>view about whether there's intent. Obviously, in the future we

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<v Speaker 4>will be actually able to say what proportion of prosecutions

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<v Speaker 4>on the basis of the acts that were intentional.

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<v Speaker 3>You've touched on sort of the federal government proposing to

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<v Speaker 3>make wage theft a criminal offense. What are your thoughts

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<v Speaker 3>on introducing some harsher, more tangible penalties for the companies

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<v Speaker 3>and the directors responsible for underpayment. Are we talking a

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<v Speaker 3>slap on the risk a fine? Should they face jail time?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, look, the Fairwork Combradceman has welcomed the increased penalties

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<v Speaker 4>and that obviously that's a full range of penalties and

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<v Speaker 4>in an extreme case, of criminal liability could include jail.

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<v Speaker 4>We've welcomed it because not that we want to see

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<v Speaker 4>necessarily people punished for punishment's sake, but we really want

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<v Speaker 4>to see, as we discussed earlier in the interview, the

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<v Speaker 4>landscape change. We want voluntary compliance. We want employers to

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<v Speaker 4>be paying attention and being very careful and paying their

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<v Speaker 4>people correctly. And the evidence does suggest that high fines

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<v Speaker 4>are at a terrence. What has to go with that,

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<v Speaker 4>and i'll quote the academic Stephen Cliborn again, is to

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<v Speaker 4>have awareness and expectation in the workplace community that there

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<v Speaker 4>will be enforcement of those laws. If people think that

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<v Speaker 4>they won't be caught, it wouldn't really matter how high

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<v Speaker 4>the fine was, it won't make any difference. So it's

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<v Speaker 4>putting the two together that are important. But certainly those

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<v Speaker 4>things first. The increase in penalties is welcome.

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<v Speaker 3>And we're seeing particular industries with higher rates of underpayment

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<v Speaker 3>claims than others, you know, the university sect and retail, supermarkets, cafes, restaurants.

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<v Speaker 3>These are the sectors that seem to come up in

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<v Speaker 3>the news a lot. Why do you think that some

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<v Speaker 3>sectors struggle with this more than others.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there's different situations or different circumstances facing these different sectors.

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<v Speaker 4>So you've mentioned universities. There is a very high proportion

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<v Speaker 4>of casual academic staff teaching students in our universities, much

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<v Speaker 4>more than you'd think, and it seems to have crept

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<v Speaker 4>up on us. And at the same time, universities have

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<v Speaker 4>let local managers take charge of the employment and payment

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<v Speaker 4>arrangements for those casuals and that has led to a

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<v Speaker 4>high degree inconsistency and often quite serious contraventions in restaurants

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<v Speaker 4>and cafes. The different kind of drivers, they're often small business,

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<v Speaker 4>they are often economically challenged, they're the very high turnover

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<v Speaker 4>of those businesses, low barriers entry, and so those things

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<v Speaker 4>all contribute. They lay the groundwork really for underpayments to occur.

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<v Speaker 3>What about young people? Are they particularly vulnerable to underpayment issues?

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<v Speaker 4>They really are. Our definition of young workers is fifteen

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<v Speaker 4>to twenty four. We had five thousand anonymous calls from

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<v Speaker 4>young workers last year and that's thirty four percent of

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<v Speaker 4>all our anonymous reports, so they're quite prone to report anonymously.

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<v Speaker 4>We found that thirty percent of those young workers were

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<v Speaker 4>employed in the accommodation and food services sector, another eleven

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<v Speaker 4>percent in construction, and they are another eleven percent in retail.

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<v Speaker 4>And those young workers, if it is their first job,

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<v Speaker 4>they are often uncertain of their rights. They're often afraid

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<v Speaker 4>to speak up because they do want to keep their job.

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<v Speaker 4>We also want to make it clear that it is

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<v Speaker 4>an offense to treat anyone unfairly or adversely just because

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<v Speaker 4>they ask about their rights. My own son has had

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<v Speaker 4>that experience on a building site many years ago when

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<v Speaker 4>he opened his phone to find out what his order

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<v Speaker 4>rate should be, and he happened to open the cfmu's

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<v Speaker 4>website because he found that to be a useful place

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:19.000
<v Speaker 4>to find out information, and he was ordered off the site. So,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, young workers can be particularly vulnerable. They might

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<v Speaker 4>be even you know, not wanting to go home and

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<v Speaker 4>tell mom and dad that they've lost their job. They're

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<v Speaker 4>an enduring priority for the Fairwork comferenceman and amongst other

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<v Speaker 4>vulnerable workers, we pay particular attention to them. And if

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<v Speaker 4>there is a situation when one of our inspectors goes

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<v Speaker 4>into a workplace and it's got a lot of young

0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.400
<v Speaker 4>workers in it, we make it a priority to address

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<v Speaker 4>circumstances of that employer what.

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<v Speaker 3>Should a worker do if they think they're being underpaid.

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<v Speaker 4>It's really important to find out the facts, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>not to sort of jump in and I guess you

0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.560
<v Speaker 4>get into a conflict before you're absolutely sure. So they

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<v Speaker 4>can jo in a union and contact that union and

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<v Speaker 4>the union will tell them what the right amounts are.

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<v Speaker 4>They can come onto the Fair Work Combotsman's website, or

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<v Speaker 4>they can use our info line thirteen thirteen ninety four

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<v Speaker 4>and talk to somebody about it. Many many employers, no doubt,

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<v Speaker 4>once they find out there is an error, will want

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<v Speaker 4>a remedy it. If that's not successful, then they can

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<v Speaker 4>ask for more help from their union or from the

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<v Speaker 4>Fair Work Combotsman, and we can actually do what's called

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<v Speaker 4>a request for assistance and support them obtaining their rights.

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<v Speaker 2>That's all we've got time for today on the Daily OS.

0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.800
<v Speaker 2>We'd love to hear your stories of underpayment or working

0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.280
<v Speaker 2>conditions and you know, the experiences you're having in the workplace,

0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.480
<v Speaker 2>because it's really important to us and that's kind of

0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.440
<v Speaker 2>what we're here for. You can reach out to us

0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.600
<v Speaker 2>by jumping onto our Instagram and shooting us DMP. If

0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 2>you enjoyed this episode, would love you to share it

0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:57.680
<v Speaker 2>with a friend and give us a rating and Spotify

0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.720
<v Speaker 2>or Apple. We'll be back again tomorrow. Till then, have

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<v Speaker 2>a great day,