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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now find ways to have experiences. The more experiences you have,

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Speaker 2: the more breadth you experience, the more likely it is

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Speaker 2: that you're going to follow your energy and find what

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Speaker 2: it is that you most want to do. And if

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Speaker 2: you're doing something and it doesn't light you up, then

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Speaker 2: go and do something else.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: I've never asked you this question before? How did you

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Speaker 2: do it a high school? I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 2: that you had a bad high school experience or a

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Speaker 2: good experience. How did you go academically? Because it's your

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Speaker 2: twelve exam time right now and it's a lot of

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Speaker 2: pressure on all the kids. How did you do?

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Speaker 3: Look? For me, we have similar stories in that I had.

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Speaker 2: A you egged school, I went surfing.

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Speaker 3: I didn't work at school and go surfing, but I

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Speaker 3: did work school and just to the shop.

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Speaker 2: Did you really you know you still have school? You

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Speaker 2: never told me.

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Speaker 3: That only be married all these years, you know only

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Speaker 3: l twice and literally, of all the memories I have

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Speaker 3: of high school, it is the one memory that is

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Speaker 3: burned into my mind.

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Speaker 2: Why why?

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Speaker 3: Because I was top of the class and my home economics.

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Speaker 2: Wagged school I did missus, happy families. I'm seeing a

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Speaker 2: side of you that I can't believe. I'm not aware

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Speaker 2: of this story.

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Speaker 3: Well, the worst thing about it was my mom had

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Speaker 3: lost her car keys, right, and so she'd shown up

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Speaker 3: because I had a spare set. Just she showed up

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Speaker 3: at school, Yes, and I wasn't there. And I was

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Speaker 3: walking into the school at the end of the school

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Speaker 3: day so that I could go meet my mom where

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Speaker 3: I was supposed to meet her, And she was walking

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Speaker 3: through the back gate with my homeack teacher who thought

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Speaker 3: I was just the besne. She adored me, so, needless

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Speaker 3: to say, I was no longer top of the class.

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Speaker 3: I was no longer given the attention that I had

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Speaker 3: been given by that school wagger. Yeah she she really

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Speaker 3: turned on me.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So how did you actually do it? School?

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Speaker 3: Look? I did okay, but mostly with hands on what's okay?

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Speaker 3: I was probably on the sixtieth percent hole.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, all right.

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Speaker 3: So I passed?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just hanging around the middle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I dragged out my senior school report from my

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Speaker 2: big folder of all of my reports and photos from school,

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Speaker 2: and I thought it was kind of interesting when we

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Speaker 2: look at where life takes us, what happens in life.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't a very good student. I've never tried to

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Speaker 2: pretend that I was a good student. But so we

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Speaker 2: had the merit awards like every school has. I got

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Speaker 2: zero blue cards, I got zero Green cards, and I

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Speaker 2: got zero Gold cards in year twelve. None. I was

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Speaker 2: the student that no teacher could even give a sympathy

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Speaker 2: merit award too. I was a challenging student when I

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Speaker 2: was at high school. Here's what my I don't even

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what they call them, Like my

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Speaker 2: house family leader, Like the person who was in charge

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Speaker 2: of my little group in my house at my school.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember houses, there's always the houses, sport sport house. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So we also had it like our pastoral care well

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Speaker 2: being groups based on which house we were in.

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Speaker 3: It was just your pastoral care teacher.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So this person knows me best out of

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Speaker 2: all the teachers, mister gross, He says this, and I

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Speaker 2: love this comment, Like because back in the early nineties,

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Speaker 2: late eighties, early nineties, on the report cards, they actually

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Speaker 2: told you what they thought of you.

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Speaker 3: Well, they wrote them by hand.

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Speaker 2: This is all handwritten. And mister Gross said, it was

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Speaker 2: tremendous to see Justin Whin the senior points score at

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Speaker 2: the school swimming carnival because that was the only thing,

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Speaker 2: the only thing that I did well. I really tried

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Speaker 2: at the swimming carnival and I won. I was like

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Speaker 2: open champion in the year twelve swimming carnival.

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Speaker 3: Well, nowadays they've worked out how to maximize kids who

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Speaker 3: are athletic ability by telling them they can't compete unless

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Speaker 3: they get their grades up.

