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Speaker 1: A lot of times. For me, I will write by hand.

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Speaker 1: I won't even open my computer. If I'm really stuck

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Speaker 1: for whatever I need to write, I will take out

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Speaker 1: a pen and paper and write the first version by

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Speaker 1: hand and get it down, and then I'll transpose it

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Speaker 1: onto the computer and refine and adjust and edit. I'm

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Speaker 1: a kinetic learner. I actually learned by using my body.

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Speaker 1: I was a ballet answer before all these lives. So

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Speaker 1: for me, actually doing like a physical act while learning

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Speaker 1: helps me remember better, helps me be more creative.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their date. I'm your host, doctor Amata Imba. I'm an

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Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm

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Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Today's interview is another one that I recorded at TED

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen when I was there a few weeks ago

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Speaker 2: in Vancouver for the Big five Day conference. So, as

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Speaker 2: you will know if you've listened to other episodes in

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Speaker 2: this little series, there was a little bit of background

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Speaker 2: noise going on because there was not a single soundproof

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Speaker 2: meeting room available for these interviews, but I think we've

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Speaker 2: got rid of most of the background noise in the

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Speaker 2: editing process. So my guest today is Elizabeth Curry Chandler.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth is the co founder and editor in chief of Goodreads,

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Speaker 2: a website that helps people find and share books they love.

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Speaker 2: Goodreads has over ninety million members and perhaps you're one

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Speaker 2: of them, and it was actually acquired by Amazon back

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Speaker 2: in twenty thirteen. Elizabeth is also the host of the

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Speaker 2: podcast Books of Your Life with Elizabeth, in which she

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Speaker 2: interviews some of the most creative people in the world,

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Speaker 2: like Sarah Jessica Parker about books that have had an

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Speaker 2: impact on their life. So in this chat with Elizabeth,

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Speaker 2: we talk about how she organizes her very busy life,

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Speaker 2: and it is very busy. She's we've got three young kids,

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Speaker 2: and plays a very major role in good Reads, and

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Speaker 2: we talk about how she plans her life, but more

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Speaker 2: specifically plans for unstructured time and spontaneity, which I found

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Speaker 2: really interesting. So on that note, over to Elizabeth to

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Speaker 2: hear about how she works. It's good to be chatting

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Speaker 2: with you, Elizabeth.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Oh, and we've just been talking about how your perhaps

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Speaker 2: the anti role model, despite the fact that you have

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Speaker 2: created such an amazing company and you've got three kids.

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Speaker 2: I do.

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Speaker 1: I have three kids, yes, but yeah, I don't consider

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Speaker 1: myself a role model because I think being a mom,

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Speaker 1: being a working mom, is so personal that I think

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Speaker 1: everyone's solution to managing time is really.

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Speaker 3: Specific to their situations. So that's why I say that.

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Speaker 2: So tell me about how you manage your time, like,

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Speaker 2: what is sort of like some different strategies or hacks

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Speaker 2: that you're using to balance a very busy work life

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Speaker 2: and home life.

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Speaker 1: Well, on the extreme end, I have Google calendars for

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Speaker 1: every child. I have three children calendar for my personal

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Speaker 1: life calendar, a joint calendar with my husband, a work calendar,

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Speaker 1: and then I think I also feed in the school calendar.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes my parents travel. But I have all these calendars

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Speaker 1: flowing into one master calendar that I print, which is

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Speaker 1: not very tech friendly, But I print that calendar every Monday,

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Speaker 1: and I go through it with a fine tooth comb

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Speaker 1: every Monday and kind of see where the problem spots

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Speaker 1: are ahead.

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Speaker 3: I go over it.

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Speaker 1: With anyone who's helping take care of my children, and

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Speaker 1: I do a lot of pre planning on.

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Speaker 3: The front end. I've read a lot of books about.

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Speaker 1: Time management, and they do suggest that you do a

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Speaker 1: lot of front end work. And then I also keep

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Speaker 1: a pretty ruthless prioritization list. In terms of getting things done.

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Speaker 1: I took a few online courses, I think through Amazon

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Speaker 1: actually when we were after we were acquired, and I

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Speaker 1: just do a very simple quadrant. I have urgent important tasks,

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Speaker 1: important non urgent tasks which I have to schedule, non

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Speaker 1: important non urgent.

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Speaker 3: Tasks which I never do. And what is the fourth one?

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Speaker 1: Not important urgent tasks which I try and delegate whenever possible.

