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Speaker 1: The Hi everyone, it's Justin Ruland from Bridge Media here.

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Speaker 1: And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, where's the

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Speaker 1: other Justin? And he is coming. Because normally on a Friday,

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Speaker 1: Justin and Kylie do their I'll Do Better Tomorrow episode

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Speaker 1: where they look back at the week that was. But

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Speaker 1: this week Justin's media schedule has been absolutely enormous. He's

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Speaker 1: been slammed with media requests as a result of his

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Speaker 1: viral post about the Netflix hit Adolescens on his Facebook page.

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Speaker 1: So as a result, what we're going to do today

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Speaker 1: is we'll be replaying a discussion that Justin had with

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Speaker 1: doctor Arna Rubinstein about Bringing Up Boys. It's actually an

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Speaker 1: excerpt from a longer conversation about boys, part of the

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Speaker 1: Bringing Up Boys Summit at Happy Families dot com dot au. Well, look,

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Speaker 1: we hope you enjoy the conversation and if it sparks

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Speaker 1: something for you, the entire Bringing Up Boy's Summit is

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Speaker 1: available now fifty percent off. That's ninety nine dollars until

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Speaker 1: March thirty one at Happy Families dot com dot com.

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Speaker 1: That's fifty percent off. Bringing Up Boys plus the Misconnection

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Speaker 1: Summit will also be on sale for ninety nine dollars.

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Speaker 1: That's at Happy Families dot com dot au will put

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Speaker 1: the links in the show notes. Now here's doctor Justin

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Speaker 1: Coulson with doctor Arna Rubinstein.

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Speaker 2: I'm really super excited to be able to spend some

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Speaker 2: time talking today with doctor Arna Rubinstein.

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Speaker 3: Now, the conversation that we're going to have is actually

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Speaker 3: part of the.

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Speaker 2: Bringing Up Boys' Summit. We had a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: experts from around the world join us for conversations about

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Speaker 2: what it is to bring up boys. But I think

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Speaker 2: that you'll find that this content is useful not just

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Speaker 2: for parents of boys, but for parents generally. My sense

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Speaker 2: is that hearing what doctor Arna Rubinstein has to say

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Speaker 2: will make a big difference in the way that you

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Speaker 2: engage with your family. Doctor Arna is the CEO and

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Speaker 2: founder of the Rights of Passage Institute. He has over

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Speaker 2: thirty years experience as a medical doctor, counselor, mentor, a

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Speaker 2: speaker and a workshop facilitator. The programs, the seminars and

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Speaker 2: the camps that he's helped to develop have been attended

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Speaker 2: by more than three hundred and fifty thousand people globally.

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Speaker 2: While some of the largest schools in Australia have implemented

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Speaker 2: his framework in wonderful ways. His programs are designed to

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Speaker 2: support boys and girls to successfully transition, healthy, safely into adulthood.

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Speaker 2: His goal is to make rights of passage mainstream once again.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Arna Rubenstein is the proud father of two wonderful

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Speaker 2: young men and a mentor to many others, and he

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Speaker 2: joined me for this discussion about why boys seem to

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Speaker 2: be natural risk takers.

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Speaker 4: There's a reason for it. And when I studied rights

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Speaker 4: and passage all over the world, what I discovered that extraordinarily,

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Speaker 4: despite the fact that they never met their shatter, they

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Speaker 4: all did the same thing. So they all reckon. They

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Speaker 4: all did at the same age sort of when the

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Speaker 4: boys were hitting puberty, and they would always be taken away.

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Speaker 4: And then there would be four elements that always happened.

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Speaker 4: The first is that the boys get to hear the

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Speaker 4: stories of the elders. They get to hear the men

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Speaker 4: talking about their lives and the big things that had

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Speaker 4: impact in their lives. And that's how they actually received

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Speaker 4: wisdom and knowledge, not by being told how to live

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Speaker 4: their lives and what to do, but by actually hearing

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Speaker 4: the stories. So stories were an incredibly important part of

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Speaker 4: Rutza passage. That was the first element. The second element

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Speaker 4: is there's always a challenge, and there was always a

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Speaker 4: challenge that pushed a boy to his edge. And actually

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Speaker 4: it did a couple of things. It actually made him

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Speaker 4: face his own mortality and fear, and it humbled him.