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Speaker 2: To a certain stage. I've never heard that anyway. This

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Speaker 2: is what he said. It would be gratifying to see

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Speaker 2: this level of commitment and ability transferred to Justin's academic effort.

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Speaker 2: He basically saying, the kid doesn't do anything well, you've

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Speaker 2: definitely made up for it. Doesn't try. My English score,

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Speaker 2: I scored less than fifty percent. I failed Maths. I

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Speaker 2: got fifty one percent, but it was the easiest maths

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Speaker 2: class that you can do, and I was I don't

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Speaker 2: even know how I got the fifty percent. This biology,

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Speaker 2: biology I top scored of all of my grades. I

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Speaker 2: got fifty nine percent in biology. Everything else it's just abysmo.

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Speaker 2: It's so bad. I told my ancient history teacher, look,

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Speaker 2: let bygones be bicons, what are we even talking about?

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Speaker 2: This tour was I was terrible. It was an absolutely horrendous,

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Speaker 2: horrendous student. And then that's my grades before the HSC

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Speaker 2: was done. Once I did my final exams, I failed

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Speaker 2: them all, every one of them, and so I ended

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Speaker 2: up scoring in the bottom fifteen percent of the state. Like,

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Speaker 2: my numbers were abysmo embarrassingly horrendously bad. And my parents

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Speaker 2: were paying all this money for me to go to

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Speaker 2: this really fancy school on the New southwes Central coast,

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Speaker 2: and here I was squandering all their cash, squandering the

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Speaker 2: great education they were trying to give me, and it

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Speaker 2: was devastating. It was absolutely devastating for them, and I

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Speaker 2: didn't care at all. And so I thought we should

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Speaker 2: talk today about parents who want their kids to do

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Speaker 2: really well and who are struggling to get the kids

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Speaker 2: to do any study. I figured there's value in that.

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Speaker 2: Even though the podcast half over already, well, you.

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Speaker 3: Obviously turned it around because after nearly nine years back

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Speaker 3: at school at university, studying, learning, growing.

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Speaker 2: I've got a PhD.

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Speaker 3: You did, and you proved that you were capable of

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Speaker 3: doing it. Yes, So how did you turn things around?

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Speaker 3: I mean, you've gone from being pretty much a high

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Speaker 3: school dropout. You failed your final exams.

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Speaker 2: It was abysmal, and any parents, it was so bad.

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Speaker 3: Any parent who's sitting here listening to this right now,

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Speaker 3: with a kid who is exactly like you, completely unmotivated

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Speaker 3: to do anything, they have not studied the year has

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Speaker 3: felt like an absolute waste of time.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't even have to be year twelve, either that

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Speaker 2: they could be in grade four or grade five. Of

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Speaker 2: me saying, oh, by hope, school I do I want

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Speaker 2: to do?

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Speaker 3: This is freaking out because they're looking at their kids'

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Speaker 3: trajectory and wanting the very best for them, knowing that

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Speaker 3: they've put in everything they've got to get than the best,

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Speaker 3: and it's still not enough. So how did you turn

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Speaker 3: things around?

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Speaker 2: I think the critical thing to recognize here is I

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Speaker 2: knew what I wanted to do, and I knew that

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Speaker 2: high school was completely irrelevant to it. My parents were

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Speaker 2: forcing me to do high school, but I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be a radio announcer. I'd done work experience in grade

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Speaker 2: ten at the local radio station. Two Goo and knew

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Speaker 2: from that minute that my destiny was on air. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I just knew it. I used to love hanging out

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Speaker 2: in the radio station studio with Sarah King and Sarah

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Speaker 2: and Cameron with a Brecky crew and Rick Julian, this

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Speaker 2: hardened surfer Dude from Forrest's Beach who was on the

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Speaker 2: air from nine to twelve and other and Matt. He

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Speaker 2: just surfed his life away and I was thinking, this

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Speaker 2: is the life. I used to ring the late night

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Speaker 2: Request show with Don Mayo and ask him to do

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Speaker 2: love song dedications to whichever girl I had a crash on.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was so committed to radio and I

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Speaker 2: knew that's what I wanted to do. So doing Year

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Speaker 2: twelve was only happening because my parents were forcing me

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Speaker 2: to be there. And I think this is a critical thing.