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Speaker 2: Good one.

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Speaker 3: So that's very simple. I've read other books. I think

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Speaker 3: it was how to Get Things Done? Do you know

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Speaker 3: that book?

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Speaker 1: Which I thought was helpful, but the level of complexity

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Speaker 1: for me and my lifestyle was not a good match.

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Speaker 1: So that's what I do in terms of time management.

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Speaker 1: But then the other thing I would say for me

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Speaker 1: is I actually don't enjoy scheduling every moment of my life.

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Speaker 1: And a few years ago I was in a sort

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Speaker 1: of a zone where I had every half an hour

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Speaker 1: had a schedule, attack ask a thing that had to happen,

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Speaker 1: and it made me crazy because I felt trapped and

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Speaker 1: I felt like my schedule was leading me around, you know,

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Speaker 1: on a leash. And so what I ended up doing

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Speaker 1: to combat that Also because for me, I consider myself

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Speaker 1: someone who needs a lot of a alone time, which is

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Speaker 1: not useful when you have three children, and b I

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Speaker 1: like time to be creative. I like time where I'm

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Speaker 1: doing nothing. I need that, So I actually schedule unstructured time.

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Speaker 3: I take about a day a month where I do nothing.

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Speaker 1: That sounds very lovely in concept, it doesn't usually happen.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to couch that with ice, you know,

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Speaker 1: set aside the time in my calendar where I don't

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Speaker 1: have anything scheduled. And I also do that with my kids.

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Speaker 1: I try and schedule out a day or two a

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Speaker 1: day with each kid that I'm going to spend unstructured

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Speaker 1: time with them where I'm not taking them to something.

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Speaker 1: And also that we get to decide together. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have a whole afternoon together, so what do we

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Speaker 1: feel like doing? And that that that ability to choose

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Speaker 1: what you want to do in the moment is in

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Speaker 1: many ways more precious to me than all my other time.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing. I want to delve into this day

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Speaker 2: a month that you set aside for your own time.

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Speaker 2: What what does that look like? Well?

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Speaker 1: The great, the great thing about that day is I

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Speaker 1: have no idea what it's going to look like. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes it can be something as simple as window shopping

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Speaker 1: because there's no pressure to actually accomplish anything. And if

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Speaker 1: I feel like going in the store, I will.

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Speaker 3: But I don't actually want to buy anything.

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Speaker 1: It's just that ability to make a choice in the

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Speaker 1: moment and not feel any consequences.

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Speaker 2: And also.

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Speaker 1: Just cultivating more spontaneity in my life. I actually like

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Speaker 1: to be spontaneous, and I found when I had children

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Speaker 1: that all that spontaneous time evaporated. That's actually for me

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Speaker 1: because I like to be creative.

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Speaker 3: And I write.

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Speaker 1: I'm also, you know, a journalist, and for example, when

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Speaker 1: I'm writing, I sometimes need an hour of kind of

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Speaker 1: messing around until I'm ready to write, until my brain

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Speaker 1: is in the mode, and I just can't, you know,

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Speaker 1: jump like a trained animal when when when the schedule

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Speaker 1: says it must happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So for me, I I you know, I try and

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Speaker 1: do these efficiency tricks, but I also need chunks of

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Speaker 1: just not efficient time.

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Speaker 2: I want to delve into your writing and hear about

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Speaker 2: what what sort of conditions for you like produce the

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Speaker 2: best writing. Like if you're sitting down to write a piece,

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Speaker 2: what ideally is kind of going on in your environment

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Speaker 2: and on your computer screen? What does that look like?

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Speaker 1: I prefer to write early in the morning, before I

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Speaker 1: have any thoughts going on in my brain.

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Speaker 2: How early are we talking, like before the kins are awake, or.

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Speaker 1: Yes if I can, which could be six am, five am.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it depends on the deadline pressure. But I like

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Speaker 1: to go early in the morning before all my other

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Speaker 1: thoughts are percolating in my head, and I prefer not

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Speaker 1: to look at my email A lot of times. For me,

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Speaker 1: I will write by hand. I won't even open my computer.