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Speaker 4: It humbled him, which is very interesting because if this

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Speaker 4: is anate need inside a boy, and if we don't

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Speaker 4: create it for him, he will go and do it himself.

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Speaker 4: He will push himself to a point where his mortality

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Speaker 4: is challenged. And if there's no supervision, the danger is

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Speaker 4: that he'll actually kill himself or badly injure himself, which

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Speaker 4: you know, I know did emergency man, I did retrieval medicine,

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Speaker 4: and or all the young men even make it to

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Speaker 4: the hospital. And so I actually believe that every boy

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Speaker 4: is going to go through a rite of passage. The

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Speaker 4: question is are they going to create their own which

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Speaker 4: you know, we hope is not too disastrous, or we're

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Speaker 4: going to create something for them which is actually appropriate.

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Speaker 4: And then the other thing is if the humbling doesn't occur,

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Speaker 4: then they end up arrogant and entitled. And you know

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Speaker 4: how many young men do we know out there who

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Speaker 4: are arrogant and entitled and think the world is there

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Speaker 4: for them and their role is to take as much

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Speaker 4: as they can. So that was the set the first

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Speaker 4: element story, the second element, there's always a challenge. The

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Speaker 4: third element is creating a vision for how you want

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Speaker 4: to be in the future. What sort of man do

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Speaker 4: you want to be, what's your role you know, how

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Speaker 4: do you want to be in the community. And included

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Speaker 4: in that vision is what are the from your childhood

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Speaker 4: that you need.

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Speaker 3: To let go of.

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Speaker 4: If you're going to become that man. And then the

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Speaker 4: fourth element I call it an honoring or a recognition

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Speaker 4: of spirit, and it's based on this idea that every

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Speaker 4: boy is different, and every boy is born with their

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Speaker 4: own unique gifts and talents, their own genius and spirit.

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Speaker 4: And one of the key things of a rite of

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Speaker 4: passage is to recognize and bring out those gifts, bring

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Speaker 4: out that talent, bring out that spirit. And they were

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Speaker 4: things that were done and so our challenge is then

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Speaker 4: to make that appropriate for today because we don't live

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Speaker 4: in you know, the jungles of Africa a Papua New

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Speaker 4: Guinea to one hundred years ago, the deserts of Australia,

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Speaker 4: it's whatever we do has to be appropriate for now,

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Speaker 4: and I can talk about that. But if we don't

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Speaker 4: do that, those things we don't create a rite of passage.

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Speaker 4: The danger is the boys do not evolve and end

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Speaker 4: up becoming physically out up men, but still with the

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Speaker 4: psyche the behavior boy, which is a disaster.

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Speaker 3: So in your book The Making of Men, you actually

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Speaker 3: talk about a world that runs on boy psychology? Correct?

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Speaker 3: Can you just maybe? Because I definitely want to get

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Speaker 3: to these solutions and these ideas about what we can

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Speaker 3: do it, because we're not going to send our kids

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Speaker 3: out to hunt a wildline in the forest just down

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Speaker 3: the street here. What does a world running on boy

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Speaker 3: psychology look like? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: So when I was doing the work, someone said, well,

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Speaker 4: if you're going to talk about boys to men, you

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Speaker 4: have to be able to define the difference. I wrote

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Speaker 4: a model boyscology, healthy maunt psychology, and boy psychology is

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Speaker 4: what we typically see in a six to eight year

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Speaker 4: old boy. I'm the center of the universe. It's all

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Speaker 4: about me, all about me, me, me, Me. I want

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Speaker 4: constant acknowledgment. I can't handle my emotions if something goes wrong.