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Speaker 2: As parents, we get so caught up in this tunnel

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Speaker 2: vision that the kids have to go to school and

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Speaker 2: they have to do well, otherwise their life is over.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: When I think about my mom and dad's generation, you know,

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Speaker 3: one generation back, yep, there kind of was just one

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Speaker 3: education pathway. You finished high school, you did well, you

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Speaker 3: were able to go to university, get a job, Get a.

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Speaker 2: Job, yep, and so fair. And if you didn't do well,

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Speaker 2: you would do manual labor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you were kind of stuck in It felt like

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Speaker 3: stuck in.

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Speaker 2: A rush, you know what. I want to push back

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Speaker 2: against that a little bit. You're right in that that

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Speaker 2: was the mindset. But we always always, always have choice,

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Speaker 2: We always have options. Maybe harder, of course, it's harder.

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Speaker 2: I mean me going back to school at twenty six,

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Speaker 2: twenty seven and spending the next eight and a half

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Speaker 2: years as a full time student while we had kids

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Speaker 2: and a mortgage. It was way harder than going to

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Speaker 2: school when I was eighteen or nineteen straight into university

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Speaker 2: after high school. But going back and doing it the

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Speaker 2: hard way has actually been better for us because I

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Speaker 2: went back for the right reason, and I worked my

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Speaker 2: tail off because it really mattered, and I was so

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Speaker 2: invested in it. Anyway, I'm sort of skipping ahead. The

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Speaker 2: main point that I want to make is two points

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Speaker 2: number one. There are always options. There are always options.

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Speaker 2: Your parents, my parents always had options. We all have options.

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Speaker 2: We can walk away from what we're doing, we can

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Speaker 2: start over. There are all sorts of safety nets, all

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Speaker 2: kinds of supports, all kinds of welfare options that can

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Speaker 2: help us to change the trajectory of our lives. At

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Speaker 2: any given moment. There's always an option. Even when we

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Speaker 2: feel trapped. We just need to know who to ask

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Speaker 2: or where to go. But there are options. I knew

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be a radio announcer. I knew that

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Speaker 2: year twelve was irrelevant. In fact, year eleven was irrelevant.

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Speaker 2: I was only doing it because my parents said that

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Speaker 2: I had to, and so the effort that I put

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Speaker 2: in was zero, and therefore the result that I got

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Speaker 2: was essentially zero. But I knew that I could get

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Speaker 2: into radio, and I did it, and I had a

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Speaker 2: successful radio career. So I think that's the first thing.

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Speaker 2: If your child knows what they want to do, that's

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Speaker 2: ninety percent of the battle. Knowing what you want to do,

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Speaker 2: that's the big thing.

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Speaker 3: My impression though, is most kids actually don't. There is

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Speaker 3: so much pressure for them to know what they're going

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Speaker 3: to do with the rest of their life. From the

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Speaker 3: time there in year ten and our daughter came home

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Speaker 3: and after having had a conversation with a teacher at

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Speaker 3: the end of grade nine when she was choosing her subject,

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Speaker 3: she was crying and she was literally like, my teachers

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Speaker 3: told me that I've got no hope if I don't

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Speaker 3: know what I want to do with the rest of

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Speaker 3: my life. Now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was in grade. Not got to choose your

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Speaker 2: subjects now, otherwise you're not going to get the right

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Speaker 2: subjects for senior year, and then you're going to get

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Speaker 2: it wrong for year eleven and twelve and university you'll

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Speaker 2: be in the wrong course. It won't work and it's

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Speaker 2: just slight of garbage. So I gave a talk just

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Speaker 2: last week at Corinda State High School in Brisbane to

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Speaker 2: year eleven going into year twelve. They're all the official

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Speaker 2: now the year twelve because the year twelves are finishing

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Speaker 2: their exams and they're done, so year eleven has officially

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Speaker 2: become year twelve. And I talked to them about making

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Speaker 2: this last year account and what they could do after school.

