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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, when we apologize, we apologize because we understand and

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Speaker 2: know our intentions, and we're hoping that others will recognize that.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Hello, it's doctor justin course. I'm here with Kylie, my wife,

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Speaker 3: mum to our six kids. I'm the founder of Happy

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Speaker 3: Families dot com, dot you, and the author of a

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Speaker 3: bunch of books about making your family happier, including ten

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Speaker 3: Things every parent needs to know.

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Speaker 4: If you're a parent who is time poor and wants.

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Speaker 3: Answers, right now, we have an answer for you about

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Speaker 3: how to get the kids to apologize when they do

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Speaker 3: the wrong thing, and how to restore relationships at home

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Speaker 3: when siblings fight with one another. Missus Happy Families. Kylie,

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Speaker 3: did you, as a child ever have any significant fights

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Speaker 3: with your two sisters?

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Speaker 2: What sibling does?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of like that, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: I really would love to meet someone who can say no, well.

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Speaker 4: Only children.

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Speaker 3: Only children have never fought with siblings because they don't

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Speaker 3: have any. So we came across some research recently, but

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Speaker 3: I think it's fascinating, really important and worth spending a

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Speaker 3: few minutes on. This was a study from the University

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Speaker 3: of North Carolina and it was published in the Journal

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Speaker 3: of Experimental Psychology looking at kids and apologies, and I

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Speaker 3: think that it's fascinating this idea that there are some

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Speaker 3: parents who absolutely insist that the kids need to apologize

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Speaker 3: to one another when they do the wrong thing, and.

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Speaker 4: Other parents who take a completely different tack.

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Speaker 3: When you were being raised by your parents, Kylie, were

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Speaker 3: you gently encouraged to apologize or were you told to

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Speaker 3: go to your sister right now and say sorry?

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Speaker 2: I think we were both standing in front of them, right,

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Speaker 2: of course, and I was told to apologize immediately, right And.

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Speaker 3: Did you look at her and say, you know what,

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Speaker 3: my little sister, I did the wrong thing and my

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Speaker 3: heartfelt apology.

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Speaker 4: Will you forgive me?

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Speaker 2: I think I was looking at my feet at the time,

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Speaker 2: and with my teeth firmly gritted to them. That's like,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's kind of how it goes.

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Speaker 3: Forgiveness is obviously an essential part of maintaining an ongoing

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Speaker 3: and positive relationship, and these researchers, they had a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of kids between the age of five and fourteen,

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Speaker 3: and essentially they looked at how they went with their apologies,

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Speaker 3: and what they found is that the kids who are

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Speaker 3: most likely to apologize the ones who have perspective, the

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Speaker 3: ones who have empathy, the ones who can pause and say,

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Speaker 3: I can imagine how that must have felt for my

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Speaker 3: sibling or this other person in this interaction. And because

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Speaker 3: I've got that capacity to have that perspective, I can

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Speaker 3: say sorry much more easily.

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Speaker 2: What I think is really interesting about this is that

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Speaker 2: there's actually two sides to an apology. There's an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to recognize where we've done wrong and to do what

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Speaker 2: we can to restore the relationship. But there's also so

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Speaker 2: the other side where forgiveness needs to be offered, and

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Speaker 2: both are really important for us if we want to

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Speaker 2: have good, strong, healthy relationships.

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Speaker 1: Ah.

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Speaker 3: So there's a couple of things that we can really

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Speaker 3: pick up on from what you've just said, Kylie. First

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Speaker 3: of all, if we look at the findings of this study,

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Speaker 3: the research has found that children are more likely to

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Speaker 3: forgive someone if they've apologized. I think that's really important.

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Speaker 3: But what's curious to me is other research that highlights

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Speaker 3: that if a child says sorry and they're not forgiven.

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Speaker 3: So let's say I do the wrong thing to you,

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Speaker 3: and I recognize that I've done the wrong thing, so

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Speaker 3: I say, Kylie, I'm so very sorry, and then you

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Speaker 3: say to me, I don't forgive you. I'm holding a grudge.