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Speaker 1: If I'm really stuck for whatever I need to write,

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Speaker 1: I will take out a pen and paper and write

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Speaker 1: the first version by hand and get it down, and

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Speaker 1: then I'll transpose it onto the computer and refine and

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Speaker 1: adjust and edit. I'm a kinetic learner. I actually learned

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Speaker 1: by using my body. I was a ballet answer before

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Speaker 1: all these lives. So for me, actually doing like a

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Speaker 1: physical act while learning helps me remember better, helps me

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Speaker 1: be more creative. Again, I think it's so personal how

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Speaker 1: you write best. But those are some things I like

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Speaker 1: to do if I'm really stuck, and just you know,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of writers who do things

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Speaker 1: like light a candle or you know, say some sort

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Speaker 1: of affirmation, which I think can be helpful, just kind

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Speaker 1: of get setting a mood and controlling the mood. I

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Speaker 1: think again, when you're trying to get things done, and

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Speaker 1: if you're an environment that you haven't controlled and made

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Speaker 1: the most comfortable for you, it can be harder to

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Speaker 1: produce creative work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And you're also an editor as well as

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Speaker 2: ERRITI or the editor in chief, and I want to know, like,

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Speaker 2: what what are the most common mistakes that you see

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Speaker 2: writers journalists?

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Speaker 1: Mike, That's a fun question because I feel I feel

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Speaker 1: like I've been doing it a long time now because

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Speaker 1: before good Reads, I worked as an editor at the

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Speaker 1: La Times and a couple other publications.

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Speaker 3: For me, I think being.

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Speaker 1: A good editor is having the ability to telescope really

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Speaker 1: far out, to think about the overarching image that a

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Speaker 1: story's going to create or the entire package. You have

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Speaker 1: to be able to really really back away from the

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Speaker 1: actual product, which can be hard for a writer if

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Speaker 1: they're not thinking that way. You know, they're just thinking

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Speaker 1: about the task at hand. But then at the same time, well,

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Speaker 1: staying there you also when you're thinking so far back,

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Speaker 1: you have to think about how all the elements talk

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Speaker 1: to each other. And when I think about good Reads,

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Speaker 1: one of the important things I think is, yes, we

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Speaker 1: send out a newsletter, but it's also our brand communicating

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Speaker 1: with the user. So it's literally like a human you know,

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Speaker 1: this is good Reads is talking to you and telling

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Speaker 1: you who they're like and their personality and their quirks

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Speaker 1: and interest. So I think you have to think in

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Speaker 1: a really really high level, looking down upon the larger

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Speaker 1: the larger product. Then the fun stuff is also the writing.

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Speaker 1: I love words, I love language. For me, I think

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Speaker 1: the most important thing is clarity. I'm not so interested

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Speaker 1: in someone trying to write and show off because if

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Speaker 1: it's difficult for people to understand, you lose your audience.

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Speaker 1: And I think I think you should. You know, you

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Speaker 1: want to engage them and pull them in and then

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Speaker 1: maybe you can throw in something a little clever and

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Speaker 1: make them laugh. But I think clarity is the number

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Speaker 1: one thing. You know, And then there's all sorts of

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Speaker 1: mechanics in writing that are really important.

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Speaker 3: Grammar's important.

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Speaker 1: Accuracy is you know, paramount, and then also thinking about

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Speaker 1: the hooks. You know, if you have a headline, you

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Speaker 1: want to have something that draws people in. And that's

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Speaker 1: the same even when you're writing an article, you know

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Speaker 1: you have to the top needs to be really strong.

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Speaker 1: You need to be able to lure your audience into

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Speaker 1: wanting to read the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: And what's your method for coming up with a good headline?

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Speaker 2: I feel like there's I mean, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: clickboity world that worry and like there's like people say,

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Speaker 2: spend more time on the headline than the actual body

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Speaker 2: of the article.

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Speaker 1: I don't think our priority is quite so much on

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Speaker 1: clickbaity headlines. We send a lot of newsletters, we do

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Speaker 1: a blogs, but we're not really in that large, mass

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Speaker 1: produced content world where you're competing for eyes in that way.

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Speaker 1: So I don't have an answer for the most clickbaity headline.

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Speaker 1: But I think in general, one some people just have

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Speaker 1: a gift for headlines. I mean a lot of copy

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Speaker 1: editors I've worked with have just a great ear for

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Speaker 1: puns and language. But again, I prefer a clear.

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Speaker 3: Headline to something that's too clever and you don't really

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Speaker 3: know what you're reading.

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Speaker 1: I think people want to know what they're about to consume,

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Speaker 1: and then I think ethically the content should reflect the headline.