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Speaker 2: You've got kids in this grade, some of whom their

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Speaker 2: life has mapped out, they know where they're going, and

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Speaker 2: some kids who are like, I don't even know why

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Speaker 2: I'm here. And I said to them, my advice is

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Speaker 2: say yes to everything until you're forty, and say no

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Speaker 2: to almost everything after forty. I'm talking about from a

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Speaker 2: career point of view. So if our kids aren't being

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Speaker 2: exposed to different forms of work experience, then they're not

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Speaker 2: going to learn what they like. So many parents now

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Speaker 2: saying I don't want my child to have a job

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Speaker 2: because I want them to focus on their studies. But

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Speaker 2: it's not until you go and do that work experience.

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Speaker 2: If I had never gone to the radio station, I

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Speaker 2: would never have known how much I could have loved it,

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Speaker 2: and never have had that career. We actually say to

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Speaker 2: our kids, work out what you want to do, and

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Speaker 2: then go and offer to work for free for the

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Speaker 2: people who do what you do, because if you work

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Speaker 2: for free for them, even if it's for six or

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Speaker 2: twelve months, you will learn what that industry is about.

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Speaker 2: You'll learn what the people there do, they will learn

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Speaker 2: to trust you, they'll see you that you're dependable, and

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Speaker 2: then when there is paid work available, they will pay

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Speaker 2: you to do that work. Like find ways to have experiences.

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Speaker 2: The more experiences you have, the more bread you experience,

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Speaker 2: the more likely it is that you're going to follow

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Speaker 2: your energy and find what it is that you most

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Speaker 2: want to do. And if you're doing something and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't light you up, then go and do something else.

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Speaker 2: So your question was how did I turn it around?

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Speaker 2: What happened was I knew what I wanted to do,

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Speaker 2: and so year twelve wasn't important. For kids that don't

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Speaker 2: know what to do, they don't know where they want

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Speaker 2: to go, help them to get experience. Get them off

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Speaker 2: the screens and get them to go and do some

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Speaker 2: trolley pushing at the local woolies, or get them to

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Speaker 2: go and work as a checkout chick, or work in

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Speaker 2: the deli, or work in the fruit and vegeta department,

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Speaker 2: or maybe they want to go and work for the

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Speaker 2: local florists down the road, sweeping up rose thorns and

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Speaker 2: putting all the dirty, stinking water down the drains. And

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Speaker 2: because they're interested in the creative side of things, help

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Speaker 2: them to find where they want to be and give

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Speaker 2: them experiences to see if they actually like it, and

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Speaker 2: if they don't, tell them to quit and find something else.

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Speaker 2: That's how you make sure that your life is on track.

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Speaker 2: You tap into the stuff that gives you energy and

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Speaker 2: you say yes to everything. And if they find something

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Speaker 2: that they love, like for example, psychology, which is what

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Speaker 2: happened with me. I was asked by somebody to write

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Speaker 2: an article for a website, this little website that had

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Speaker 2: just started up called kid Spot, because I was doing

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Speaker 2: a PhD and somebody was interested in what I was

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Speaker 2: learning about. So I wrote the article and I said, hey,

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Speaker 2: you can write some stuff. Would you like to write

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Speaker 2: some more stuff? And I said okay, I said yes

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Speaker 2: to everything. Next thing you know, I was their resident

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Speaker 2: parenting expert for a number of years, and then another

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Speaker 2: opportunity came up to be on the TV because I

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Speaker 2: wrote something that got picked up by the paper. I

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Speaker 2: said yes to everything, and over time, I've followed the

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Speaker 2: stuff that really lights me up, and I've moved away

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Speaker 2: from the stuff that does. And I've had so many

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Speaker 2: opportunities that I've taken and then gone, yeah, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to do that again. The business could have gone

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Speaker 2: in forty three different directions, but it's where it is

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Speaker 2: now because I said yes to everything and then said

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Speaker 2: no to things once I realized that they weren't doing

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Speaker 2: it for me and to me, that's the best advice

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Speaker 2: that I can give for parents whose kids are growing

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Speaker 2: up and dealing with that question or the The other

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Speaker 2: advice is don't ever ask your kids what they want

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Speaker 2: to do, like, oh, what are you going to do

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Speaker 2: when to finish school? It's just it's such an unfre question. Instead,

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Speaker 2: say what's exciting to you now? Where would you like

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Speaker 2: to be working right now? And how can we support that?