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Speaker 3: I'm really upset. I do not like what you've done

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Speaker 3: and I'm not going to let it.

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to let it fly. I'm really upset.

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Speaker 3: This study a different one published in the Personality in

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Speaker 3: Social Psychology Ballson. It's a University of Queensland study. Michael

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Speaker 3: Taie is the researcher, and he found that when people

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Speaker 3: do not receive forgiveness after they've apologized, they actually internalized

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Speaker 3: the belief that they are the victim, not the person

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Speaker 3: that they did the wrong thing too. So I could

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Speaker 3: be horrible to you. You're the victim. Then I apologize,

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Speaker 3: and if you don't forgive me, I actually feel like

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Speaker 3: I'm now the victim and you deserved what you got

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Speaker 3: because you're the kind of person that doesn't forgive when

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Speaker 3: people apologize.

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Speaker 4: Isn't that fascinating?

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Speaker 2: That actually is really fascinating, because I think I may

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Speaker 2: have been in that situation once or twice myself, and

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Speaker 2: I've never thought about it like that.

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Speaker 4: What do you mean, Well, there are.

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Speaker 2: Obviously been times where I've done something wrong and it's

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Speaker 2: upset somebody and I've apologized and they've just decided to

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Speaker 2: hold on to it forever and it's just left me

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Speaker 2: kind of feeling really hard done by. But I think

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Speaker 2: it also highlights just the different perspective that we take

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Speaker 2: because when we apologize, we apologize because we understand and

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Speaker 2: know our intentions and we're hoping that others will recognize that.

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Speaker 2: So when we're hurt by other people, we just see

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Speaker 2: their actions and don't have the ability to recognize their

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Speaker 2: intentions and so judge them for their actions. And that

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Speaker 2: judgment is a lot harsher because we don't see their heart,

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Speaker 2: we don't understand their intention.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that goes back to what we were talking

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Speaker 3: about last week on the podcast, the fundamental attribution error.

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Speaker 3: The fundamental attribution error basically is I want you to

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Speaker 3: judge me by my intentions even if my actions are bad,

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Speaker 3: because you know, I'm trying to be a good person.

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Speaker 3: Really messes up relationships when people judge you by your actions.

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Speaker 3: Not your intentions. You feel like you're now the victim,

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Speaker 3: and that's kind of where you're going. The other thing

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Speaker 3: that the researchers have found when they're talking about kids

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Speaker 3: is kids are much more likely to forgive if they

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Speaker 3: have empathy and perspective for somebody. And they're also much

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Speaker 3: more likely to forgive if that if they have theory

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Speaker 3: of mind, which kind of leads into having that empathy

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Speaker 3: or perspective anyway, which I think is a really important thing.

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Speaker 3: We've talked about this a lot on the podcast Theory

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Speaker 3: of Mind. There's an entire webinar that I've done about

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Speaker 3: theory of mind and little kids and their big feelings

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Speaker 3: and how hard it is to understand what's going on

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Speaker 3: for someone else.

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Speaker 4: This is just not something they do very easily.

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Speaker 3: So right after the break, let's talk about how to

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Speaker 3: help the kids to apologize in meaningful ways that encourage

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Speaker 3: perspective and empathy and actual forgiveness so that relationships can

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Speaker 3: be restored.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 5: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 5: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 5: of disciplined as a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 5: with love, compassion and humanity. Find it now at happyfamilies

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Speaker 5: dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now and everybody is

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Speaker 2: wanting to know how to help their children apologize.

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Speaker 3: Well, you can get them to say I'm sorry, in

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Speaker 3: which case they'll spit it across the room with their

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Speaker 3: eyes glaring at their sibling. But I think that there

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Speaker 3: are better things that we can do, Kylie. And it's

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Speaker 3: actually not rocket surgery. It's doable.