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Speaker 1: I also think that, but again, those are pieces that

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Speaker 1: sometimes people will forget about, you know, and I've done

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Speaker 1: that where I've clicked on a headline and then the

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Speaker 1: content is actually something different, and that's a frustrating experience

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Speaker 1: for the reader.

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Speaker 3: I think it's really important to.

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Speaker 1: Treat your audience like they're intelligent, not try and pull

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Speaker 1: something over on them, not try and be not trying

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Speaker 1: to obscure things. I just I find that almost impolite.

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Speaker 1: So for me, that's that's what I tell my editors

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Speaker 1: to do, is you know, do right by your reader,

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Speaker 1: and I think by doing by by doing that, you

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Speaker 1: protect their perception of the brand one and also don't

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Speaker 1: waste people's time. I'm not interested in wasting people's time.

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Speaker 1: We're not trying to recommend bad books. I mean, time

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Speaker 1: is the most precious commodity we have. So those are

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Speaker 1: some of the things that I think are really important as.

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Speaker 2: An editor, and with like with writing and editing, I guess, like,

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Speaker 2: what are some some uncommon sort of bits of advice

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Speaker 2: or things that work for you, Like I remember I

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Speaker 2: had Dan Pink on the show a few months ago,

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Speaker 2: and something that he does he'll literally read his whole

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Speaker 2: book out loud to say sort of how it's flowing

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Speaker 2: and how it's sounding, and if it's sounding good you

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Speaker 2: know theory, but that it reads better. And I've heard

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Speaker 2: that advice actually from a couple of people on the show.

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Speaker 2: So what do you do that? I guess might be

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Speaker 2: sort of more kind of quirkier things like that bad.

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Speaker 3: Well, I also read out loud. I do. I do

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Speaker 3: do that.

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Speaker 1: Throughout as I'm reading and editing, I do read it

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Speaker 1: out loud. If I'm writing something longer, so always read

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Speaker 1: out loud. So I don't know if that's that quirky,

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Speaker 1: I would agree with them. I mean, I like to

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Speaker 1: go over with my editor. I will read the headlines

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Speaker 1: out loud, and then I'll pause and say what does

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Speaker 1: that mean if it's not clear? And she always laughs

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Speaker 1: because she's like, you just always know exactly which sentences

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Speaker 1: I struggled on and you.

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Speaker 3: Know you can see it.

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Speaker 1: But again, it's a part of the reading out loud process.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, I think it's probably somewhat

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Speaker 1: unusual if I write by hand.

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Speaker 3: But that's when I'm struggling, picle.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting, the writing by hand one. So for you,

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Speaker 2: that's kind of more of a go to tactic when

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Speaker 2: you're sort of like experiencing like a bit of writer's

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Speaker 2: block or.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or momentum, I just need to get going. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed a lot of authors who do also write by hand.

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Speaker 1: It's not as uncommon as you'd think. I mean, some

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Speaker 1: of them are in older generations than the younger generations,

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Speaker 1: but I see it come through. There's some authors that

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Speaker 1: write their entire books by hand.

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Speaker 3: Which is just amazing to me.

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Speaker 2: Crazy, isn't it? Yeah? Wow? And I want to ask

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Speaker 2: you this might sound like a weird question, but how

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Speaker 2: you read books? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I like to read books.

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Speaker 2: I can imagine, like, how many books are you're reading?

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Speaker 2: Are you do you reckon?

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Speaker 3: Well? When I had kids, that dropped off a lot.

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Speaker 3: I actually laughed.

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Speaker 1: The year I had my third child, I read very

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Speaker 1: few books, and I thought it was pretty embarrassing. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest, there was a lot going on.

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Speaker 1: How do I read I love.

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Speaker 3: I'm actually so.

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Speaker 1: In my podcast right now, Books of Your Life with Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: I ask notable and creative people to tell me about

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Speaker 1: the three to five books that have shaped their lives.

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Speaker 1: So I'm basically I hadding a list of book recommendations

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Speaker 1: from these very interesting people.

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Speaker 3: I just interviewed Jared Diamond.

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Speaker 1: He's a nonfiction author who wrote Guns, Germs, and Steel,

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Speaker 1: and he recommended all these crazy books about Papal New Guinea.

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Speaker 3: And so I read this book about a.