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Speaker 2: To me, there's much more value in that than demanding

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Speaker 2: that they go out and know what their life trajectory

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Speaker 2: is going to be. I mean, only about twenty percent

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Speaker 2: of adults are doing today what they thought they'd be

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Speaker 2: doing when they finished high school. Putting pressure on kids

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Speaker 2: today when they're in grade ten, on the grade nine

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Speaker 2: and grade twelve to know what they're going to do

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Speaker 2: for the rest of their lives, it's just crazy because

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Speaker 2: they're going to change their mind.

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Speaker 3: So what comparents do if they find themselves with a

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Speaker 3: son or a daughter who is just.

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Speaker 2: Like you, Trust is number one. Like, you've got to

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Speaker 2: trust in the in built desire for your child to

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Speaker 2: grow and develop and find something. The second thing is

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Speaker 2: establish some basic rules and parameters. You're welcome to live

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Speaker 2: in our house for as long as you want, kiddo,

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Speaker 2: but the expectation is that you're either working full time

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Speaker 2: or studying full time. You have to be making progress

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Speaker 2: on something if you don't know what you want to do,

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Speaker 2: just do something and once you've discovered that that's not

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Speaker 2: what you want to do, keep doing it until you

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Speaker 2: find something else. A perfect case in point, we've done

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Speaker 2: this with our kids. We had our eldest daughter. She

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Speaker 2: went to UNI straight after school, discovered really quickly that

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Speaker 2: she wasn't ready for it.

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Speaker 3: And so we said, even though she signed up for

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Speaker 3: a course that she was really passionately, really passionate about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but she had no energy in it. Once she

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Speaker 2: was involved in it, she was like, this is not

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Speaker 2: what I hoped that it would be. And we said, well,

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Speaker 2: that's fine, quit UNIE because you're wasting your time and

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Speaker 2: your money, but you must be full time earning or

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Speaker 2: full time learning. She got a job in a factory.

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Speaker 2: She did it for about eighteen months.

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Speaker 3: Well, the pay was fantastic that she was driven by

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Speaker 3: the money for a certain period of time until she

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Speaker 3: realized that this work actually sucks. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: be doing this for the rest of my life.

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Speaker 2: No energy. Again, it's not about following your passion, it's

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Speaker 2: aboutollowing your energy. No energy in it. She went back

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Speaker 2: to school. She felt like she was mature and ready,

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Speaker 2: and she really enjoyed school. The second time around, she's

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Speaker 2: back at UNI and studying, and then an opportunity came

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Speaker 2: up to do what she's always dreamt of doing and

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Speaker 2: that she thought she needed a univer degree to do,

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Speaker 2: and these people said, no, you don't need the degree.

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Speaker 2: Come and work for us now. We'll take you right now.

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Speaker 2: So she's let go of the degree for the second time,

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Speaker 2: which was a bit harder for as toys stomach. But

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Speaker 2: she's actually doing what she always wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: And our conversations with her is, I can't believe that

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Speaker 3: I get to do this and they actually pay me.

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Speaker 2: I get to do it every day. She's followed the

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Speaker 2: energy and she said yes to every opportunity and it's

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Speaker 2: opened up pathways and gateways and what more could you want?

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Speaker 2: As a parent, Do I care that my daughter has

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Speaker 2: a degree? I mean, I think it would be great

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Speaker 2: if she did have one. I know the value of education,

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Speaker 2: But what I care more about is that she's living

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Speaker 2: a life that's fulfilling and that's satisfying her energy needs.

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Speaker 3: So if this just taps into the conversation we had

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Speaker 3: yesterday about being interesting and that idea of valuing education.

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Speaker 3: Education comes in.

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Speaker 2: Every all kinds of ways of our lives, not just university.

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Speaker 3: Earning all the time, and we put so much emphasis

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Speaker 3: on the education we receive that has a piece of

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Speaker 3: paper signed by a university to say that we're we're

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Speaker 3: an intellect. Yeah, but the reality is we can have amazing,

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Speaker 3: fulfilling lives through the experiences in education we get just

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Speaker 3: from living.

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Speaker 2: Let me add one more thing to this, in case

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Speaker 2: anyone thinks that we're anti education, we're not not at all.