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Speaker 4: I have a temper tantrum. I want as much power

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Speaker 4: as possible. I'm going to live forever. I can never

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Speaker 4: be wrong, never wrong. And I want a mother. I

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Speaker 4: want a mother to be my sur to do everything

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Speaker 4: for me, to tell me how wonderful I am. To

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Speaker 4: just be on call twenty four to seven. Now, that's

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Speaker 4: fine in a six to eight year old. But if

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Speaker 4: you imagine a man like a global leader, or a

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Speaker 4: head of community or ahead of a family, who still

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Speaker 4: thinks he's the center of the universe, still thinks it's

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Speaker 4: all about himself, wants as much power as possible, can

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Speaker 4: never be wrong. When he doesn't get what he wants,

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Speaker 4: he has a temper tantrum and wants a mother instead

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Speaker 4: of a relationship. That's a major problem. And I can

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Speaker 4: think we live in a world that's run by boys.

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Speaker 3: I was about to say, isn't it great that all

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Speaker 3: of the men who run various countries in our woo

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Speaker 3: who have done isn't it wonderful that they've actually mature

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Speaker 3: from that voice?

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 4: We don't know, yeah, you know, it's but it's a

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Speaker 4: serious issue when those men can push buttons that change

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Speaker 4: the lives of hundreds of thousands or millions of people

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Speaker 4: or make decisions. You know, do we want those decisions

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Speaker 4: to be for the best of the people or for

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Speaker 4: the best of that person? And so healthy man psychology

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Speaker 4: is I'm not the center of the universe. I'm part

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Speaker 4: of a community, and power is not just for me.

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Speaker 4: Power is so I can do more good in my community.

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Speaker 4: And if something doesn't work, I don't have a temper tantrum.

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Speaker 4: That's actually domestic violence. I have to be able to

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Speaker 4: stand with my emotions. And I'm not going to live forever.

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Speaker 4: One day I'm going to die. And I'm not always right.

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Speaker 4: I make mistakes. When I do make mistakes, I have

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Speaker 4: to be accountable. And finally, I'm not looking for a mother.

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Speaker 4: I'm looking for genuine relationship. And when I give my talks,

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Speaker 4: which I do all around and around the world, and

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Speaker 4: I talk about this model, and I say to any

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Speaker 4: of the women in the audience, know any men who

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Speaker 4: still think that the center of the universe want power, acknowledgement,

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Speaker 4: can't stand their emotions, are never wrong, and want a mother.

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Speaker 4: And you see the women and they sort of think,

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Speaker 4: and they look at their husband and they look back.

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Speaker 3: And then there's this sort of this awkward shuffle.

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Speaker 4: And you know, we know exactly what I'm talking about here,

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Speaker 4: and it's actually not okay. And all the stuff we're

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Speaker 4: seeing in the Me Too movement and toxic masculinity and

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Speaker 4: the patriarchy, and that's all inappropriate boy behavior from men,

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Speaker 4: and it's just it's not okay. It's completely not okay.

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Speaker 4: And a big part of it is because we don't

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Speaker 4: have the rights or passage to create this shift from

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Speaker 4: boy to men.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So you can't start raising a teenager once it

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Speaker 3: becomes a teenager. I wish don't necessarily say that we

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Speaker 3: can still do some good right, it's never actually too late.

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Speaker 3: But we've got parents of boys from eight to eighteen

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Speaker 3: who are watching as many of them are actually watching

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Speaker 3: it with their boys. In the book, you've got quite

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Speaker 3: a lot in chapter five about how you can't start

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Speaker 3: raising a teenager once it becomes one. So we need

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Speaker 3: to we need to start pairing young boys the right

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Speaker 3: way to transition them effectively from that boy psychology into

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Speaker 3: what it is to be a man. Where do we start,

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Speaker 3: How does this place this happen? Because, by the way,

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Speaker 3: you're not sending eight year olds out for these rights

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Speaker 3: of passages opportunities as they're moving through with their adolescens.

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Speaker 4: Now, look, that's completely true, and ed's one of my saying,

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Speaker 4: you can't start raising, you know, teenage, you want to say,

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Speaker 4: become a teener. So it does come down to parenting.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things I've discovered, despite the fact

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Speaker 4: that my main interest has been right to passage, is

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Speaker 4: there is a parenting issue and many many parents feel

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Speaker 4: very lost and feel like they don't have a basic

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Speaker 4: sort of God book and they want to be the

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Speaker 4: best parents they can, but it's hard because they're so busy,

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Speaker 4: their children are so busy. There's so much technology available

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Speaker 4: every moment, and there's not a lot of I have

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Speaker 4: found a lot of great guidance. So even though I

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Speaker 4: do not want to be a parenting expert, I have

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Speaker 4: found myself drawn into that sort of area. And we

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Speaker 4: developed a model and I can give you the link

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Speaker 4: to send it up if that's okay. On the thing

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Speaker 4: great and we talk about seven strategies for building healthy

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Speaker 4: relationships with our sons. And the first and it's quite basic,

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Speaker 4: but our experience has been that parents love this knowledge.