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Speaker 1: Young woman who grew up it's a memoir called Child

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Speaker 1: of the Jungle, who grew up in one of these

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Speaker 1: tribes from age seven to I think a teenager. And

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Speaker 1: then when she went back to Europe, trying to reassimilate

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Speaker 1: into Western culture was just traumatic for her, and you know,

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Speaker 1: just fascinating, kind of weird, not weird, but you know,

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Speaker 1: not the book I would pick if I was just

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Speaker 1: walking through the But I love that. I love kind

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Speaker 1: of just picking up books from other people that are

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Speaker 1: that they say are really powerful. And then I read

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Speaker 1: another book called Dog Eaters by Jessica Hagdorn, which is

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Speaker 1: about the Philippines, and I mean, it's just it's a

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Speaker 1: wild Ride.

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Speaker 3: It was unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: It was recommended by another guest I had on the

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Speaker 1: podcast named Marlon James, and he's a booker winning author,

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Speaker 1: and it just was a spectacular book. So for me,

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Speaker 1: I like finding sort of random books, but I like

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Speaker 1: hearing about the books that have just changed people's lives

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Speaker 1: or really really impacted them because I don't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of time, and I read new books too, but

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Speaker 1: I also personally really enjoy finding those. I want to

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Speaker 1: read The Magic Mountain now because Frederick Tutten told me

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Speaker 1: about it, and I was reading The Autobiography of a

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Speaker 1: Yogi because LeVar Burton recommended it to me.

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Speaker 3: You know, just crazy, very very eclectic books. I like

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Speaker 3: eclectic books.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm enjoying it. I mean it was partly for

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Speaker 1: a personal interest to ask that question, but and I

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Speaker 1: let one book lead me to another. So if I'm

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Speaker 1: really interested in the topic, I'll maybe continue in that topic.

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Speaker 1: I've definitely gone through phases where I've read about certain

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Speaker 1: subject Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And do you read hot copy books on the kindle?

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Speaker 1: I do all three, Okay, so a lot of times

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Speaker 1: I'll have the kindle and the hard copy and the

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Speaker 1: audible and then that actually has helped me up my

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Speaker 1: reading a lot, because I'll get in the car, stick

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Speaker 1: on the audible and then i get, you know, to

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Speaker 1: the doctor's office that I'm on my kindle and then

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Speaker 1: I go home and maybe I have my physical book

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Speaker 1: because I like to again back to the kinetic learning.

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Speaker 3: I actually like to mark my books. I write notes

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Speaker 3: in the margins. I like to highlight.

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Speaker 1: I like to dog ear like they kind of start

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Speaker 1: to look a little bit like, yeah, like they've been

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Speaker 1: through something by the end of the book, which is

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Speaker 1: not the way my husband, for example, reads, But it's

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Speaker 1: just a thing I like to do. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: everybody reads their own way. I don't think there's any

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Speaker 1: one right way to read or choose books. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's really what good reads is about. I would never,

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Speaker 1: you know, say you need to read these kind of books.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now you mentioned the podcast, which I've

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Speaker 2: listened to a few episodes, and I love it fascinating

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Speaker 2: hearing these people talk about the books that have really

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Speaker 2: changed them and had an impact. And I want to know, like,

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Speaker 2: how how do you prepare for an interview? What's your

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Speaker 2: process of preparing for a podcast interview?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's like all journalism interviews. I think

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Speaker 1: preparation is the most important thing. I had one person

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Speaker 1: tell me that the reason why Terry Gross is so

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Speaker 1: good at her job is because she does the work.

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Speaker 1: She reads all the books, she does all the research.

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Speaker 1: And so my aim before I do a podcast or

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Speaker 1: any interview is really to learn as much as I

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Speaker 1: can about the person, and also read the books that

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Speaker 1: are recommended to me, which can be a challenge when

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Speaker 1: someone recommends five very deep, intense books. So I haven't

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Speaker 1: always finished all of the books, but I do try

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Speaker 1: and read at least a portion of them, and I

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Speaker 1: look at the Goodreads reviews and I talk to people

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Speaker 1: about them and research.

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Speaker 3: The authors the time period.

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Speaker 1: I like to have a lot of rigor in my

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Speaker 1: approach for any sort of journal piece of journalism work,

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Speaker 1: and I think griggor is really important. Also when you're

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Speaker 1: producing the content, you know you want the accuracy, you want,

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Speaker 1: the finesse, you want the flow. Podcasts are a little

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Speaker 1: different from print, but still telling a story. So I

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Speaker 1: have a lot to learn, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I understand a lot about it from

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Speaker 1: my work in print.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess like with any kind of interview,

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Speaker 2: like how how are you going about preparing questions or

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Speaker 2: themes that you want to explore, like how how much

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Speaker 2: do you prepare versus kind of let go with the flow.