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Speaker 2: For kids that aren't interested in education, maybe that will

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Speaker 2: come later in life and they can get their education

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Speaker 2: in other ways, so long as they're progressing and following

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Speaker 2: their energy and saying yes to opportunities until they really

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Speaker 2: find what lights them up. That's the central thing. But

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Speaker 2: if academic work is doing that for them, if they

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Speaker 2: know their trajectory, get them going down that path. I mean,

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Speaker 2: maybe they want to be I'll pick a really high

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Speaker 2: profile thing. Maybe they want to be a doctor, so

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Speaker 2: they get into medical school. But once they're in medical school,

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Speaker 2: they have a thousand options within medicine. They can do radiology,

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Speaker 2: they can do urology, they can do a cardiology they

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Speaker 2: can do pathology. I mean, there are so many different

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Speaker 2: ologies in medicine that it's incredible, and they can spend

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Speaker 2: the next ten or fifteen years of their lives studying.

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Speaker 2: But while they're doing that, maybe they get in the media,

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Speaker 2: maybe they become a medical doctor who's on TV, or

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Speaker 2: maybe they discover the idea of doing remote work medically

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Speaker 2: and working with people who have specialized needs, or do

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like, just say yes to everything,

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Speaker 2: follow the energy until you're forty. By the time you're forty,

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Speaker 2: you know where you want to specialize. But now you've

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Speaker 2: got fifteen years of range and breadth and depth, and

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Speaker 2: then you can go super deep on the one thing

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Speaker 2: that you want to do because you've figured it out

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Speaker 2: over the last ten or fifteen years. Life is long,

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Speaker 2: careers along and you can do so many different things.

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Speaker 2: And I just think the idea that we need to

401
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Speaker 2: get our kids to get a really good grade right

402
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Speaker 2: now so they can decide right now, so they can

403
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Speaker 2: set their life course right now, is unfair. It does

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Speaker 2: them a disservice. The options will always be there. Getting

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Speaker 2: into university is easier now than it has ever been,

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Speaker 2: and you can get in as a mature age student,

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Speaker 2: the ATAR becomes irrelevant. Your child is worth more than

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Speaker 2: what their ATAR score is, and they have options. That's

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Speaker 2: really the take home message.

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Speaker 3: I had a conversation with one of my closest friends

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Speaker 3: just recently. She was an absolute mess, was tears just

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Speaker 3: streaming as she told me about her son who failed

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Speaker 3: year twelve and his whole life, all he's wanted to

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Speaker 3: do was be a train driver. And she had tried

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Speaker 3: all of these different options for him throughout his kind

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Speaker 3: of senior years to try and get experience, and it

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Speaker 3: wasn't going anywhere. And then he was able to spend

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Speaker 3: some time with some family up in townsil Yes, and

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Speaker 3: a job became available an hour and a half down

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Speaker 3: the road. So this is not easy. It's an hour

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Speaker 3: and a half down the road. And he signed up

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Speaker 3: for it and he got the job, but it was

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Speaker 3: kind of a railway hand. He was a helper and

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Speaker 3: they have been so impressed with him over the last

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Speaker 3: few months as he's worked there. He's got a guaranteed

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Speaker 3: train driving role next year, studing next year. He failed

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Speaker 3: high school and he didn't think that he was good

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Speaker 3: enough for anything, but his dream has been to be

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Speaker 3: a t and his mum has believed in him the

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Speaker 3: whole way through. And I just love it because it

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Speaker 3: takes all types to make our world function and work

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Speaker 3: and flourish and grow. And here's this kid who's had

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Speaker 3: this dream and traditional schooling did not work for him,

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Speaker 3: that he's been able to follow his heart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, put yourself in the right places, do the work

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Speaker 2: in the areas that it matters. Put your energy there,

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Speaker 2: follow the energy where your attention goes. Your energy flows.

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Speaker 2: The score. Sometimes it's really really important. Let's not dispute

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Speaker 2: the fact that sometimes that score is really important, but

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Speaker 2: more often than not, it's not nearly as important as

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Speaker 2: we make it out to be. This has been a

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Speaker 2: long conversation, but I hope it's been helpful. The Happy

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Speaker 2: Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruwland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and for more information

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Speaker 2: about making your family happier, you can visit us at

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Speaker 2: Happy families dot com dot a.

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Speaker 1: You