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Speaker 2: Well. The research paper actually talked about two things parents

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Speaker 2: can do to help children restore real life relationships, and

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Speaker 2: the first one was just this acknowledgment that children are

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Speaker 2: really capable of discerning between an insincere or a sincere apology,

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Speaker 2: and that for an apology to be acceptable, there needs

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Speaker 2: to be an acknowledgment of why they're apologizing. And this

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Speaker 2: is something that you and I have talked about on

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Speaker 2: the podcast before. So can you talk us through what

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Speaker 2: would be the appropriate steps or foundations for a sincere apology?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And this segues or dovetails so neatly with the

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Speaker 3: second area that the research is highlighted, which was helping

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Speaker 3: kids to understand perspective empathy, which means that they need

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Speaker 3: to have at least the capacity to sit with you.

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Speaker 4: So a couple of things.

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Speaker 3: Number one, it's very very unusual to be able to

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Speaker 3: get an apology to be meaningful when emotions are hot,

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Speaker 3: when everyone's in the heat of the moment, when everybody's

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Speaker 3: angry at their sibling and they say she's a bad

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Speaker 3: sport or he took my homework or whatever it is,

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Speaker 3: it's very very unusual that kids are going to say, actually, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I've done the wrong thing. You're right, I'm so sorry,

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Speaker 3: Please forgive me. That just doesn't happen. So the first

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Speaker 3: thing is have the conversation and emotions are cool. Everyone's

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Speaker 3: taken a step back, had a bit of a breather.

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Speaker 3: We can sit down with our kids and say, hey,

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Speaker 3: you know what happened about five ten minutes ago, how

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Speaker 3: did that make you feel? And how did that make

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Speaker 3: your brother feel or how did that make your dad

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Speaker 3: feel or your grandma or whoever the offended party is.

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Speaker 3: And what we're doing there is we're creating some psychological distance.

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Speaker 3: Emotions are nice and cool. But what we're doing straight

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Speaker 3: away is stepping into perspective. We're stepping into this thing

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Speaker 3: that theory of mind aids, the ability to see how

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Speaker 3: somebody else has been affected by what we did. It's

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Speaker 3: creating empathy. And once we've had that conversation, how do

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Speaker 3: you think that mum felt or how do you think

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Speaker 3: that dad felt? Or how do you think that your

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Speaker 3: siblings felt when that happened? Sometimes kids kind of you

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Speaker 3: know what it's like, Kylie, You've watched all of our

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Speaker 3: kids do this. We asked them a question like that,

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Speaker 3: and they go mm m and they shrug their shoulders

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Speaker 3: and they pout and they stare at the floor and

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Speaker 3: they don't want to.

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Speaker 4: Have the conversation.

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Speaker 3: And then what that really means is that having the

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Speaker 3: conversation prematurely, they're still too upset. There's still too much

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Speaker 3: going on for them to be able to deal with

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Speaker 3: it effectively. They're simply too emotional. But you will get

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Speaker 3: to a point where they'll start to talk about things.

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Speaker 3: So leave the room, come back in five minutes and say, hey,

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Speaker 3: let's try again. We didn't do so well last time.

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Speaker 3: How did they feel, how'd you feel? How did I feel?

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Speaker 3: And you want to get a three sixty perspective, not

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Speaker 3: just the victim, but everyone, because when there is that

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Speaker 3: kind of conflict, everyone is, to one degree or another,

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Speaker 3: a victim of some kind. The family has been fractured

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Speaker 3: because of the conflict, and we try to restore all

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Speaker 3: these relationships. And this is where it gets really interesting.

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Speaker 3: This is kind of like the explore explain in power,

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Speaker 3: the three e's that I talk about all the time.

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Speaker 4: We're exploring how.

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Speaker 3: Did you feel? How did everyone else feel? Then we

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Speaker 3: do a quick explanation. You know, when this happens, our

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Speaker 3: family really feels kind of horrible, doesn't it, And then

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Speaker 3: we empower what do you think would be the best

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Speaker 3: thing to do from here? The great thing about asking

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Speaker 3: that question is that the kids typically don't feel overly cornered,

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Speaker 3: but they're usually fairly willing to say, Okay, I need

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Speaker 3: to apologize, I need to make it right, I need

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Speaker 3: to fix things up. And then Kylie, we just step

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Speaker 3: into what a really great apology is.