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Speaker 1: I guess I think that's that's a dance in all

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Speaker 1: journalism interviews. I've always found that to be interesting. In

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Speaker 1: a podcast, one of the things I look for is

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Speaker 1: themes throughout the books that they've they've read, which is

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Speaker 1: very interesting. I know LeVar Burton's books all had these journeys.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's such a seeker.

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Speaker 3: When you looked at the books he selected, you realized

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Speaker 3: the level.

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Speaker 1: It was just like he was on a spiritual, you know, journey.

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Speaker 1: It was fascinating. So I look for trends, but I

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Speaker 1: don't always to the script. I mean, I think sometimes

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Speaker 1: in a conversation you will have a question that pops

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Speaker 1: into your head because of what they said, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think you should ignore those. I mean it's I

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Speaker 1: think when you start out doing journalism, you kind of

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Speaker 1: stick to your list, and then as you get.

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Speaker 3: More confident and more comfortable, and.

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Speaker 1: If you're well prepared, it's a lot easier to veer

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Speaker 1: from the list as well. Because you can make connections

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Speaker 1: on the spot. You know, someone mentions napping. I interviewed

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Speaker 1: Will Schwalbe and he mentioned that he likes this book

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Speaker 1: about running because there was one paragraph about napping, and

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Speaker 1: he's a world class napper. And I knew because I

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Speaker 1: had read one of the other books he'd recommended that

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Speaker 1: was also about napping.

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Speaker 3: So I was able to make that connection.

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Speaker 1: So I think, I mean, I think most journalists it's

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Speaker 1: a preparation. I know, I'm going to say that like

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Speaker 1: ten times, but that would be that's the basis, and

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Speaker 1: then you can go do whatever you can riff off

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Speaker 1: that if you like.

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Speaker 2: My last question I do want to ask is just

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Speaker 2: in terms of you know, you mentioned like you'll have

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Speaker 2: your one day a month that's unstrected time that your

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Speaker 2: life is quite structed, and I'm curious, like, where do

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Speaker 2: your best ideas come from in the you know, very busy,

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Speaker 2: relatively structured life that you have. Where are you most creative?

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Speaker 1: Well, when I take ballet class, which I still do,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I really find a lot of creative ideas come

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Speaker 1: then because I turn off the analytical side of my

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Speaker 1: mind and I'm completely just inside the music. I would

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Speaker 1: say so I think a lot of stuff percolates.

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Speaker 3: Then also I have very vivid dreams.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I will have a

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Speaker 1: whole detailed idea come up in my mind and I'll

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Speaker 1: wake up and I just write them down. Sometimes I'll

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Speaker 1: have like ideas for things, I mean so specific.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of times just my dreams.

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Speaker 1: And then also maybe hanging out with some of my

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Speaker 1: closest friends who also like to be really creative. I

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Speaker 1: have one of my best friends is a composer, and we'll,

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Speaker 1: you know, hang out and play around with music and

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Speaker 1: just have a good conversation. I don't know, maybe having

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Speaker 1: tea with a good friend, things like that.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's not.

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Speaker 1: Too extreme, but I think maybe just allowing yourself those

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Speaker 1: those places that make you happy.

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Speaker 2: I like the ballet one. It's almost it sounds like

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Speaker 2: it's sort of your form of mindfulness of all.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah, for me, it has been. It's

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Speaker 3: like a meditation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And finally, because I think we're probably about out

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Speaker 2: of time, where can people find you and your podcast?

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Speaker 1: My podcast is called Books of Your Life with Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: You can find it on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, anywhere.

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Speaker 3: You can find.

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Speaker 1: Podcasts, and you can also discuss the books that we

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Speaker 1: find that we talk about on the website goodreads dot com.

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Speaker 2: Awesome, Thank you so much, Elizabeth.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Hello there. That is it for today's show. I hope

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Speaker 2: you like my chat with Elizabeth and got some useful

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Speaker 2: tips for a structure in your life or maybe improving

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Speaker 2: your writing or editing. And if you're enjoying how I work,

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Speaker 2: make sure you tell other people about it who you

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Speaker 2: think could also benefit and maybe leave a review if

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Speaker 2: you're feeling that way inclined. So that's it for today

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Speaker 2: and I'll see you next time.