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Speaker 4: And the first is finding something that you both enjoy doing. Together,

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Speaker 4: turning off your mobile phone and doing it regularly. And

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Speaker 4: this is for dads and mums. And it might be

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Speaker 4: walking the dog, it might be going fishing, it might

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Speaker 4: be listening to music, it might be having a cup

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Speaker 4: of tea in the day, whatever it is. But first

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Speaker 4: of all, if you're going to have a relationship with someone,

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Speaker 4: you have to have time with them. And extraordinarily I

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Speaker 4: find a lot of especially dads, just never have one

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Speaker 4: on one time with their children. That's the first one. I'll

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Speaker 4: just name a few of them. The second is practicing

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Speaker 4: acknowledging what they do well, so you know if you

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Speaker 4: see them do something well, or their gifts or whatever

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Speaker 4: you actually name it. It's very easy for parents just

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Speaker 4: to tell their kids what they're doing wrong. And once

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Speaker 4: again especially dads, but it is very good name of

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Speaker 4: things they do well. Teaching skills of reflection. So when

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Speaker 4: something happens, ask your child what they think about it first,

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Speaker 4: rather than just giving them the lesson and saying if

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Speaker 4: they have a problem, getting them they can come up

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Speaker 4: with a possible solution or some ideas and then working

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Speaker 4: with them on that. And then the last one I'll

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Speaker 4: mention is that when something goes wrong when they do

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Speaker 4: something wrong, which will happen at some stage, separating the

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Speaker 4: person from the behave. So you know, I still love you,

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Speaker 4: but you know burning down the house was not okay,

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Speaker 4: or you know, hitting hitting your sisters not okay. We've

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Speaker 4: got to talk about that, you know. Or if they

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Speaker 4: don't do well at school, rather than shaming them, saying, hey,

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Speaker 4: what's going on? You know, because one of the things

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Speaker 4: we know with boys is when they act out often

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Speaker 4: that actually means they've got a problem going on. So

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Speaker 4: their way of expressing the problem is actually acting out.

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Speaker 4: So those sorts of things, and we have like a

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Speaker 4: wheel where we have all those things and parents can

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Speaker 4: give themselves a mark out of ten in each of

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Speaker 4: those areas and then join the dots. And you know,

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Speaker 4: it's a simple thing. And the final one, actually I

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Speaker 4: will mention, is sharing stories about when you were their age,

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Speaker 4: including what went well and what didn't go well, and

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Speaker 4: those sorts of things. It's just about building up strong,

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Speaker 4: healthy relationship. Actually, there is one more which I do

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Speaker 4: need to mention, keep going, connecting privileges with responsibility. I

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Speaker 4: can't not name that because when we just give our

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Speaker 4: boys everything regardless of how they behave regardless of how

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Speaker 4: they are, and they become entitled. That's a problem. And

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Speaker 4: from quite an early age, yes, we give them things,

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Speaker 4: but if there's an agreement, like you know, you'll take

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Speaker 4: your dishes into the kitchen, or you'll tidy your room,

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Speaker 4: or you'll you know, be home when you say you're

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Speaker 4: going to be home, and the privileges come together with that,

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Speaker 4: that's a very important lesson because if we don't teach

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Speaker 4: it to young as teenagers, when they're you know, six

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Speaker 4: inches taller than us and big and strong and grumpy,

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Speaker 4: that's not the time to be trying to sort of

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Speaker 4: put in the boundaries. And unfortunately, I get a lot

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Speaker 4: of phone calls from parents who say, I don't know

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Speaker 4: what happened to my twelve thirteen year old son overnight.