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Speaker 2: So in our house we usually use your four step

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Speaker 2: approach to an apology. Would you like to talk us

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Speaker 2: through that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Okay, really simple four steps Number one, I'm sorry Number

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Speaker 3: two because number three, here's what it did to you?

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Speaker 4: And number four, will you forgive me? It's really that simple.

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Speaker 3: So let's say that two of the kids are having

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Speaker 3: a fight and we chat with them and they agree

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Speaker 3: that they need to apologize.

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Speaker 4: One of them needs to apologize to the other one.

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Speaker 3: She'll say, I'm sorry, Annie for yelling at you and

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Speaker 3: calling you names.

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Speaker 4: It made you feel horrible. Will you forgive me?

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Speaker 3: And it's really that simple. It needs to be like

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Speaker 3: a six second apology. Those four steps. The words are

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Speaker 3: so important, I'm sorry, and then explaining what you did

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Speaker 3: and how it affected the other person, with a follow

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Speaker 3: up question right at the end, will you forgive me?

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Speaker 3: And this is the critical thing because quite often, when

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Speaker 3: somebody says I'm sorry, what's the obvious and immediate response

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Speaker 3: that so many people will give.

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Speaker 2: They usually say it's okay, right.

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Speaker 3: And the thing is, most often it's not okay. It's

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Speaker 3: not okay that they called you a name, it's not okay.

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Speaker 3: They stole something, hit you, or did whatever it.

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Speaker 4: Was that they did.

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Speaker 3: And when we say it's okay in response to and

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, what we're actually doing is, rather than forgiving

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Speaker 3: the person.

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Speaker 2: We're brushing over the act.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: We're almost saying the act was not acceptable in the moment,

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Speaker 3: but now that you've acknowledged it, I'm going to allow

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Speaker 3: the act to have occurred. I'm going to accept that

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Speaker 3: it occurred and move on. And I just don't think

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Speaker 3: that's the right message that we want to be encouraging

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Speaker 3: our kids to absorb and to even perpetuate. What we

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Speaker 3: want to do instead is say what has happened is wrong,

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Speaker 3: but we forgive the person and then we move on.

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Speaker 4: It's a different process.

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Speaker 2: I think the two most powerful steps for me when

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Speaker 2: I listen, even just listening to you talk about this now,

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Speaker 2: is this acknowledgment of how it's actually impacted the person.

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Speaker 2: What I've done has actually really hurt them, And by

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Speaker 2: us being able to acknowledge, or our children being able

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Speaker 2: to acknowledge how it's hurt them really validates their feelings.

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Speaker 2: And then to ask that question, will you forgive me?

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Speaker 2: It shows a level of humility. It shows an acknowledgment

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Speaker 2: that I've actually fractured the relationship that we share and

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Speaker 2: I want to restore it.

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Speaker 3: That's the critical element. And I'm so glad that you've

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Speaker 3: picked up on that ultimately, will you forgive me? Is

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Speaker 3: an act of humble recognition, and that changes relationships. That's

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Speaker 3: where we teach our kids what a true apology really is.

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Speaker 2: Well, I am sorry that I'm not right there with you,

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Speaker 2: honey right now.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I need to forgive you for

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Speaker 3: that or not. It's kind of self inflicted, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: But hopefully for any parent who's got kids who kind

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Speaker 3: of get stuck into each other every now and again,

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Speaker 3: or who make missteps, that's pretty much all of us.

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Speaker 4: Hopefully these ideas around teaching kids how.

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Speaker 3: To better apologize will be helpful and it works with

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Speaker 3: kids from about the age of two or three all

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Speaker 3: the way up to fully grown adults and beyond. The

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Speaker 3: Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 4: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 3: If you like more info about making your family happier,

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Speaker 3: you can find it at happy families dot com dot au.