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Speaker 4: They won't talk me, they won't cuddle me. They just

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Speaker 4: go in their room and lock the door, you know,

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Speaker 4: and there's a war going on in the house. So,

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Speaker 4: you know, I think there's a lot we can do

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Speaker 4: around our sort of early stage parenting.

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Speaker 3: Throughout those ideas that you've just shared. You've used dads

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Speaker 3: and the importance of his role multiple times. Can you

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Speaker 3: just talk a little bit about I mean, you've talked

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Speaker 3: about rights of passage and the elders, the men go away,

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Speaker 3: the elders spend time talking with the youngsters, and once

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Speaker 3: again you've brought you brought the dads in the male

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Speaker 3: role model. There's two parts to this question, and I'm

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Speaker 3: not supposed to ask two questions at once, but they

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Speaker 3: flow together. The first that can you just talk about

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Speaker 3: why dads are so important? But the follow up is

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Speaker 3: there's going to be a whole bunch of single mums

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Speaker 3: who are watching this. There's going to be a whole

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Speaker 3: lot of families where dad is either not safe or

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Speaker 3: not present, or for whatever reason, wants to be but

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Speaker 3: maybe even can't be. We want to give dads a

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Speaker 3: benefit of the doubt as often as we can as well.

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Speaker 3: What are parents do in that situation?

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Speaker 4: Okay, so yeah, thank you for bringing that up. Equally

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Speaker 4: important dads and mums, for sure. But the thing that

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Speaker 4: we often find is that mums are so much more present.

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Speaker 4: And these are generalizations, you know, very often the mums have,

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Speaker 4: you know, so much more to do, especially in the

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Speaker 4: early years with boys, and and we do have a

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Speaker 4: lot of single moms who are trying to be mum

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Speaker 4: and dad, which is very difficult. And one of our

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Speaker 4: big recommendations there is to bring for the mums, to

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Speaker 4: bring other men in, whether it's uncles, friends, grandfathers, are

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Speaker 4: brilliant to bring that influence in. And what I also

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Speaker 4: say to mums, there's a few really key things here,

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Speaker 4: which is, you know, not to put up with inappropriate

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Speaker 4: behavior from your boys. They've got to learn early that

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Speaker 4: swearing at you, trying to hit you, you know, any

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Speaker 4: of that stuff is just not okay, and they need

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Speaker 4: to learn that while they're with you in the house.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's a tricky one because you're right, something

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Speaker 4: like a third of boys are now being brought up

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Speaker 4: by single mums and not having contact with their fathers.

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Speaker 4: So anything we can do to support mums is really

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Speaker 4: important and I've actually got cap through about that in

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Speaker 4: my book. So and those same principles with the mums

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Speaker 4: are finding something you can do with your son one

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Speaker 4: on one, sharing stories, separating the person from the behavior.

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Speaker 4: All of those things are as important as well as

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Speaker 4: doing whatever you can to have good men in the life.

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Speaker 1: Of your boys.

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Speaker 4: And we look at it as a community thing, So

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Speaker 4: you know, I say, dads, whenever I work with them,

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Speaker 4: you know, keep an eye out not only on.

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Speaker 3: Your boy, but all the boy.

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Speaker 4: The ideas were sort of trying to create an umbrella

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Speaker 4: where the whole community is looking after all the children.

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Speaker 4: And that's part of our work that we do in

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Speaker 4: schools is trying to create community so that those who

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Speaker 4: are on their own actually do have support.

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Speaker 1: Hi. Everyone, Justin from Bridge Media. Again. You can hear

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Speaker 1: that whole conversation as well as our long discussions with

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Speaker 1: Peggy Orenstein, author of Boys and Sex, profess some Mark

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Speaker 1: Brackett from the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, Manbox researcher

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Speaker 1: Matt Tyler, and many many more in the Bringing Up

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Speaker 1: Boys Summit that's fifty percent off until March thirty first

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Speaker 1: at Happy Families dot com dot au and don't Forget

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Speaker 1: the Misconnection Summit also on sale at Happyfamilies dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au. We'll put those links in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by me Justin rule

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Speaker 1: On from Bridge Media and don't Forget. You can get

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Speaker 1: more information on improving your family's happiness at happy families

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00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,159
Speaker 1: dot com dot au